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  1. #121
    bullshit post.
    I started a second account weeks ago. Zero achievements, zero gear. Levelled three chars and geared one to 474, only doing pugs for ALL of the content.
    EVERYTHING is possible, but don't expect a 475+ group to carry people without achievement...you have to put in some work. Finding pugs doing at least the first 3
    bosses in mythic is piss easy too, even more bosses are possible. There also are a fkton of communities for undergeared people, there are grps running raids for beginners
    or to help people get curve etc etc.
    Also it gets WAY easier if you look for a guild and make internet friends. But who cares about social aspects in a MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER game right?

    Also, while I agree the grind for corruptions is tedious, you DO NOT need them for shit like hc raids or the beginning of mythic. (Arena is a different thing).
    People always act like if the do not get bis gear instantly they can't participate...that's just bs.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by dontrelleroosevelt View Post
    Blizzard needs to ban any type of mod like raider.io, etc. That will help with getting rid of the elite snobs making judgements without even knowing one's skill or ability to adapt at higher levels of play.
    It's easy peasy for blizz, they just need to stop giving mythic+ charts to 3rd party epeen meter sites
    You think you do, but you don't ©
    Rogues are fine ©
    We're pretty happy with rogues ©
    Haste will fix it ©

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Hashtronaut View Post
    Well thanks for the heads up I was thinking about coming back to gear up and do some arena. But if it’s rly 3 months before maxing corruption resist cap (whatever that is) to be competitive. That’s a big NOPE.
    3 months is only if you cap your cloak at level 15 today.
    If you don't even have the cloak, it's even more than 3 months. As it takes rather long time to reach that rank 15. At least 4 weeks of doing all dailies, assaults etc for vision tickets (and taking into account that you won't fail a single one which may be difficult to do at low ranks without getting boosted)

    Then there's the essecne grind. They gave us account wide essences. Or so they thought. It has a grind attached, each rank3 essence costs 2500 echoes.
    How much is 2500 echoes?
    Well, it's your weekly M+15 cache (1500), a full vision clear (750) and one emissary (250).
    That's for a SINGLE essence. You need four of them at minimum, just to fill sockets. That's 10 000 echoes.
    Let's see how many you can grind in a week.
    1500 from M+15 cache
    ~1000 from low rated PVP cache
    4 vision clears, that's 3000
    7 emissaries, that's 1750
    20 arena wins, that's about 1000 (it's needed to gain the pvp chest)
    A full Nyalotha clear, that's about 1000
    Mythic 15 clear x4, that's 900

    That's some heavy grinding to do just for bare minimum - essences. Realistically you need about 6-7 of them, so add another 5-8k echoes.

    Then you need corruptions of course, because why wouldn't you. Pricing is even heavier there
    Static stats corruption - 5000 echoes each
    Good proc corruption - 7800 echoes each
    Infinite Stars / Twilight Deva - 18000 for rank 3, 12000 for rank 2.

    Yep, you need to grind really heavily for 2 weeks for just 1 rank 3 infinity stars corruption.

    Players that played this patch since it came out already have almost everything. Optimized gear, essences, sockets on nearly everything, choice corruptions. These systems aren't hard, they're just...grinds. Time-gated grinds.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    In an attempt to keep the more hardcore audience playing consistently Blizzard have shafted returning players and I seriously question if it was worth it. Because how many of those hardcore players who keep up with the grinds previously lapsed their subscription? I would guess not many. They were playing anyway, and would have kept playing even without essences, corruption or the cloak grind.
    Pretty much, I never felt the reason to quit because "I was just raidlogging", raids were the reason to keep my sub up, staying with the guild was. Then I could play other games outside of wow, spend time on other hobbies, or if I felt like it, play alts, fill my collections on wow, chase achievements. Now WOW started feeling like that jealous GF that hates the fact you even dare look at anything else instead of spending 100% time with her. And for that reason I'm seriously considering unsubbing, Shadowlands looks to have the same grinds again (anima powers, soulbinds, covenant assignments which is another name for emissary, on top of torghast, mandatory m+, probably mandatory pvp, and ofc raiding). With how much timeconsuming WOW became if you want to raid mythic, it feels like a deadweight at my neck rather than "entertainment". The biggest problem is all that "content" is not fun to me. I feel like I'm not the target audience. I was fine if I could mostly ignore it and let others enjoy it. But last 2 expansions it feels like Blizzard wants to force everyone to do everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by protpaul View Post
    Blizzard decided to cater to bad players at the end of the day...

    All these accumulative systems at level cap exist for one singular purpose. To make Johnny only does dailies and lfr feel like he accomplishes something when he logs on dispite never challenging himself in anyway nor improving in anyway.

    Rather then letting him be stagnant they invented a faux progression system just for him so he can be ahead of someone just starting out.

    Sadly this mentality has caught on and spread. It used to be a fresh capped toon could be fully ready to start mythic raiding in roughly 2 weeks if the player knew what they were doing. Now that same feat takes closer to two months.... and why? So people who never do anything feel like they are achieving something.

    Part of me still wishes we would go back to a pre legion mentality but I think those days are dead and buried.
    Pretty much yeah. They killed my motivation to play alts, and slowly also to play my main too. This patch was SO MANY systems, AP, essences, cloak upgrades, sockets on gear and now corruption vendor it just feels too bloated and too many checkboxes to fill. You fill up one and you get another thrown to your face. And the performance of your toon depends on 1) whether you ticked all the checkboxes 2) were you lucky with RNG procs 3) are you playing any of the currently broken OP specs or something else, and only as the last point 4) your actual skill level and knowledge of the spec you play. Which feels super bad, because if "player agency" (which is the horn Blizz is tooting all the time) was the priority, then #4 should be on top.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by LordVargK View Post

    And yes, you do less damage without corruptions. That's the point of them. But a skilled player won't need those, because he does enough damage by his skill alone. Corruptions are for casuals to offset their lack of skill. Sure, you won't log very high, but the boss will go down, even without corruptions.
    Sorry but this is just not correct. IS / TD and previously EV are such a hugh amount of damage that is completly random and only proc-based. There is no skill involved beside the fact not to use IS in a cleave fight. On pure single target fights IS alone can be 30% of your overall damage and more depending on rng. This is something that canot be mitigated by skill, no matter the players skillelvel.

    TD is the same, a few lucky proccs and trash packs in M+ just melt.

    In my opinion this is very frustrating, for the returing players on the one hand because they will probably never be able to close the gap and for the ongoing players on the other hand, having variations in their dps of 20% in the same fight without changing anything only due to rng.

    I can't wait for the clown fiesta that is corruption to be over...

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Moonsorrow View Post
    Sorry but this is just not correct. IS / TD and previously EV are such a hugh amount of damage that is completly random and only proc-based. There is no skill involved beside the fact not to use IS in a cleave fight. On pure single target fights IS alone can be 30% of your overall damage and more depending on rng. This is something that canot be mitigated by skill, no matter the players skillelvel.

    TD is the same, a few lucky proccs and trash packs in M+ just melt.

    In my opinion this is very frustrating, for the returing players on the one hand because they will probably never be able to close the gap and for the ongoing players on the other hand, having variations in their dps of 20% in the same fight without changing anything only due to rng.

    I can't wait for the clown fiesta that is corruption to be over...
    You miss my point.
    Most content is tuned to be done by skilled players WITHOUT any corruptions. But historically Blizz has nerfed content bit for bit at the end of expansions, or gave players buffs. Corruption is this buff. You don't NEED it to do the content, but the content gets easier if you have it. Or in the case of m+ Corruption gives you the means to progress even when there is no better gear to get.

    You quote IS at 30% of your damage. This is about equal to the 30% Buff in ICC, DS and SoO. System is working as intended.

    Of course it's more frustrating for players who need those buffs to progress. But they can easily catch up, since you get far more echoes and gear than you will ever be able to use, since the cloak has a very slow progression of 6 corruption per week. Do your 5 and 4 Mask run every week, run a +15 and do your desired content normally and you'll have all the corruptions you'll ever need and the echoes to target specific ones too.

    Yes, Corruptions is inconsistant. But this only concers damagewhores. Btw IS gets weaker the better your raid gets, so at some point it might be better to go for passive Corruptions, meaning that you can avoid rng inconsistencies alltogether.
    Last edited by LordVargK; 2020-06-16 at 02:16 PM.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    AP is just the evolution of the game bending to the imperatives of the subscription model.
    I don't think I agree with this...it feels more like blizzard chasing bad again. Much like when they went after the cellphone "gamer" market for wow in wrath.

    The old model was successful people progressed at different rates. I am unsure how successful this new model honestly is. It could very well be that after a decade of change they alienated so much of their old audience that they now have a new far more smaller and fickle core of players then they used to.
    Last edited by protpaul; 2020-06-16 at 02:54 PM.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    And I believe wow is still too simple
    yes and its supposed to be that way as it was created that way to have more players then the hc single player game you dream of....

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by protpaul View Post
    I don't think I agree with this...not feels more like blizzard chasing bad again. Much like when they went after the cellphone "gamer" market for wow in wrath.

    The old model was successful people progressed at different rates. I am unsure how successful this new model honestly is. It could very well be that after a decade of change they alienated so much of their old audience that they now have a new far more smaller and fickle core of players then they used to.
    Nah, the playerbase is as smallminded and fickle as always, just more visibly, thanks to social media.
    A witty saying proves nothing.
    -Voltaire
    winning
    plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Djaye View Post
    how have they reverted their mistakes?*They are still forcing players to go through BFA to level.
    no you are not you can level 10-50 in outland, wotlk, cata, mop, wod, legion OR bfa.
    you can freely chose in which xpac you level to 50....

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by LordVargK View Post
    You miss my point.
    Most content is tuned to be done by skilled players WITHOUT any corruptions. But historically Blizz has nerfed content bit for bit at the end of expansions, or gave players buffs. Corruption is this buff. You don't NEED it to do the content, but the content gets easier if you have it. Or in the case of m+ Corruption gives you the means to progress even when there is no better gear to get.

    You quote IS at 30% of your damage. This is about equal to the 30% Buff in ICC, DS and SoO. System is working as intended.

    Of course it's more frustrating for players who need those buffs to progress. But they can easily catch up, since you get far more echoes and gear than you will ever be able to use, since the cloak has a very slow progression of 6 corruption per week. Do your 5 and 4 Mask run every week, run a +15 and do your desired content normally and you'll have all the corruptions you'll ever need and the echoes to target specific ones too.

    Yes, Corruptions is inconsistant. But this only concers damagewhores. Btw IS gets weaker the better your raid gets, so at some point it might be better to go for passive Corruptions, meaning that you can avoid rng inconsistencies alltogether.
    Yes, in terms of gradually nerfing content Corruption is working as intended but the perception on players is vastly different.

    Person A played throughout the patch, Person B returned 2 weeks ago.
    In the past person B would be doing say, 90% of person A's dps. And the boss having 30% less health doesn't change that.

    By scaling player power up, instead of boss hp down. You have person B doing 60% of Person A's dps. And while the boss dies just as fast as in the past. The difference in perception is massive. Playing B feels like he is woefully behind and sees no real chance to catch up to person A. He feels useless because his damage is so low.

    In a multipleplayer game, and any game really, the way players perceive your mechanics is as important, or more so, as the way the mechanic works behind the scenes.

    Yes, previously you had people feeling bad because they beat the nerfed version of a boss and they complained about that. And the new system has that less because you don't see that big debuff of -30% hp stare you in the face and its hidden by your own power increases but on the flip side your punishing returning players instead and increasing the need to grind which leads to more burnout.

    I obviously don't have the numbers but I wonder how big the burnout has been among mid-tier players as a result of the AP system, both in Legion and now in BfA. That constant need to keep playing, to keep grinding drains people. And based on a power progression cap being added in SL's I think Blizzard has noticed it aswell.
    Last edited by Gorsameth; 2020-06-16 at 02:33 PM.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Can't be worse than BfA which just failed on every level.

    Classes looks so much better in Shadowlands than BfA already and that is before the legendaries comes into play that will alter rotations and playstyles like in Legion. So if you have geared up one, then you can gear up your alts. The incentive to play alts in Shadowlands is like Legion, and not in BfA where you just don't do it because it's so boring across the board. Getting those awesome sets and doing the campaigns is going to be great. So the gearing part bit might actually fit the expansion as a whole.

    Replayability is the key. And Shadowlands got that, while BfA do not. It's already winning by a mile.

    Let loot be loot.
    Unless they implement the system where you can buy your legendary item specifically like they did in the final patch this will be feast or famine all over again. Some specs were total garbage until they got the right leggo via rng which meant days to months of being absolutely useless compared to those who had the ones they needed. Might as well be doing Nzoth without the cloak

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by tmamass View Post
    no you are not you can level 10-50 in outland, wotlk, cata, mop, wod, legion OR bfa.
    you can freely chose in which xpac you level to 50....
    alts can chose. a new player doesn't have the choice and will only be able to do BfA.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by D3athsting View Post
    It's easy peasy for blizz, they just need to stop giving mythic+ charts to 3rd party epeen meter sites
    Bingo bango!

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Rinaul View Post
    Unless they implement the system where you can buy your legendary item specifically like they did in the final patch this will be feast or famine all over again. Some specs were total garbage until they got the right leggo via rng which meant days to months of being absolutely useless compared to those who had the ones they needed. Might as well be doing Nzoth without the cloak
    You can add whatever thing you want on the Shadowlands seeing they are craftable. The pattern you get are also bind on account.

    https://www.wowhead.com/guides/legen...ms-shadowlands

    They said they have learned, just like they shown they had learned from it when making corruption...:>

    And nice comparison there, spot on!
    Last edited by Doffen; 2020-06-16 at 03:38 PM.
    - I will never be the Legion's pawn. And this tower will not be its den!

    Best Mage ever lived!

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    Yes, in terms of gradually nerfing content Corruption is working as intended but the perception on players is vastly different.

    Person A played throughout the patch, Person B returned 2 weeks ago.
    In the past person B would be doing say, 90% of person A's dps. And the boss having 30% less health doesn't change that.

    By scaling player power up, instead of boss hp down. You have person B doing 60% of Person A's dps. And while the boss dies just as fast as in the past. The difference in perception is massive. Playing B feels like he is woefully behind and sees no real chance to catch up to person A. He feels useless because his damage is so low.

    In a multipleplayer game, and any game really, the way players perceive your mechanics is as important, or more so, as the way the mechanic works behind the scenes.

    Yes, previously you had people feeling bad because they beat the nerfed version of a boss and they complained about that. And the new system has that less because you don't see that big debuff of -30% hp stare you in the face and its hidden by your own power increases but on the flip side your punishing returning players instead and increasing the need to grind which leads to more burnout.

    I obviously don't have the numbers but I wonder how big the burnout has been among mid-tier players as a result of the AP system, both in Legion and now in BfA. That constant need to keep playing, to keep grinding drains people. And based on a power progression cap being added in SL's I think Blizzard has noticed it aswell.
    You make valid points. Especially about AP burnout. I played 7.0 and 7.3. 8.0 and 8.3. Precisely because I hate the need to constantly farm AP.
    I resubbed about 2 months ago and really don't have any BiS Corruptions. Just random ones, mastery here, haste there, increased crit damage... I'm not even close at my Cloak cap (although it is rank 15) and I have more resistance than corrpution. Still I am able to compete with my guildmates and do quite well on the logs. Because even those random Corruptions give me a DPS boost, but you don't notice it as easily.
    IS, TD and the other procs appear in the logs. Passive Corruption does not. But it still increases your damage. As you said, it's all about player perception.
    Yes, TD for Tanks is OP, but imo Tanks are so important in 8.3 that they deserve it.
    The only things a returning player needs to do is to get their cloak to 15 (takes about 5-6 weeks of casual play) and farm some essences.
    Yes, that's more effort than just getting carried through a raid once or twice. And I understand that this creates a mental barrier. But it's just that: a mental barrier.

    Considering the estimated release date of SL, if those systems now were not in place then there would be already complaints about a content draught. You can't do everything perfectly.

    Of course I'd prefer not to have Corruptions, Azerite or Essences and instead have a glyph system with effects like the Legiondaries. And have a (perfectly tested) SL release in August. But that's not happening.

    One last thing: Everything I state is from the perspective of DPS classes. For healers the current systems are horrible. Like really, really horrible. Tanks have it difficult at first and easy after a few weeks. But healers... HV is not really balanced around them, most Corruptions are useless for your role and your essences seem kinda lame. While I absolutely enjoyed playing a healer in 8.0, I don't really know how to start one now, since my heal characters don't have the possibilites that my DPS characters have.

  17. #137
    I understand that Blizzard made this patch too much grind for returning players. Gating rank 3 essences behind reps is just a dirty way to push people into Najarta and Mechagon island. The earning rate and its time-gated nature are very annoying. I can only log in 3 days a week, having to spend like 1 hour doing those reputation "chores". Going at this rate, I expect to get exalted with Najarta zone within 3 months...

    However, we should not view those essences, corruptions, and azerites as "forced" nor "bad". They are to further the power of the character. They are supposed to be longed for, as rewards for hard work. After about 2 weeks hating the system, I kind of understand why they put those in place. It creates replayability for geared people to re-do the "content" of the game. They allow some customisation or at least an illusion of such. There is some depth in changing the stat priority, azerites, and essence. My shaman can do more haste and cast many lava burst. I could also do more crit for mana return as restore and for better % To dispell magic effects with Cleansing water PVP talent. I could pick the Pack Spirit and play like a druid, or get the tides azerites to play like a heal bot. It is really working as intended.

    Those rank 3 essences aren't much if we look closely. They are just some bonus minor effects to have. farming from rank 1 to 2 extending the minor proc from 4 to 6 second is not worth the effort imo. We simply have to accept that old players are better, and we accept the current state of gearing. I do have fun playing low keys MP, and random BG. My shaman doesn't have much gear, all rank 1 essence, 1 default corruption from the main questline. And I play fine, top healing done in BG sometimes. The game is fun if we play at our level.

    In short, just play the game, essences and corruption will come. It takes time to go serious.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by ntlntl View Post
    I understand that Blizzard made this patch too much grind for returning players. Gating rank 3 essences behind reps is just a dirty way to push people into Najarta and Mechagon island. The earning rate and its time-gated nature are very annoying. I can only log in 3 days a week, having to spend like 1 hour doing those reputation "chores". Going at this rate, I expect to get exalted with Najarta zone within 3 months...

    However, we should not view those essences, corruptions, and azerites as "forced" nor "bad". They are to further the power of the character. They are supposed to be longed for, as rewards for hard work. After about 2 weeks hating the system, I kind of understand why they put those in place. It creates replayability for geared people to re-do the "content" of the game. They allow some customisation or at least an illusion of such. There is some depth in changing the stat priority, azerites, and essence. My shaman can do more haste and cast many lava burst. I could also do more crit for mana return as restore and for better % To dispell magic effects with Cleansing water PVP talent. I could pick the Pack Spirit and play like a druid, or get the tides azerites to play like a heal bot. It is really working as intended.

    Those rank 3 essences aren't much if we look closely. They are just some bonus minor effects to have. farming from rank 1 to 2 extending the minor proc from 4 to 6 second is not worth the effort imo. We simply have to accept that old players are better, and we accept the current state of gearing. I do have fun playing low keys MP, and random BG. My shaman doesn't have much gear, all rank 1 essence, 1 default corruption from the main questline. And I play fine, top healing done in BG sometimes. The game is fun if we play at our level.

    In short, just play the game, essences and corruption will come. It takes time to go serious.
    No these systems are trash. Power should be tied to accomplishments not busy work. Climbing the difficulty ladder? Every step should offer more power.

    Do a daily quest that awards 10g? You should only ever get 10g. Bot some weird magical currency to grind the same mindless quest over and over again.

    Legion was really the starting point for these truely terrible systems.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by protpaul View Post
    No these systems are trash. Power should be tied to accomplishments not busy work. Climbing the difficulty ladder? Every step should offer more power.

    Do a daily quest that awards 10g? You should only ever get 10g. Bot some weird magical currency to grind the same mindless quest over and over again.

    Legion was really the starting point for these truely terrible systems.
    Agreed. Ironically the game went further downhill after WoD and I LOVED WoD's class design. The system's grinding is just so bad. At least with like MoP and WoD the "grinding" with the legendary cloak/ring was a progression (weekly etc) based on gathering items, running stuff but at a steady pace with each major portion of it being more meaningful or upgrades being further implemented after each patch. It was essentially an awesome linear based system that worked an received a decent amount of praise. The Artifact power and Azerite Systems are just a worse overall progression system.
    Last edited by SerratedEdge252; 2020-06-16 at 07:46 PM.

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by MiiiMiii View Post
    For being serious in PvP you gotta have rank 3 in a bunch of essences + the right corruptions. For being serious in PvE it's the same story different corruptions/essences.

    I wanna take the game seriously but truth is the game encourages me to not take the game seriously, asks me to farm some mounts and transmogs, and then do my weekly stuff.

    Don't bother doing LFR, rewarded ilvl sucks. Don't bother doing Normal mode, rewarded ilvl sucks. Don't bother doing Heroic, you can't link experience to join them. Don't do Mythic, you don't have the right corruptions/essences. Don't do PvP, you don't have the right corruptions/essences. Forget about doing M+ your RIO rating sucks ass.

    Remember to forget about doing your visions if you want to play a healer.

    Stick to doing your emmesarries and maybe a weekly +15 chest. Then stop playing. That's what it feels like.

    How do you guys break that cycle? You find a Heroic raiding guild that is willing to carry you or what?
    On one hand I understand what you mean. Having to do a list of chores every week just to stay current is a pain. On the other hand though you can't be expected to be handed a raid spot in a high end raiding guild or pvp group when your not willing to put in the work and others are. Its a fine balance that I'm sure blizzard struggles with everyday making sure people can do what they are capable of with out it being handed to them.

    Best you can do is find a guild that plays the way you want to play and go from there.

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