The Blood Elves discussion thread

[Tanaria]

snip

the problem here is you waffle on about fairness for the Alliance Elves, but not wanting to give the Horde Elves anything by comparison.

No, Blood Elves should get their tattoos, like Rommath in reference to the returned Sunfury Magisters. They also get runic-like faces and beards.
Void Elves can have warpaint like Alleria. (Not tattoos like the Sin'dorei, but warpaint instead.)

No matter what - regardless of the Sin'dorei stance, you'd still be against giving them features that you think, don't look right, when actual Sin'dorei fans will tell you that your wrong.

Vaeden and I disagree on many things, but both he and I (Void Elf fan and Blood Elf fan) agree that the Sin'dorei should not go without core features that were even on the TBC box art.

[Vaedan]

No, Blood Elves should get their tattoos, like Rommath in reference to the returned Sunfury Magisters. They also get runic-like faces and beards.
Void Elves can have warpaint like Alleria. (Not tattoos like the Sin'dorei, but warpaint instead.)

As for me, it's a fair trade. Void elves could have warpaints and then their own features, like void scars. I think they could get even tattoos, but rather something eldritch, building more their otherwordly vibe, while blood elves can have runic tattoos. Both groups get their tattoos, both groups gets something unique.

No matter what - regardless of the Sin'dorei stance, you'd still be against giving them features that you think, don't look right, when actual Sin'dorei fans will tell you that your wrong.

The problem is that some Alliance elf fans are way too greedy in their expectations and demands. Some are stucked in old times when Elf = Alliance, but that is no longer true. I think Alliance elves should definitely get their own capitals, but not at the cost of blood elves losing Silvermoon or Nightborne losing Suramar. Same goes to customizations and basicaly everything else. There is enough space for all four elf groups to have their own spotlight and their own identity. While I also think it's fair that Alliance got their high elves, pro-helfers should already be happy for what they got. It's enough.

Vaeden and I disagree on many things, but both he and I (Void Elf fan and Blood Elf fan) agree that the Sin'dorei should not go without core features that were even on the TBC box art.

I enjoyed some of our discussions and yes, sometimes we agreed, sometimes we did not. I'm also blood elf fan, it's one of my favourite races, but it does not mean I want to see them on the Alliance. It's not where they belong anymore and I don't want void elves to be just copy of blood elves either. That means that void elves can't have everything and some features should stay exclusive for blood elves.

[Mace]

the problem here is you waffle on about fairness for the Alliance Elves, but not wanting to give the Horde Elves anything by comparison.

No, Blood Elves should get their tattoos, like Rommath in reference to the returned Sunfury Magisters. They also get runic-like faces and beards.
Void Elves can have warpaint like Alleria. (Not tattoos like the Sin'dorei, but warpaint instead.)

No matter what - regardless of the Sin'dorei stance, you'd still be against giving them features that you think, don't look right, when actual Sin'dorei fans will tell you that your wrong.

Vaeden and I disagree on many things, but both he and I (Void Elf fan and Blood Elf fan) agree that the Sin'dorei should not go without core features that were even on the TBC box art.

And night elves shouldn't go without core features and aspects of their race either. Especially if they are very much in play and quite popular amongst the fans, more should be done.

But then tattoos and scars were not popular amongst blood elf fans.. I know this because when a few were crying out for them, a big voice kept stamping them down insisting majestic and arcane options reflecting high society instead be prioritised.

You the blood elf fans rejected the calls for tattoos and scars others were making.. and therefore you didn't get them.

now void elves get to look completely high elven, you're like, I want tattoos and scars now.

Make up your mind.

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oh, and you have every right to want to have tattoos and scars, don't let my observations stop you.

Blood elves have every right to them and any feature that has been in their lore before, whether it was phased out or not. I am just pointing out to you that it was phased out, and that fan request and insistence is part of the reason why. Blood elf fans, wanted to be more high elven, like the original high elves of old. Blizzard also felt that.. this is why it is so.

But yeh, go for tattoos and scars. Blood elves can surely have them. Especially fi leaders and poster boys have them.

[Thalassian Bob]

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Most races have tattoo options anyway. What sets them apart is not whether one race is tattoo worthy or not, but the type and quality of the tattoo

Yet not everyone has them. Thalassians do have a precedence. So it means both high/void elves and bloods can have them. Except this seems to be a thing phased out of blood elves intentionally, but revived in high/void elves with Alleria.

Blizzard can change their mind off course, but tattoos do fit a wilder more dangerous or rough and ready group. Which Illidari, night elves, high elves and void elves have major facets of their groups that tick all those boxes, while blood elves don’t, blizz having removed those from them in TBC

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Bnb Lois elf community seems split. Some where fighting very hard for rugged Farstrider customisations, tattoos and beards. Others strongly said, the look is majesty for blood elves and that should be prioritised.

Blizzard responded. Void elves got beards and messier hairstyles, Alleria got tattoos, blood elves got lots of jewellery and frills.

Just saying.

I would disagree with the assessment that high/void elves are more suited to the "wilder" Thalassian look. I think Thalassians on both sides of the faction divide have a decent claim to the elegant or more rugged look. After all, both the Sin and Ren'dorei have magisters and rangers among their ranks. I think it would be boring to pigeonhole either sub-race into being the fancy or scruffy group. It all depends on class aesthetic. Farstriders are rough and ready and less concerned with their appearance than a Machiavellian magister and they're more likely to want to put on war paint or sport tattoos like Alleria.

It also should not be forgotten that the blood elves are the ones who had to fight tooth and nail to stop Quel'Thalas from collapsing under the undead tide. Many would be scarred and maimed and many magic users carved runes into their skin, as seen on the TBC box art, perhaps to make accessing what little arcane energy they had access to in those early days somewhat easier.

I think blood and void elves should have access to customisation that allows them to feel like a Magister or a Farstrider or anything in between.

[Three Faced Goddess]

I would disagree with the assessment that high/void elves are more suited to the "wilder" Thalassian look. I think Thalassians on both sides of the faction divide have a decent claim to the elegant or more rugged look. After all, both the Sin and Ren'dorei have magisters and rangers among their ranks. I think it would be boring to pigeonhole either sub-race into being the fancy or scruffy group. It all depends on class aesthetic. Farstriders are rough and ready and less concerned with their appearance than a Machiavellian magister and they're more likely to want to put on war paint or sport tattoos like Alleria.

It also should not be forgotten that the blood elves are the ones who had to fight tooth and nail to stop Quel'Thalas from collapsing under the undead tide. Many would be scarred and maimed and many magic users carved runes into their skin, as soon on the TBC box art, perhaps to make accessing what little arcane energy they had access to in those early days somewhat easier.

I think blood and void elves should have access to customisation that allows them to feel like a Magister or a Farstrider or anything in between.

You summed up how I feel perfectly. I'm tired of the one dimensional vain and vapid stereotype some people want to push on the Blood Elves (or any race). Blood Elves are a lot more than just pretty elves who wear jewelry and despite what someone above claimed I was part of a group of people who petitioned (so to speak) Blizzard during the SL beta for scars and tattoos as well as rougher options for Blood Elves.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

I would disagree with the assessment that high/void elves are more suited to the "wilder" Thalassian look. I think Thalassians on both sides of the faction divide have a decent claim to the elegant or more rugged look. After all, both the Sin and Ren'dorei have magisters and rangers among their ranks. I think it would be boring to pigeonhole either sub-race into being the fancy or scruffy group. It all depends on class aesthetic. Farstriders are rough and ready and less concerned with their appearance than a Machiavellian magister and they're more likely to want to put on war paint or sport tattoos like Alleria.

It also should not be forgotten that the blood elves are the ones who had to fight tooth and nail to stop Quel'Thalas from collapsing under the undead tide. Many would be scarred and maimed and many magic users carved runes into their skin, as soon on the TBC box art, perhaps to make accessing what little arcane energy they had access to in those early days somewhat easier.

I think blood and void elves should have access to customisation that allows them to feel like a Magister or a Farstrider or anything in between.

Honestly I don't get the pushes to pigeonhole races into a specific archetype, it's actively removing nuance in order to generalize the individuals of a race and that's like, the opposite of choice?

It's such a weird and inorganic way of pushing for identity, and it's hard to see it as anything but dumbing down the races to a couple of attributes. And I really end up thinking this push to make races more "unique" would really just end in making them into easy stereotypes.

[Thalassian Bob]

You summed up how I feel perfectly. I'm tired of the one dimensional vain and vapid stereotype some people want to push on the Blood Elves (or any race). Blood Elves are a lot more than just pretty elves who wear jewelry and despite what someone above claimed I was part of a group of people who petitioned (so to speak) Blizzard during the SL beta for scars and tattoos as well as rougher options for Blood Elves.

I'm glad you agree! I've no doubt there's plenty of Sin'dorei who loath the idea of having to rub shoulders with the Horde and see their alliance with the "monstrous" races of Kalimdor as nothing more than an alliance of convenience and who spend all their time in Silvermoon fawning over tomes and mirrors. But, I also think that there would be a number of more sylvan Thalassians, particularly the Farstriders, who love being able to spend time in places like Thunderbluff, exchanging techniques and stories with tauren or Darkspear hunters. All the while probably sporting kickass tattoos, chipped ears, scars and an abundance of twigs in their unkempt hair!

Honestly I don't get the pushes to pigeonhole races into a specific archetype, it's actively removing nuance in order to generalize the individuals of a race and that's like, the opposite of choice?

It's such a weird and inorganic way of pushing for identity, and it's hard to see it as anything but dumbing down the races to a couple of attributes. And I really end up thinking this push to make races more "unique" would really just end in making them into easy stereotypes.

Agreed! I would vastly prefer Blizzard giving players sufficient customisation options to play up to racial stereotypes or subvert them! Enable players to define their own aesthetic for their individual characters!

[Tanaria]

And night elves shouldn't go without core features and aspects of their race either. Especially if they are very much in play and quite popular amongst the fans, more should be done.

But then tattoos and scars were not popular amongst blood elf fans.. I know this because when a few were crying out for them, a big voice kept stamping them down insisting majestic and arcane options reflecting high society instead be prioritised.

You the blood elf fans rejected the calls for tattoos and scars others were making.. and therefore you didn't get them.

now void elves get to look completely high elven, you're like, I want tattoos and scars now.

Make up your mind.

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oh, and you have every right to want to have tattoos and scars, don't let my observations stop you.

Blood elves have every right to them and any feature that has been in their lore before, whether it was phased out or not. I am just pointing out to you that it was phased out, and that fan request and insistence is part of the reason why. Blood elf fans, wanted to be more high elven, like the original high elves of old. Blizzard also felt that.. this is why it is so.

But yeh, go for tattoos and scars. Blood elves can surely have them. Especially fi leaders and poster boys have them.

No - what you refer to is when you and @ravenmoon were begging for Silvermoon, Lordaeron and the Broken Isles to go fully Alliance and for the Sin'dorei, Shal'dorei, Forsaken and Highmountain Tauren to be left with nothing.

You posed the idea of Sin'dorei being developed in 2 expansions after they lost Quel'Thalas, to being more ragged and vagabond-like - which is where your ideas of Blood Elf society revolving around Fel and Death, came into play. You never said anything about "tattoos", just that Sin'dorei should be homeless and be developed in 2 expansions later, with the Horde focus only being on Orcs, Trolls and Tauren, with embarrassment suggestions of Horde Pandaren lore as well. (I mean, it still makes me laugh that you thought/still think that Horde players jump for joy at Pandaren lore.)

Blood Elves should have everything that is related to their race, aside from the "Void" based stuff. Everything else, from their eye colour to runes and tattoos is on the table, since everything like that relates to them as a race. The Grand Magister of Quel'Thalas has tattoos and maybe, he should be given facial runes as well - then Blood Elves can have their majestic Magi and Warlocks, but with runes and tattoos that are relative to their section within the Quel'Thalas society.

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The problem is that some Alliance elf fans are way too greedy in their expectations and demands. Some are stucked in old times when Elf = Alliance, but that is no longer true. I think Alliance elves should definitely get their own capitals, but not at the cost of blood elves losing Silvermoon or Nightborne losing Suramar. Same goes to customizations and basicaly everything else. There is enough space for all four elf groups to have their own spotlight and their own identity. While I also think it's fair that Alliance got their high elves, pro-helfers should already be happy for what they got. It's enough.

I agree. Alliance can have their own Elf-cities, at the same time that Silvermoon and Quel'Thalas is revamped.

I don't think Suramar is going to be expanded anytime soon and that likely means, Void Elves not getting much either.

But Night Elves have their city on Hyjal and Blood Elves have a revamped Silvermoon. Everyone wins because the 2 major elf-races have got their cities.
Yes, Nightborne have the Nighthold and Void Elves have very little, but I don't think allied race starter locations are on the list to be developed.

[Mace]

I would disagree with the assessment that high/void elves are more suited to the "wilder" Thalassian look. I think Thalassians on both sides of the faction divide have a decent claim to the elegant or more rugged look. After all, both the Sin and Ren'dorei have magisters and rangers among their ranks. I think it would be boring to pigeonhole either sub-race into being the fancy or scruffy group. It all depends on class aesthetic. Farstriders are rough and ready and less concerned with their appearance than a Machiavellian magister and they're more likely to want to put on war paint or sport tattoos like Alleria.

I agree with you, though i stand by what I said. Both sides do indeed have a decent claim to the elegant and more rugged look.

So it is for night elves, it is the same argument that got so much resistance from this blood elf loving crowd, which now seem to accept it when it is something they want on the line.

I'm simply pointing out the direction blizzard has taken between the two groups, but actually feel in the span of their lore, both have claims. I can't support the claim for night elven Highborne and more visualisation of that for the playable group because it is part of their lore, while dismissing the same claim for blood elf tattoos and scars because the direction has moved away.

Yet I must point out the direction, while secretly agreeing with you, in the hope you may see the argument for the night elves too that this crowd has long been indifferent to or opposed to. It is the same argument.

But I do stand by my assessment high/void elves are more suited to the look, but only on the basis of where they currently are in their storyline, rather than as a whole, and it is more suited, not "only" suited which is what people like Rhlor and Tanaria mistakenly think I am saying..

Just because void /high elves are more suited, does not mean blood elves shouldn't have them, nor does it mean blood elves aren't suited at all. Being less suited, or it not being common doesn't mean it shouldn't exist.

Do note I am pointing out things based on what blizzard is giving, not what I think it should go.

I am playing the same role this very same crowd played me and my buds when we were making the case for night elves.

It also should not be forgotten that the blood elves are the ones who had to fight tooth and nail to stop Quel'Thalas from collapsing under the undead tide. Many would be scarred and maimed and many magic users carved runes into their skin, as seen on the TBC box art, perhaps to make accessing what little arcane energy they had access to in those early days somewhat easier.

I think blood and void elves should have access to customisation that allows them to feel like a Magister or a Farstrider or anything in between.

Soap box aside, void elves and high elves were not any less loyal, they have a different perspective, void elves are at core blood elves who have recently been driven out, they fought as blood elves initially so even if you reject the claims of high elves, void elves say something different. But I hope you begin to realise the point is not blood elves have never had tattoos nor scars therefore shouldn't have them, it was that blizzard had moved blood elves away from that TFT to TBC initially rougher more hardcore, tattooed hardened group they seemed to be headed, and filed them back to high elves. pursuing a more pristine look, opting for the rougher look to go to void elves when they did that, and on that basis, void elves/high elves were going to get that instead of blood elves.

It's not o say that blood elves have no right to that look, they do, , nor is it to say that they can't change direction or grow broader in scope, they can. The question I asked was should they?

You see the argument on how versatile the elven groups should be or generalised shifts all the time, now because they want tattoos and scars and it's more the high/void elven thing, this blood elf fan crowd are fine about generalisations and opening up to it where previously they wanted their niche exclusive, yet that was the same argument the night elven fans who loved the kaldorei pre-sundering side of things. This Belf fan crowd were arguing vehemently against kaldorei alliance group showing the arcane mastery and majesty side of the night elves, because they felt blood elves grabbed that niche, despite my protests that we shouldn't draw the line on that basis. Blood elves were the Thalassian race and now had their own identity apart from the night elves, , saying night elves shouldn't show the Kaldorei pre-sundering side or their majesty and arcane mastery because blood elves had that was like saying humans shouldn't because blood elves had it (since they were now two different races (and by races I mean faction races.. not together, separate - having a connection, but they have their own development and story, links and commonalities but different groups with their own history pertaining to them when their identity started.. For the blood elves, that starts initially in the exile as high elves, but takes on this new vein after Wc3, for night elves, this starts in their genesis, and encapsulates both the pre-sundering and post sundering eras, whether you're a Darnassian, Suramar night elf (moonguard or those who became nightborne) or Shen'dralar)

Yet in, their desperation to covet all things magical , they resisted that vehemently when it suited them. Now the argument has shifted, and with the opening up of high elves, they have finally surrounded the idea that each elven group is a par t of the whole, because they want beards and tattoos whether void elves/high elves have them or not, which is now recognising each elven group as their own people, with their own lore and customs and story that entitles them to have the things that their culture and the breadth of their race entitle them too. Therefore they now feel it's okay for both void/high elves and blood elves to have beards and tattoos, regardless of whether the lore makes it feel more of void/high elf thing or not.

Simply put: blood elves are their own group, they had tattoos via the sunfury, and some like Lor'themar can choose to keep scars, therefore blood elves should have those options regardless of what is good or bad or right or wrong for void/high elves and regardless of whether void/high elves have them or not

THIS IS EXACTLY what I've been saying about night elves too.

When considering what night elves should have, we should follow their lore, because this is what fans like me do, we don't go.. "oh blood elves have the arcane elven thing and the city thing, therefore we are okay about night elves being forest only.. - no, (specially since blood elves also have a forest thig.. Quel'thalas is one massive forest remember). We see.. oh, forget about blood elves, they're on the other side of the world and have developed their own elven group.

Night elves have night elven arcane history, night elven great cities and civilizations in addition to a great druid tradition, we want to see the night elven version of these for night elves, regardless of whether blood elves have them or not. Great elven cities or cities are not the exclusive property of blood elves, nor is arcane magic, it is part of night elf lore too, and a major one too, even if the Darnasssians don't have much of it going on currently, and we'd like to see a proper version of this show up, regardless of whether blood elves have it or not, because blood elves are a different group of their own, even if they are elves.

And reading @The Banshee, @MyWholeLifeIsThunder , @Tanaria , @Rhlore and yourself, this is exactly what you are saying now you want or okay about blood elves getting beards and scars even if some fans feel they fit or are better suited to high/void elves, it doesn't matter, blood elves have a right to it, it's been proven it's a part of blood elf lore anyway, they should get them regardless of whether void/high elves do.

Same argument. The elven groups aren't one part of a whole, the way fans view them are as their own individual groups. Those who like night elves, want everything about them to happen, those who love void elves are passionate about them and want to see the elegance and majesty of the Thalassian Quel'dorei as well as the roguish, wayfarer wanderer side too, because it's part of the lore and because they love the race, they love all those aspects. Now some people only care one part of the race.. fair enough

Their are blood elf fans that only care for the arcane side
High elf fans that only care for the pre WC3 side of the high elves
Night elf fans that only care for the tree hugging side. or the Female amazonian warrior priest side


That's fine, you can have your favourite side, but these races have more to them than just the part you may like the most, and their are fans who want to see that reflected.. and should



So can we agree:

1. Blood elves should have tattoos, scars, rougher beards too
2. Void/high elves should have their version of tattoos, rougher beards, void effects
3. Night elves should have their star/arcane aspects, their full proper city that powerfully reflects the pre-sundering side of their race that is part of them and reflects their arcane origin.
4. Nightborne should have their glowy hands and feet, their conjured armour and their option for night elf ears too, because that was part of the NPC look they had going as part of their thing.


And none of this means they shouldn't have new things coming their way as they develop them.

• I love that night elves have the night warrior - but I'd hate for no arcane progress or druidic development to happen because of this
• Love that blood elves have the light development, but would hate if the Farstrider forest side or the majestic arcane side just stagnates.
• Love that nightborne have a new adventure with the horde, but would hate if the druidic valewalker side of the Arcan'dor just died (what about the Botanists, Farodin? - a huge part of what the Nightborne are supposed to be about now), or if they abandoned pursuing giving us more arcane options like a proper spellbalde for warriors and rogues like we saw.

Now do you see where I'm coming from? Each elven group is their own group, the story of the kaldorei , while it touches the Thalassians, is its own story, it has druidic and arcane bits it has every right to have shown and seen properly in that group regardless of what blood elves, Nightborne or void elves have.

By the same token, so are the blood elves, they're in Quel'thalas now, not the high/void elves - and whether they re-unite, share or never get together again, the blood elves are their own racial faction entitled ot beards and scars and tattoos, because they have their history with the sunfury, Illidan (this brought the tattoos), scars becuase they went through a hard period of a number of years in their struggles without the sunwell and magic to fix everything - so some would undoubtedly, like Lor'themar, keep their scars, and beards (would recovering addicts like restored Wretched care to be all neatly trimmed?) For totally different reasons than High/void elves, blood elves have a right to these things to be seen and reflected because it is part of their lore.

There are some people like @matrix123mko that want that fel element of the blood elves to be much bigger, he likes that, and it's part of blood elf lore, do we just eliminate all traces of the fel because some of us don't like that story ? most blood elvs may be healed form it, but some relish that power, there is a niche for that, and it should be there to reflect this side of the blood elves.

And in very similar fashion, their are enough night elves that would always follow Illidan's philosophy, and take up the fel to hunt demons and embody that side of the night elves that isn't part of the mainstream, but has been a very powerful and very well fleshed out and represented aspect of them.. regardless of whether the blood elves are sharing in the Illidari lore or not. The night elves have a part of that story that's very much part of their lore and should continue to have it represented.

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No - what you refer to is when you and @ravenmoon were begging for Silvermoon, Lordaeron and the Broken Isles to go fully Alliance and for the Sin'dorei, Shal'dorei, Forsaken and Highmountain Tauren to be left with nothing.

You posed the idea of Sin'dorei being developed in 2 expansions after they lost Quel'Thalas, to being more ragged and vagabond-like - which is where your ideas of Blood Elf society revolving around Fel and Death, came into play. You never said anything about "tattoos", just that Sin'dorei should be homeless and be developed in 2 expansions later, with the Horde focus only being on Orcs, Trolls and Tauren, with embarrassment suggestions of Horde Pandaren lore as well. (I mean, it still makes me laugh that you thought/still think that Horde players jump for joy at Pandaren lore.)

Blood Elves should have everything that is related to their race, aside from the "Void" based stuff. Everything else, from their eye colour to runes and tattoos is on the table, since everything like that relates to them as a race. The Grand Magister of Quel'Thalas has tattoos and maybe, he should be given facial runes as well - then Blood Elves can have their majestic Magi and Warlocks, but with runes and tattoos that are relative to their section within the Quel'Thalas society.

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I agree. Alliance can have their own Elf-cities, at the same time that Silvermoon and Quel'Thalas is revamped.

I don't think Suramar is going to be expanded anytime soon and that likely means, Void Elves not getting much either.

But Night Elves have their city on Hyjal and Blood Elves have a revamped Silvermoon. Everyone wins because the 2 major elf-races have got their cities.
Yes, Nightborne have the Nighthold and Void Elves have very little, but I don't think allied race starter locations are on the list to be developed.

Seriously, I was not part of that, and I don't remember wading into that discussion. Ravenmoon talked to me about it, but I don't remember coming on the forums to agree or disagree.

[Tanaria]

Seriously, I was not part of that, and I don't remember wading into that discussion. Ravenmoon talked to me about it, but I don't remember coming on the forums to agree or disagree.

Yes you were.
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...2#post52867262

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...5#post52864275

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Agreed! I would vastly prefer Blizzard giving players sufficient customisation options to play up to racial stereotypes or subvert them! Enable players to define their own aesthetic for their individual characters!

And a lot of races already allow for it, most noticeable examples being Night Elf and Forsaken IMO. You can go for a wild, leaves on hair, scars and warpain look on NE's, or fancy jewelry with a neat hairstyle for a more noble vibe. Same for Forsaken, than can go from messy zombies to elegant undead with elaborate hairstyles and little decay.

Like I have always say that if people want to force distinction let's then give warpaint to VE's because Alleria, but if it were up to me I'd go for more aesthetic overlap if it leads to more player choice, so I'd say warpaint for all thalassians.

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So can we agree:

1. Blood elves should have tattoos, scars, rougher beards too
2. Void/high elves should have their version of tattoos, rougher beards, void effects
3. Night elves should have their star/arcane aspects, their full proper city that powerfully reflects the pre-sundering side of their race that is part of them and reflects their arcane origin.
4. Nightborne should have their glowy hands and feet, their conjured armour and their option for night elf ears too, because that was part of the NPC look they had going as part of their thing.

This is what always betrays your point; you ALWAYS end up sneaking your own agenda, what *you* personally want, as the default that NE's should have.

Night Elves don't need a "full proper city that reflects the pre sundering side of their race". That's their PAST. What they need to represent in their city is their CURRENT relationship with the arcane. Suramar or a city like it JUST DOESN'T REPRESENT WHAT THE NIGHT ELVES ARE RIGHT NOW.

Yes, Highborne should be able to reclaim their heritage, I'd love a highborne district, but you can't apply that logic to ALL NIGHT ELVES, when most of them have moved PAST that chapter of their existence and prefer a more druidic and in touch with nature existence.

You constantly keep shoving the idea they should return back to represent their arcane origin as the default of their current society, and that's just Not What Night Elves Are.

Honestly if you think that Night Elves should have their Home City as Suramar or something like it, you just don't get Night Elves as a whole, and I am tired of entertaining otherwise. This conversation would be far more productive if you would accept that what you really care is the Highborne, and to stop trying to push all NE's into that aesthetic.

[Mace]

And a lot of races already allow for it, most noticeable examples being Night Elf and Forsaken IMO. You can go for a wild, leaves on hair, scars and warpain look on NE's, or fancy jewelry with a neat hairstyle for a more noble vibe. Same for Forsaken, than can go from messy zombies to elegant undead with elaborate hairstyles and little decay.

Like I have always say that if people want to force distinction let's then give warpaint to VE's because Alleria, but if it were up to me I'd go for more aesthetic overlap if it leads to more player choice, so I'd say warpaint for all thalassians.

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This is what always betrays your point; you ALWAYS end up sneaking your own agenda, what *you* personally want, as the default that NE's should have.

Night Elves don't need a "full proper city that reflects the pre sundering side of their race". That's their PAST. What they need to represent in their city is their CURRENT relationship with the arcane. Suramar or a city like it JUST DOESN'T REPRESENT WHAT THE NIGHT ELVES ARE RIGHT NOW.

Yes, Highborne should be able to reclaim their heritage, I'd love a highborne district, but you can't apply that logic to ALL NIGHT ELVES, when most of them have moved PAST that chapter of their existence and prefer a more druidic and in touch with nature existence.

You constantly keep shoving the idea they should return back to represent their arcane origin as the default of their current society, and that's just Not What Night Elves Are.

Honestly if you think that Night Elves should have their Home City as Suramar or something like it, you just don't get Night Elves as a whole, and I am tired of entertaining otherwise. This conversation would be far more productive if you would accept that what you really care is the Highborne, and to stop trying to push all NE's into that aesthetic.

I was making a point.

You are advocating the pointless segmentation of the elves for certain things common to them all and advocating people have the choice to have what they want especially when there is lore that can support that.


I was making the point (in the previous reply to Thalassian Bob) that if you agree with that then surely you should agree with the points Raven and I were making about the night elves 2 years ago. (It was not to slide in an "agenda". )

It’s the same argument, just focusing on different aspects.

Night elves have more than one aesthetic and encompass more than a Druidic forest vibe for their race and in their lore (tehre's arcane/civilziaiton, Elune, DHs). Wanting the playable race to have powerful visual representations of that in the current game and not just limited to the novels, whether in customisations or cities isn’t unreasonable by the same measure.

If void elves and high elves are better candidates for beards and tattoos based on the current story, does that mean blood elves can’t or shouldn’t have them because it’s not as common or big a thing or the vibe is different? Or should they have their own versions, incredibly beautiful or cool, but perhaps just not as numerous.


I wasn’t sneaking in an agenda, just pointing out to Thalassian Bob what the motivation of our night elf discussions were.

It’s the same thing. And I found it interesting that now I suggested a separation, and that one group should have something the other may be entitled but it shouldnT get (i.e. be exclusive to the opposite faction), no one of their fans want this, yet it’s the same argument.

If their argument is valid now (which it is) then so was mine 2 years ago and still is now if I cared to promote it.

Why anyone would want to oppose the Kaldorei on the alliance having the other aspects of their race represented visibly and visually is beyond me. Great night elven cities and arcane mastery is very much a part of the race, even if amongst the Darnassians it is a small thing.

Amongst the Darnassians, fel usage and the demon hunters are not a thing at all, yet they have representation, they have their own customisations, their architecture and buildings etc. And they have no representation amongst the Darnassians, but they are very much a part of night elf lore and are represented markedly in game.

I don’t see why anyone would oppose a similar thing for pre sundering and Kaldorei civilisation and arcane types either, whether it’s a big thing, small thing or no thing amongst the Darnassians, it is a night elf thing. Maybe small amongst the Darnassians, but is a huge part of the race, their history, who they are today, and the grating thing was moreso than demon hunting or druidism, this was the original core of the elves, and what got to me was that this was not a new thing tacked on, it's been in their story and make up from day one. So I really wanted to see a better job done.

But, look how poor Elune representation and visualisation has also been so far for that group right? And no one would argue that’s definitely a major part of the Darnassians, yet only the Druidic vibe was visualised until 8.1 when the night warrior was invented and now we saw a lot more visualisation of Elune amongst the night elves. So it's not unique to night elves - (and yes the arcane and pre-sundering civilization finally showed up in 7.0, late, but for alliance fans, when the Nightborne went horde, it meant that they still wanted their group to have its share. Just like should void elves get beards and tattoos, its only right that blood elves get their share and version.

And are night elves the only ones suffering from partial eclipse (i.e. exposure??) no. Look how shoddy Farstrider visualisation and representation is amongst the blood elves and it took them 4 expansions before they started showing the light which prior to TBC, was an equally powerful part of the Thalassian’s magical mastery as the arcane was. Priest and Mage were what they were famous for. The good thing is that they can explore these previously less exposed core parts of blood elves (like the Light and the Farstirders) and of night elves (like Elune and the arcane/civilisation) down the line to interest and wow the fans and create new lore and developments new visualisations too.. they didn't show everything at once, this is also okay, but if you've been waiting 14 years for something, you kinda want it now.

The Fans' Cry
We who love the lore of the race want to see those things show up very well, in addition to new things. How disappointing it was to see half the community heartlessly opposed to it out what I can only guess was faction spite.

Can't you see I don’t have an agenda. I was just a fan that wanted to see more of his favourite race that the lore written (but not shown) had excited him about.

And so the argument still stands. Although I’m not going to be advocating for it any longer.

If I offended you in the past, or my brother, apologies , at least for my part, it was passion. Passion sorely misplace I see now and not worth causing offence to any living human being over.

Let’s be at peace irl. And fight on the BGs in game only

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Yes you were.
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...2#post52867262

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...5#post52864275

I probably briefly waded in as Raven pestered me to show some support, but really, that was his conversation, and he was driving it, you and Rhlor seemed so offended at the thought, our impression was that you weren't even seriously considering it, but that's ancient history. Raven isn't very happy when people don'ts ee his points, which is exactly like you. and you both are quite happy spinning back and forth endlessly. whiles for my part these days, I can't be bothered. Although this discussion has somewhat stirred the aimless rebel in me.

Time to bow out really. As I've made my point. Take it or leave it.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

SNIP

It's always beyond me how you can be this verbose yet say so little, be direct and to the point and be done with the pointless fluff.

I don’t see why anyone would oppose a similar thing for pre sundering and Kaldorei civilisation and arcane types either, whether it’s a big thing, small thing or no thing amongst the Darnassians, it is a night elf thing. Maybe small amongst the Darnassians, but is a huge part of the race, their history, who they are today, and the grating thing was moreso than demon hunting or druidism, this was the original core of the elves, and what got to me was that this was not a new thing tacked on, it's been in their story and make up from day one. So I really wanted to see a better job done.

It's only in like your 6th paragraph that you actually say what you believe. Every time one has an argument with you we have to dig through piles of nothing.

I don't know how else to keep saying that "arcane" stopped being a cornerstone of Night Elf culture over 10.000 years ago, and only recently has made a return through the Highborne. Their past has not the same weight than their present. It WAS a huge part of their culture, but it no longer is.

And again, the problem is not that they should have an arcane aspect; the problem is that you keep pushing for the idea that arcane and imperial aesthetics should be the default of NE society, when they have long past moved from it. They have focused on druidism now for the double of time than they were an arcane based empire.

The Fans' Cry
We who love the lore of the race want to see those things show up very well, in addition to new things. How disappointing it was to see half the community heartlessly opposed to it out what I can only guess was faction spite.

Can't you see I don’t have an agenda. I was just a fan that wanted to see more of his favourite race that the lore written (but not shown) had excited him about.

Nah man, the problem has always been that you want YOUR version of what the Night Elves SHOULD be to happen, screw every other night elf fan that doesn't adhere to that. It's almost mocking that you see yourself as this defender of Night Elf lore when you really don't even care about what they have been since Wa3. You don't like Night Elves, you like their backstory. Which wouldn't be an issue if you had any respect for NE's and understood that they can have an arcane ASPECT, but not DEFAULT to it. When what you want them to be is in detriment to what they are, do you really like Night Elves as they are?

You are advocating the pointless segmentation of the elves for certain things common to them all and advocating people have the choice to have what they want especially when there is lore that can support that.

No, don't twist it. What I have been vocally against is your crusade to defaulting the Night Elves into an arcane based, imperial aesthetic, civilization. You keep pushing the night elves to reclaim a past that we have NO INDICATION they want to reclaim as a race, the Highborne would be the only exception, so great, let's have a Highborne distruct.

But again, let's not pretend that your opinion isn't rooted in anything but you liking the Imperial Age of the Kaldorei and wanting to push that on every other Night Elf fan, to the point we can't even talk about them without you having to bring that up.

[Mace]

It's always beyond me how you can be this verbose yet say so little, be direct and to the point and be done with the pointless fluff.



It's only in like your 6th paragraph that you actually say what you believe. Every time one has an argument with you we have to dig through piles of nothing.

I don't know how else to keep saying that "arcane" stopped being a cornerstone of Night Elf culture over 10.000 years ago, and only recently has made a return through the Highborne. Their past has not the same weight than their present. It WAS a huge part of their culture, but it no longer is.

And again, the problem is not that they should have an arcane aspect; the problem is that you keep pushing for the idea that arcane and imperial aesthetics should be the default of NE society, when they have long past moved from it. They have focused on druidism now for the double of time than they were an arcane based empire.



Nah man, the problem has always been that you want YOUR version of what the Night Elves SHOULD be to happen, screw every other night elf fan that doesn't adhere to that. It's almost mocking that you see yourself as this defender of Night Elf lore when you really don't even care about what they have been since Wa3. You don't like Night Elves, you like their backstory. Which wouldn't be an issue if you had any respect for NE's and understood that they can have an arcane ASPECT, but not DEFAULT to it. When what you want them to be is in detriment to what they are, do you really like Night Elves as they are?



No, don't twist it. What I have been vocally against is your crusade to defaulting the Night Elves into an arcane based, imperial aesthetic, civilization. You keep pushing the night elves to reclaim a past that we have NO INDICATION they want to reclaim as a race, the Highborne would be the only exception, so great, let's have a Highborne distruct.

But again, let's not pretend that your opinion isn't rooted in anything but you liking the Imperial Age of the Kaldorei and wanting to push that on every other Night Elf fan, to the point we can't even talk about them without you having to bring that up.

Howz this for brevity. I’ve said my peace. I’ve nothing more to add.

[Rhlor]

I agree with you, though i stand by what I said. Both sides do indeed have a decent claim to the elegant and more rugged look.

So it is for night elves, it is the same argument that got so much resistance from this blood elf loving crowd, which now seem to accept it when it is something they want on the line.

I'm simply pointing out the direction blizzard has taken between the two groups, but actually feel in the span of their lore, both have claims. I can't support the claim for night elven Highborne and more visualisation of that for the playable group because it is part of their lore, while dismissing the same claim for blood elf tattoos and scars because the direction has moved away.

Yet I must point out the direction, while secretly agreeing with you, in the hope you may see the argument for the night elves too that this crowd has long been indifferent to or opposed to. It is the same argument.

But I do stand by my assessment high/void elves are more suited to the look, but only on the basis of where they currently are in their storyline, rather than as a whole, and it is more suited, not "only" suited which is what people like Rhlor and Tanaria mistakenly think I am saying..

Just because void /high elves are more suited, does not mean blood elves shouldn't have them, nor does it mean blood elves aren't suited at all. Being less suited, or it not being common doesn't mean it shouldn't exist.

Do note I am pointing out things based on what blizzard is giving, not what I think it should go.

I am playing the same role this very same crowd played me and my buds when we were making the case for night elves.



Soap box aside, void elves and high elves were not any less loyal, they have a different perspective, void elves are at core blood elves who have recently been driven out, they fought as blood elves initially so even if you reject the claims of high elves, void elves say something different. But I hope you begin to realise the point is not blood elves have never had tattoos nor scars therefore shouldn't have them, it was that blizzard had moved blood elves away from that TFT to TBC initially rougher more hardcore, tattooed hardened group they seemed to be headed, and filed them back to high elves. pursuing a more pristine look, opting for the rougher look to go to void elves when they did that, and on that basis, void elves/high elves were going to get that instead of blood elves.

It's not o say that blood elves have no right to that look, they do, , nor is it to say that they can't change direction or grow broader in scope, they can. The question I asked was should they?

You see the argument on how versatile the elven groups should be or generalised shifts all the time, now because they want tattoos and scars and it's more the high/void elven thing, this blood elf fan crowd are fine about generalisations and opening up to it where previously they wanted their niche exclusive, yet that was the same argument the night elven fans who loved the kaldorei pre-sundering side of things. This Belf fan crowd were arguing vehemently against kaldorei alliance group showing the arcane mastery and majesty side of the night elves, because they felt blood elves grabbed that niche, despite my protests that we shouldn't draw the line on that basis. Blood elves were the Thalassian race and now had their own identity apart from the night elves, , saying night elves shouldn't show the Kaldorei pre-sundering side or their majesty and arcane mastery because blood elves had that was like saying humans shouldn't because blood elves had it (since they were now two different races (and by races I mean faction races.. not together, separate - having a connection, but they have their own development and story, links and commonalities but different groups with their own history pertaining to them when their identity started.. For the blood elves, that starts initially in the exile as high elves, but takes on this new vein after Wc3, for night elves, this starts in their genesis, and encapsulates both the pre-sundering and post sundering eras, whether you're a Darnassian, Suramar night elf (moonguard or those who became nightborne) or Shen'dralar)

Yet in, their desperation to covet all things magical , they resisted that vehemently when it suited them. Now the argument has shifted, and with the opening up of high elves, they have finally surrounded the idea that each elven group is a par t of the whole, because they want beards and tattoos whether void elves/high elves have them or not, which is now recognising each elven group as their own people, with their own lore and customs and story that entitles them to have the things that their culture and the breadth of their race entitle them too. Therefore they now feel it's okay for both void/high elves and blood elves to have beards and tattoos, regardless of whether the lore makes it feel more of void/high elf thing or not.

Simply put: blood elves are their own group, they had tattoos via the sunfury, and some like Lor'themar can choose to keep scars, therefore blood elves should have those options regardless of what is good or bad or right or wrong for void/high elves and regardless of whether void/high elves have them or not

THIS IS EXACTLY what I've been saying about night elves too.

When considering what night elves should have, we should follow their lore, because this is what fans like me do, we don't go.. "oh blood elves have the arcane elven thing and the city thing, therefore we are okay about night elves being forest only.. - no, (specially since blood elves also have a forest thig.. Quel'thalas is one massive forest remember). We see.. oh, forget about blood elves, they're on the other side of the world and have developed their own elven group.

Night elves have night elven arcane history, night elven great cities and civilizations in addition to a great druid tradition, we want to see the night elven version of these for night elves, regardless of whether blood elves have them or not. Great elven cities or cities are not the exclusive property of blood elves, nor is arcane magic, it is part of night elf lore too, and a major one too, even if the Darnasssians don't have much of it going on currently, and we'd like to see a proper version of this show up, regardless of whether blood elves have it or not, because blood elves are a different group of their own, even if they are elves.

And reading @The Banshee, @MyWholeLifeIsThunder , @Tanaria , @Rhlore and yourself, this is exactly what you are saying now you want or okay about blood elves getting beards and scars even if some fans feel they fit or are better suited to high/void elves, it doesn't matter, blood elves have a right to it, it's been proven it's a part of blood elf lore anyway, they should get them regardless of whether void/high elves do.

Same argument. The elven groups aren't one part of a whole, the way fans view them are as their own individual groups. Those who like night elves, want everything about them to happen, those who love void elves are passionate about them and want to see the elegance and majesty of the Thalassian Quel'dorei as well as the roguish, wayfarer wanderer side too, because it's part of the lore and because they love the race, they love all those aspects. Now some people only care one part of the race.. fair enough

Their are blood elf fans that only care for the arcane side
High elf fans that only care for the pre WC3 side of the high elves
Night elf fans that only care for the tree hugging side. or the Female amazonian warrior priest side


That's fine, you can have your favourite side, but these races have more to them than just the part you may like the most, and their are fans who want to see that reflected.. and should



So can we agree:

1. Blood elves should have tattoos, scars, rougher beards too
2. Void/high elves should have their version of tattoos, rougher beards, void effects
3. Night elves should have their star/arcane aspects, their full proper city that powerfully reflects the pre-sundering side of their race that is part of them and reflects their arcane origin.
4. Nightborne should have their glowy hands and feet, their conjured armour and their option for night elf ears too, because that was part of the NPC look they had going as part of their thing.


And none of this means they shouldn't have new things coming their way as they develop them.

• I love that night elves have the night warrior - but I'd hate for no arcane progress or druidic development to happen because of this
• Love that blood elves have the light development, but would hate if the Farstrider forest side or the majestic arcane side just stagnates.
• Love that nightborne have a new adventure with the horde, but would hate if the druidic valewalker side of the Arcan'dor just died (what about the Botanists, Farodin? - a huge part of what the Nightborne are supposed to be about now), or if they abandoned pursuing giving us more arcane options like a proper spellbalde for warriors and rogues like we saw.

Now do you see where I'm coming from? Each elven group is their own group, the story of the kaldorei , while it touches the Thalassians, is its own story, it has druidic and arcane bits it has every right to have shown and seen properly in that group regardless of what blood elves, Nightborne or void elves have.

By the same token, so are the blood elves, they're in Quel'thalas now, not the high/void elves - and whether they re-unite, share or never get together again, the blood elves are their own racial faction entitled ot beards and scars and tattoos, because they have their history with the sunfury, Illidan (this brought the tattoos), scars becuase they went through a hard period of a number of years in their struggles without the sunwell and magic to fix everything - so some would undoubtedly, like Lor'themar, keep their scars, and beards (would recovering addicts like restored Wretched care to be all neatly trimmed?) For totally different reasons than High/void elves, blood elves have a right to these things to be seen and reflected because it is part of their lore.

There are some people like @matrix123mko that want that fel element of the blood elves to be much bigger, he likes that, and it's part of blood elf lore, do we just eliminate all traces of the fel because some of us don't like that story ? most blood elvs may be healed form it, but some relish that power, there is a niche for that, and it should be there to reflect this side of the blood elves.

And in very similar fashion, their are enough night elves that would always follow Illidan's philosophy, and take up the fel to hunt demons and embody that side of the night elves that isn't part of the mainstream, but has been a very powerful and very well fleshed out and represented aspect of them.. regardless of whether the blood elves are sharing in the Illidari lore or not. The night elves have a part of that story that's very much part of their lore and should continue to have it represented.

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Seriously, I was not part of that, and I don't remember wading into that discussion. Ravenmoon talked to me about it, but I don't remember coming on the forums to agree or disagree.

Lorthemar has beard and a scar. So blood elves need to look like thier racial leader

[Three Faced Goddess]

Can we just ignore any future derailment and ignore people talking about what Blood Elves can't have?

[Mace]

Lorthemar has beard and a scar. So blood elves need to look like thier racial leader

A response that shows you read nothing of what I said.

Why do you always do this? If you are going quite the whole block, then at least read it.

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Can we just ignore any future derailment and ignore people talking about what Blood Elves can't have?

So let’s only talk about thing we all agree on? Fine I’ll be quiet and let your topic die again

[Vaedan]

It's always beyond me how you can be this verbose yet say so little, be direct and to the point and be done with the pointless fluff.

<joke> Do you know what night elves did during their 10 thousand years Long Vigil?
...
...
They almost read all of the night elf fans posts on forums. Almost. </joke>

On the serious note, I agree that it's pointless to insert discussions about night elves and nightborne into all elf threads, especially while darnassian group have it's own dedicated discussion thread.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

What do you think are missed opportunities for the Blood Elves, in terms of advancing their story or explore their culture or developp their relations with other races ?

[Thalassian Bob]

SNIP

Mace, I mean this in the kindest way possible but the length of your posts makes it very difficult to face putting together a suitable response. I understand that you're passionate about a playable race you love and want to see it fleshed out in such a way as to fulfil your vision for that race but, gosh, that's a lot to unpack!

I would support more representation of the Highborne fantasy in future Kaldorei lore and for player customisation. However, if this came at the expense of the blood elves or Nightborne in, say, losing Silvermoon or Suramar, I would vehemently oppose it. If it meant to rebuilding Eldre'Thalas and turning it into a Highborne Kaldorei hub, I would happily support that.

I would agree with MyLifeisThunder though in saying that the modern night elves are not an arcane focused group. Highborne elves, who are almost identical to them, however, are. And I would happily see the highborne get more representation in NPCs and lore. But the followers of Tyrande and Malfurion are not - and should not be shown to be - enthusiasts for arcane magics.

I think we both agree that the more customisation every race has access to (within reason regarding lore) is a good thing. I want both blood and void elves to have access to majestic and rustic aesthetics and I support your call for more Highborne options for playable Kaldorei.

And a lot of races already allow for it, most noticeable examples being Night Elf and Forsaken IMO. You can go for a wild, leaves on hair, scars and warpain look on NE's, or fancy jewelry with a neat hairstyle for a more noble vibe. Same for Forsaken, than can go from messy zombies to elegant undead with elaborate hairstyles and little decay.

Like I have always say that if people want to force distinction let's then give warpaint to VE's because Alleria, but if it were up to me I'd go for more aesthetic overlap if it leads to more player choice, so I'd say warpaint for all thalassians.

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This is what always betrays your point; you ALWAYS end up sneaking your own agenda, what *you* personally want, as the default that NE's should have.

Night Elves don't need a "full proper city that reflects the pre sundering side of their race". That's their PAST. What they need to represent in their city is their CURRENT relationship with the arcane. Suramar or a city like it JUST DOESN'T REPRESENT WHAT THE NIGHT ELVES ARE RIGHT NOW.

Yes, Highborne should be able to reclaim their heritage, I'd love a highborne district, but you can't apply that logic to ALL NIGHT ELVES, when most of them have moved PAST that chapter of their existence and prefer a more druidic and in touch with nature existence.

You constantly keep shoving the idea they should return back to represent their arcane origin as the default of their current society, and that's just Not What Night Elves Are.

Honestly if you think that Night Elves should have their Home City as Suramar or something like it, you just don't get Night Elves as a whole, and I am tired of entertaining otherwise. This conversation would be far more productive if you would accept that what you really care is the Highborne, and to stop trying to push all NE's into that aesthetic.

Well said on both fronts. You make a good point about the scope of customisation for Kaldorei and Forsaken. I hope that Thalassians will continue to have customisation options added to allow us players to make our characters of different classes more distinct from one another.

And I think you make a very strong point about arcane being largely in the past for the Kaldorei. But, as I said to Mace, I think it would be cool to increase the scope for night elf players to make Highborne mages.

What do you think are missed opportunities for the Blood Elves, in terms of advancing their story or explore their culture or developp their relations with other races ?

I would looooooove to see some of the Allerian Stronghold elves return to Quel'Thalas and interact with the blood elves there. I'd like to see Theloria Shadecloak asking Halduron or Lor'themar about what lead the Sin'dorei to becoming Sin'dorei. I'd like to see them learn of the horrors of the Third War, the loss of the Sunwell, the betrayal of the Alliance through the dwarven spies and night elf saboteurs. I'd like to see at least some of the Allerian elves struggling to choose between the allies they'd been trapped on Draenor with for two decades and the home they left to defend that has now switched sides.

It was cool to see Captain Auric in the Sunwell during the Quel'Delar quest chain and it was especially cool when he speaks of all Thalassians rallying together behind the bearer of Quel'Delar if the player is a blood elf. But, getting more interactions between the blood elves and the high elves of Allerian Stronghold would be awesome in my opinion!

I'd also like to see the blood elves returning the favour to the Forsaken who felt betrayed by Sylvanas and taking them in when they have lost their leader and home in the same way that the Thalassians did and the undead people of Lordaeron rallied to Quel'Thalas to help them in their time of need.