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  1. #1141
    Quote Originally Posted by Yuujin View Post
    You mean the majority of the playerbase? Why keep them happy.
    They just need to add more WQs and more worthless activities like warfront and islands expeditions to keep them happy.

  2. #1142
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    For those that want meaningful decisions, do they switch talents or specs ?
    This is just the equivalent of yet you participate in society. Not every choice has to be meaningful. Obviously that change took away a big set of meaningful choice. I'd rather have it be the way it but with an escalating cost, so that you don't just change on the fly. But just because one likes meaningful choice doesn't mean they all need to be.

  3. #1143
    Quote Originally Posted by SirBeef View Post
    This is just the equivalent of yet you participate in society. Not every choice has to be meaningful. Obviously that change took away a big set of meaningful choice. I'd rather have it be the way it but with an escalating cost, so that you don't just change on the fly. But just because one likes meaningful choice doesn't mean they all need to be.
    You can just say the people who enjoy the idea never change talents and essences anyways. No need to try and whataboutism it.

  4. #1144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    They just need to add more WQs and more worthless activities like warfront and islands expeditions to keep them happy.
    I bet you’d find a lot of players who disliked Warfronts and Islands, and that might have a lot to do with why BfA was barren for long periods of time. Being casual does not mean you’re ok with bad gameplay.
    "Can't you see this is the last act of a desperate man?"
    "We don't care if it's the last act of Henry the Fifth, we're leaving!"

  5. #1145
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    It was a hour of farming less if you played the ah...
    Epic mount in 20 hours, yeah that doesn't sound made up at all.

  6. #1146
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Or change a guild to the one who values players that are capable of performing rotation, doing mechanics and not dying while enjoying faster progression that method-wannabees. Yep, choice matters, and it starts with class because that is far more important than covenants.
    Oh, and what do you do when you are in a guild of longtime friends that you like to play with, shoot for high progression, and it ends up with you and someone else playing a subpar class (say a ret paladin, that is consistently one of the worst specs to bring to a raid), and both you and your friend can play really well, but venthyr covenant movement utility is vital for an endboss, but your bastion steward isn't.

    Do you quit the guild? Do you stay and miss out on progression and the first kill? The whole situation isn't just a simple black and white scenario. Maybe think things through before talking.

  7. #1147
    Quote Originally Posted by Echocho View Post
    Epic mount in 20 hours, yeah that doesn't sound made up at all.
    I mean I bought mine at level cap... there are hundreds of guides right now on youtube to make 50-100g a hour. Hell even farming in felwood accomplishes that.

  8. #1148
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
    High end content is literally tuned around making the most mathematically optimal choices. This is both confirmed by Blizzard and continues to be their M.O. for bleeding edge content, but sometimes even just below that.
    Which is fine, but game shouldn't be catered to high end players. Nor should be designed around top 0.1% players in mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
    This isn't an issue of "Method wannabes," it's literally how the game functions. And even then, if you wanna PUG, all the same issues. If you feel shitty about underperforming as a personal issue, all the same, but you're still stuck if you don't like the aesthetic, story, or flavor of the Covenant you chose that is "optimal."

    Decoupling player power from choice fixes all of these issues. It does nothing to harm YOUR enjoyment. It does plenty to affect people who aren't you.
    Of course it is. I could do a lot more dps by scumbagging - hence WCL has began to cut down trash dps on nzoth and other bosses where you can scumbag.

    If you feel bad about "underperforming" while doing proper mechanics and not dying then maybe you just aren't as good as you thought you would be?
    And underperforming compared to what?
    Other classes? That is going to be unbalanced as it has been in all wow expansions
    Other players in raid? That is situational and also depends on role, what you have to do and luck.
    Top parses? Git good.

    Only bad players blame their dps on gear.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Soluna View Post
    Oh, and what do you do when you are in a guild of longtime friends that you like to play with, shoot for high progression, and it ends up with you and someone else playing a subpar class (say a ret paladin, that is consistently one of the worst specs to bring to a raid), and both you and your friend can play really well, but venthyr covenant movement utility is vital for an endboss, but your bastion steward isn't.

    Do you quit the guild? Do you stay and miss out on progression and the first kill? The whole situation isn't just a simple black and white scenario. Maybe think things through before talking.
    Again, nothing is vital. Raid bosses won't be designed around covenant abilities in mind. IF you are good, you will be able to handle it. I thought about it longer than you.

    So let me reverse question. Now guilds are doing mythic nzoth with 10 immunity classes, you happen to play the one that doesn't have immunity. Does that mean they would bench you even if you perform top notch and always do mechanics properly? No, and if they do, they are crippling their progress to get one guy that has immunity but is measurably worse than you.

  9. #1149
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Which is fine, but game shouldn't be catered to high end players. Nor should be designed around top 0.1% players in mind.



    Of course it is. I could do a lot more dps by scumbagging - hence WCL has began to cut down trash dps on nzoth and other bosses where you can scumbag.

    If you feel bad about "underperforming" while doing proper mechanics and not dying then maybe you just aren't as good as you thought you would be?
    And underperforming compared to what?
    Other classes? That is going to be unbalanced as it has been in all wow expansions
    Other players in raid? That is situational and also depends on role, what you have to do and luck.
    Top parses? Git good.

    Only bad players blame their dps on gear.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Again, nothing is vital. Raid bosses won't be designed around covenant abilities in mind. IF you are good, you will be able to handle it. I thought about it longer than you.

    So let me reverse question. Now guilds are doing mythic nzoth with 10 immunity classes, you happen to play the one that doesn't have immunity. Does that mean they would bench you even if you perform top notch and always do mechanics properly? No, and if they do, they are crippling their progress to get one guy that has immunity but is measurably worse than you.
    It isn't the 1% .

    As early as normals pugs deny non optimal specs. This notion that wow doesn't thrive on conformity baffles me.

    At no point except maybe very,very early on in vanilla did this free spirit mentality exist.

    Your gonna google your BiS covenant and soulbinds and that will be that. I'm tired of pretending this isnt going to be the case for the massive majority of players.

    I want proof that raid bosses will not be designed around covenants being BiS per spec. FFS n'zoth was balanced around having almost full BiS corruption to the point you had to spend tens of millions of gold to even compete in the top 50.

  10. #1150
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    It isn't the 1% .

    As early as normals pugs deny non optimal specs. This notion that wow doesn't thrive on conformity baffles me.

    At no point except maybe very,very early on in vanilla did this free spirit mentality exist.

    Your gonna google your BiS covenant and soulbinds and that will be that. I'm tired of pretending this isnt going to be the case for the massive majority of players.

    I want proof that raid bosses will not be designed around covenants being BiS per spec. FFS n'zoth was balanced around having almost full BiS corruption to the point you had to spend tens of millions of gold to even compete in the top 50.
    It is the 1%, or less than that really but it's easier to type 1%. So you're wrong, sorry.

  11. #1151
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    It isn't the 1% .

    As early as normals pugs deny non optimal specs. This notion that wow doesn't thrive on conformity baffles me.

    At no point except maybe very,very early on in vanilla did this free spirit mentality exist.

    Your gonna google your BiS covenant and soulbinds and that will be that. I'm tired of pretending this isnt going to be the case for the massive majority of players.

    I want proof that raid bosses will not be designed around covenants being BiS per spec. FFS n'zoth was balanced around having almost full BiS corruption to the point you had to spend tens of millions of gold to even compete in the top 50.
    It is less than 1%. Technically, the only ones that it will truly matter is less than 0.1%.

    I had no issues getting +20 in time with complete pug previous season as totally off meta demo lock.

    And nzoth wasn't balanced around almost full bis corruptions since top guilds downed him in some super garbage gear and mediocre corruptions.
    BiS corruption is like available only recently. You have no clue what are you talking about.

  12. #1152
    Quote Originally Posted by SirBeef View Post
    This is just the equivalent of yet you participate in society. Not every choice has to be meaningful. Obviously that change took away a big set of meaningful choice. I'd rather have it be the way it but with an escalating cost, so that you don't just change on the fly. But just because one likes meaningful choice doesn't mean they all need to be.
    a) You post implies that "meaningful choics" is not really that important.
    b) It automatically raises the question: why specifically covenant abilities should be that meaningful choice?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    It is less than 1%. Technically, the only ones that it will truly matter is less than 0.1%.
    Actually, if you try to think about it for more than a minute you will realize two facts:
    1) Balance does not really matter for top 1% (or top 0.1%). Why? Because on one hand they will always play what's best no matter how time-consuming it is. And on the other hand they have skill to compensate for balance deficiencies.
    2) Balance matters for much wider "middle-of-the-pack" audience. Because on one hand they don't have time or patience for time-consuming activities. And on the other hand they don't have the skill to compensate for playing non-optimal setups.

    It's not some kind of "elitist" or "try-hard" attitude, it's normal human behavior. If you can't jump over the wall you don't go to athletics trainer, you bring ladder. If riding a taxi or public transport costs the same you chose taxi. If you need power socket fixed you get electrician not a plumber.

  13. #1153
    I just hope that the choices will be fairly equal or so diverse that they can all be useful in come places and hence it doesn't really matter what you pick.

    I've dabbled a bit in mythic raiding but for the most part of the game since vanilla I've raided mid or low-tier. I've been a lot of "shit" guild, done a lot of pugging and so on and trickle-down elitism really, really is a thing.

    It didn't used to be as bad but I've felt a steady increase since about Legion. Even in guild that can only dream of clearing half the raid on mythic before the tier ends you have a hard time to get recruited without top logs and optimal specs. In pugs it's hard to get in without an ilvl that basically means you have no business still running that content anyway. I'm not saying it's like this 100% of the time, but it sure as hell is more common.

    Worst to me seems to be the really low end mythic guilds, top 5k+ that probably won't get CE. Their demands on recruits are like on par with top 100 guilds, it's stupid.

    In my experience there used to be more room in a guild to evolve and get better with time, mold your members into better players as a team, now it's just replace with someone with higher ilvl or better logs.

  14. #1154
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Which is fine, but game shouldn't be catered to high end players. Nor should be designed around top 0.1% players in mind.
    It is, though. They've confirmed that tuning - TUNING, not catering - at high levels is based around maximized efficiency. Look up a few interviews about Mythic raiding. It's reality. I'm not saying that the high end players matter more or their money/tokens are more valuable or that every game decision needs to be built around them. I'm saying that the content is designed with intent to be tuned around players picking the "best" options. Blizzard knows how their meta works and will work. Ion Hazzikostas raided with EJ for fucking years and still does. They're not fucking stupid, they're malicious. More on that below.

    If you feel bad about "underperforming" while doing proper mechanics and not dying then maybe you just aren't as good as you thought you would be?
    And underperforming compared to what?
    Other classes? That is going to be unbalanced as it has been in all wow expansions
    Other players in raid? That is situational and also depends on role, what you have to do and luck.
    Top parses? Git good.
    If you can do more, you are underperforming. Even if you're great. Even top parses for certain classes are doing less than middling parses for other classes. You're conflating "underperforming" with someone who is legitimately not performing well, and that's just not true.

    Only bad players blame their dps on gear.
    Ignoring that gear upgrades are exponential...for the most part, I agree. That's why we're not talking about gear. We're talking about core abilities, which are a totally different thing. Glad we clarified that again for ya.

    Again, nothing is vital. Raid bosses won't be designed around covenant abilities in mind. IF you are good, you will be able to handle it. I thought about it longer than you.
    Trusting anything Blizzard does in terms of their overall design philosophy insofar as trusting their ability to balance these things correctly is perhaps the biggest "Sure, Jan..." imaginable.

    Blizzard knows that generally high end raiders will log on, raid, and log off and lose interest if they can tackle challenges too quickly. This is why for that high end group, they deliberately tune things to extend it longer for the whales, and in this case, that means designing this deliberately - to fuck around with both numbers to make people swap late into the tier, and to make people feel compelled to grind for extra Conduits. This is knowing full well this will be what happens. This is also knowing that players will either be happy as pigs in shit playing what's weak while being LFR heroes or will probably play the meta regardless of whether they need to and still feel stifled.

    Then comes 9.1.5 or whenever where they "learn" from the experience and tweak it, just in time for people to be interested in playing around with abilities they should have had access to from the beginning.

    If it wasn't for attunements artificially inflating game time and Blizzard being marginally less corporate back in 2007, these insipid cunts would've probably locked new class abilities in TBC behind Aldors/Scryers picks. Because choice, you guys!

    So let me reverse question. Now guilds are doing mythic nzoth with 10 immunity classes, you happen to play the one that doesn't have immunity. Does that mean they would bench you even if you perform top notch and always do mechanics properly? No, and if they do, they are crippling their progress to get one guy that has immunity but is measurably worse than you.
    Not directed at me, but still a really silly question. What about immunity classes that perform equally well? Well then you're just shit out of luck, aren't you? You're operating under the assumption that having these advantages means some kind of disadvantage in play, but they don't. Many classes with immunities are flat out fucking rockstars even relative to ones that don't. You're assuming that players with better tools won't also play as well as ones that don't. And you're assuming that someone is "bad" even if they're doing...literally the best they can but still are playing a less attractive tool kit.

    So if we apply that logic to Covenant abilities, someone that has the vastly superior Door of Shadows or even Soulshape is going to kick the shit out of someone who picked their stupid owl potion if they perform equally, at least in most settings. The only way to fix that is to vastly undertune every single Venthyr and Night Fae class ability to compensate for the signature ones being better...or homogenize the shit out of what could be interesting abilities to "balance" them. To the point where you might as well not have choices.

    But you still didn't answer a very basic question: Who does it HARM to allow these abilities to be swappable? And no, Little Timmy having a sad for 3 seconds because his blue fairy Death and Decay isn't 100% special to his bark-plate set is not actually an issue, because Little Timmy is going to enjoy himself immediately after when the next Pet Dungeon comes out or something.

    They have 50 other kinds of keys they can jingle in the face of the playerbase to make Covenants distinct without wasting everyone's fucking time.

    https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...ovenant/553508

    Look at the poll results, read the conversation going on, and look at how heavily liked and co-signed posts that are heavily against this shit are.

    "But the forums don't reflect the entire---"

    Yeah, I fucking know. But if you aren't vocal enough to give feedback, you aren't passionate enough for the change to negatively impact you anyway.
    Last edited by Vakir; 2020-07-16 at 10:06 AM.

  15. #1155
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post


    Again, nothing is vital. Raid bosses won't be designed around covenant abilities in mind. IF you are good, you will be able to handle it. I thought about it longer than you.

    So let me reverse question. Now guilds are doing mythic nzoth with 10 immunity classes, you happen to play the one that doesn't have immunity. Does that mean they would bench you even if you perform top notch and always do mechanics properly? No, and if they do, they are crippling their progress to get one guy that has immunity but is measurably worse than you.
    No you thought shit longer than me mate. The amount of bs in your post is straight up staggering. It doesn't matter if raid bosses won't be designed around covenant abilities, everyone who raids mythic (with a few exceptions), needs the best setup possible. Why?

    Because top 100-200 raiders will strive to do the best they can stay competitive and get as early rankings as possible. It's not about the boss being impossible, it's about the fight becoming infinitely easier sometimes with the right setup. Did we need 4 warlocks on G'huun mythic? No we didn't when we killed him with my guild, did it make it infinitely easier with 4 portals instead of 3? Even though our 4rth warlock was shit dps wise? Damn right it did. Did it earn him a spot over our ret paladin who had nothing to offer for the fight? Absolutely.

    If you fail to understand this, you are a small boy, who is trying to tell everyone to git gud, but lacks the mental capacity to understand how the damn community works. And for guilds who barely get cutting edge, the optimal classes/builds/etc, are a way to help them achieve eventually the kills. No sane man will try to progress cutting edge and not go for optimal build. I think it's you who needs to git gud because it seems like you've never even played the damn game.

    Also your 'reverse question' is subject to the same flaw - If you have 21 raiders, 10 of which are key members (like 4 healers, 2 tanks, and 4 dps who are super good), and then you have ELEVEN more raiders, who all play immunity classes aside from that one enhancement shaman who is an extremely good player (always parses 90-95+ on mythic), is always there, consistent with mechanics, etc, and the 10 ppl who play immunity classes are all extremely good also, but play classes that are far stronger (fire mages, bm hunters) and can do much more dmg, while soaking with an immunity. What do you do then? Do you bring the shaman? Why? The immunities will make the fight a lot easier. The shaman is losing out on progression.

    In shadowlands, this will happen with covenant abilities sometimes (like the venthyr teleport), and why the fuck something that should be an aesthetic choice for the most part, and something that was made to be fun, has to put you in such a spot? If you fail to understand all this, we are done discussing I think.

  16. #1156
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    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    Well the person i was responding to said becuase someone somewhere was using an ability in a different color breaks his immersion.

    And i don't see how that should be? Immersion in WoW mostly comes from singel player content.
    The moment people are seeing other people on a normal realm ther will be people on giant ass demons riding around clipping into each other hell hounds litteral undead horses flying monstrosities and whatnot. The covenant immersion comes from what it gives to you personally. Maybe some instanced content you run for the first time. If you choose to keep the ability fine. But what does it change for your immersion if i choose, say, Kyrian covenant, with the ability from nightfey? Nothing. Because we only communicate in content where the is no immersion.
    If you want it to be there to you would have to join a RP server.
    Man, the MUH IMMURZION crowd is in for a rough ride with SL. Kyrian DKs? Necrolord pallies? Venthyr holy priests? I can't wait lmao.
    Quote Originally Posted by Danuser
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    BFA was about as nuanced as a golf club to the testicles/ovaries.

  17. #1157
    Quote Originally Posted by Yuujin View Post
    You mean the majority of the playerbase? Why keep them happy.
    I doubt that. I'd say the majority raid normal. If raided normal you'd see it's really close to lfr. Most people are in guilds.and if you're in a guild you can do normal easily. I'd hope that "majority" of human beings would have more competitive nature than settle for lfr as their WoW Everest.

  18. #1158
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
    It is, though. They've confirmed that tuning - TUNING, not catering - at high levels is based around maximized efficiency.
    It is, they didn't touch echoing void until first world race has been done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
    If you can do more, you are underperforming. Even if you're great.
    Gear is your hard limit, if you are underperforming considering your gear then you are bad, as simple as that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
    Trusting anything Blizzard does in terms of their overall design philosophy insofar as trusting their ability to balance these things correctly is perhaps the biggest "Sure, Jan..." imaginable.
    And why you wouldn't? Balancing is different issue, dont try to argument your designing fights with issues with balance lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
    Not directed at me, but still a really silly question. What about immunity classes that perform equally well? Well then you're just shit out of luck, aren't you? You're operating under the assumption that having these advantages means some kind of disadvantage in play
    Thing is, you don't have equally skilled players in real environment except maybe top 50 guilds.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Soluna View Post
    No you thought shit longer than me mate. The amount of bs in your post is straight up staggering. It doesn't matter if raid bosses won't be designed around covenant abilities, everyone who raids mythic (with a few exceptions), needs the best setup possible. Why? .
    No. This is bullshit. You need not best setup (which is like irrelevant for most bosses). You need steady players that also can perform mechanics perfectly, learn quickly and do good dps. Setup is maybe 4th variable in importance. You simply have no clue.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by LorDC View Post
    Actually, if you try to think about it for more than a minute you will realize two facts:
    1) Balance does not really matter for top 1% (or top 0.1%). Why? Because on one hand they will always play what's best no matter how time-consuming it is. And on the other hand they have skill to compensate for balance deficiencies.
    2) Balance matters for much wider "middle-of-the-pack" audience. Because on one hand they don't have time or patience for time-consuming activities. And on the other hand they don't have the skill to compensate for playing non-optimal setups.

    It's not some kind of "elitist" or "try-hard" attitude, it's normal human behavior. If you can't jump over the wall you don't go to athletics trainer, you bring ladder. If riding a taxi or public transport costs the same you chose taxi. If you need power socket fixed you get electrician not a plumber.
    If you think even more than a minute you will realize that:

    1) And this is why you are wrong, method said they lost CoS because they forced their players to play with alts. Just to have "best setup".
    2) Balance does not matter for medium audience because by the time they get to meaningful bosses, they already vastly overgear those bosses.

    Its not normal human behavior, it's elitists wannabee attitude because there are tons of players, playing with suboptimal specs that killed mythic nzoth faster than you and me while playing the same or even lower amount of time.

  19. #1159
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    It is, they didn't touch echoing void until first world race has been done.
    By then, they'd already had those same guilds bust out hundreds of millions of gold, with some possibly feeling compelled to pay via tokens. You're telling me Blizzard didn't know how much of a huge impact these would have when they put out the system, despite all the warnings? Hell no. They knew. It financially benefited them, not to mention the scumming of taking as long as they did to implement Echoes. These QOL changes are things that should've been in since the inception. Same with Residuum, Wakening Essence, etc.

    Gear is your hard limit, if you are underperforming considering your gear then you are bad, as simple as that.
    I'm talking about class issues. Equally geared individuals of different classes or specializations can still "underperform" by not playing the best option. That is what we're talking about here. Having 52 major abilities like that is effectively adding significant sub-classes. Or I guess sub-talents if you prefer.

    And why you wouldn't? Balancing is different issue, dont try to argument your designing fights with issues with balance lol.
    It's reality of how the abilities are going to function. Let's keep it to the signature abilities for simplicity's sake. For something like Fleshcraft to matter as much as the two mobility options, they need to design a fight in mind with damage being severe enough to require having an extra shield. For something like Phial of Serenity, you'd need debuffs that are severe enough where a clear of it via your potion once an encounter would be enough of a benefit than just wait through a dispel cooldown.

    But for the encounters to work, that would mean everyone would need to take those two. Other than that, they're irrelevant by comparison on Fleshcraft's end, because generally make-or-break damage like that is either avoidable or requires something like an immunity. Same with debuffs that are able to be cleared. If it's variable that ~25% of the player base will have these abilities, they can't design fights to have them or else they wouldn't work.

    Meanwhile, Door of Shadows and Soulshape need not be required, but they are always good.

    This is, again, ignoring problems that exist outside of top tier content that are problems for all players. You pick Primordial Wave. You can cleave a second Lava Burst, effectively, which is awesome. Then you swap to Enhancement, and it cleaves a Lightning Bolt, which is effectively not anywhere near the same impact. Deathborne? You're Arcane. Having Arcane Blast hit other targets is a huge, huuuuge boost vs. the same thing happening with Frostbolt or Fireball. But modern class design under Blizzard is that you are a Class, not a Specialization. So you're effectively extending Covenant choices to benefit certain specializations that are not equal across specs. That kinda sucks.

    PvP vs. PvE is an issue. Tank vs. DPS is an issue, as only some of the Covenant abilities have functions that help with active mitigation or defense. I don't need to go on, do I?

    Thing is, you don't have equally skilled players in real environment except maybe top 50 guilds.
    We're talking anecdotally. On a theoretical level, if two players are effectively even at executing mechanics and are doing equal amounts of damage in terms of executing their rotation, the one with the better choice-based toolkit is more valuable. Whether that is 1% or 10%. For most guilds, sure, this won't matter - but, well, read above. There's other problems for Covenant abilities beyond that, and there's fundamental clashes against WoW's modern design.

    Still waiting for the answer, BTW. Who does swapping Covenant abilities harm? What are the negatives? Are you implying that Covenant choices only matter insofar as the abilities? If so, you're taking a big shit on a system Blizzard seems to have a lot of pride in.

  20. #1160
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
    By then, they'd already had those same guilds bust out hundreds of millions of gold, with some possibly feeling compelled to pay via tokens. You're telling me Blizzard didn't know how much of a huge impact these would have when they put out the system, despite all the warnings? Hell no. They knew. It financially benefited them, not to mention the scumming of taking as long as they did to implement Echoes. These QOL changes are things that should've been in since the inception. Same with Residuum, Wakening Essence, etc.
    Oh please stop with bullshit. Top 10 guilds have been paying real money to people who wrote addons/dbm modules for them for years, P2W! Hell even I did a service like that for gold.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
    I'm talking about class issues. Equally geared individuals of different classes or specializations can still "underperform" by not playing the best option. That is what we're talking about here. Having 52 major abilities like that is effectively adding significant sub-classes. Or I guess sub-talents if you prefer.
    Again, this is not a problem for vast majority. If someone wants to go full "optimal" route, let them. Also let others pick whatever they like. Their skill will be a problem way before gear or choices will be.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
    It's reality of how the abilities are going to function.
    Dude, face reality, if blizzard added another talent row people would still argue and shit on it because "only one is best" so there is no "choice". It's a problem with community, not a blizzard, even if there would be like 0.5% difference between those.

    And only permanent solution to shutting up community is rotation of which covenant is best each week while making it hard to swap.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
    We're talking anecdotally. On a theoretical level, if two players are effectively even at executing mechanics and are doing equal amounts of damage in terms of executing their rotation,
    Which just doesn't happen. And even if, there is a difference between player ability to perform mechanics and not die which is far more important for progress.
    The only group of players that dps matters is maybe top 10 or 50 guilds.

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