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  1. #341
    Quote Originally Posted by Laughingjack View Post
    The only thing that makes them villains in your mind is that they lost. The fact you can not grapple with that concept makes discussing historical events with you of dubious merits.
    Owning slaves makes them villains. The fact that they lost just makes them losers.

  2. #342
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    America is a country founded on protest. Fuck patriotism. If your country is doing the wrong thing than you should protest.
    america is a country founded on not paying what you owe, not meeting your responsibilities, and throwing a hissy fit when made to do so. something that still seems to define them.

    try not to forget that the tax they so much reviled to cause the revolution was 1. to pay for the prior war that kept them from being french 2. was still much lower than the tax's levied against those in Britain.

    https://www.vox.com/2015/7/2/8884885...lution-mistake

    but then it wasnt just about tax was it. it was also about the Proclamation of 1763 which gave native Americans the right to the west of america. and it was also about the growing abolitionist sentiment that only a few decades later would lead to the end of slavery across the empire,
    Anger at Dunmore's emancipation ran so deep that Thomas Jefferson included it as a grievance in a draft of the Declaration of Independence
    the American war of independence was no noble act of defiance against an oppressor, it was the act of petulant children trying to avoid paying what they owed and wanting to continue barbaric practises, but i doubt a US school would bother to teach the truth when patriotism is in vouge.

  3. #343
    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    One more time for the people out in the cheap seats

    Statues are not history.
    Removing statues is not an attempt to erase history.

    It's like a grand scale KonMari.

    Those statues no longer "bring joy" to society as a whole.
    I mean some of the statues that are being destroyed make no sense

    Ulysses S Grant

    Cervantes

    They were white people so I guess they are evil is the only thing that can come to my mind rn as the reason they destroyed these statues

  4. #344
    Quote Originally Posted by Monster Hunter View Post
    america is a country founded on not paying what you owe, not meeting your responsibilities, and throwing a hissy fit when made to do so. something that still seems to define them.

    try not to forget that the tax they so much reviled to cause the revolution was 1. to pay for the prior war that kept them from being french 2. was still much lower than the tax's levied against those in Britain.

    https://www.vox.com/2015/7/2/8884885...lution-mistake

    but then it wasnt just about tax was it. it was also about the Proclamation of 1763 which gave native Americans the right to the west of america. and it was also about the growing abolitionist sentiment that only a few decades later would lead to the end of slavery across the empire,

    the American war of independence was no noble act of defiance against an oppressor, it was the act of petulant children trying to avoid paying what they owed and wanting to continue barbaric practises, but i doubt a US school would bother to teach the truth when patriotism is in vouge.
    Both sides of that conflict have mud to sling at the other.

    It's fair to say that the war of independence was not a completely noble act...but it's also fair to say that Britain weren't exactly the "good guys" either.

  5. #345
    Quote Originally Posted by Monster Hunter View Post
    america is a country founded on not paying what you owe, not meeting your responsibilities, and throwing a hissy fit when made to do so. something that still seems to define them.
    Not every protest is righteous. Many Americans still view the War of Independence as a noble thing even if those views are misplaced. I also think that those same Americans also hold a hypocritical stance on protest. Arguably the Civil War was a protest (a shitty one) and the Lost Cause is also a protest (also a shitty one). Penn State students losing their shit because their pedophile enabling football coach was rightfully fired was also a shitty protest. They still have the right to protest.

  6. #346
    Quote Originally Posted by Chelly View Post
    So what, you'd be fine with slavery if the confederacy won?
    I imagine you would be too but I grasp how morality itself changes with the course of history a concept that people here struggle to grasp.

    I believe it stems from a lack of self reflection.

  7. #347
    Quote Originally Posted by Laughingjack View Post
    I imagine you would be too but I grasp how morality itself changes with the course of history a concept that people here struggle to grasp.

    I believe it stems from a lack of self reflection.
    Newsflash buttercup, people all around the world were against slavery with or without the northern states' victory.

    You'd know this if you weren't so self-absorbed with your psuedo-intellectual "enlightened" drivel.

  8. #348
    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    Owning slaves makes them villains. The fact that they lost just makes them losers.
    No the fact the side that won saw slavery as evil and had its morality survive makes them the villains in your mind because you inherited that mindset.

    You are nothing but a product of your past line yet you see no folly in trying to erase parts of it. It follows the same kind of logic that you only need a certain percent of your brain to live so why not cut away the bits you don't need?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chelly View Post
    Newsflash buttercup, people all around the world were against slavery with or without the victory of the northern states.

    You'd know this if you weren't so self-absorbed with your psuedo-intellectual "enlightened" drivel.
    Not all over the world Africa loved it to the point the British navy had to utterly blockade their trade routes and dealt the most devastating blow to the slave trade in history. They likely would of never slowed chaining their own people without it.

  9. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by NED funded View Post
    I mean some of the statues that are being destroyed make no sense

    Ulysses S Grant

    Cervantes

    They were censored people so I guess they are evil is the only thing that can come to my mind rn as the reason they destroyed these statues
    Be careful, this is considered a thought crime, just elaborate a reason to accuse them of being racist and cheer upon their statues removal

  10. #350
    Quote Originally Posted by Laughingjack View Post
    I imagine you would be too but I grasp how morality itself changes with the course of history a concept that people here struggle to grasp.

    I believe it stems from a lack of self reflection.
    Except even the morality of the time was against the owning of slaves.
    It's kind of the reason they were told to knock that shit off.

  11. #351
    Quote Originally Posted by Laughingjack View Post
    No the fact the side that won saw slavery as evil and had its morality survive makes them the villains in your mind because you inherited that mindset.

    You are nothing but a product of your past line yet you see no folly in trying to erase parts of it. It follows the same kind of logic that you only need a certain percent of your brain to live so why not cut away the bits you don't need?
    So you're fine with slavery?

  12. #352
    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    Except even the morality of the time was against the owning of slaves.
    It's kind of the reason they were told to knock that shit off.
    It is one of the reasons for the war yes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chelly View Post
    So you're fine with slavery?
    Is this the part where you lost the argument so your just going to try to say more and more absurd things to distract?

  13. #353
    I'm surprised we haven't removed statues of Gandhi. The dude was a grade A racist, sexist and all around egomaniac.

  14. #354
    Brewmaster Yadryonych's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monster Hunter View Post
    the American war of independence was no noble act of defiance against an oppressor, it was the act of petulant children trying to avoid paying what they owed and wanting to continue barbaric practises, but i doubt a US school would bother to teach the truth when patriotism is in vouge.
    Don't bring this up too early it's not time to deconstruct the America for being "inherently racist" yet

  15. #355
    Quote Originally Posted by Laughingjack View Post
    Is this the part where you lost the argument so your just going to try to say more and more absurd things to distract?
    What argument did I lose? You're the one going on about how everyone is only against slavery because the north won. You're not an enlightened centrist mastermind mate.

  16. #356
    Quote Originally Posted by Laughingjack View Post
    I imagine you would be too but I grasp how morality itself changes with the course of history a concept that people here struggle to grasp.

    I believe it stems from a lack of self reflection.
    Actually it stems from ignorance. If you're raised in a slave owning country, you're probably gonna be ok with slavery. Its still an immoral activity but if you don't know any better you're not likely to criticize it.

    Furthermore, explain why theft has been considered an immoral activity for several millennia but somehow slavery is ok?

    For some additional biblical reference:
    "Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death" (Exod. 21:16)

    Kidnapping has been illegal within the British Empire since the 1600s and possibly earlier.

  17. #357
    Quote Originally Posted by Laughingjack View Post
    No the fact the side that won saw slavery as evil and had its morality survive makes them the villains in your mind because you inherited that mindset.

    You are nothing but a product of your past line yet you see no folly in trying to erase parts of it. It follows the same kind of logic that you only need a certain percent of your brain to live so why not cut away the bits you don't need?
    One more time.

    Statues are not History.
    Removing, destroying, vandalizing, etc a statue does not "erase parts of it"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Laughingjack View Post
    It is one of the reasons for the war yes.
    Is this where you say "States Rights"?

    Because the "States Rights" they were concerned about were all about slavery.

  18. #358
    Quote Originally Posted by Chelly View Post
    What argument did I lose? You're the one going on about how everyone is only against slavery because the north won. You're not an enlightened centrist mastermind mate.
    I think that if you believe the person you are now would be unchanged if history wasn't the way it was well... im not really sure what to say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    One more time.

    Statues are not History.
    Removing, destroying, vandalizing, etc a statue does not "erase parts of it"

    - - - Updated - - -



    Is this where you say "States Rights"?

    Because the "States Rights" they were concerned about were all about slavery.
    Statues are art and they represent our history.

    You are on the same plane of thinking as book burners if I must be brutally honest.

  19. #359
    Quote Originally Posted by Laughingjack View Post
    I
    Statues are art and they represent our history.

    You are on the same plane of thinking as book burners if I must be brutally honest.
    So, you would be against the destruction of any piece of art?

  20. #360
    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    So, you would be against the destruction of any piece of art?
    This is a tricky question I will admit and a surprising well poised one. I would say yes but then it would beg the question what is art?

    I am certain you could find thousands of obviously done as a tax write off modern art i wouldn't bat an eyelash if it was destroyed (looking at you banana taped to a wall). Though despite my dismissal of it there are those that see it as art.

    So I suppose the honest answer would be perhaps.

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