The Blood Elves discussion thread

[Tanaria]

I would say


kaldorei = heavy nature, and Elune and small arcane (by small I mean smaller number, not less potency or skill. They’re led by highborne who’ve been prolifically studying and advancing their magical knowledge for 10k years. They’d be way above anyone. Only the Nightborne would compare)

No. They are way below races who have always been studying the Arcane and advancing.

The Draenei, the Blood Elves, the Humans, the Void Elves, the Nightborne, the Zandalari. They have eclipsed what the current Shen'dralar can do.
The Alliance Highborne even say that the magic of the Empire, pales by comparison that the other races now wield. They know a lot, but they are nowhere near as advanced as the other races.

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Well, the guards in Darnassus remained all female, but there are male sentinels in Ashenvale, during the Siege of Astranaar, so there are some indeed some male Sentinels, but not so many though.

Well, if they're not going to make male sentinels, then opening the doors to an all male Highborne Guard of Eldre'Thalas, is both fair and quite fitting.

Like I say, most Highborne Warriors and Guardians were male.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

The thing is, Blizzard haven't updated any of the night elf guards, like they did with the Blood Elves and Dwarves.

I mean, they talk about "equality" but yet, we've got no male night elf sentinel guards. If they aren't going to do that, then that's fine. Keep the Sentinels as female, but have the Highborne Shen'dralar Warriors as male.
Both need to be updated so they have extra features, just like the other races.

I'm not one to argue about the finer details of Highborne society, but I've been told that many of the Guardians of the major Highborne cities were all male.

Well, the guards in Darnassus remained all female, but there are male sentinels in Ashenvale, during the Siege of Astranaar, so there are some indeed some male Sentinels, but not so many though.

Basically that, there are males in the Sentinel Army since Cataclysm, we just haven't seen them as guards. So the easiest answer would be to add male Sentinel guards that reflect that reality.

And again, my issue here is why even reinforce gender segregated roles at this point? As I said, I really don't see the point of it, nor the appeal. Can you give a good reason/argument for it?

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No. They are way below races who have always been studying the Arcane and advancing.

The Draenei, the Blood Elves, the Humans, the Void Elves, the Nightborne, the Zandalari. They have eclipsed what the current Shen'dralar can do.
The Alliance Highborne even say that the magic of the Empire, pales by comparison that the other races now wield. They know a lot, but they are nowhere near as advanced as the other races.

There's even a Horde quest in Aszhara where Blood Elves basically have a laugh at how incompetent the new Night Elven mages are.

Why some people believe that new Night Elves that are just learning magic would be better than any of the other races that had learning methods for centuries is beyond me.

[Tanaria]

Basically that, there are males in the Sentinel Army since Cataclysm, we just haven't seen them as guards. So the easiest answer would be to add male Sentinel guards that reflect that reality.

And again, my issue here is why even reinforce gender segregated roles at this point? As I said, I really don't see the point of it, nor the appeal. Can you give a good reason/argument for it?

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There's even a Horde quest in Aszhara where Blood Elves basically have a laugh at how incompetent the new Night Elven mages are.

Why some people believe that new Night Elves that are just learning magic would be better than any of the other races that had learning methods for centuries is beyond me.

Regarding the Guards: If Blizzard give a new Night Elf city with male Sentinel guards, then I'm fine with a mix of Highborne male and female guards, protecting Eldre'Thalas.
If not, and the Sentinels remain as females, then I think there's nothing wrong with following the idea of the Highborne High-Guard, being male, since they were, during Azshara's reign.

Regarding the Azshara quest:
I know some of them were Apprentices, but at the Alliance Night Elf village on the edge of Azshara - they were actual Highborne lorekeepers and they were still bested.

And, an apprentice is only as good as their master. The fact that they were using, now-outdated forms of constructs, shows that the Highborne do need to catch up. Luckily, they do have those resources in the Humans, High Elves and Void Elves.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Regarding the Guards: If Blizzard give a new Night Elf city with male Sentinel guards, then I'm fine with a mix of Highborne male and female guards, protecting Eldre'Thalas.
If not, and the Sentinels remain as females, then I think there's nothing wrong with following the idea of the Highborne High-Guard, being male, since they were, during Azshara's reign.

Personally I don't think the Highborne should be basing any of their hierarchies in old imperial models, cause like, the cast differences are the source of the problems of the empire and later collapse.

Regarding the Azshara quest:

I know some of them were Apprentices, but at the Alliance Night Elf village on the edge of Azshara - they were actual Highborne lorekeepers and they were still bested.

And, an apprentice is only as good as their master. The fact that they were using, now-outdated forms of constructs, shows that the Highborne do need to catch up. Luckily, they do have those resources in the Humans, High Elves and Void Elves.

The teachers are highborne, the fact that the PC defeats them doesn't say much of their ability tho. There's no reason to believe they are more inept than... any other quest mobs, that's a gameplay thing.

It is indeed a point that the BE quest giver laughs at the usage of the Arcane Construct, which indeed points out to the HB being stuck in their old ways, which is a detriment when there's updated knowledge.

[Tanaria]

It is indeed a point that the BE quest giver laughs at the usage of the Arcane Construct, which indeed points out to the HB being stuck in their old ways, which is a detriment when there's updated knowledge.

Yes, but to certain mage fans..."Highborne are so far above every race, only Nightborne compare!"
Without the proof.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Yes, but to certain mage fans..."Highborne are so far above every race, only Nightborne compare!"
Without the proof.

I mean that's just a silly biased opinion, and I realized a long time ago that Ravenmoon is too biased to ever want an actual discussion and all they do is try to convince you they are right *shrug*

[Tanaria]

I mean that's just a silly biased opinion, and I realized a long time ago that Ravenmoon is too biased to ever want an actual discussion and all they do is try to convince you they are right *shrug*

Well, check the Nightborne/Night Elf thread.
Now, Elune is connected to all Arcane based sectors, in each race who have a Mage sector. Humans and Blood Elves, as an example, don't realise it yet.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Well, check the Nightborne/Night Elf thread.
Now, Elune is connected to all Arcane based sectors, in each race who have a Mage sector. Humans and Blood Elves, as an example, don't realise it yet.

Oh I was just there, and it's tiring AF to see people that claim to love Night Elves don't understand them, or how Elune's power works and its presented.

[Mace]

Honestly? I don't think you understand the difference between the Kaldorei used to being an arcane based society and now being a druidic based society.

honestly, I don't think you understand what I'm trying to say.

You think I'm saying that because Darnassians (not all kaldorei) use to be an arcane based society, therefore this is the reason the arcane is a part and parcel of them.

That's not what me or Raven have been saying at all. We are very much aware that the Darnassian society is relatively low on arcane involvement. I do apologise that you have to read the many words, but they do actually say what I'm meaning.

It's not about whether there weren't any nature/druidic elements before, It's what ideology is predominant; nightborne have gardeners and botanists, but how they treat nature is ideologically different of how current darnassian society does.

Whiles that is true, and I am very much aware of this as an avid night elf follower, this is not what I'm trying to point out.

The degree or prevalence of the practice of arcane in the society is not the same as being connected to the arcane or having it as a core part. It can mean that based on the context you are using.. this is why I take the time every time to flesh out the what I mean, because I am aware people's minds first go to "oh well they don't use arcane much..how can it be core ore central."

They are just thinking of the practice of arcane, I'm thinking of the arcane itself as a part and parcel of them, it's in their DNA, it's the energy they are connected to through the well and the moonwells.

It's the power half the druid's offensive spells are and all the priestess of Elune's offensive spells are, until they introduced the night warrior which showed the void spells (in addition to a normal priest non-Elune related shadow spells - even if Elune inspire them to cast all those spells) we know she is not the source of those shadow or light spells directly, so I don't see why @Tanaria assumes she is the source of all the arcane spells - because he assumes night elf priests are like human ones, and know nothing outside their light faith.. when this is not how the lore paints them - but I digress- many words, apologies.)


When I say the arcane is a core part of the night elves, I'm looking at the magical energy, not just the practice of it or the prevalence of it's spell usage in the society. Druids use the arcane offensively as do Priestesses of Elune, but that's it, they don't use the arcane in daily life, for creating things and conveniences of any kind, and their source of wielding it likely either comes from within, the stars and moon they call down and/or Elune.. whiles a mage's source is from the magic in the air (released by the implosion of the well) and in Azeroth's lifeblood leyline veins.

I also look at the Moonwells and the Well of Eternity, the most important arcane source that while not directly used for spell work since before the sundering, is a major part of the focus of the long vigil, and the source of all the Moonwells the night elves make and use and it's waters held sacred.

Not to mention their glowy silver/blue eyes of arcane power and their arcane tinged purple skin.

Whether it's use is prevalent in their society or not, it is still a core part of them.

Just becuase it was major int he past also doesn't mean it is not a part of them, the past is what informs the present, the past is why the practice was banned, and the reason for the ban, the Legion, was also the reason it was lifted, for it s practice (not the magic itself, just the wielding of it from the well for spells) was banned to prevent said legion) which when returned, was no longer meaningful to enforce, and thus resumed.

Resumed not as prolifically as before, but was still there.

It doesn't have to be prevalent to be a core part of you. If it's in your DNA, whether you deny yourself it's use like the Daranssians did during the long vigil, or you continue using it like both the Shen'dralar, Moonguard and night elven Suramar residents who remained their and became Nightborne.. - it's still part of your make up.


Thalassian elves have arcane aptitude because they are from night elves, they don't have it without them, nor did they create it themselves, it's already there, as is a love for nature that the culture of their caste, as night elves somewhat diminished a little, but you setill see signs of it (they moved to a lush forest for their new home, and Eversong woods is literally the vast majority of Quel'thalas - tells you something right? Shown, just not played up by blizzard, probably will be when they focus on the Farstrider side of the blood elves.. And the Darnassians not practising the arcane didn't not diminish their talent or potential in it, it just meant they were out of practice. Remember, it's the same race that spawned all the Highborne and all the great works, all it did was made the Daranssians very rusty and low in skill - which si something that training and practice can remedy.. talent on the other hand, or ability/capability/potential is something you have to be born with or be naturally inclined to, an its' in the race's DNA, the unchanged, unaltered original night elves of the presundering era that had so much talent and skill.. but the Shen'dralar were not rusty, nor were the Moonguard, nor were the Nightborne, because they'd been using it continuously over the last 10,000 years. and you are shown..look how powerfully these groups are shown (Moonguard/Nightborne) or described (Shen'dralar)

This is what I'm trying to show.

I am fully aware Darnassian society doesn't "PRACTICE the arcane for spells" prolifcially like the kaldorei societies before the pre-sundering era.. but it doesn't mean the aracne is not a core part of them, it just mean that arcane practice is not prevalent with them. currently.

Just because it isn't currently doesn't mean it won't grow later on, that's like saying because the night elves, void elves and high elves are homeless, they'd never get a society or create homes for themselves.. it's just a stage of their story. and the writers determine where that goes.

I... I don't think you understand Night Elves. And I don't wanna mean something hostile by saying that, but like, that's the whole deal of night elves as we met them during War3, they basically got rid of any cultural aspects of the arcane because of a safety measure, It's unecessary now, yes, but their culture for the last 10k years has banned arcane and its related ideologies, so by all accounts it has a minimal presence in modern NE culture, only being reintegrated by the highborne.

Night Elves are not an arcane based society, just like Stormwing Humans aren't, and it's just... so strange that you actually don't seem to get that. NE banning arcane for 10k years resulted on a culture and society with little use for the arcane; that's the point. Their culture has been shaped on the absence of the arcane, and it will take time before it can settle again as a cultural cornerstone, if ever.

I just think when you say this, you don't understand what I have been trying to say sadly. I don't know if what I wrote above clarifies this a little. I'm surry I could not make it more succinct, but there is so much I do want to share and I feel it's easily lost when I try to deep dive. And as much as i sometimes don't want, I tend to jsut end up doing so anyway.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

SNIP

How the hell did you took like 6 paragraphs to say that Night Elves have an innate affinity to the arcane? JFC, can you TRY to make your thoughts concise? You are not making your explanations any clearer by repeating yourself. You have to get to the point.

On to it:

The problem is that you have started using the "core aspect" to mean something entirely different than what is used; "Core" themes/aspects are cultural and ideological. You are conflating arcane as an element, with arcane as a cultural element. Those are not the same things. Night Elves are highly arcane attuned which probably helps with their connection to Elune, but "arcane" as a field of study and the related culture is almost nonexistent in their society, because they got rid of it on purpose.

Basically, on the simplest terms "Not because it's something you're good at it, it's something you have to do." Night Elves removed arcane as a cornerstone of their society, and whether it will ever return it's entirely speculative.

I just think when you say this, you don't understand what I have been trying to say sadly. I don't know if what I wrote above clarifies this a little. I'm surry I could not make it more succinct, but there is so much I do want to share and I feel it's easily lost when I try to deep dive. And as much as i sometimes don't want, I tend to jsut end up doing so anyway.

Indeed it is a problem, because your point gets lost in repetitive ramblings that serve no purpose, obfuscating your own point, that even NOW I don't fully understand what is. Do you have a point, as in argument about Night Elves and the Arcane as a part of their cultural identity going forward?

[Tanaria]

snip.

Right, so we're in agreement then.

The Arcane, as a source of magic, common to how the Mages of Azeroth gather their sources, is not big in the major night elf society.
Nor should it be, since it's obvious that Silvermoon should always maintain a superiority over Eldre'Thalas - so the latter would just be a poor man's Silvermoon.

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Basically, on the simplest terms "Not because it's something you're good at it, it's something you have to do." Night Elves removed arcane as a cornerstone of their society, and whether it will ever return it's entirely speculative.

It can return to showcase and continue the story from Cata Feralas. (Shen'dralar reclaiming Eldre'Thalas for the Alliance, but it also houses High Elves and Void Elves.)
But Eldre'Thalas serves as a Night Elf hub. Not the night elf capital.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

It can return to showcase and continue the story from Cata Feralas. (Shen'dralar reclaiming Eldre'Thalas for the Alliance, but it also houses High Elves and Void Elves.)
But Eldre'Thalas serves as a Night Elf hub. Not the night elf capital.

Mind you, there's a big difference between arcane returning as a theme to the Night Elf Culture, and saying it should be a "cornerstone" of it.

I think no matter how good Night Elves are at magic, it will (and should) never return to have the cultural dominance that it used to have before the Sundering. Night Elf culture just is not about that.

[Tanaria]

Mind you, there's a big difference between arcane returning as a theme to the Night Elf Culture, and saying it should be a "cornerstone" of it.

I think no matter how good Night Elves are at magic, it will (and should) never return to have the cultural dominance that it used to have before the Sundering. Night Elf culture just is not about that.

With the Nightborne on the scene, I'd dare say that they aren't that interested in the Alliance Highborne and focus on the main areas of current Night Elf society.

We've seen a big focus on night elven druids, priestesses, sentinels and wardens. Each of these, holding a firm place during the Long Vigil era.

I mean, I can understand why Blizzard would do this. Where can they fit the Shen'dralar in at this point? The Nightborne, Void Elves and Blood Elves basically cover each area, where they could have stood out.
Hell, the Shen'dralar studying the void? Big deal, now that we've got the Void Elves.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

With the Nightborne on the scene, I'd dare say that they aren't that interested in the Alliance Highborne and focus on the main areas of current Night Elf society.

We've seen a big focus on night elven druids, priestesses, sentinels and wardens. Each of these, holding a firm place during the Long Vigil era.

I mean, I can understand why Blizzard would do this. Where can they fit the Shen'dralar in at this point? The Nightborne, Void Elves and Blood Elves basically cover each area, where they could have stood out.
Hell, the Shen'dralar studying the void? Big deal, now that we've got the Void Elves.

Again, that's missing my point; Highborne can totally have an arcane focused culture within the Night Elven society, my point is that arcane study, on itself, won't ever again be a predominant part of mainstream Night Elven culture.

All races, all cultures, hold different aspects and beliefs; that's why several races can be pretty much every class. But that doesn't change the fact that the cultural cornerstones, the central thematic beliefs of a race, are far more specific, and bleed into others aspects as well, changing them.

For Night Elves is Elune Worship and Druidism.

For Humans is the Church of the Holy Light.

For Draenei is the Naaru.

So on and so forth.

[Beloren]

we need this!

This is AMAZING

wHY CAN'T WE HAVE BEARDS LIKE THIS?

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I want this for customization

mE TOO..

THIS IS EXACTLY THE SORT OF COOL LOOK and rugged look I've wanted for ages.


Who wouldn't want to do a blood elf rogue or hunter if the could look like this?

Are they still making changes to main races? Someone call blizzard quick.

[Tanaria]

Again, that's missing my point; Highborne can totally have an arcane focused culture within the Night Elven society, my point is that arcane study, on itself, won't ever again be a predominant part of mainstream Night Elven culture.

All races, all cultures, hold different aspects and beliefs; that's why several races can be pretty much every class. But that doesn't change the fact that the cultural cornerstones, the central thematic beliefs of a race, are far more specific, and bleed into others aspects as well, changing them.

For Night Elves is Elune Worship and Druidism.

For Humans is the Church of the Holy Light.

For Draenei is the Naaru.

So on and so forth.

Well that's what I was referring to.

Alliance Highborne can play a part, but it's not a huge influential part...or if it is, it's core story takes place around Feralas and Desolace.

In the grand scheme though, where do the Alliance Highborne now fit, in comparison to the other Alliance Mage races? No denying, they could have done something great with them, but with the additions of Void Elves and Draenei, it would be difficult to try and fit them in...unless, you make them part of the 7th Legion (which many night elf fans wouldn't like, because it's a Human led thing and the meme behind night elves needing humans, just continues.)

[Mace]

Again, that's missing my point; Highborne can totally have an arcane focused culture within the Night Elven society, my point is that arcane study, on itself, won't ever again be a predominant part of mainstream Night Elven culture.

All races, all cultures, hold different aspects and beliefs; that's why several races can be pretty much every class. But that doesn't change the fact that the cultural cornerstones, the central thematic beliefs of a race, are far more specific, and bleed into others aspects as well, changing them.

For Night Elves is Elune Worship and Druidism.

For Humans is the Church of the Holy Light.

For Draenei is the Naaru.

So on and so forth.

While I won't say never, this depends on what the writers do, what you say is correct.

Personally, I think the ngiht elves would move to a balanced state. Or at least were originally heading there, because the Nightborne are in play now, they could use the Nightborne for the civilization /arcane focused dominant aspect of kaldorei culture, with minor influences of druidism and Elunism, and use the Darnassians to show the dominant long vigil nature focused side, with minor elements of the arcane and Highborne.

My preference would be the kaldorei return to a fully fleshed race, that has all these aspects operating.. but the truth, what most night elf fans want to see is good representation in game visually.

I don't mind if the demon hunters or the Highborne/arcane night elf wielders like the Moonguard are small, as long as they have good visualisation and customisation.

Demon hunters are small, but they have an entire planet, assets, full array of customisations. I don't mind if the new Highborne order is small, compared to the rest of the Darnassians, let them have an amazing city, let us have cool customisations that reflect them, so and you can have most of the Darnassians stories focus more on Malfurion and Tyrande. Even though I'd prefer them to evolve to a point where all their elements are in play (including the Illidari fel wielding night elves.

I'm hesitant to rely on the nightborne to satisfy the pre-sundering kaldorei needs, because i don't think it's good to have to go play another faction to get a part of your race visualised properly - this has ben the source of the frustration of how they handled 7.3.5 Nightborne. And this is regardless of whether the arcane becomes a major force, super prevalent or just a part of three.

I actually don't wan the arcane amongst the night elves to become prevalent like it was in the pre-sundering era, this doesn't mean night elves shouldn't have a great and beautiful night elf city as majestic as they've ever done, I just don't want them fully that imbalanced society in the l1st invasion period of the pre-sundering era, nor do I want them all entirely nature focused. they can have both living separately, like demon hunters are separate from the others.. however, i would like to see balance, such that the arcane practice becomes more prevalent, but is equally balanced by nature practice and Elune order sits over both having it's paws in both groups .

This is unique. Meanwhile, Nightborne society can show a far more pre-sundering (invasion era) skewed night elven society, with a a few changes it's story has permitted (i.e. some druidism returning with the balance the Arcan'dor brings and aside of the Order of Elune that operated effectively in the pre-sundering era, dealing with city folk, this is a far more temple focused priesthood than a martial sentinel one.

We know the Darnassian priesthood had to become largely martial focused because most of their job was not catering to a civilization in cities in peaceful times of progress and enlightenment but fighting wars and beating back evil..which requires force.

So the priesthood amongst the Darnassians can show a different side to the Order than that amongst the Nightborne, same with druidism, with the Nightborne druids focusing a lot more on the balance druid and it's lore, which has been sparing so far amongst the Darnassians which have a lot of resto and feral focus. (lore wise).



My ideal would be Kaldorei = balanced society, Shal'dorei = arcane heavy pre-sundering society

and by balanced i don't mean they all have to live together in the way the Blood elves live, they could actually be quite segregated (druids in forests, Highborne with the civilians in cities, priests in temples which are in both forest and cities) doing hteir own thing, but no one group ever dominating the whole of society like the arcane did towards the end of the pre-sundering era and like nature did throughout the long vigil.

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In the grand scheme though, where do the Alliance Highborne now fit, in comparison to the other Alliance Mage races? No denying, they could have done something great with them, but with the additions of Void Elves and Draenei, it would be difficult to try and fit them in...unless, you make them part of the 7th Legion (which many night elf fans wouldn't like, because it's a Human led thing and the meme behind night elves needing humans, just continues.)

I don't' think that's how they role. Things come in turns, and not because they somehow will abandon something. The night elf display in legion prove sit. It seemed they abandoned the night elf priesthood once they took the Draenei down the priest route, but are eventually coming round to it now. as they did the arcane route in legion.


And I think you're premise is wrong, you think that because the alliance has other arcane wielding races /mages it means there is no need for the Highborne. I don't think it works that way or it's viewed that way. The Highborne are part of the night elven society and story, regardless of how many other alliance races have mages or a mage wing.

humans are not a mage centred society, but they do have a mage centred civilization in Dalaran led by the Kirin'tor. The Highborne are similar to that. in that current Darnassian society is not mage centred like it was near the end of the pre-sundering era, but it does have an all mage/arcane society of them, the Shen'dralar, who had their own city and life until recently, similar to Dalaran. Now they're all homeless together, how this changes in the future is unknown.

They may build them a bright nice new city, or they may rebuild Eldre'thalas for the Highborne and make it the de facto kaldorei international place, while making a more remote, temple city for the rest of the kaldorei on Hyjal and operate the Highborne like they do Dalaran wizards and the Illidari - a separate entity, but one that is allied to the Hyjalians but their own nation.

humans are not the only ones that can have nations, and night elves can have several nations, we don't have to lump the 4 playable elven groups as the nations of elves. Night elves are big enough to have more than one..and they do. if you count the Farondis, the Moonguard, the Shen'dralar, the Darnassians, the Cenarians, the Dreamwardens and the Nightborne.. that's 7 nations. Each are autonomous, though some work more closely with each other. Shen'dralar and Darnassians seem to be integrated, but that could only be temporary, or not quite what we think.

[Tanaria]

I don't' think that's how they role. Things come in turns, and not because they somehow will abandon something. The night elf display in legion prove sit. It seemed they abandoned the night elf priesthood once they took the Draenei down the priest route, but are eventually coming round to it now. as they did the arcane route in legion.


And I think you're premise is wrong, you think that because the alliance has other arcane wielding races /mages it means there is no need for the Highborne. I don't think it works that way or it's viewed that way. The Highborne are part of the night elven society and story, regardless of how many other alliance races have mages or a mage wing.

humans are not a mage centred society, but they do have a mage centred civilization in Dalaran led by the Kirin'tor. The Highborne are similar to that. in that current Darnassian society is not mage centred like it was near the end of the pre-sundering era, but it does have an all mage/arcane society of them, the Shen'dralar, who had their own city and life until recently, similar to Dalaran. Now they're all homeless together, how this changes in the future is unknown.

They may build them a bright nice new city, or they may rebuild Eldre'thalas for the Highborne and make it the de facto kaldorei international place, while making a more remote, temple city for the rest of the kaldorei on Hyjal and operate the Highborne like they do Dalaran wizards and the Illidari - a separate entity, but one that is allied to the Hyjalians but their own nation.

humans are not the only ones that can have nations, and night elves can have several nations, we don't have to lump the 4 playable elven groups as the nations of elves. Night elves are big enough to have more than one..and they do. if you count the Farondis, the Moonguard, the Shen'dralar, the Darnassians, the Cenarians, the Dreamwardens and the Nightborne.. that's 7 nations. Each are autonomous, though some work more closely with each other. Shen'dralar and Darnassians seem to be integrated, but that could only be temporary, or not quite what we think.

We've had two expansions, back to back, that look into Highborne lore and Blizzard opted to not use the Alliance Shen'dralar Highborne.

I think we just have to accept that Shen'dralar are just not at the forefront of Blizzard's minds, when it comes to the Night Elves. It's Druids, it's Sentinels; it's lots of things related to the forest. 8.1, Blizzard themselves wanted to promote the idea of what happens when you step into a kaldorei forest.
Many of the night elf spirits in Ardenweald are happy to be back in a forest.

We've got the Ghosts of Azsuna...but they are only loosely tied to the Alliance (mainly for gameplay purposes.)
Moonguard - hardly existent now. The NPCs tell you that the order is over.
Shen'dralar - these are your main Alliance Highborne and they have been ignored.

Anyway - I don't understand what got us on to talking about Night Elves and Nightborne, in the Sin'dorei discussion thread. Shall we go back to the main thread and move this discussion over to the Night Elf/Nightborne thread. Where it belongs?

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Well that's what I was referring to.

Alliance Highborne can play a part, but it's not a huge influential part...or if it is, it's core story takes place around Feralas and Desolace.

In the grand scheme though, where do the Alliance Highborne now fit, in comparison to the other Alliance Mage races? No denying, they could have done something great with them, but with the additions of Void Elves and Draenei, it would be difficult to try and fit them in...unless, you make them part of the 7th Legion (which many night elf fans wouldn't like, because it's a Human led thing and the meme behind night elves needing humans, just continues.)

I mean it shouldn't be really complicated on the first place, like we already have nelven mages on the 7th legion. It's less about "where they would fit" and more about their narrative purpose, because they would simply already fit wherever the alliance needs mages.

The point is where their narrative as specifically highborne would play out, and I do think Eldre'thalas is a good place for it, with the need for a stronger Night Elven presence in Southern Kalimdor that could be spearheaded by the Highborne as they also use the opportunity to reclaim their heritage.

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While I won't say never, this depends on what the writers do, what you say is correct.

Personally, I think the ngiht elves would move to a balanced state. Or at least were originally heading there, because the Nightborne are in play now, they could use the Nightborne for the civilization /arcane focused dominant aspect of kaldorei culture, with minor influences of druidism and Elunism, and use the Darnassians to show the dominant long vigil nature focused side, with minor elements of the arcane and Highborne.

My preference would be the kaldorei return to a fully fleshed race, that has all these aspects operating.. but the truth, what most night elf fans want to see is good representation in game visually.

I don't mind if the demon hunters or the Highborne/arcane night elf wielders like the Moonguard are small, as long as they have good visualisation and customisation.

Demon hunters are small, but they have an entire planet, assets, full array of customisations. I don't mind if the new Highborne order is small, compared to the rest of the Darnassians, let them have an amazing city, let us have cool customisations that reflect them, so and you can have most of the Darnassians stories focus more on Malfurion and Tyrande. Even though I'd prefer them to evolve to a point where all their elements are in play (including the Illidari fel wielding night elves.

I'm hesitant to rely on the nightborne to satisfy the pre-sundering kaldorei needs, because i don't think it's good to have to go play another faction to get a part of your race visualised properly - this has ben the source of the frustration of how they handled 7.3.5 Nightborne. And this is regardless of whether the arcane becomes a major force, super prevalent or just a part of three.

I actually don't wan the arcane amongst the night elves to become prevalent like it was in the pre-sundering era, this doesn't mean night elves shouldn't have a great and beautiful night elf city as majestic as they've ever done, I just don't want them fully that imbalanced society in the l1st invasion period of the pre-sundering era, nor do I want them all entirely nature focused. they can have both living separately, like demon hunters are separate from the others.. however, i would like to see balance, such that the arcane practice becomes more prevalent, but is equally balanced by nature practice and Elune order sits over both having it's paws in both groups .

This is unique. Meanwhile, Nightborne society can show a far more pre-sundering (invasion era) skewed night elven society, with a a few changes it's story has permitted (i.e. some druidism returning with the balance the Arcan'dor brings and aside of the Order of Elune that operated effectively in the pre-sundering era, dealing with city folk, this is a far more temple focused priesthood than a martial sentinel one.

We know the Darnassian priesthood had to become largely martial focused because most of their job was not catering to a civilization in cities in peaceful times of progress and enlightenment but fighting wars and beating back evil..which requires force.

So the priesthood amongst the Darnassians can show a different side to the Order than that amongst the Nightborne, same with druidism, with the Nightborne druids focusing a lot more on the balance druid and it's lore, which has been sparing so far amongst the Darnassians which have a lot of resto and feral focus. (lore wise).



My ideal would be Kaldorei = balanced society, Shal'dorei = arcane heavy pre-sundering society

and by balanced i don't mean they all have to live together in the way the Blood elves live, they could actually be quite segregated (druids in forests, Highborne with the civilians in cities, priests in temples which are in both forest and cities) doing hteir own thing, but no one group ever dominating the whole of society like the arcane did towards the end of the pre-sundering era and like nature did throughout the long vigil.

See, that's the thing, I don't think Night Elves should have a "balanced society", because modernly they simply are a more nature/druidism focused society, and that's okay, that's the reason why so many people like the Night Elves on the first place, for what they are, not what they were.

I don't think Arcane will, or should, regain a predominance on par with druidism in NE society. It will become more accepted, and perhaps the Highborne will get to do more stuff as a sub group, but NE society, as a whole, will remain favoring a nature focused way of life, their culture a reflection of that.

So a new Night Elf city should look more like the revamped assets we see in Auberdine -just on a greater scale- than Suramar. Culture and aesthetics are a reflection of the central themes of a race, of their ideology. If Night Elves got a city similar to Suramar, it would simply be incongruos to what they are, because that aesthetic doesn't reflect their identity.

[Rhlor]

This is AMAZING

wHY CAN'T WE HAVE BEARDS LIKE THIS?

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mE TOO..

THIS IS EXACTLY THE SORT OF COOL LOOK and rugged look I've wanted for ages.


Who wouldn't want to do a blood elf rogue or hunter if the could look like this?

Are they still making changes to main races? Someone call blizzard quick.

I think this is all of us want