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  1. #1101
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
    I mean, while I was sarcastically exaggerating, I don't entirely disagree. There's a version of the game that could exist in a really cool way if they did it scorched earth. But that would effectively be a new game with how much things have changed since around Wrath. They'd need a bold expansion to do that, one that changes as much as Cataclysm and Legion combined.

    Do it one way or the other. Either make an uncompromising system where every choice matters and tune the highest content around it as such (right now, Blizzard tunes Mythic Raiding deliberately for players to pick the best options by their own admission) or allow the flexibility that exists now to carry into all systems.

    Covenant abilities as they are right now just don't mesh with WoW's present idea of class design. And it further contradicts Blizzard's own decision to make you more about "class" than "spec" this expansion by their own words. And even then, you'd still have Soulbinds being exclusive. I trust them to balance 12 passive trees. I do not trust them to balance 52 active abilities.
    That's what I've been saying this whole time. We need lots more permanent choices, covenants stick out like a sore thumb because it's the first one we're getting. If we had like 4-5 systems like that it would no longer be an issue because no sane person would have 50 alts of the same class just to get all possible combinations.

  2. #1102
    Warchief Sluvs's Avatar
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    IMO, the problem with covenants is that they decided to add the "choice matters" theme in a game where choice does not matter anymore.

    If this was added during WOTLK era, this discussion would not arise, at least not to this extent.

    Choice does not matter in WoW since MoP, maybe even earlier. So putting the convenant system, and making your choice suddenly matter, does not mesh well with the current game.
    I don't want solutions. I want to be mad. - PoorlyDrawnlines

  3. #1103
    Brewmaster Tiev's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sluvs View Post
    IMO, the problem with covenants is that they decided to add the "choice matters" theme in a game where choice does not matter anymore.

    If this was added during WOTLK era, this discussion would not arise, at least not to this extent.

    Choice does not matter in WoW since MoP, maybe even earlier. So putting the convenant system, and making your choice suddenly matter, does not mesh well with the current game.
    Of course choice matters! You can choose to be invited to raids or sit on the bench with your subpar covenant choice after a sudden nerf!

  4. #1104
    Quote Originally Posted by Echocho View Post
    That's what I've been saying this whole time. We need lots more permanent choices, covenants stick out like a sore thumb because it's the first one we're getting. If we had like 4-5 systems like that it would no longer be an issue because no sane person would have 50 alts of the same class just to get all possible combinations.
    Then they'd need to redo the entire damn game for it to work. Active abilities are too jarring of a shift, too quickly. Again, Primordial or Deathborne are two easy examples where what it does for 1 spec is absurdly different in function from another in terms of quality. Soulbinds are at least exclusive trees, but Conduits are Covenant-agnostic so it's not that terrible to have some passive abilities that aren't the same across all characters. Let's see if those work first.

    They should experiment first before they start flinging entire new class mechanics at the wall.

    The funny thing is, Torghast is a great example of a way to do it right. You don't get those same powers outside of Torghast, but every single class in Torghast plays uniquely, and some are absolutely bonkers-fun based on the things you can get away with. But since they're totally detached from instanced content that's tuned very significantly for being able to meet certain scripted criteria, you can get away with it. And it means that it has value because your experience is totally different across 12 classes rather than it being what the game is in dungeons and raids sometimes - which is that you're just playing 12 flavors of similar tools.
    Last edited by Vakir; 2020-07-15 at 04:56 AM.

  5. #1105
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiev View Post
    Of course choice matters! You can choose to be invited to raids or sit on the bench with your subpar covenant choice after a sudden nerf!
    Or change a guild to the one who values players that are capable of performing rotation, doing mechanics and not dying while enjoying faster progression that method-wannabees. Yep, choice matters, and it starts with class because that is far more important than covenants.

  6. #1106
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Or change a guild to the one who values players that are capable of performing rotation, doing mechanics and not dying while enjoying faster progression that method-wannabees. Yep, choice matters, and it starts with class because that is far more important than covenants.
    You are permitted to do this. Why enforce it on others?

  7. #1107
    Quote Originally Posted by Sluvs View Post
    IMO, the problem with covenants is that they decided to add the "choice matters" theme in a game where choice does not matter anymore.

    If this was added during WOTLK era, this discussion would not arise, at least not to this extent.

    Choice does not matter in WoW since MoP, maybe even earlier. So putting the convenant system, and making your choice suddenly matter, does not mesh well with the current game.
    Choices never really mattered... people point to tbc rep factions but anything they had you ditched in kara once they rebalanced the loot.

    The biggest gate for talents has been a hour of farming gold in vanilla if you hit the 50g cap.

  8. #1108
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
    You are permitted to do this. Why enforce it on others?
    Enforce to what? You are free to play with anyone you want. Just don't complain if you want to stick with bad/toxic people that blame their gear for their lack of skills.

  9. #1109
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Enforce to what? You are free to play with anyone you want. Just don't complain if you want to stick with bad/toxic people that blame their gear for their lack of skills.
    High end content is literally tuned around making the most mathematically optimal choices. This is both confirmed by Blizzard and continues to be their M.O. for bleeding edge content, but sometimes even just below that.

    This isn't an issue of "Method wannabes," it's literally how the game functions. And even then, if you wanna PUG, all the same issues. If you feel shitty about underperforming as a personal issue, all the same, but you're still stuck if you don't like the aesthetic, story, or flavor of the Covenant you chose that is "optimal."

    Decoupling player power from choice fixes all of these issues. It does nothing to harm YOUR enjoyment. It does plenty to affect people who aren't you.

  10. #1110
    Quote Originally Posted by DemonDays View Post
    Wanna do Mythic+? Pick this Covenant or be severely disadvantaged in fun and performance.

    Wanna do PvP? Pick this Covenant or be severely disadvantaged in fun and performance.

    Wanna do well in the cleave heavy Raid? Pick this Covenant or be severely disadvantaged in fun and performance.

    Wanna do well in the single target heavy Raid? Pick this Covenant or be severely disadvantaged in fun and performance.

    This isn't wrong at all. You'd know this if you push content. Trust me.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
    High end content is literally tuned around making the most mathematically optimal choices. This is both confirmed by Blizzard and continues to be their M.O. for bleeding edge content, but sometimes even just below that.

    This isn't an issue of "Method wannabes," it's literally how the game functions. And even then, if you wanna PUG, all the same issues. If you feel shitty about underperforming as a personal issue, all the same, but you're still stuck if you don't like the aesthetic, story, or flavor of the Covenant you chose that is "optimal."

    Decoupling player power from choice fixes all of these issues. It does nothing to harm YOUR enjoyment. It does plenty to affect people who aren't you.
    As someone that loves M+ key pushing this is correct. It's not just for "Method". LFG is brutal. Even guild runs are separated by those that are optimized and those that just play the game. I know many think "My guild lets me do M+ with them regardless". This is true. What you don't realize is that your guild probably has teams you don't even know about pushing higher keys that you are never invited to.

  11. #1111
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    No it wasnt. You are right they should so be glad they are not. Becouse it would definitly make game better for me if our character builds would be pernament so I feels unique. I tell you that talent swaping is terrible and makes game worse. They mostly implement some sort of way to swap under pressure of feedback from players who's playstyle I don't like. Problem is what players who's playstyle I don't like consider good is in most cases actualy bad for me. Swapable covenats wont make game better for me. It will make game more acessible for everyone but less fun for me = worse game for me.
    Sorry, but there were some critical spelling errors in your post. I've corrected them.

  12. #1112
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    Lol what? Making them switachble would completly ruin experience of choosing covenant. People want their choices to have impact and be meaingfull not just another ***** to min max and swap around when skill A will be best choice. Thats so boring and antirpg. There is only 1 problem. Playerbase is that problem. There is good chuck of players what plays wow with wrong mindset. WoW is supostu be MMORPG game yet there is this entilted playerbase what want play WoW ARPG dungeoon/raid simulator where all we do is solving math to pick best thing. Maybe its time for you to go play some other game.
    Tbh you sound more like you are in the wrong mindset. Telling people how to play the game and how they are supposed to have fun.
    WoW has always been about optimzing you character too. Since vanilla. Back then we just did not know how.

    And if the ability is the only reason the covenants are a meaningful choice than there was non to begin with. The immersion mainly comes from hte story and your investment in it. Not if someone uses an ability in a dungeon you are not even in.

    You can RP the hell out of the Covenant. RP that there are non of the abilities in game for all i care but don't tell me what i am supposed to have fun at.

    Also: WoW will never become an ARPG. Complete system is different.
    Take a step back an evaluate why YOU play the game

  13. #1113
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunslayer View Post
    As someone that loves M+ key pushing this is correct. It's not just for "Method". LFG is brutal. Even guild runs are separated by those that are optimized and those that just play the game. I know many think "My guild lets me do M+ with them regardless". This is true. What you don't realize is that your guild probably has teams you don't even know about pushing higher keys that you are never invited to.
    This is so true it hurts my soul. Players focused on optimization and pushing content to congregate together. I promise you that if your guild has content pushing focused people on it, they are running with their own groups on a different Discord and not telling you about it so that you don't get your feelings hurt. I have been on both ends of this.

  14. #1114
    Nothing is forced here keep reaching.

  15. #1115
    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    And if the ability is the only reason the covenants are a meaningful choice than there was non to begin with. The immersion mainly comes from hte story and your investment in it. Not if someone uses an ability in a dungeon you are not even in.
    Thank god you're not in charge of defining immersion, you're terrible at it.

  16. #1116
    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post

    The immersion mainly comes from hte story and your investment in it.
    It's funny you say this, because my ability choices don't offer me any immersion at all yet I often get very immersed in the game. The immersion is literally your connection to your character and the world itself, not the systems that you navigate. I get immersed in WoW in all content at all levels despite enjoying the higher end more than any other function of the game. I can do this because my connection is to the game world and my character and not whatever arbitrary systems they are attaching to it. The idea that not having Covenants be a permanent choice somehow breaks immersion is ridiculous. It's a total cop out. The truth is, these players want the higher end players to suffer because they envy them. Making the systems more accessible does not hurt anyone or stop anyone from playing the way they want to play. Keeping them as is actually does that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Echocho View Post
    Thank god you're not in charge of defining immersion, you're terrible at it.
    If you can't immerse yourself because some player in a Mythic raid is Venthyr and used the Kyrian ability (that you did not even see) then there is something wrong with you. What, just the knowledge that there could be players out there using abilities that don't match their Covenant suddenly breaks your immersion? The very thought of a player that you will never meet or see doing something that you will never witness somehow detracts from your experience? Is this what you are implying?

  17. #1117
    Elemental Lord Kithelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by klogaroth View Post
    snip
    Except you aren't locked into a combat ability, you can change it just isn't handed to you...

    I guess you've only played one RPG...because that is exactly where it comes from, I haven't played a single RPG that lets you change things willy nilly and you obviously don't have many under your belt if you don't know that,

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiev View Post
    Of course choice matters! You can choose to be invited to raids or sit on the bench with your subpar covenant choice after a sudden nerf!
    Yup...because everyone is a mythic record chaser where every little bit of DPS absolutely matters

    If your raid is teetering on a single ability you either aren't that good or your raid isn't that good

    Probably both...
    #WithoutRespectWeReject

  18. #1118
    Quote Originally Posted by Echocho View Post
    Thank god you're not in charge of defining immersion, you're terrible at it.
    Well the person i was responding to said becuase someone somewhere was using an ability in a different color breaks his immersion.

    And i don't see how that should be? Immersion in WoW mostly comes from singel player content.
    The moment people are seeing other people on a normal realm ther will be people on giant ass demons riding around clipping into each other hell hounds litteral undead horses flying monstrosities and whatnot. The covenant immersion comes from what it gives to you personally. Maybe some instanced content you run for the first time. If you choose to keep the ability fine. But what does it change for your immersion if i choose, say, Kyrian covenant, with the ability from nightfey? Nothing. Because we only communicate in content where the is no immersion.
    If you want it to be there to you would have to join a RP server.

  19. #1119
    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    Except you aren't locked into a combat ability, you can change it just isn't handed to you...

    I guess you've only played one RPG...because that is exactly where it comes from, I haven't played a single RPG that lets you change things willy nilly and you obviously don't have many under your belt if you don't know that,

    - - - Updated - - -



    Yup...because everyone is a mythic record chaser where every little bit of DPS absolutely matters

    If your raid is teetering on a single ability you either aren't that good or your raid isn't that good

    Probably both...
    Unless you can show us some parses, it is rich saying that coming from probably someone who is a LFR warrior.

  20. #1120
    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    Except you aren't locked into a combat ability, you can change it just isn't handed to you...

    I guess you've only played one RPG...because that is exactly where it comes from, I haven't played a single RPG that lets you change things willy nilly and you obviously don't have many under your belt if you don't know that,
    I've played plenty thanks. Which is why I know that the system is much better suited to a single player game than an MMO. Also you've not played Diablo 3 where you can switch abilities really easily? Or D:OS2 where you can respec at will? Or FFXIV where changing to a new class is as simple as switching your weapon? Or Witcher 3, where you can use a respec potion? You've missed some big games.

    In terms of combat - you are practically locked into the ability. If someone asks you if you want to do M+ and your reply is that you'll be ready in 2 weeks, that's locked.
    Last edited by klogaroth; 2020-07-15 at 07:23 AM.

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