Tearing down historical statues the European edition

[zealo]

That tends to happen when you are one of the most repressed nations in modern history.

No, that tends to happen when a country recognises a historical figure does not deserve public celebration after the fact.

Statues are not a form of historical documentation, we have museums and literature for that.

[Yadryonych]

What? Quick question... why is it when I search Wikipedia for Stalingrad and Tsaritsyn I get directed to Volgograd? What about Petrograd and Leningrad, directing to Saint Petersburg? Was Lenin or Stalin, some sort of invaders, that didn’t just take down statues... but, renamed cities?

Yes they both and their clique did exactly that, defeating predecessors in atrocious civil war and ruining countless monuments "glorifying oppressive imperial regime". Lenin "invaded" from Europe wielding Marxism (European most novel and progressive ideology) as a weapon

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Statues are not a form of historical documentation, we have museums and literature for that.

Yeah it's not like book burning has ever happed or children's books and cartoons are being censored right now

[Edge-]

Yeah it's not like book burning has ever happed or children's books and cartoons are being censored right now

I fail to see what that has to do with statues or museums. What cartoons are even being censored? Where?

[Elegiac]

I fail to see what that has to do with statues or museums. What cartoons are even being censored? Where?

LGBTQ-friendly cartoons in Russia and elsewhere. *sips tea*

[zealo]

Yeah it's not like book burning has ever happed or children's books and cartoons are being censored right now

Try harder, this is so patently transparent when you try to pull the book burning card on a post specifically mentioning literature as a means of preserving history.

Tip for you, a society that have started widely burning books won't keep statues that represent opposition to them around either.

[Yadryonych]

LGBTQ-friendly cartoons in Russia and elsewhere. *sips tea*

Oh my I finally get to retort a quirky reply with a smarty 'whataboutism' word, notorious courtesy of hamster queen

I fail to see what that has to do with statues or museums. What cartoons are even being censored? Where?

I'll pretend you actually dont know what i'm talking about and will recommend looking up "Dr Seuss ban", "Huckleberry Finn censored", and "Disney censored", maybe some 'Gone With the Wind censorship', but that's just a tip of the eisberg

[Felya]

Yes they both and their clique did exactly that, defeating predecessors in atrocious civil war and ruining countless monuments "glorifying oppressive imperial regime". Lenin "invaded" from Europe wielding Marxism (European most novel and progressive ideology) as a weapon

Did you put “invaded” in quotes, because Lenin didn’t invade? Wasn’t the opposition to involvement in WW1 and nativism in general, a large point of Lenin?

[Edge-]

I'll pretend you actually dont know what i'm talking about and will recommend looking up "Dr Seuss ban",

https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswi...-put-them-down

This? Which isn't a ban, but seems to be altering a reading initiative to be more diverse and acknowledge the fact that while Dr. Seuss wrote many fantastic books, but unfortunately contain some racist themes and imagery that was "acceptable" at the time? Not seeing the problem, you can still buy them. You can still read them.

"Huckleberry Finn censored"

https://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/07/books/07huck.html

Best I can tell is some school districts banned it from the course curriculum, and one guy tried to resolve this problem by replacing the N word with "slave". I don't say I agree with this, but it seems that the censored version never picked up any momentum and the book still exists and is widely available and accessible in its uncensored format. I don't agree with school districts banning it, but that's up to an individual district.

"Disney censored"

Turns up too much to even begin to address. Is this about Song of the South being pulled from D+ because it's racist as fuck? Disney owns the movie, they made it. Do they not have a right to decide what happens with the property that they own? Nobody is coming to take your Song of the South VHS tapes or that bootleg DVD you ripped of it.

'Gone With the Wind censorship', but that's just a tip of the eisberg

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinio...ro-ncna1230141

So HBO decided not to continue hosting the movie on their streaming service because it's racist...and? Does a company not have a right to decide what content is on their platform? I see no evidence the movie itself was changed, and again, as with Huckleberry Fin it remains widely available to purchase physically or rent digitally on multiple platforms including YouTube, Google Play, iTunes, and Amazon Video.

So I'm seeing some pearl clutching over America starting to wake up to some of the overtly racist literature and cinema throughout its history, but nothing that makes me worry about any iceberg.

[TexasRules]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...itol%20grounds.

A casual look through shows that almost all of these statues and monuments were erected in the 20th century, well after the Civil War. It has nothing to do about their "humanity" or that they were "people", these were monuments "celebrating" those traitors, and were often used to intimidate communities of color.

You don't see monuments to Hitler to remind us that he was a "person" in Germany.

What about the statue of Stalin in Seattle? Why are you not asking for it's removal?

[Edge-]

What about the statue of Stalin in Seattle? Why are you not asking for it's removal?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Lenin_(Seattle)

Since 1995 the statue has been held in trust waiting for a buyer, standing on temporary display for the last 25 years on a prominent street corner in the Fremont neighborhood of Seattle. It has become a Fremont landmark, and frequently has been decorated, or vandalized. The statue has sparked political controversy, including criticisms for communist chic and not taking the historic meaning of Lenin and communism seriously, or for taking it all too seriously, or by comparing the purported acceptance of such a charged political symbol to the removal of Confederate monuments and memorials. The monument is situated on private property, complicating efforts to remove it.

Do you oppose people being able to keep whatever they want on their private property?

[Antiganon]

Confederate statues were kept for a century and a half to remember that they too were people. Just like you and I.

If you tear down statues because "they are evil" according to your post-modern 21st century philosophy, don't cry when your statue and the statues of your heroes are torn down decades later because "you're evil" according to the people of the time.

They weren't put up until the early-mid 20th century in many (if not most) cases.

[Felya]

What about the statue of Stalin in Seattle? Why are you not asking for it's removal?

Lenin... not Stalin... I think you would have a shit fit, if that was a Trump statue, and you knew what happens to it during the big nude bicycle ride. I think by confederate standards, that would invoke complaining about it being defaces. Instead of the joke that it is...

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Lenin_(Seattle)

Do you oppose people being able to keep whatever they want on their private property?

In addition, this proves the historic necessity of statues like this. After all, nothing highlights how important statues are for history, like getting the person depicted in the statue you are complaining about wrong.

[Xarkan]

Umm.. ok deal? Nevermind that most the statues were put up less than 100 years ago

Considering the topic i have to ask what confederate statues in Europe?

This topic is more on the likes of Churchill or Leopold (or come november when the Swedes remember 1520 Christian II)

Edit: I am not comparing the 2-3 mentioned people

[Yadryonych]

Did you put “invaded” in quotes, because Lenin didn’t invade? Wasn’t the opposition to involvement in WW1 and nativism in general, a large point of Lenin?

Because he didnt invade on his own, he was delivered in a sealed train cart. And no, his point was turning imperialistic war into a civil war where progerssive proletarian (proletarian was postulated as progressive) soldiers were supposed to turn their weapons against the old order of things and "liberate" themselves and the whole world. And no, his point was extreme internationalism and opposition to any kind of nation state

[Yriel]

But, there were plenty of images. I guess they should have kept up all those, as well as the swastikas... right?

There are still plenty of images in history books and movies, do you want to burn them all?

[The Butt Witch]

These rioters are morons. They even vandalized the statue of Robert The Bruce. I had no idea there were black people in 1300s Scotland.

I bet these idiots are like "Omg, a monument to a white guy and it's not Karl Marx. RACISM!"

Also

"Direct slavery is as much the pivot upon which our present-day industrialism turns, as are machinery, credit, etc. Without slavery there would be no cotton, without cotton there would be no modern industry. It is slavery that has given value to the colonies, it is the colonies that have created world trade, and world trade is the necessary condition for large-scale machine industry. Slavery is therefore an economic category of paramount importance."
- Karl Marx -

Isn't it funny how the father of Communism is excused for supporting slavery?

[lonely zergling]

Karl Marx statues should be removed, cant support a guy who loved slavery and hated jews in current year tbh.

[Yadryonych]

These rioters are morons. They even vandalized the statue of Robert The Bruce. I had no idea there were black people in 1300s Scotland.

I bet these idiots are like "Omg, a monument to a white guy and it's not Karl Marx. RACISM!"

Also

"Direct slavery is as much the pivot upon which our present-day industrialism turns, as are machinery, credit, etc. Without slavery there would be no cotton, without cotton there would be no modern industry. It is slavery that has given value to the colonies, it is the colonies that have created world trade, and world trade is the necessary condition for large-scale machine industry. Slavery is therefore an economic category of paramount importance."
- Karl Marx -

Isn't it funny how the father of Communism is excused for supporting slavery?

It's bold of you to assume that they know how Karl Marx looked, no to say what he was saying. In fact, it doesnt even matter whose statue it is

[JohnBrown1917]

What about the statue of Stalin in Seattle? Why are you not asking for it's removal?

They don't have one.

[Yadryonych]

"Direct slavery is as much the pivot upon which our present-day industrialism turns, as are machinery, credit, etc. Without slavery there would be no cotton, without cotton there would be no modern industry. It is slavery that has given value to the colonies, it is the colonies that have created world trade, and world trade is the necessary condition for large-scale machine industry. Slavery is therefore an economic category of paramount importance."
- Karl Marx -

Isn't it funny how the father of Communism is excused for supporting slavery?

To be fair he did not support or reject slavery here and only noted its role in economical advancement