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  1. #441
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogalicus View Post
    The only proper bosses are Livia and Gaius with Ultima Weapon, which can be remade into trials. There's no reason to keep 40 minute slog with cutscenes before both of them as repeatable content.
    Yes, there is. No solo boss compares to a group boss. Ever. No matter how easy, no matter how forgettable, no matter how much of a slog there is before and after.

    You don't have to repeat it if it's such a bother to you.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

  2. #442
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Yes, there is. No solo boss compares to a group boss. Ever. No matter how easy, no matter how forgettable, no matter how much of a slog there is before and after.

    You don't have to repeat it if it's such a bother to you.
    Compares how? I actually prefer the solo bosses. They come across as less gamey, and more personal.

  3. #443
    Quote Originally Posted by Advent View Post
    Compares how? I actually prefer the solo bosses. They come across as less gamey, and more personal.
    In feeling.

    You prefer solo bosses - That's because when you fight a solo boss, you already start with a different feeling than a group boss. That is precisely the difference I'm talking about. The setup is different - As you say, the fight feels less like an existential, worldly threat, and more personal. The setup for a group boss matches the scale of the boss. (Sometimes purely story based when it comes to scale, like in the case of Ultima Weapon, who was far from a DIFFICULT boss even when it was brand new. But the set up was made to scale for the Ultima Weapon, the greatest story-based challenge we had been set to date.)

    You can PREFER whatever you like. I'm not telling you how you can and can't feel about group bosses vs. solo bosses. All I'm saying is, you can't compare the two, because they are set up in game for different purposes. "Just make it a solo boss" changes the entire feel of the fight, the whole setup of the encounters - It makes us vs. Ultima Weapon a personal vendetta instead of the proper, giant conglomerate of three alliances banding together to destroy the greatest threat to the realm since the Calamity.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

  4. #444
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogalicus View Post
    The solution is to make both of them solo dungeons and kill MSQ roulette with fire. Making cutscenes unskippable and slapping exp bonus for AFKing is band-aid.
    This tbh. The last parts of it would feel a lot more epic too, fighting the Black Wolf on a solo duel, then facing the Ultima Weapon one on one after seeing it destroy the Primals you were struggling with before to give a sense of how much the WoL has grown, and finishing with facing Lahabrea alone to rescue Thancred and at the last moment you get that cringey cutscene of all the friends you've made along the way showing up to help you against the ascian. It would feel a lot better than doing all that with some seven other nobodies standing around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Turning a group boss fight into a solo boss fight lessens the impact.

    I don't mind watching some netflix while I play, it's generally what I do anyway.
    So impactful that you just watch netflix during it.

    I think making that dungeon solo would have a lot more impact actually, and explained why above and below.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Yes, there is. No solo boss compares to a group boss. Ever.
    Sapphire Weapon. Bahamut from Cid's memories. From the top of my head. I'm sure there's plenty other grand fights in solo duties.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    In feeling.

    You prefer solo bosses - That's because when you fight a solo boss, you already start with a different feeling than a group boss. That is precisely the difference I'm talking about. The setup is different - As you say, the fight feels less like an existential, worldly threat, and more personal. The setup for a group boss matches the scale of the boss. (Sometimes purely story based when it comes to scale, like in the case of Ultima Weapon, who was far from a DIFFICULT boss even when it was brand new. But the set up was made to scale for the Ultima Weapon, the greatest story-based challenge we had been set to date.)

    You can PREFER whatever you like. I'm not telling you how you can and can't feel about group bosses vs. solo bosses. All I'm saying is, you can't compare the two, because they are set up in game for different purposes. "Just make it a solo boss" changes the entire feel of the fight, the whole setup of the encounters - It makes us vs. Ultima Weapon a personal vendetta instead of the proper, giant conglomerate of three alliances banding together to destroy the greatest threat to the realm since the Calamity.
    You are defeating your own point. The relevant fights in the MSQ Roulettes are all personal. Livia kidnapped Minfilia, the Black Wolf directly challenges you, Lahabrea is your antagonist you even see him on the first cutsene of the game, the Ultima Weapon is there to show your growth from struggling to defeating primals to taking on a machine made to destroy them, you've overcome everything and this is your moment. This is exemplified by the cutscene at the end where all the people you've met in the story so far show up to give you the strength to defeat Lahabrea, not the other random people in the instance that are just watching netflix and making jokes on chat. These are all personal fights that are made worse by the presence of other players. If you replaced them all with named characters and officers from the three companies even that would be better than how it is right now.
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  5. #445
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyral View Post
    So impactful that you just watch netflix during it.

    I think making that dungeon solo would have a lot more impact actually, and explained why above and below.
    You quite literally cannot stop this from happening in several year old content.

    Just look at WoW. The problem got so bad they squished people's stats, then people complained so hard they gave you a mega buff so you can one-shot your way through the instance. I much prefer FFXIV's method, where the content remains actual CONTENT. It's not perfect. Nobody claimed it was.

    Sapphire Weapon. Bahamut from Cid's memories. From the top of my head. I'm sure there's plenty other grand fights in solo duties.
    Now be fair. When did the MSQ dungeons come out, and when did Sapphire weapon and Bahamut from Cid's memories come out?

    Oh, significantly later, so significantly that they most likely learned a lot about MMOs and how not to do things in that time? You don't say. How convenient, right?

    You are defeating your own point. The relevant fights in the MSQ Roulettes are all personal. Livia kidnapped Minfilia, the Black Wolf directly challenges you, Lahabrea is your antagonist you even see him on the first cutsene of the game, the Ultima Weapon is there to show your growth from struggling to defeating primals to taking on a machine made to destroy them, you've overcome everything and this is your moment. This is exemplified by the cutscene at the end where all the people you've met in the story so far show up to give you the strength to defeat Lahabrea, not the other random people in the instance that are just watching netflix and making jokes on chat. These are all personal fights that are made worse by the presence of other players. If you replaced them all with named characters and officers from the three companies even that would be better than how it is right now.
    This is a VERY colored view of the events which transpire in the MSQ. Almost like the view of someone who didn't pay attention to it and/or skipped it, didn't enjoy it, and came on a forum just to complain about how you didn't enjoy it.

    It wasn't even clear Lahabrea would BE a fight in the final dungeon until he APPEARED in the final dungeon.

    And all of this ignores that back then, they rarely used NPCs for ANYTHING, and with good reason. They had absolutely no AI for NPCs. There's no possible way they could have made a fight with mechanics that NPCs could do back then that didn't look silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

  6. #446
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Yes, there is. No solo boss compares to a group boss. Ever.
    This is actually a falsehood that only really gets perpetuated because developers generally don't WANT to produce good solo content.

    Solo encounters and bosses can be well designed, enjoyable, epic, and so on. Mage Tower in WoW is a good example of that. Queen's Gauntlet in GW2 somewhat as well.

    The problem is, the bulk of the playerbase whines about any difficulty in their MMOs and developers don't get as much bang for their buck out of the effort. So they don't put that effort in, and eventually the players really start believing that it's impossible.

  7. #447
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    This is actually a falsehood that only really gets perpetuated because developers generally don't WANT to produce good solo content.

    Solo encounters and bosses can be well designed, enjoyable, epic, and so on. Mage Tower in WoW is a good example of that. Queen's Gauntlet in GW2 somewhat as well.

    The problem is, the bulk of the playerbase whines about any difficulty in their MMOs and developers don't get as much bang for their buck out of the effort. So they don't put that effort in, and eventually the players really start believing that it's impossible.
    Except that while I can't comment on Queen's Gauntlet in GW2, even the Mage Tower had complaints about being too easy, or not being difficult enough as we entered the final phases of the expansion and everyone out-geared it. And even then, it was a solo boss - It was nothing like raid content. The feeling of both were still wildly different.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

  8. #448
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    You quite literally cannot stop this from happening in several year old content.
    You can. That is literally what is being discussed here, that the instances could be tuned into solo dungeons to improve the experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Now be fair. When did the MSQ dungeons come out, and when did Sapphire weapon and Bahamut from Cid's memories come out?

    Oh, significantly later, so significantly that they most likely learned a lot about MMOs and how not to do things in that time? You don't say. How convenient, right?
    What does that have to do with the discussion? You are enforcing mine and Rogalicus' point if anything. The dungeons could be made into a better experience with current technology. Nothing is being said about their quality in reference to the developers' knowledge or technology at the time the dungeons were relevant. You made the claim no solo boss compares to a group boss, that is incorrect. Stop moving goal posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    This is a VERY colored view of the events which transpire in the MSQ. Almost like the view of someone who didn't pay attention to it and/or skipped it, didn't enjoy it, and came on a forum just to complain about how you didn't enjoy it.

    It wasn't even clear Lahabrea would BE a fight in the final dungeon until he APPEARED in the final dungeon.
    Are you confusing me with someone else? I haven't said I skipped anything or I didn't enjoy the story, the game, or even the dungeon. Moreover, I'm gonna assume you are new to story centered games, FF games, and/or JPRGs in general; It is pretty safe to assume the guy the main character has had a vision or dream of fighting in literally the first cutscene of the game will be part of the climax of the story and/or final dungeon one way or another. It is a little incredible you would accuse someone of not paying attention and skipping cutscenes while you completely miss such a basic detail.

    Either way I'm not concerned with your opinion of me or how I enjoy the game, make a real argument. I love this game and I love the story and that is why I presented an argument focused on the story to support why changing the dungeons to be solo content would be a better solution and make them more impactful. Things you claimed they couldn't be. I'll copy the argument again and see if you have anything to actually say about it this time instead of derailing:
    The relevant fights in the MSQ Roulettes are all personal. Livia kidnapped Minfilia, the Black Wolf directly challenges you, Lahabrea is your antagonist you even see him on the first cutsene of the game, the Ultima Weapon is there to show your growth from struggling to defeating primals to taking on a machine made to destroy them, you've overcome everything and this is your moment. This is exemplified by the cutscene at the end where all the people you've met in the story so far show up to give you the strength to defeat Lahabrea, not the other random people in the instance that are just watching netflix and making jokes on chat. These are all personal fights that are made worse by the presence of other players. If you replaced them all with named characters and officers from the three companies even that would be better than how it is right now.
    So please stay on topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    And all of this ignores that back then, they rarely used NPCs for ANYTHING, and with good reason. They had absolutely no AI for NPCs. There's no possible way they could have made a fight with mechanics that NPCs could do back then that didn't look silly.
    And now they do. So it could be fixed now. Which is, again, exactly what we are talking about.

    You are kind of all over the place here.
    "I have the most loyal fanboys. Did you ever see that? Where I could stand by Thoradin's Wall and massacre my own people and I wouldn't lose any fanboys. It's like incredible." - Sylvanas Windrunner

    "If you kill your enemies, they win." - Anduin Wrynn

  9. #449
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyral View Post
    You can. That is literally what is being discussed here, that the instances could be tuned into solo dungeons to improve the experience.
    Thereby changing the entire experience into something entirely different, and not what is currently experienced today. This is not what they want to do. Thank you for catching yourself up, now would you like to participate in the discussion now that you know what the discussion is about?

    What does that have to do with the discussion?
    Are you confusing me with someone else?
    So please stay on topic.
    Which is, again, exactly what we are talking about.
    You are kind of all over the place here.
    In case you're wondering why I need to say so - It seems you got confused somewhere along the line and thought we were discussing something else.

    If they WANTED to change it into something else, they could think about how, but they don't, because it also offers a leveling incentive to higher level characters.

    So the solution isn't change their minds, as much as you wish it was. The solution is fix the problem - Stop people from exploiting.

    Either way I'm not concerned with your opinion of me or how I enjoy the game, make a real argument.
    The argument is: Your opinion of the story is not at all how the story played out. You are directly manipulating how the events of the story played out, using meta knowledge, to suit your argument, when in fact what you said is not at all how the events played or felt. I don't need to re-read your headcanon to know it's not how the MSQ played out. The direct comparison to people who skip or don't pay attention at all to the story alluded to the idea that you have no idea how the story played out, because what you said vs. what actually occurred are two very different stories.

    Is that better? Do I really have to spell out to you every little thing?
    Last edited by Fleugen; 2020-09-15 at 08:27 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

  10. #450
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Thereby changing the entire experience into something entirely different, and not what is currently experienced today. This is not what they want to do. Thank you for catching yourself up, now would you like to participate in the discussion now that you know what the discussion is about?
    It doesn't matter what the dev's "want". It matters if there's a case to improve/leave the experience (and there absolutely is). Focus on that angle and don't get sidetracked. You have a few good points, but you're not doing a strong job of substantiating them. This is exactly why we discuss things like this because regardless of what the dev's current belief/stance is, there's discussion to be had regarding the experience.

    It's easy to get trapped in the belief that the devs are always right and their decision is final, but they're perfectly capable of being wrong just like any of us so don't fall back on that strawman and focus on the issues and provide insight/examples as to why you believe leaving it as is - is the optimal move.

  11. #451
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Thereby changing the entire experience into something entirely different, and not what is currently experienced today. This is not what they want to do. Thank you for catching yourself up, now would you like to participate in the discussion now that you know what the discussion is about?

    In case you're wondering why I need to say so - It seems you got confused somewhere along the line and thought we were discussing something else.

    If they WANTED to change it into something else, they could think about how, but they don't, because it also offers a leveling incentive to higher level characters.

    So the solution isn't change their minds, as much as you wish it was. The solution is fix the problem - Stop people from exploiting.
    That's wrong though, Yoshida agrees with the argument being made here and that I joined to support. It can be changed into a solo experience and it would be a better solution, though they haven't had the chance to implement it yet. A quick google finds the answer to this in one interview though I remember more than one and even forum posts on the official forums about it:
    So, will Castrum Meridianum and the Praetorium see changes too, whether skippable cutscenes or alternatives?

    Yoshi-P:
    "I do apologise but we will not be reworking these two dungeons just yet. We believe minor fixes to these dungeons are not feasible, and it will be necessary to either completely remake them as four-player dungeons or incorporate the Trust system so that they can be cleared on a solo basis.

    Although we didn't have the costs reserved for the rework on this occassion, we do plan to work on them at some point. Please wait a little longer for this."
    Source: https://www.millenium.gg/news/19660.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    You are directly manipulating how the events of the story played out, using meta knowledge, to suit your argument, when in fact what you said is not at all how the events played or felt. I don't need to re-read your headcanon to know it's not how the MSQ played out. The direct comparison to people who skip or don't pay attention at all to the story alluded to the idea that you have no idea how the story played out, because what you said vs. what actually occurred are two very different stories.
    Right, manipulating, didn't occur, none of it played out. Right.

    Livia never kidnaps Minfilia who for most of ARR is your mentor and guide. The Black Wolf doesn't share his ideology with you in a really long cutscene in the Praetorium and directly challenges, ideologically and physically, during said cutscene. The cutscene you see at the beginning of the game where you face and defeat an Ascian that you later find out is Lahabrea doesn't exist. Gaius with the Ultima Weapon never appear to one shot the primals you had previously defeated as boss fights after the Garuda fight and claims the Warrior of Light cannot stop him. And there's no cutscene at the end of Praetorium where all your friends in the story appear in your mind and give you the strength to defeat Lahabrea similarly to the opening cutscene.

    Sorry thought you were talking about FFXIV. I don't know what other game you are talking about.
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  12. #452
    Herald of the Titans Pannonian's Avatar
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    What's the fuss about MS Roulette?

    You have to do it exactly once, and then never again.

    Personally i like the easy XP + tomestones, so if you don't like it: why queue?

  13. #453
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    What's the fuss about MS Roulette?

    You have to do it exactly once, and then never again.

    Personally i like the easy XP + tomestones, so if you don't like it: why queue?
    Follow the discussion. It can be made better, which is what's being discussed. I did it often and was bored each time because it's not engaging or fun, not even the first time I went through it back in 2015 when I started. It could stand some serious improvements because as it stands the only reason I ever did it beyond the first time was because the xp it gives is ludicrous, and other methods for leveling jobs are exceedingly repetitive and dull.

  14. #454
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    Quote Originally Posted by Advent View Post
    Follow the discussion. It can be made better, which is what's being discussed. I did it often and was bored each time because it's not engaging or fun, not even the first time I went through it back in 2015 when I started. It could stand some serious improvements because as it stands the only reason I ever did it beyond the first time was because the xp it gives is ludicrous, and other methods for leveling jobs are exceedingly repetitive and dull.
    Yeah, that's somewhat my point. I'd rather they create something new instead of improving it, and therefore removing the need for it giving ludicrous amounts of xp, then i need to even more boring stuff for leveling.

    Not that i'll loose sleep over it, and i think it would be better for newer players and it could be done in a more engaging way, but for me personally i'd like to keep it as a very efficient way to get tomestones/XP.

    Ok, that may be a bit egotistic using new players for my anima weapon grinds...

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