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  1. #621
    Quote Originally Posted by Sevarin View Post
    the way he worded it "if you got out of the telegraph before it disappears AND before the ability goes off" makes me think hes trying to get out of it before the animation goes out, instead of when the telegraph is there.
    Indeed, that's usually where new players get tripped up.

    The red goes away, they move, the fireball hits the ground where they were a few seconds ago, and they die all the way across the arena from where it happened.

    It IS strange, and it DOES feel odd at first. That I won't dispute. But it absolutely works in a regular, predictable way.

  2. #622
    Quote Originally Posted by NihilSustinet View Post
    youre right to a limited degree, the ~35 GCD rotations do have *some* structure, so you arent just remembering a string of ~35 buttons, but you DO have to press those ~35 in a VERY specific order for your opener, etc. its not like other games where there is something emergent that changes how things play out based on some other factor, (like extra combo point procs for rogues in wow, runic power saving/spending for DH, rage for warrior, etc). a clever scripter would be able to macro most classes in ffxiv because their combat rotations are long, but entirely predictable.
    This is completely false. There is no 35 GCD rotation. There's nothing even close to that. And something like half of the jobs have proc based effects that have to be played around. As a simple example, Monk's rotation is simple, it's 6 positional skills with a few CDs you pop every 90s and a few CDs you weave in between those in a specific order so you maximize the damage hard hitting abilities do with max buffs up, a total of something like 12-14 buttons you use consistently for DPS. But when you pop brotherhood, you get chakras from other players in your party, which then give you forbidden chakra procs to spend in oGCD windows, but you have to avoid pushing your oGCDs with CDs out of your buff window.

    Ranged DPS tend to have a lot more procs. Like Dancer is entirely dependent upon procs.

    SMN has the most complicated rotation in the game, but like every other job, it's just weaving with CD popping and then doing things inside those CDs. It has phases, using everything takes a while, but your DPS doesn't tank because you clip something or drop an ability here or there because you're dodging, nor does GCD-level perfection matter outside of savage and ultimate progression, where your positioning is planned out for nearly the entire fight, letting you optimize your rotation and group wide CDs. Exactly like WoW.

    This is just an unrolled example of playing SMN for the first CD set, but if you did the same in WoW, you'd see things like 15 fireball casts in a row or something:


  3. #623
    Quote Originally Posted by BiggestNoob View Post
    This is completely false. There is no 35 GCD rotation. There's nothing even close to that. And something like half of the jobs have proc based effects that have to be played around. As a simple example, Monk's rotation is simple, it's 6 positional skills with a few CDs you pop every 90s and a few CDs you weave in between those in a specific order so you maximize the damage hard hitting abilities do with max buffs up, a total of something like 12-14 buttons you use consistently for DPS. But when you pop brotherhood, you get chakras from other players in your party, which then give you forbidden chakra procs to spend in oGCD windows, but you have to avoid pushing your oGCDs with CDs out of your buff window.

    Ranged DPS tend to have a lot more procs. Like Dancer is entirely dependent upon procs.

    SMN has the most complicated rotation in the game, but like every other job, it's just weaving with CD popping and then doing things inside those CDs. It has phases, using everything takes a while, but your DPS doesn't tank because you clip something or drop an ability here or there because you're dodging, nor does GCD-level perfection matter outside of savage and ultimate progression, where your positioning is planned out for nearly the entire fight, letting you optimize your rotation and group wide CDs. Exactly like WoW.

    This is just an unrolled example of playing SMN for the first CD set, but if you did the same in WoW, you'd see things like 15 fireball casts in a row or something:

    The difference is that FF14 has static rotations while WoW is dynamic because of procs.

    You don't see WoW rotations with 15 fireballs in a row because if you crit your using Fire Blast to force Hot Streak which lets you instant cast Pyro. And your reducing the time remaining on your big CD so there is no fixed 'cast this many spells until its back up'

    (I haven't played Mage in SL, it might have changed but the general idea still applies)
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  4. #624
    Quote Originally Posted by NihilSustinet View Post
    yes, gear does affect oGCD abilities, because as you get more haste you can squeeze more in between your other abilities. why do i know more about this game than you do?
    This is objectively false. This is actually the complete opposite that occurs. As you accrue more skill/spell speed you can't fit in more oGCDs, you'd actually struggle to fit your existing ones in without clipping your next GCD. Fortunately, very few if any jobs stack skill speed so egregiously so this isn't an issue, but it doubly proves that you fell for some rando's misinformation (something this community is fucking awful at managing) because not only did you get it wrong, but it's not even an actual issue to begin with.

  5. #625
    The Lightbringer Pannonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    The difference is that FF14 has static rotations while WoW is dynamic because of procs.

    You don't see WoW rotations with 15 fireballs in a row because if you crit your using Fire Blast to force Hot Streak which lets you instant cast Pyro. And your reducing the time remaining on your big CD so there is no fixed 'cast this many spells until its back up'

    (I haven't played Mage in SL, it might have changed but the general idea still applies)
    The same argument can be made for Dancer, or to a degree even red mage.

  6. #626
    Light comes from darkness shise's Avatar
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    It is a great game, but quite different from WoW. WoW is a very active, involved gameplay. FF14 is a more passive gameplay.

    FF14 is about story. Story is the absolute main thing.

    You do not have pvp. You do not have an economy (gill is mostly worthless), you do not have open world activities like in WoW.. although WoW is not that bright there either.
    Gear does not matter as much, which I think is silly... Glamour (mogs) matter more for most people.
    There is no competition on DPS or HPS.. which I also find silly. Keeping track of numbers helps you to improve. But then on the other hand, too much can be bad (like M+ in WoW.. it is the definition of toxic).


    FF14 is a good game for a relaxed, chilled game play where you are ok with being les than 50% active on your character..
    40% of the time you play you will spend reading/listening to the story.
    20% you will spend moving from point to point to keep listening/reading.

  7. #627
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    This is objectively false. This is actually the complete opposite that occurs. As you accrue more skill/spell speed you can't fit in more oGCDs, you'd actually struggle to fit your existing ones in without clipping your next GCD. Fortunately, very few if any jobs stack skill speed so egregiously so this isn't an issue, but it doubly proves that you fell for some rando's misinformation (something this community is fucking awful at managing) because not only did you get it wrong, but it's not even an actual issue to begin with.
    As a machinist playing on a US server from EU i can't fit a oGCD ricochet/gauss in between my Heatblasts without slightly delaying the next heatblast which does feel pretty awful and not how the class seemed intended to function.

  8. #628
    The Lightbringer Pannonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dlld View Post
    As a machinist playing on a US server from EU i can't fit a oGCD ricochet/gauss in between my Heatblasts without slightly delaying the next heatblast which does feel pretty awful and not how the class seemed intended to function.
    It's a sad fact that with a ping too bad, you cannot play MCH properly

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by shise View Post
    It is a great game, but quite different from WoW. WoW is a very active, involved gameplay. FF14 is a more passive gameplay.

    FF14 is about story. Story is the absolute main thing.

    You do not have pvp. You do not have an economy (gill is mostly worthless), you do not have open world activities like in WoW.. although WoW is not that bright there either.
    Gear does not matter as much, which I think is silly... Glamour (mogs) matter more for most people.
    There is no competition on DPS or HPS.. which I also find silly. Keeping track of numbers helps you to improve. But then on the other hand, too much can be bad (like M+ in WoW.. it is the definition of toxic).


    FF14 is a good game for a relaxed, chilled game play where you are ok with being les than 50% active on your character..
    40% of the time you play you will spend reading/listening to the story.
    20% you will spend moving from point to point to keep listening/reading.
    There are people using dps meters, and there is a log site (similar to wowlogs) - so it is possible and some people do care a lot about that

  9. #629
    I recently subbed back up with the entry level 12 bones, one reason, the terrible news about Blizz, also wanted to know for myself. I was in FFXIV like a week or two before it launched in early access and played for several months and was blown away, also one of my favorite podcaster's (not streamer) is all over ffxiv now (he "just started playing").

    I came back to the game 2/3 times before and was so meh, so with everyone thinking ffxiv is the greatest game of all time, ok maybe it changed into something spectacular.

    Now i'm convinced so many player are just in that honeymoon phase i was 7 years ago, i'm seriously like "i don't get it, the game is so sub par, even the rpg of it blows, far far far too many cut scenes" the game looks like from the 90's, convoluted for no reason, so many things i'm like this should open when this is open but no, you have to close this then open that WTF frustrating af, well i'm going off course here...

    I'm sure there are players out there that this is their game of games and i couldn't be more happy for you , enjoy! I'm so glad i re-subbed, as there is no doubt in my mind many players are simply in that honeymoon phase i was 7 years ago, even my fav pod-caster, and now i know i'm in no way missing out on anything, well the frustration but that's ok i can live with missing that.
    Last edited by xpsync; 2021-07-28 at 01:26 PM.
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  10. #630
    Quote Originally Posted by shise View Post
    It is a great game, but quite different from WoW. WoW is a very active, involved gameplay. FF14 is a more passive gameplay.

    FF14 is about story. Story is the absolute main thing.
    A few things wrong with what you're saying here....

    You do not have pvp.
    Yes there is, it's not open world, but there is PvP.

    You do not have an economy (gill is mostly worthless)
    Market Board is the economy, as well as carries just like in WoW. What economy does WoW have that makes it so much different/ better than FFXIV in this respect? What kind of economy would qualify for you here?

    you do not have open world activities like in WoW.. although WoW is not that bright there either.
    There are FATE's, which I'll admit aren't popular or all that great, but there IS open world content. Just like WoW has World Quests, but you've admitted those aren't great either.

    Gear does not matter as much, which I think is silly... Glamour (mogs) matter more for most people.
    Gear does matter, gearing is just super straight forward where you get a piece with a higher ilevel and it's an upgrade. That said, it really doesn't ever change your gameplay in any meaningful way. It's far more simplistic than WoW, but that doesn't mean gear doesn't matter.

    Glamour/ Transmog matters just as much in both games. The term "Glmaour/Transmog is the true end-game" is applicable to both.

    There is no competition on DPS or HPS.. which I also find silly. Keeping track of numbers helps you to improve. But then on the other hand, too much can be bad (like M+ in WoW.. it is the definition of toxic).
    It's not officially recognized, but PLENTY of people do this using ACT. And there is a log website just like WoW.

    There's a video of Yoshi-P talking about it.

    Where he basically says, the official stance is do not use them, BUT, we have no idea what software you have installed on your personal PC. So, basically, as long as you don't ever use it as some harassment tool and publicize that you are using it you're perfectly safe. If you DO publicly use and share the information that you have and are using ACT, you're risking a penalty against your account.

    FF14 is a good game for a relaxed, chilled game play where you are ok with being les than 50% active on your character..
    40% of the time you play you will spend reading/listening to the story.
    20% you will spend moving from point to point to keep listening/reading.
    This is a bit of a disingenuous argument.

    If you're saying that in a given period of time while playing the MSQ that the majority of that time is listening and reading the story, a lot of that time is spent traveling, and a small part is spent in combat...I won't argue, because when JUST focusing on the MSQ this is mostly true. There are a few exceptions, but not enough to make this an inaccurate statement.

    However, in battle, it's not accurate to say that you're only 50% active with your character.

  11. #631
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Gear does matter, gearing is just super straight forward where you get a piece with a higher ilevel and it's an upgrade. That said, it really doesn't ever change your gameplay in any meaningful way. It's far more simplistic than WoW, but that doesn't mean gear doesn't matter.
    You hear this a lot, but it's not really accurate.

    Yes, WoW has a much larger and more robust theorycrafting community that most players are exposed to regularly so people are more familiar with the concepts, but XIV has a lot of the same ideas. Not every item is better just because it's higher item level, and there are often stat breakpoints to pay attention to and meld for accordingly.

  12. #632
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    You hear this a lot, but it's not really accurate.

    Yes, WoW has a much larger and more robust theorycrafting community that most players are exposed to regularly so people are more familiar with the concepts, but XIV has a lot of the same ideas. Not every item is better just because it's higher item level, and there are often stat breakpoints to pay attention to and meld for accordingly.
    I think the melding is where it mostly happens in FFXIV, though. Most of the time, getting a piece of gear for a slot that's higher ilevel means it's an upgrade, granted if your previous piece was melded you'll need to meld this one too to and if the new piece has different stats than the previous one it might not mesh with your set-up because it changes your stat totals bringing you below the breakpoint on something.

    That said, I'm no authority on it, but in my experience it's incredibly rare for someone to get a new piece of gear that's higher ilevel than their current gear and it not be an upgrade for them, or for them to willingly choose to continue wearing the lower ilevel piece.

    The only exception I know of is pentamelded crafted gear, which IMO is so far of an outlier due to how expensive it is and therefore not available to most of the population that it should only be discussed in the context of "yeah, it exists."

  13. #633
    Pandaren Monk The Casualty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    I think the melding is where it mostly happens in FFXIV, though. Most of the time, getting a piece of gear for a slot that's higher ilevel means it's an upgrade, granted if your previous piece was melded you'll need to meld this one too to and if the new piece has different stats than the previous one it might not mesh with your set-up because it changes your stat totals bringing you below the breakpoint on something.

    That said, I'm no authority on it, but in my experience it's incredibly rare for someone to get a new piece of gear that's higher ilevel than their current gear and it not be an upgrade for them, or for them to willingly choose to continue wearing the lower ilevel piece.

    The only exception I know of is pentamelded crafted gear, which IMO is so far of an outlier due to how expensive it is and therefore not available to most of the population that it should only be discussed in the context of "yeah, it exists."
    I think most of the theorycrafting when considering gear is largely around which pieces are going to be raid pieces vs tomestone when figuring their potential caps for melding and then filling in the blanks to get those with materia. Sometimes you would pick the less obvious pieces because you needed to hit a det/ten/sks/etc... threshold.

    The other consideration is what your stats are going to look like at the beginning of the tier with crafted pieces or the week 1 drops from the normal mode unlock and itemizing for that.

    So the consideration doesn't really often factor in ilevel because the assumption is that you will get your hands on one of several equivalent ilevel options.

    Virtually every raider that is shooting for first week clears pushes pentamelded crafted gear, as well as quite a few other people just because they can - at least some of it, and it isn't as prohibitively expensive as you might think if you stock up between tiers, especially as gil has relatively little value outside of the one time purchase of a home - should there be available space to actually buy one.

    I think last tier I spent 2mil on materia because I didn't stockpile at all.

  14. #634
    The WoW rotations are mind numbingly dull.

    Seriously... these people. First it's too slow and boring, then it's too complex and fast! First it's face-roll easy, now it's "too hard".

    Now that GCD makes sense eh? Yeah... the game is good. It's your mind that needs to adapt to the new paradigm. There is great pleasure in actually learning and pulling it off.

  15. #635
    Quote Originally Posted by The Casualty View Post
    I think most of the theorycrafting when considering gear is largely around which pieces are going to be raid pieces vs tomestone when figuring their potential caps for melding and then filling in the blanks to get those with materia. Sometimes you would pick the less obvious pieces because you needed to hit a det/ten/sks/etc... threshold.

    The other consideration is what your stats are going to look like at the beginning of the tier with crafted pieces or the week 1 drops from the normal mode unlock and itemizing for that.

    So the consideration doesn't really often factor in ilevel because the assumption is that you will get your hands on one of several equivalent ilevel options.

    Virtually every raider that is shooting for first week clears pushes pentamelded crafted gear, as well as quite a few other people just because they can - at least some of it, and it isn't as prohibitively expensive as you might think if you stock up between tiers, especially as gil has relatively little value outside of the one time purchase of a home - should there be available space to actually buy one.

    I think last tier I spent 2mil on materia because I didn't stockpile at all.
    Good to know. I'll keep that in mind next time the topic comes up.

    I don't push for any of that progression stuff so don't theorycraft much so my experience is different and doesn't ever get to that level of granularity. In FFXIV it's always just higher ilevel = upgrade because of the sheer amount of primary stat differences combined with materia being able to make up for the differences, usually or mostly, and that's good enough for me. In WoW that's the case many times as well (higher ilevel = upgrade), but with different secondary and tertiary stats on every piece and the amount of number variance across each of the stats it's not uncommon to have a somewhat lower ilevel piece be better for you than a higher ilevel piece.

    It just seems more prominent in WoW than it does in FFXIV.

  16. #636
    Quote Originally Posted by Kongnic11 View Post
    I can't begin to explain how bad this game feels. I mean, the story is good and all and if that is your jam, then you will probably like it. But if you want to raid, you need to be a pianist and able to press 30 buttons like a melody. That is how complicated the rotations are! It really shows one of the best things about wow: The simple rotations!
    There haven't been rotations in wow since wrath.. its all been right proc based.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    One of the absolute worst things about wow right now are the boring simple rotations
    Play wind walker. It's pretty complex to play well. It's definitely a high ceiling class.

  17. #637
    Quote Originally Posted by The Casualty View Post
    I think most of the theorycrafting when considering gear is largely around which pieces are going to be raid pieces vs tomestone when figuring their potential caps for melding and then filling in the blanks to get those with materia. Sometimes you would pick the less obvious pieces because you needed to hit a det/ten/sks/etc... threshold.

    The other consideration is what your stats are going to look like at the beginning of the tier with crafted pieces or the week 1 drops from the normal mode unlock and itemizing for that.

    So the consideration doesn't really often factor in ilevel because the assumption is that you will get your hands on one of several equivalent ilevel options.

    Virtually every raider that is shooting for first week clears pushes pentamelded crafted gear, as well as quite a few other people just because they can - at least some of it, and it isn't as prohibitively expensive as you might think if you stock up between tiers, especially as gil has relatively little value outside of the one time purchase of a home - should there be available space to actually buy one.

    I think last tier I spent 2mil on materia because I didn't stockpile at all.
    Ran me about 7M gil last time I pentamelded, but this is a raid logger ultra casual player who just wants good logs week 1. That + food and pots out of pocket and barely plays makes it pretty prohibitive to me since I don't farm content that rewards materia in between tiers. I usually unsub and play other games. I agree with all your other points.

  18. #638
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    As the FFXIV subforum has a few threads that repeat the same themes, I've opted to consolidate critical discussion of the game into another thread. This thread will now be closed.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

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