View Poll Results: What is the Horde's greatest shame of bfa?

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  • The escape of Mythrax.

    9 9.09%
  • The death of Rastakhan.

    12 12.12%
  • The destruction of the golden fleet.

    7 7.07%
  • Preventing Zul from reaching g'huun.

    3 3.03%
  • Losing both warfronts.

    17 17.17%
  • Not killing Baine.

    35 35.35%
  • All of the above.

    16 16.16%
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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    But not the Horde overall. The Horde stopped being Orcish a long time ago.

    Let me elaborate on your example, how I took it at least. An Orc versus Nightborne depends on whether magic is allowed (in before the "Thrall cheated" meme rears its ugly head). No magic? Orc crush puny skinny elf! Magic ok? Orc is dead before even swinging his ax.

    You could easily predict the winner of any combination you liked of the Horde races. Since we can do so, it loses all value in deciding who's right. Mak'gora ONLY barely worked as an Orc tradition, strongest orc wins, and my original point was that trial by combat is only held in any esteem by primitives, not by anything intelligent.
    Depends largely on how you spin it. In the comic you have people using magic and while I've spoken at length in other topics how using magic isn't against the rules but in not doing so wrecks it as an orcish tradition since it turns it the shaman from spiritual representative to the most powerful possible participant, it is an easy patch to apply it to the other races. The tauren have to be hardy to make it out and Cairne had no issue using it against Garrosh, and the trolls have a survival of the fittest thing going for themselves. I mean, the way the Zandalari keep the subject tribes in line is going into their district and killing some of them just to show them who's boss. It is brutal, but that's the name of the game.

    You mean the point in the campaign that was the most jarringly out of place? Highly sophisticated ancient beings resorting to brute combat? It was so alien to the rest of the setting that it wrecked the questline.
    Speak for yourself, that was the one time the Nightborne went past being a more well executed version of the blood elf TBC story and showed a bit of how a society that's been decadent for 10k years where egos constantly flare would have no issue using force to sort things. Gave me a bit of a DA:O dwarf vibe, which sadly didn't come up again.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Mak'gora ONLY barely worked as an Orc tradition, strongest orc wins, and my original point was that trial by combat is only held in any esteem by primitives, not by anything intelligent.

    You mean the point in the campaign that was the most jarringly out of place? Highly sophisticated ancient beings resorting to brute combat? It was so alien to the rest of the setting that it wrecked the questline.
    I wouldn't judge them too harshly, it's only been a little over 200 years for us.

  3. #43
    Firing the catapults.

    How on earth is that not on here? That's part of BFA's intro.

    Sylvanas just gave the order. Horde soldiers obeyed it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daevelian View Post
    So this is how far the Lore forum has fallen? Eesh.
    I take it back, BfA is not the lowest the games lore could have gone, this thread proves that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Grazrug View Post
    It's still better then being apathetic and irrelevant to the plot in total. Because that's where horde story goes when Baine is in charge. The horde doesen't matter. The big bad guy plot is always dominated by the alliance
    One guy complains the Horde is irrelevant to the plot.
    Next guy complains the Alliance is irrelevant to the plot because they claim the Alliance only reacts to things the Horde does and doesn't initiate things themselves.

    Which is it?
    One of the most difficult things for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back.

  5. #45
    Elemental Lord Kithelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Oh but him dying would have sent a message to the Horde, and they would have immediately stopped following her, just like how they were outraged by Cairne's death and stopped following Garrosh. Oh wait...

    Mak'gora is another huge "rule of cool" problem with Horde lore. We're simultaneously supposed to believe they're intelligent, and that they think trial by combat is valid.

    - - - Updated - - -

    They want to have their cake and eat it.
    - "The Horde is innocent, it was all that mean Blackhand/Gul'dan/Orgrim/Garrosh/Sylvanas, we dindu nuffin!"
    - "The Horde won a great victory by that deed which we just denied doing!"
    The only reason they can even come close to having it is because Anduin is a little to forgiving....things would be different if Varian was still around, probably why they killed him.
    #WithoutRespectWeReject

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    The only reason they can even come close to having it is because Anduin is a little to forgiving....things would be different if Varian was still around, probably why they killed him.
    Varian made the mistake far more established characters have been killed or lobotomized over, he called the Horde evil.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    One guy complains the Horde is irrelevant to the plot.
    Next guy complains the Alliance is irrelevant to the plot because they claim the Alliance only reacts to things the Horde does and doesn't initiate things themselves.

    Which is it?
    I'm going with the Alliance guy, if only because the Hordie you're quoting has tried to push the tinfoil hat idea that Alliance players send bribes to the writers. If that was the case, damn, are they not getting their money's worth!
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I'll buy an Anduin shirt if Delaryn doesn't end up betraying Sylvanas by the end of the expansion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Alliance players send bribes to the writers.
    That's nuts, but not any crazier than @Raisei 's theory that Horde players "force" Blizzard to write Stupid Evil™ warchiefs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Danuser
    we created a story structure for Sylvanas that, on the surface, echoed many broad strokes of the road Garrosh took (...). These parallels were intentional. But it's within the nuance that we sought to show the story grow and change.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    BFA was about as nuanced as a golf club to the testicles/ovaries.

  8. #48
    The Lightbringer De Lupe's Avatar
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    Where's the "None of the above" option? Or the "Didn't execute Garrosh earlier"? How about "Put Sylvanas in charge" as a choice.

    I may not be a lore expert, but even I know that literally none of what you put up there is the greatest failure.
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by De Lupe View Post
    How about "Put Sylvanas in charge" as a choice.
    "The Horde" didn't put Sylvanas in charge, Vol'jin did. The Horde wasn't and isn't a democracy, you know - and neither is the Alliance, for that matter.
    Quote Originally Posted by Danuser
    we created a story structure for Sylvanas that, on the surface, echoed many broad strokes of the road Garrosh took (...). These parallels were intentional. But it's within the nuance that we sought to show the story grow and change.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    BFA was about as nuanced as a golf club to the testicles/ovaries.

  10. #50
    Every single thing about Sylvanas' role in the Horde and its direction this expansion.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Varian made the mistake far more established characters have been killed or lobotomized over, he called the Horde evil.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I'm going with the Alliance guy, if only because the Hordie you're quoting has tried to push the tinfoil hat idea that Alliance players send bribes to the writers. If that was the case, damn, are they not getting their money's worth!
    I'm gonna need some of whatever THAT guy is smoking.
    One of the most difficult things for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back.

  12. #52
    The Lightbringer Maljinwo's Avatar
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    I voted for Rastakhan's death. Because of course I did
    But that's mostly on the writers themselves than the Horde, I guess.

    Other than that, I'd point that the greatest failure in BfA was actually following through Sylvanas' war. The Horde had nothing to gain from the war itself other than a vague "we could cripple the Alliance and maybe they won't try to get revenge if we get hostages" which was, of course, a failure due to Sylvanas.
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  13. #53
    Elemental Lord Kithelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Varian made the mistake far more established characters have been killed or lobotomized over, he called the Horde evil.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I'm going with the Alliance guy, if only because the Hordie you're quoting has tried to push the tinfoil hat idea that Alliance players send bribes to the writers. If that was the case, damn, are they not getting their money's worth!
    Sure...sure
    #WithoutRespectWeReject

  14. #54
    Bloodsail Admiral Daevelian's Avatar
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    Where's the option for "Attracting the worst playerbase"?
    TEA IS DOWN!

    Sylvanas is what you get when you cross Joffrey Baratheon with a mary sue. Change my mind. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daevelian View Post
    Where's the option for "Attracting the worst playerbase"?
    I personally consider the sanctimonious, patronizing, holier-than-thou, human paladin 24/7 LARP'ers to be the worst playerbase. YMMV of course.
    Quote Originally Posted by Danuser
    we created a story structure for Sylvanas that, on the surface, echoed many broad strokes of the road Garrosh took (...). These parallels were intentional. But it's within the nuance that we sought to show the story grow and change.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    BFA was about as nuanced as a golf club to the testicles/ovaries.

  16. #56
    Bloodsail Admiral Daevelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    I personally consider the sanctimonious, patronizing, holier-than-thou, human paladin 24/7 LARP'ers to be the worst playerbase. YMMV of course.
    About equal really, only one of them tends to be in denial about what they really are while the other is at least self aware.

    Edit: Lets also not forget how bad blood knight LARP'ers are...
    Last edited by Daevelian; 2020-06-14 at 08:03 AM.
    TEA IS DOWN!

    Sylvanas is what you get when you cross Joffrey Baratheon with a mary sue. Change my mind. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

  17. #57
    I am Murloc! Logwyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grazrug View Post
    People wanted sylvanas to be a good warchief. Not a garrosh reprise. That's the real issue with the story.
    She never would have been. A total rework of her character from the beginning till now. The bread crumbs are there all along. Only people trying to be edgy, some dark fantasy thing choosing not to see it, or totally blind miss it.

    Always about her own selfish interests.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    One guy complains the Horde is irrelevant to the plot.
    Next guy complains the Alliance is irrelevant to the plot because they claim the Alliance only reacts to things the Horde does and doesn't initiate things themselves.

    Which is it?
    I trade whatever the alliance has with the current state of the horde any day. At least we would get the important lore characters.

  19. #59
    I am Murloc! Lord Pebbleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irian View Post
    Why did everyone even go along with Sylvanas?
    Because it's easier to push a story forward if there is no conflict at all and the whole faction agrees with her stupid shenanigans

    AND

    Because she was the scapegoat to justify the cruelty of the horde. She was not the only one burning Teldrassil but she sure got all the blame. Same thing happened with Garrosh, after the rebellion everyone behaved like he was literally alone in doing his tyranny business. To an extent, which I am going to consider here because it's about orcs, the same happened with Grom and the cringy "Draenor is free!" cutscene, but that time even the bad guy himself got excused anyway.

    Basically it's Blizzard keeping the writing quality to a minimum and forcing the same narrative on the horde over and over. For a game that should be about overcoming differences and restoring a balance, I am very not surprised whenever the horde performs atrocities, backstabs or genocides, because they probably already did something worse, and that's not how you deliver a story.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    I personally consider the sanctimonious, patronizing, holier-than-thou, human paladin 24/7 LARP'ers to be the worst playerbase. YMMV of course.
    Still prefer that over the creepy guys that literally want to lick Sylvanas' undead rotting feet and defend unrestrained mass murder of civilians, but I guess we just disagree there.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Grazrug View Post
    People wanted sylvanas to be a good warchief. Not a garrosh reprise. That's the real issue with the story.
    Sure they did, because many of those people ignored and keep ignoring her deeply evil nature. Except for having her do a 180° degree turn to "proof herself worthy of being chosen to lead" she would always turn out this way.

    People like to shout that Blizzard destroyed her character in BFA, when in actuality they are just delivering on what was set up for years now. Her being a "good warchief" THAT would have retconned the character completely.

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