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  1. #561
    Merely a Setback JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    Over a 100k seems substantial...

    - - - Updated - - -



    A communist, but claim that it’s not the bad part of communism? The confederates and supporters of genocidal twats, are doing the same. Because, they are not claiming to support genocidal parts either, just like you are.
    If you still can't understand the difference between Marx's Anarcho-communism and Stalin's state communism, I really don't know what to say.
    But just a hint, the anarchists all got killed by Stalin.
    Communism will win.

  2. #562
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CommunismWillWin View Post
    If you still can't understand the difference between Marx's Anarcho-communism and Stalin's state communism, I really don't know what to say.
    If you still can’t understand the great achievements of these men and think it’s all about slavery or tyranny, I really don’t know what to say.

    But just a hint, the anarchists all got killed by Stalin.
    Yeah, he also erected a lot of statues with the symbol in your avatar. Yet, I don’t see you demand those torn down. It’s like a double standard or something... he killed “anarchist” under the flag carrying the same symbol as your avatar.
    As above, so below.
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  3. #563
    The Undying Themius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zan15 View Post
    You are the one who went off on the tangent and said....



    We were talking about how the extra $600 a week was being compared only to salary and not salary and benefits.
    You discounted my argument and math.

    I went on to give math on how much difference the 600 really was once you factored in benefits.

    You then went on about insurance not being substantial which is ridiculous because any insurance product is substantial




    Paying off 8k vs paying off a million? that sure sounds, oh I don't know substantial?

    What are the odds of your friend paying off 12k over time vs having to pay 120k off over time? Would you say, oh I don't know....substantially higher odds against the 120k at that salary.


    really no shit and how much "huger" is the amount if they have ZERO insurance.

    The whole discussion before you took this tangent was how the 600 dollars was also to pay for the employers portion of the health insurance premium the person was no longer going to receive. the 600 was not meant to just replace salary and give people bonuses.

    at the time my mom was making 31k a year and she was the only income as my father was disabled and was yet to be approved for disability or early Medicare. Again insurance might have cost her a substantial portion of her income. She might have owed 8k before insurance kicked in, but in the end my father did not end up with a MILLION FUCKING DOLLAR BILL he would not have been able to pay off thus losing his home, his car, his retirement (what little he had), etc etc etc

    Sure sounds fucking wonderfully substantial.
    The lack of work and usual size of households usually means the person qualified for Medicaid which is better than any benefit. Did you factor that

    Basing benefits purely on the most catastrophic outcome is folly.

  4. #564
    Merely a Setback JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post



    Yeah, he also erected a lot of statues with the symbol in your avatar. Yet, I don’t see you demand those torn down. It’s like a double standard or something... he killed “anarchist” under the flag carrying the same symbol as your avatar.
    The same symbol used by anarcho-communism, so I could give less of a fuck about whether it hurts your little feelings.


    If you still can’t understand the great achievements of these men and think it’s all about slavery or tyranny, I really don’t know what to say.
    Oh, so that is what this is all about, you want to support Stalin.

    Yeah, stop dragging me into your little hero worshipping.
    [Infraction]
    Last edited by Rozz; 2020-06-26 at 02:57 PM. Reason: Minor Trolling
    Communism will win.

  5. #565
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CommunismWillWin View Post
    The same symbol used by anarcho-communism, so I could give less of a fuck about whether it hurts your little feelings.
    @DKjaigen and @Yadryonych enjoy... a lesson in how to make your arguments. Feel free to copy and paste this, every time he bitches about statues.

    Edit: Also, nit pick, but funny none the less... “could give less of a fuck” doesn’t actually mean anything... It’s couldn’t... lol

    Oh, so that is what this is all about, you want to support Stalin.
    I’m a refugee from USSR... that symbol is one of oppression, not just for those who were oppressed and murdered under Stalin, but the same ones from Cuba and China. That symbol means forced labor camps, Holomodor and murder of opposition.

    You are now making the same exact argument as every single person defending statues, that you have been arguing with.

    Yeah, stop dragging me into your little hero worshipping.
    What? Compose your self and try again...
    Last edited by Felya; 2020-06-25 at 12:42 PM.
    As above, so below.
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above corresponds to that which is Below, to accomplish the miracle of the One Thing.

  6. #566
    Old God Grimbold21's Avatar
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    As I suggest on my earlier posts:

    Either we have one hell of a strategy set up there (and here) to undermine a worthy cause, or, indeed, there are people who are indiscriminately looking and damaging things because of their reductionist perspective.

  7. #567
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimbold21 View Post
    As I suggest on my earlier posts:

    Either we have one hell of a strategy set up there (and here) to undermine a worthy cause, or, indeed, there are people who are indiscriminately looking and damaging things because of their reductionist perspective.
    The only thing this thread proves is that there are significant gaps in understanding history, regardless of the argument being made. Neither those that claim statues teach history nor those who demand their destruction, have a fucking clue what they are talking about. This thread is an indictment of education systems all over the word...
    As above, so below.
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above corresponds to that which is Below, to accomplish the miracle of the One Thing.

  8. #568
    ^^that, and we see people who aren't interested in neither convincing others of the validity of an argument, or convincing others they want you on their side.
    They're only interested in arguing just to fuck everyone.

  9. #569
    I am Murloc! Thekri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimbold21 View Post
    As I suggest on my earlier posts:

    Either we have one hell of a strategy set up there (and here) to undermine a worthy cause, or, indeed, there are people who are indiscriminately looking and damaging things because of their reductionist perspective.
    Pretty much. The entire debate consists primarily of people who do not understand history, and do not wish too, imposing their political, racial, and cultural identities onto past figures, and then having a fight about it. Neither side is interested in nuance or actual history, and went they want to yell about "History is important" what they mean is that their current identity is important, and they are coopting the past to support their current goals.

    Destroying stuff is not a productive approach. Understanding stuff is. I fully agree with some of these efforts, Confederate statues should not be on outdoor public display, however, that doesn't mean that smashing every historical statue you see is the right move. I don't even like destroying the most racist statues, I would prefer to preserve them in a different context, as an example of what institutional racism looks like.

    I am all for empathy and understanding the different perspectives. As I have posted here, I do understand the argument of those that want to preserve statues of controversial figures. I disagree with some examples, and agree with others. I also understand the point of view of people that just want them gone. But dialogue is not a goal for either side here. Many people seem to be using this as an excuse to break stuff that is important to the other side, just to see them get angry.
    "We have it totally under control. It’s one person coming in from China. We have it under control. It’s going to be just fine." DJT- Jan 22, 2020
    "And again, when you have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero, that’s a pretty good job we’ve done." DJT- Feb 26, 2020
    “It’s going to disappear. One day — it’s like a miracle — it will disappear.” DJT- Feb 27, 2020

  10. #570
    Old God Grimbold21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    The only thing this thread proves is that there are significant gaps in understanding history, regardless of the argument being made. Neither those that claim statues teach history nor those who demand their destruction, have a fucking clue what they are talking about. This thread is an indictment of education systems all over the word...
    True, to an extent.

    But I find it hard to myself to budge from the point that the... overthrowing side is ideologically fueled.

    Sure, History can be taught to be more about presenting a balanced overview, as opposed to be about all guts and glory. But we can't just reduce someone's character and actions to a single facet or moment of their lives because it happens to coincide with the thing that your movement is fighting agaisnt.

    I made the point on the 1st page, but I would wager that Churchill is celebrated widely because of his role during WWII. Now, what can be done is verify if history taught in his schools there can factor in the downsides and unfortunate events, and if so, teach them.

    Moreover, it's hard to not frame this indiscriminate toppling as anything but "look at that, it's a statue of a white figure, let's take it down". But I concede the risk that this may be a media driven misinterpretation.

  11. #571
    I am Murloc! Thekri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimbold21 View Post
    True, to an extent.

    But I find it hard to myself to budge from the point that the... overthrowing side is ideologically fueled.

    Sure, History can be taught to be more about presenting a balanced overview, as opposed to be about all guts and glory. But we can't just reduce someone's character and actions to a single facet or moment of their lives because it happens to coincide with the thing that your movement is fighting agaisnt.

    I made the point on the 1st page, but I would wager that Churchill is celebrated widely because of his role during WWII. Now, what can be done is verify if history taught in his schools there can factor in the downsides and unfortunate events, and if so, teach them.

    Moreover, it's hard to not frame this indiscriminate toppling as anything but "look at that, it's a statue of a white figure, let's take it down". But I concede the risk that this may be a media driven misinterpretation.
    Sort of agreed. Sort of.

    This is where nuance is important, and nuance is lacking in the conversation right now. My view is that we have to look exactly what part of the persons life is being celebrated or memorialized in that context. So although I have been extremely critical of Churchill for several pages now, I don't think his statues should be removed, because those statues are clearly memorializing his contributions as the emotional center of the British psyche during WWII. As such, context would be good, but I don't feel removal is warranted, even though I will continue to deride him as an immoral and ineffective leader.

    On the other hand, I feel confederate statues do need to be removed, because the primary cause for memorialization is their role in an armed revolt against the government, with the express and stated intention of preserving racial slavery. Just as I think Churchill's statues should stay, in spite of him being a terrible person, we need to remove Confederate Statues, even if they were personally good people (Which is EXTREMELY debatable, but I have no interest in quibbling over each individual). The cause itself is rotten. The reason the statues exist was wrong from its beginnings. This is also why I think we can defend having statues of Washington and Jefferson, who were both plantation owners, without being hypocritical. While their individual actions toward their slaves were not better or necessarily worse then various confederate generals, it is the cause that is different. People like Andrew Jackson are... I am open to debate on that one. Wouldn't hurt my feelings to see him gone from public memorials.

    I do acknowledge my view on this is not necessarily the only correct one, but I do think any approach has to be nuanced, and not boil people down into "good" and "bad" categories. All humans are both.
    "We have it totally under control. It’s one person coming in from China. We have it under control. It’s going to be just fine." DJT- Jan 22, 2020
    "And again, when you have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero, that’s a pretty good job we’ve done." DJT- Feb 26, 2020
    “It’s going to disappear. One day — it’s like a miracle — it will disappear.” DJT- Feb 27, 2020

  12. #572
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    The lack of work and usual size of households usually means the person qualified for Medicaid which is better than any benefit. Did you factor that


    sigh...

    private coverage..i only said it a half dozen times in every number I listed.

    24.7 percent of people in households with incomes below $25,000, the lowest income category, had private coverage in 2018
    47.9 percent of people in households with household income of $25,000 to $49,999, had private coverage in 2018.
    65.9 percent of people in households with household income of $50,00 to $74,999, had private coverage in 2018.

    I also said "a substantial amount of those people who are getting the 600 dollars had to replace the private coverage they had. This does not include public coverage (Medicaid) since most of that is cost free."


    Also thanks to the 600 dollars and your standard unemployment payments, the unemployed income generally in most states will be too high to qualify for Medicaid. You might still get some ACA subsidies though. You have to report every income change to both Medicaid and the ACA and your premiums and qualification can be impacted by the change.




    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Basing benefits purely on the most catastrophic outcome is folly.
    Ok what about an average outcomes.
    Pregnancy?
    Pay 8k or pay 30-50k depending on type of pregnancy.
    on top of that newborn care another oh 10k to shit ton more, depending on health and time of birth.

    or how about the 28-30 million people with diabetes

    People with diagnosed diabetes incur average medical expenditures of $16,752 per year
    So with insurance you pay out of pocket 8k. without 16k.
    seems substantial for low income workers right?

    I can keep going with things that are not so catastrophic if you want?
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  13. #573
    The Undying Themius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zan15 View Post
    sigh...

    private coverage..i only said it a half dozen times in every number I listed.

    24.7 percent of people in households with incomes below $25,000, the lowest income category, had private coverage in 2018
    47.9 percent of people in households with household income of $25,000 to $49,999, had private coverage in 2018.
    65.9 percent of people in households with household income of $50,00 to $74,999, had private coverage in 2018.

    I also said "a substantial amount of those people who are getting the 600 dollars had to replace the private coverage they had. This does not include public coverage (Medicaid) since most of that is cost free."


    Also thanks to the 600 dollars and your standard unemployment payments, the unemployed income generally in most states will be too high to qualify for Medicaid. You might still get some ACA subsidies though. You have to report every income change to both Medicaid and the ACA and your premiums and qualification can be impacted by the change.






    Ok what about an average outcomes.
    Pregnancy?
    Pay 8k or pay 30-50k depending on type of pregnancy.
    on top of that newborn care another oh 10k to shit ton more, depending on health and time of birth.

    or how about the 28-30 million people with diabetes

    People with diagnosed diabetes incur average medical expenditures of $16,752 per year
    So with insurance you pay out of pocket 8k. without 16k.
    seems substantial for low income workers right?

    I can keep going with things that are not so catastrophic if you want?
    You realise you should be adding an extra 7k on top of that right so you should be saying 15k for that pregnancy not 30-50k.

    Do you think insurance suddenly rids you of monthly premiums?

  14. #574
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    You realise you should be adding an extra 7k on top of that right so you should be saying 15k for that pregnancy not 30-50k.

    Do you think insurance suddenly rids you of monthly premiums?
    I figured that was an basic assumption of our discussion.

    ok so

    Pay 15k or pay 30-50k depending on type of pregnancy.

    well shit. that really changes it.


    BTW I didn't get into nick picky detail but you can get plans on the ACA with 4k out of pocket that cost substantially less than 7k a year for an individual making the income we are talking about.
    "The American people should have a voice in the selection of their next Supreme Court Justice. Therefore, this vacancy should not be filled until we have a new president," - McConnell
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  15. #575
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenJesus View Post
    Slippery slope has actually been pretty accurate in recent times. "Lol.. what will they do next? Tear down Thomas Jefferson or George Washington?" And look. They are trying to do that now.

    Unemployment checks of $600 a week during corona? "Give us this unemployment check forever so we never have to work again!"

    Once you give an inch, they'll try to steal a mile.
    Enough pages passed by the time I saw this response that I wanted to let it go, but man, this is some nuttery. I don't want to drive this too far off topic, but...

    Conservatives: "We need to reopen and sacrifice people to coronavirus because THE ECONOMY! People need money!"

    Also conservatives: "We need to let millions fall into financial ruin and cause economic collapse because it's so unfair that they get money!"

    It's as if you guys don't actually have any beliefs or principles or convictions, and just scream anything that conservative media puts in your ear regardless how contradictory or how toxic or how absolutely nonsense it may be.

  16. #576
    Elemental Lord GreenJesus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapemask View Post
    Enough pages passed by the time I saw this response that I wanted to let it go, but man, this is some nuttery. I don't want to drive this too far off topic, but...

    Conservatives: "We need to reopen and sacrifice people to coronavirus because THE ECONOMY! People need money!"

    Also conservatives: "We need to let millions fall into financial ruin and cause economic collapse because it's so unfair that they get money!"

    It's as if you guys don't actually have any beliefs or principles or convictions, and just scream anything that conservative media puts in your ear regardless how contradictory or how toxic or how absolutely nonsense it may be.
    That wasn't my point. They want the uncle sam bucks to keep flowing even after corona is over.

  17. #577
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenJesus View Post
    That wasn't my point. They want the uncle sam bucks to keep flowing even after corona is over.
    Easy, raise taxes on people earning lots of money. Revoke the Trump Tax Cuts.

    It isn't like the US doesn't have the money to afford it. And the money given to the unemployed will go right back into circulation.
    - Lars

  18. #578
    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    Why don't ask Britons? Oh wait they have already been asked

    [IMG]https://image2.slideserve.com/4522482/greatest-briton-l.jpg[IMG]
    Given that people here are only really taught the "good" things Churchill did, it isn't surprising. You're practically conditioned to think he was some amazing, infallible figure of history.

  19. #579
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimbold21 View Post
    Sure, History can be taught to be more about presenting a balanced overview, as opposed to be about all guts and glory. But we can't just reduce someone's character and actions to a single facet or moment of their lives because it happens to coincide with the thing that your movement is fighting agaisnt.
    But, a statue is explicitly capturing a single moment. A moment that very often glorifying people, beyond both their historical stature, relevance or realistic representation. On just a superficial level, if looking by statues, the skin care in those days was immaculate. Without context, most statues misrepresent history, not teach it.

    I made the point on the 1st page, but I would wager that Churchill is celebrated widely because of his role during WWII. Now, what can be done is verify if history taught in his schools there can factor in the downsides and unfortunate events, and if so, teach them.
    But, if people see beyond the widely celebrated, doesn’t that mean they are better educated? Unless they are wrong...

    Moreover, it's hard to not frame this indiscriminate toppling as anything but "look at that, it's a statue of a white figure, let's take it down". But I concede the risk that this may be a media driven misinterpretation.
    It’s not media driven... the vast majority of statues, specifically from these time periods are of white people. There are no statues of people freeing slaves, that aren’t relatively recent. For example, the Lincoln statue people were using as an example of going too far, were ignoring the black man on his knees also depicted on the same statue.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by GreenJesus View Post
    That wasn't my point. They want the uncle sam bucks to keep flowing even after corona is over.
    Uhm... I pay taxes, not some uncle. The point of me paying taxes, is in part for a social safety net. Yes, people want their taxes to go to helping them in time of need. Complain to the corporations that got a 15% tax cut during a booming economy, but are still demanding tax payer money to stay afloat. Thanks to Trump, there has been a 14% shift in taxes paid by income tax comprising a larger part of all taxes, because corporate taxes dropped so much.

    If anything, shouldn’t you be demanding justice, when we don’t have money to pay for a pandemic, with a billionaire for president that argued him paying 0 taxes was smart? Those are not Uncle Sam bucks and the current president celebrates contributing nothing.
    As above, so below.
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above corresponds to that which is Below, to accomplish the miracle of the One Thing.

  20. #580
    Merely a Setback JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muzjhath View Post
    Easy, raise taxes on people earning lots of money. Revoke the Trump Tax Cuts.

    It isn't like the US doesn't have the money to afford it. And the money given to the unemployed will go right back into circulation.
    Yeah but they need money to bomb weddings and hospitals in the middle east.
    Communism will win.

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