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  1. #461
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassian Bob View Post
    Neat!

    Also, yeah, the idea that Silvermoon will be made neutral or Alliance is almost as laughable as Stormwind going to the Frostwolves or something. Silvermoon has been a Horde hub for over 13 years in game and around that time in universe as well. While plenty of individual high elves have pledged themselves wholeheartedly to various incarnations of the Alliance over the years, Silvermoon's interest in the Alliance was always tenuous at best.

    Plus, the only reason Quel'Thalas fell was because of betrayal from within. Otherwise, the scourge would have never broken the elves' magical defences. Do you think the Regent Lord and his advisers would have something less stringent in place now protecting Silvermoon? The defences are probably even harder to break now and guarded by fanatically loyal magisters handpicked by Rommath.
    I was thinking now that Keelen's Trustworthy Tailoring was closed should become the headquarters of the horde's high elves on silvermoon.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    How so? Were the frostwolves ever on the alliance?
    Are the frostwolves culture, civilization, nature, religion, characteristics all based , connected to, related to, tied to the alliance?
    Were the frostwolves ever intrinsic to the alliance and their culture the primary one all the alliance races are based on
    Or the highest version of the alliance?

    If this was the case, than the comparison with Stormwind going Frostwolf in mockery would be understandable. It is not in this case.
    the orcs once conquered stormwind and was the first capital of the horde in azeroth

  2. #462
    Mechagnome Thalassian Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    How so? Were the frostwolves ever on the alliance?
    Are the frostwolves culture, civilization, nature, religion, characteristics all based , connected to, related to, tied to the alliance?
    Were the frostwolves ever intrinsic to the alliance and their culture the primary one all the alliance races are based on
    Or the highest version of the alliance?

    If this was the case, than the comparison with Stormwind going Frostwolf in mockery would be understandable. It is not in this case.
    Perhaps many high elves now define themselves by their relationship with the Alliance, but high elves before their rebirth as the blood elves had very tenuous links to the Alliance. High elves may have impacted human civilisation in monumental ways, teaching early magic-users and founding the magocracy of Dalaran, but the cultural influence has been fairly one-sided. Some Thalassians may have adopted Light-worship in the human fashion, but you can tell, by Silvermoon guards' reactions to enquiring where priest trainers are, that this form of Light-worship was either not very widespread or was seen as unappealing. Ancestor-worship and reverence for the Sunwell seems to have always taken precedence.

    Quel'Thalas has always preferred isolationism (though it has finally shirking that impulse since Hellscream's downfall). It sent only a token force to aid the Alliance in the Second Way - to free itself from a millenia old dead to the kings of Strom. Alleria's cadre of rangers joined her in the assault on Outland voluntarily and against Silvermoon's wishes. The high elf presence in the Third War outside Quel'Thalas was once again voluntary or from the Thalassian population of Dalaran.

    Silvermoon's administration has never been particularly invested in the Alliance beyond a "you scratch my back, I scratch yours" approach. The Alliance coveting Quel'Thalas makes very little sense ideologically. Only, perhaps, logistically.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    I was thinking now that Keelen's Trustworthy Tailoring was closed should become the headquarters of the horde's high elves on silvermoon.
    Hehe! I think it would be a good focal point!

  3. #463
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    How so? Were the frostwolves ever on the alliance?
    Are the frostwolves culture, civilization, nature, religion, characteristics all based , connected to, related to, tied to the alliance?
    Were the frostwolves ever intrinsic to the alliance and their culture the primary one all the alliance races are based on
    Or the highest version of the alliance?

    If this was the case, than the comparison with Stormwind going Frostwolf in mockery would be understandable. It is not in this case.
    What version of World of Warcraft are you playing? because a common complaint is that Alliance's culture, iconography, major characters and storylines are too Stormwind Human focused and that the Alliance despite the title feels more like a homogenized human-led faction with Gnomes, Dwarves, Night Elves and Draenei as little more than set dressing yet you think it's Elf dominated? aside from Alleria (and sort of Veressa) theres no major high elf characters within the Alliance. Ironically the Horde is now more of an "Alliance" than the alliance ever was with the Horde Council.

    What aspects of the Alliance races culture is "high elven" because the Church of the Holy Light was founded by humans, the various kingdoms (Lordaeron, Stromgarde, Dalaran, Stormwind) were all founded by humans, Dwarves, Gnomes and Draenei (literal aliens from outer space) don't owe their cultures to Elves and the Night Elves literally didn't know high elves existed until the third war since they exiled majority of the highborne from Kalimdor 10,000 before the third war

    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassian Bob View Post
    Silvermoon's administration has never been particularly invested in the Alliance beyond a "you scratch my back, I scratch yours" approach. The Alliance coveting Quel'Thalas makes very little sense ideologically. Only, perhaps, logistically.
    Aside from Alleria i don't any of the Alliance leadership really cares about taking Quel'Thalas for ideological reasons, Logistically it's not bordering any Alliance territories (plaguelands are neutral and controlled by the Argent Crusade), isn't coveting any major resources and isn't geographically important aside from maybe as a harbour to Northrend (but is the alliance really ferrying many supplies from the eastern kingdoms to northrend now that WoLK is done) really reclaiming Gilneas or any of the other lost Human kingdoms is more important to the Alliance than Quel'thalas
    Last edited by Imperator4321; 2020-12-08 at 11:20 PM.

  4. #464
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    the orcs once conquered stormwind and was the first capital of the horde in azeroth
    Frostwolves Rhlor?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaedan View Post
    I may understand his position, but I really don't think it is necessary to post in all elf threads about it. It is enough this discussion took over high elf thread, there is no need to spread it to other threads, especially the one which is dedicated to blood elves, who are and will be horde faction, and we know chances that will change are extremely low.
    In all fairness, they are complaining about me responding to what they say, I give my opinion, but then they go and attack it, so i respond, and @Alanar complain about me doing so because they don't like what I have to say..

    Yet they cause the responses that prolong such discussions they don't want to hear or like. They could easily not respond or say no, I don't share your opinion. You may ask why I don't do that?

    Because I don't have a problem discussing such matters anywhere or everywhere they are relevant, they are the ones complaining.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassian Bob View Post
    Always good to meet a fellow Farstrider!

    Thanks for the lore tidbits! Are they all from the same source as you pictured above discussing Lor'themar and Quel'Thalas?
    I am a farstrider fan too, and I give lots of lore tidbits also.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    People getting fed up by it.. it shows. I mean no one wants to go into a discussion that takes for ever to read and to quote, when eventually if you read between the lines.. you will notice there is nothing to discuss.
    Funny, i'ts only horde elf fanboys and their forum buddies who just don't likehearing anything that supports alliance elves in wow.

    And because they are so use to having their way and repeating their dogma in their echo chamber, a foreign element advocating for the alliance strongly always upsets them.

    Irony is I don't hate the horde, things I've been suggesting I genuinely will help both the factions and is the right approach.
    Valewalker Farodin: "Magic has long been a vice of the elves. It shaped us, and lifted us out of the darkness - but without balance, it also threatens to unmake us."

    My long replies often repeat info to make sure: You get all the info I have, It is clear and complete, in case you didn't actually read the first one. New readers have context at hand and are reminded of the point

  5. #465
    Herald of the Titans Clone's Avatar
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    So basically @ravenmoon is mad a race he likes is in a faction he dislikes.

  6. #466
    Quote Originally Posted by Clone View Post
    So basically @ravenmoon is mad a race he likes is in a faction he dislikes.
    He made it clear the reason he wanted Nightborne for the Alliance and now the Night Elves to have Suramar is that he only cares about the Highborne. He wants the Elune and Nature elements of the Night Elves to be deemphasized and the Highborne elements to become more important (basically just turning them into another variety of High Elf) because the Horde has gotten the High Elves of Warcraft and he doesn't care for the Night Elves as the Wood Elf analogue of the setting and just wants some variety of high elves on the alliance even if it means erasing the Kaldorei's own identity to do so.
    Last edited by Imperator4321; 2020-12-09 at 12:01 AM.

  7. #467
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassian Bob View Post
    Perhaps many high elves now define themselves by their relationship with the Alliance, but high elves before their rebirth as the blood elves had very tenuous links to the Alliance. High elves may have impacted human civilisation in monumental ways, teaching early magic-users and founding the magocracy of Dalaran, but the cultural influence has been fairly one-sided. Some Thalassians may have adopted Light-worship in the human fashion, but you can tell, by Silvermoon guards' reactions to enquiring where priest trainers are, that this form of Light-worship was either not very widespread or was seen as unappealing. Ancestor-worship and reverence for the Sunwell seems to have always taken precedence.

    Quel'Thalas has always preferred isolationism (though it has finally shirking that impulse since Hellscream's downfall). It sent only a token force to aid the Alliance in the Second Way - to free itself from a millenia old dead to the kings of Strom. Alleria's cadre of rangers joined her in the assault on Outland voluntarily and against Silvermoon's wishes. The high elf presence in the Third War outside Quel'Thalas was once again voluntary or from the Thalassian population of Dalaran.

    Silvermoon's administration has never been particularly invested in the Alliance beyond a "you scratch my back, I scratch yours" approach. The Alliance coveting Quel'Thalas makes very little sense ideologically. Only, perhaps, logistically.



    Hehe! I think it would be a good focal point!
    the first capital of the horde in azeroth was stormwind

    on the other point I think it is a good place because it is wide enough to be a focal point

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Frostwolves Rhlor?

    - - - Updated - - -


    In all fairness, they are complaining about me responding to what they say, I give my opinion, but then they go and attack it, so i respond, and @Alanar complain about me doing so because they don't like what I have to say..

    Yet they cause the responses that prolong such discussions they don't want to hear or like. They could easily not respond or say no, I don't share your opinion. You may ask why I don't do that?

    Because I don't have a problem discussing such matters anywhere or everywhere they are relevant, they are the ones complaining.

    - - - Updated - - -


    I am a farstrider fan too, and I give lots of lore tidbits also.

    - - - Updated - - -


    Funny, i'ts only horde elf fanboys and their forum buddies who just don't likehearing anything that supports alliance elves in wow.

    And because they are so use to having their way and repeating their dogma in their echo chamber, a foreign element advocating for the alliance strongly always upsets them.

    Irony is I don't hate the horde, things I've been suggesting I genuinely will help both the factions and is the right approach.
    actually yes since they were part of the horde at the beginning of the horde invasion of azeroth

    It's one thing to support the elves of the alliance, like asking for better and more customizations. another thing is to ask to steal the capitals of the elves of the horde.
    that is not supporting the elves of the alliance, that is attacking the elves of the horde and obviously we are not going to like you to attack us.
    Last edited by Rhlor; 2020-12-08 at 11:43 PM.

  8. #468
    Bloodsail Admiral bloodkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clone View Post
    So basically @ravenmoon is mad a race he likes is in a faction he dislikes.
    It's also interesting to note that he basically admits that he derails every thread on purpose. It's fine to give your opinion, but if you enter a specific threads just to unload your opinion to be controversial with the only goal of stirring up shit and upsetting people you don't agree with It's kind of annoying and obvious. Especially when said person then thinks people will just let it go unanswered or would even agree with them.

    I mean it's ok if you have an opinion that's different or even controversial, but at least be civil about it. Act like an adult and just agree to disagree, there's no harm in people having different opinions. Don't expect people to agree if you enter a place that clearly has a different mindset than yours.

    There's also something else disturbing going on in the forums of mmo-c, if seen a lot of super obsessed posters (not going to call out names) going about continually spamming the forums/threads just to force their opinions in everyone's faces, it's really obnoxious and I'd wish the mods would do something about them. Mmo-c has always had it's fair share of obsessed posters, but it's getting worse as of late.
    'Something's awry.' -Duhgan 'Bel' beltayn

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  9. #469
    To try and steer this thread back to it's intended topic, I'm hoping we get another world revamp to reflect many of the changes to the state of factions/races after Shadowlands (maybe some sort of timeskip or just what was happening on Azeroth while we were in the shadowlands) which would include a Silvermoon (and Exodar by extension) revamp, the fact that those two places are still trapped in the TBC era (and technically exist the outland world server) is frankly silly, even if they have to be remade on the eastern kingsdoms and kalidor world spaces seeing Silvermoon and the Exodar as actual proper cities would be great. with the western half of Silvermoon rebuilt, the dead scar & ghostlands recovered somewhat and various other changes to reflect the passage of time since TBC, perhaps the exodar could become a more karabor esque temple city since the Draenei have been on Azeroth for what 10 years and they're still living in a repurposed wreckage or barring that perhaps a city developed exterior of the exodar

    Same would also happen for Gilneas, Ruins of Lordaeron and Hyjal (as the new night elf capital)
    Last edited by Imperator4321; 2020-12-09 at 12:48 AM.

  10. #470
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    It's one thing to support the elves of the alliance, like asking for better and more customizations. another thing is to ask to steal the capitals of the elves of the horde.
    that is not supporting the elves of the alliance, that is attacking the elves of the horde and obviously we are not going to like you to attack us.
    You don't see where I'm coming from and where my heart is either.

    While on the horde, the blood elves and the Nightborne cannot be or rather should not be the alliance high elves and kaldorei civilization they were introduced as and shown off as, nor have those things from their parent races if they are to remain on the horde like that (for thematic and identity reasons, lore and faction integrity etc).

    If you want them meaningful with infrastructure and cool assets, they need to change, they must stop being high elves with different name, or kaldorei civilization Highborne with a different name (and thinner bodies), and actually become something new unrelated to them. They should also build new new capital cities and structures that are different , reflecting their new character which should be more horde like or different enough from the high elves and kaldorei - the naga are a good example of something that's different enough - they need to do something different. It can be amazing and beautiful too, but it must not be the high elves or the kaldorei civilization.

    If that is what you like about the blood elves and Nightborne - then what you are really liking is the high elves and the Kaldorei civilization. Not the horde.
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2020-12-09 at 12:59 AM.
    Valewalker Farodin: "Magic has long been a vice of the elves. It shaped us, and lifted us out of the darkness - but without balance, it also threatens to unmake us."

    My long replies often repeat info to make sure: You get all the info I have, It is clear and complete, in case you didn't actually read the first one. New readers have context at hand and are reminded of the point

  11. #471
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    You don't see where I'm coming from and where my heart is either.

    While on the horde, the blood elves and the Nightborne cannot be or rather should not be the alliance high elves and kaldorei civilization they were introduced as and shown off as, nor have those things from their parent races if they are to remain on the horde like that (for thematic and identity reasons, lore and faction integrity etc).

    If you want them meaningful with infrastructure and cool assets, they need to change, they must stop being high elves with different name, or kaldorei civilization Highborne with a different name (and thinner bodies), and actually become something new unrelated to them. They should also build new new capital cities and structures that are different , reflecting their new character which should be more horde like or different enough from the high elves and kaldorei - the naga are a good example of something that's different enough - they need to do something different. It can be amazing and beautiful too, but it must not be the high elves or the kaldorei civilization.

    If that is what you like about the blood elves and Nightborne - then what you are really liking is the high elves and the Kaldorei civilization. Not the horde.
    The "Kaldorei Civilization" (as in their ancient empire) you talk about stopped existing in any meaningful way as a part of modern kaldorei society after the War of the Ancients and the Sundering, The Kaldorei as a people forcibly excised arcane magic and highborne culture from their society because the reckless use of arcane magic and the highborne indulgent and extravagent lifestyle led their people to near destruction, they choose to abandon those parts of their culture and dedicated their new society to druidic beliefs involving harmonous living with the natural world, instead of building extravegent cities like Zin-Azshari and Suramar they lived in simplier places built in harmony with nature (just look at what darnassus was like mainly wooden buildings with only two larger stone ones the temple and the warriors terrace and this was their capital).

    Those that continued their Highborne lifestyle and practice of arcane magic were either exiled under pain of death if they refused and became the blood elves who diverged biologically (from the magic of the sunwell) and culturally from the Kaldorei or were remote or isolated such as the Shen'dalar and Nightborne of Suramar (and Nightborne also changed into a distinct form of elf seperate from their previous night elven forms by the Nightwell). The Shen'dralar were allowed back into Kaldorei after 10,000 years and even then they are still looked down upon and distrusted, even those who choose to learn from the Shen'dralar are outcasted by former friends and family the Kaldorei allowing the Shen'dralar back into their society doesn't represent any great shift in their society of them reclaiming them arcane or highborne heritage. they are a small, lookded down upon and distrusted minority of their society (same way warlocks are treated in other azeroth societies). This isn't even some history that no modern-night elf remembers the same leaders who exiled the Highborne still lead the night elves today.

    The Night Elves as a people never will and never should have the Highborne (and by extension the arcane) be a major part of their identity as a race because the Night Elves as per their history, culture and interactions with other races (especially with blood elves and nightborne) Rejected the culture and practices of the Highborne, If you can't accept that the version of the Kaldorei you seemingly want (an urban dwelling, arcane using, high elf esque society) only existed historically as the Kaldorei empire to show what the modern Kaldorei rejected as people then theres no point in discussing the Kaldorei with you because what you want for the Kaldorei wouldn't help their identity it would destroy their identity to replace it with something they were never intended to represent.
    Last edited by Imperator4321; 2020-12-09 at 01:35 AM.

  12. #472
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    You don't see where I'm coming from and where my heart is either.

    While on the horde, the blood elves and the Nightborne cannot be or rather should not be the alliance high elves and kaldorei civilization they were introduced as and shown off as, nor have those things from their parent races if they are to remain on the horde like that (for thematic and identity reasons, lore and faction integrity etc).

    If you want them meaningful with infrastructure and cool assets, they need to change, they must stop being high elves with different name, or kaldorei civilization Highborne with a different name (and thinner bodies), and actually become something new unrelated to them. They should also build new new capital cities and structures that are different , reflecting their new character which should be more horde like or different enough from the high elves and kaldorei - the naga are a good example of something that's different enough - they need to do something different. It can be amazing and beautiful too, but it must not be the high elves or the kaldorei civilization.

    If that is what you like about the blood elves and Nightborne - then what you are really liking is the high elves and the Kaldorei civilization. Not the horde.
    Please I ask you once again to stop naming elven races that are not part of this thread.
    the thalassian of the horde and the alliance are already different, the blood / high elves of the horde are more traditional and the void / high elves of the alliance who are building a new civilization with the void.

  13. #473
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    Please I ask you once again to stop naming elven races that are not part of this thread.
    the thalassian of the horde and the alliance are already different, the blood / high elves of the horde are more traditional and the void / high elves of the alliance who are building a new civilization with the void.
    Just ignore the night elf/borne elf reference if it bothers you so much.


    If blood elves are to remain prominent on the horde, they need to stop being high elves and become something different enough from their high elven roots and the alliance, preferably something closer to what the core horde races stand for.. either this happens or they remain like they are now, unchanged (i.e. high elves in all but name) but diminish greatly so their alliance-ness has a much smaller effect on how the horde appears.

    In both cases I feel they should lose Silvermoon and Quel'thalas, but in the first case, they should build something new that's different from the high elven architecture and very alliancey elven way of doing things. I don't mind this being amazing or beautiful, it just shouldn't be high elven and shouldn't feel alliance.

    In the other scenario that they remain unchanged from currently I.e. high elven in all but name, they shouldn't be prominent on the horde like this and not in the manner they are right now. They should be a remnant group having lost Silvermoon and Quel'thalas.
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2020-12-09 at 04:18 AM.
    Valewalker Farodin: "Magic has long been a vice of the elves. It shaped us, and lifted us out of the darkness - but without balance, it also threatens to unmake us."

    My long replies often repeat info to make sure: You get all the info I have, It is clear and complete, in case you didn't actually read the first one. New readers have context at hand and are reminded of the point

  14. #474
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Just ignore the reference if it bothers you so much.


    If blood elves are to remain prominent on the horde, they need to stop being high elves and become something different enough from their high elven roots and the alliance, preferably something closer to what the core horde races stand for.. either that or diminish greatly so their alliance-ness is has a much smaller effect on how the horde appears.

    In both cases I feel they should lose Silvermoon and Quel'thalas, but in the first case, they should build something new that's different from the high elven architecture and very alliancey elven way of doing things. I dont mind this bei g amazing or beautiful, it just shouldnt be high elven and shouldnt feel alliance.

    In the other scenario that they remain high elven in all but name, they shouldn't be prominent on the horde like this and not in the manner they are right now. They should be a remnant group having lost Silvermoon and Quel'thalas.
    What do you understand by being prominent? because blood elves are not in the least I did not see any blood elf in any CGI cinematic from TBC to give an example.

    if for you being prominent is simply existing as it is now then we have very different concepts of what it is to be prominent. orcs, trolls, forsaken are much more prominent to me.

    well I think that you and I have very different ideas and that we will reach no agreement so I think it is better to end this debate

  15. #475
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    --- snip ---
    Excuse us, Moderator, but could this message please be reinforced, plus state the spamming of what will irritate Blood Elf fans
    Last edited by Aucald; 2020-12-09 at 01:43 PM.

  16. #476
    Herald of the Titans Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Let's not forget Silvermoon has been Horde for way longer than it was on the Alliance of Lordaeron (8-9 years vs. 2 years) and it was like just 20 seconds on the Grand Alliance before Jaina did her thing
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    I make Warcraft 3 Reforged custom models that intends to fill the gaps in the Reforged campaign

  17. #477
    Ravenmoon.. you are to predickable. You always end in sorry I am just passionate blabla.

    No you are just annoying.

  18. #478
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Reiterating the original thread warning as it's been awhile: let's not veer off-topic here, this thread is about Blood Elves primarily - let's keep the discussion focused on them as opposed to Night Elves, Nightborne, or Frostwolves from here on out.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  19. #479
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Reiterating the original thread warning as it's been awhile: let's not veer off-topic here, this thread is about Blood Elves primarily - let's keep the discussion focused on them as opposed to Night Elves, Nightborne, or Frostwolves from here on out.
    thank you!!

  20. #480
    Mechagnome Thalassian Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imperator4321 View Post
    Aside from Alleria i don't any of the Alliance leadership really cares about taking Quel'Thalas for ideological reasons, Logistically it's not bordering any Alliance territories (plaguelands are neutral and controlled by the Argent Crusade), isn't coveting any major resources and isn't geographically important aside from maybe as a harbour to Northrend (but is the alliance really ferrying many supplies from the eastern kingdoms to northrend now that WoLK is done) really reclaiming Gilneas or any of the other lost Human kingdoms is more important to the Alliance than Quel'thalas
    Well, one primary reason for taking Quel'Thalas would be that it is the last Horde hub in the Eastern Kingdoms. But, you are correct, there are presumably higher priorities for the Alliance in the EKs.

    I bring up the coveting of Quel'Thalas because people - particularly high/void elf fans - now fantasise about Quel'Thalas' annexation to be the cherry atop their Alliance Thalassian cake.

    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    I am a farstrider fan too, and I give lots of lore tidbits also.
    Well, I was only reacting to the nearest page or so, so I had no way of knowing that. But, I'm glad you're a fan of my favourite group too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    the first capital of the horde in azeroth was stormwind

    on the other point I think it is a good place because it is wide enough to be a focal point
    Definitely

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