The greatest failures of the horde.

[Super Dickmann]

But not the Horde overall. The Horde stopped being Orcish a long time ago.

Let me elaborate on your example, how I took it at least. An Orc versus Nightborne depends on whether magic is allowed (in before the "Thrall cheated" meme rears its ugly head). No magic? Orc crush puny skinny elf! Magic ok? Orc is dead before even swinging his ax.

You could easily predict the winner of any combination you liked of the Horde races. Since we can do so, it loses all value in deciding who's right. Mak'gora ONLY barely worked as an Orc tradition, strongest orc wins, and my original point was that trial by combat is only held in any esteem by primitives, not by anything intelligent.

Depends largely on how you spin it. In the comic you have people using magic and while I've spoken at length in other topics how using magic isn't against the rules but in not doing so wrecks it as an orcish tradition since it turns it the shaman from spiritual representative to the most powerful possible participant, it is an easy patch to apply it to the other races. The tauren have to be hardy to make it out and Cairne had no issue using it against Garrosh, and the trolls have a survival of the fittest thing going for themselves. I mean, the way the Zandalari keep the subject tribes in line is going into their district and killing some of them just to show them who's boss. It is brutal, but that's the name of the game.

You mean the point in the campaign that was the most jarringly out of place? Highly sophisticated ancient beings resorting to brute combat? It was so alien to the rest of the setting that it wrecked the questline.

Speak for yourself, that was the one time the Nightborne went past being a more well executed version of the blood elf TBC story and showed a bit of how a society that's been decadent for 10k years where egos constantly flare would have no issue using force to sort things. Gave me a bit of a DA:O dwarf vibe, which sadly didn't come up again.

[Saltysquidoon]

Mak'gora ONLY barely worked as an Orc tradition, strongest orc wins, and my original point was that trial by combat is only held in any esteem by primitives, not by anything intelligent.

You mean the point in the campaign that was the most jarringly out of place? Highly sophisticated ancient beings resorting to brute combat? It was so alien to the rest of the setting that it wrecked the questline.

I wouldn't judge them too harshly, it's only been a little over 200 years for us.

[Powerogue]

Firing the catapults.

How on earth is that not on here? That's part of BFA's intro.

Sylvanas just gave the order. Horde soldiers obeyed it.

[cparle87]

It's still better then being apathetic and irrelevant to the plot in total. Because that's where horde story goes when Baine is in charge. The horde doesen't matter. The big bad guy plot is always dominated by the alliance

One guy complains the Horde is irrelevant to the plot.
Next guy complains the Alliance is irrelevant to the plot because they claim the Alliance only reacts to things the Horde does and doesn't initiate things themselves.

Which is it?

[Kithelle]

Oh but him dying would have sent a message to the Horde, and they would have immediately stopped following her, just like how they were outraged by Cairne's death and stopped following Garrosh. Oh wait...

Mak'gora is another huge "rule of cool" problem with Horde lore. We're simultaneously supposed to believe they're intelligent, and that they think trial by combat is valid.

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They want to have their cake and eat it.
- "The Horde is innocent, it was all that mean Blackhand/Gul'dan/Orgrim/Garrosh/Sylvanas, we dindu nuffin!"
- "The Horde won a great victory by that deed which we just denied doing!"

The only reason they can even come close to having it is because Anduin is a little to forgiving....things would be different if Varian was still around, probably why they killed him.

[Feanoro]

The only reason they can even come close to having it is because Anduin is a little to forgiving....things would be different if Varian was still around, probably why they killed him.

Varian made the mistake far more established characters have been killed or lobotomized over, he called the Horde evil.

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One guy complains the Horde is irrelevant to the plot.
Next guy complains the Alliance is irrelevant to the plot because they claim the Alliance only reacts to things the Horde does and doesn't initiate things themselves.

Which is it?

I'm going with the Alliance guy, if only because the Hordie you're quoting has tried to push the tinfoil hat idea that Alliance players send bribes to the writers. If that was the case, damn, are they not getting their money's worth!

[Soon-TM]

Alliance players send bribes to the writers.

That's nuts, but not any crazier than @Raisei 's theory that Horde players "force" Blizzard to write Stupid Evil™ warchiefs.

[De Lupe]

Where's the "None of the above" option? Or the "Didn't execute Garrosh earlier"? How about "Put Sylvanas in charge" as a choice.

I may not be a lore expert, but even I know that literally none of what you put up there is the greatest failure.

[Soon-TM]

How about "Put Sylvanas in charge" as a choice.

"The Horde" didn't put Sylvanas in charge, Vol'jin did. The Horde wasn't and isn't a democracy, you know - and neither is the Alliance, for that matter.

[Niroshi]

Every single thing about Sylvanas' role in the Horde and its direction this expansion.

[cparle87]

Varian made the mistake far more established characters have been killed or lobotomized over, he called the Horde evil.

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I'm going with the Alliance guy, if only because the Hordie you're quoting has tried to push the tinfoil hat idea that Alliance players send bribes to the writers. If that was the case, damn, are they not getting their money's worth!

I'm gonna need some of whatever THAT guy is smoking.

[Maljinwo]

I voted for Rastakhan's death. Because of course I did
But that's mostly on the writers themselves than the Horde, I guess.

Other than that, I'd point that the greatest failure in BfA was actually following through Sylvanas' war. The Horde had nothing to gain from the war itself other than a vague "we could cripple the Alliance and maybe they won't try to get revenge if we get hostages" which was, of course, a failure due to Sylvanas.

[Kithelle]

Varian made the mistake far more established characters have been killed or lobotomized over, he called the Horde evil.

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I'm going with the Alliance guy, if only because the Hordie you're quoting has tried to push the tinfoil hat idea that Alliance players send bribes to the writers. If that was the case, damn, are they not getting their money's worth!

Sure...sure

[Daevelian]

Where's the option for "Attracting the worst playerbase"?

[Soon-TM]

Where's the option for "Attracting the worst playerbase"?

I personally consider the sanctimonious, patronizing, holier-than-thou, human paladin 24/7 LARP'ers to be the worst playerbase. YMMV of course.

[Daevelian]

I personally consider the sanctimonious, patronizing, holier-than-thou, human paladin 24/7 LARP'ers to be the worst playerbase. YMMV of course.

About equal really, only one of them tends to be in denial about what they really are while the other is at least self aware.

Edit: Lets also not forget how bad blood knight LARP'ers are...

[Logwyn]

People wanted sylvanas to be a good warchief. Not a garrosh reprise. That's the real issue with the story.

She never would have been. A total rework of her character from the beginning till now. The bread crumbs are there all along. Only people trying to be edgy, some dark fantasy thing choosing not to see it, or totally blind miss it.

Always about her own selfish interests.

[Grazrug]

One guy complains the Horde is irrelevant to the plot.
Next guy complains the Alliance is irrelevant to the plot because they claim the Alliance only reacts to things the Horde does and doesn't initiate things themselves.

Which is it?

I trade whatever the alliance has with the current state of the horde any day. At least we would get the important lore characters.

[Lord Pebbleton]

Why did everyone even go along with Sylvanas?

Because it's easier to push a story forward if there is no conflict at all and the whole faction agrees with her stupid shenanigans

AND

Because she was the scapegoat to justify the cruelty of the horde. She was not the only one burning Teldrassil but she sure got all the blame. Same thing happened with Garrosh, after the rebellion everyone behaved like he was literally alone in doing his tyranny business. To an extent, which I am going to consider here because it's about orcs, the same happened with Grom and the cringy "Draenor is free!" cutscene, but that time even the bad guy himself got excused anyway.

Basically it's Blizzard keeping the writing quality to a minimum and forcing the same narrative on the horde over and over. For a game that should be about overcoming differences and restoring a balance, I am very not surprised whenever the horde performs atrocities, backstabs or genocides, because they probably already did something worse, and that's not how you deliver a story.

[Raisei]

I personally consider the sanctimonious, patronizing, holier-than-thou, human paladin 24/7 LARP'ers to be the worst playerbase. YMMV of course.

Still prefer that over the creepy guys that literally want to lick Sylvanas' undead rotting feet and defend unrestrained mass murder of civilians, but I guess we just disagree there.

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People wanted sylvanas to be a good warchief. Not a garrosh reprise. That's the real issue with the story.

Sure they did, because many of those people ignored and keep ignoring her deeply evil nature. Except for having her do a 180° degree turn to "proof herself worthy of being chosen to lead" she would always turn out this way.

People like to shout that Blizzard destroyed her character in BFA, when in actuality they are just delivering on what was set up for years now. Her being a "good warchief" THAT would have retconned the character completely.