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  1. #581
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimbold21 View Post
    Sure, History can be taught to be more about presenting a balanced overview, as opposed to be about all guts and glory. But we can't just reduce someone's character and actions to a single facet or moment of their lives because it happens to coincide with the thing that your movement is fighting agaisnt.
    But, a statue is explicitly capturing a single moment. A moment that very often glorifying people, beyond both their historical stature, relevance or realistic representation. On just a superficial level, if looking by statues, the skin care in those days was immaculate. Without context, most statues misrepresent history, not teach it.

    I made the point on the 1st page, but I would wager that Churchill is celebrated widely because of his role during WWII. Now, what can be done is verify if history taught in his schools there can factor in the downsides and unfortunate events, and if so, teach them.
    But, if people see beyond the widely celebrated, doesn’t that mean they are better educated? Unless they are wrong...

    Moreover, it's hard to not frame this indiscriminate toppling as anything but "look at that, it's a statue of a white figure, let's take it down". But I concede the risk that this may be a media driven misinterpretation.
    It’s not media driven... the vast majority of statues, specifically from these time periods are of white people. There are no statues of people freeing slaves, that aren’t relatively recent. For example, the Lincoln statue people were using as an example of going too far, were ignoring the black man on his knees also depicted on the same statue.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by GreenJesus View Post
    That wasn't my point. They want the uncle sam bucks to keep flowing even after corona is over.
    Uhm... I pay taxes, not some uncle. The point of me paying taxes, is in part for a social safety net. Yes, people want their taxes to go to helping them in time of need. Complain to the corporations that got a 15% tax cut during a booming economy, but are still demanding tax payer money to stay afloat. Thanks to Trump, there has been a 14% shift in taxes paid by income tax comprising a larger part of all taxes, because corporate taxes dropped so much.

    If anything, shouldn’t you be demanding justice, when we don’t have money to pay for a pandemic, with a billionaire for president that argued him paying 0 taxes was smart? Those are not Uncle Sam bucks and the current president celebrates contributing nothing.
    As above, so below.
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  2. #582
    Merely a Setback JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muzjhath View Post
    Easy, raise taxes on people earning lots of money. Revoke the Trump Tax Cuts.

    It isn't like the US doesn't have the money to afford it. And the money given to the unemployed will go right back into circulation.
    Yeah but they need money to bomb weddings and hospitals in the middle east.
    Joe Biden and Donald Trump are rapist and their supporters are rape apologists

    Capitalism is the most deadly system to ever be used in the history of humankind

  3. #583
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenJesus View Post
    That wasn't my point. They want the uncle sam bucks to keep flowing even after corona is over.
    As part of a longer term recovery? You bet your ass. Just because the immediate threat will eventually be over doesn't mean things will go back to normal.

    And frankly, for a lot of folks, unemployment doesn't fucking cut it in the slightest. It's not a permanent program, and knowing many folks on it they'd rather be back at work where they can get health care and other benefits that they cannot receive on unemployment, so this is largely a non-issue.

    It's a conservative strawman in the vein of, "Oh, but the welfare queens!" and every other bullshit attack on social safety nets.

  4. #584
    Old God Grimbold21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    But, a statue is explicitly capturing a single moment. A moment that very often glorifying people, beyond both their historical stature, relevance or realistic representation. On just a superficial level, if looking by statues, the skin care in those days was immaculate. Without context, most statues misrepresent history, not teach it.



    But, if people see beyond the widely celebrated, doesn’t that mean they are better educated? Unless they are wrong...



    It’s not media driven... the vast majority of statues, specifically from these time periods are of white people. There are no statues of people freeing slaves, that aren’t relatively recent. For example, the Lincoln statue people were using as an example of going too far, were ignoring the black man on his knees also depicted on the same statue.
    Are they mutually exclusive?

    You can have a more comprehensive knowledge of History or of a historical figure and still understand or accept the motive behind the erection of a statue.

    But that's the problem. It's the either the ignorance of History or knowledge of it - or of one aspect of it - and wanting (or doing it) to tear them down. It's indiscriminate. It's the observing whatever represents "white" and intending on removing, regardless of the context.

    There's been cases of statues of figures that represented noble causes and they're still assailed.

  5. #585
    Quote Originally Posted by josykay View Post
    Germany winning against the UK is... a fantasy nothing less. The Battle of Britain caused severe losses for the Luftwaffe, Germany could never really recover. The naval power of Germany was... well pretty much second rate. Italy fielded more, and arguably even better ships, which was more hindered by individual stupidity and faulty quality control. Germany was never in the position to invade the UK. Even more so, after the losses at Norway... 1 Heavy Cruiser down, 4 remaining. 2 Light cruisers down, 4 remaining, approximatly half the destroyer forces down.... And we still have the issue, that Germany had only 1, battleship, that could effectivly fight against british battleships and battlecruisers. Scharnhorst and Gneisenau could not with insufficient armament. You do not get naval supremacy, to be capable for invasion with 1 battleship, 2 "battlecruisers", 4 heavy cruisers, 4 Light cruiers, and some destroyers, against 11 battleships, 3 battlecruisers, 15 Heavy Cruisers 32 Light Cruisers, around 65 destroyers, and 4? if i remember correctly aicraft carrier. No naval supremacy.. no invasion. Insufficient submarine numbers to starve the UK..

    Even after Italy binding some forces in the Mediterranian... not enough.
    Quite debatable, until the attack on the USSR (yes, I am aware that air battle ended before that. Germany could not afford to put all eggs in one basket), which made Germany split it's forces and the involvement of USA which ensured that any convoy losses would be replaced. The big fleet UK had did not really do much to stop the subs, the danger of starving UK out was real. It all changed later, but... a lot of things changed later.
    Germany did make enough mistakes in the air raids and in the intelligence, which played it's role.

    Alone? I dont think that in the long run UK had a chance of outproducing the Germany controlling most of Europe, when starved by subs.
    Churchill kept the country fighting, especially after the shocking defeat of France, when they might have surrendered more due to the shock than the actualy military situation.
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    IF IM STUPID, so is Donald Trump.

  6. #586
    All confederate statues should be taken down. Military bases should not be flying the Confederate flag. Confederates lost. We will never forget their history and we will definitely still teach all that in school. Monuments/statues are generally built to remember someone or some event. Generally as a thank you or a memory of sorrow. Confederate generals shouldn't be thanked. They lost the war and weren't fighting for the side of true freedom. They were wrong.

    Those statues can be destroyed or put in a museum. They should not exist in a public space.

    Now a statue of Union generals or people that were fighting to end slavery.. Those probably shouldn't be destroyed.
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    I don't know what you are watching, but it isn't fucking reality.
    Hes talking about me saying Joe Biden has dementia. LOL

  7. #587

  8. #588
    The Undying Themius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NED funded View Post
    Weve moved to Abraham Lincoln of all people

    https://wkow.com/2020/06/25/student-...rom-uw-campus/

    why no context?

    "I grew up thinking Abraham Lincoln was this great president, and this really great figure that freed the slaves, because that's what I was taught in high school," she said. "But the Emancipation Proclamation was just a small part."

    McWhorter is the president of UW's Black Student Union, and while Lincoln did free the slaves, she says his legacy is much more complicated.

    "He signed a lot of acts, like The Homestead Act, The Railway Act, that displaced a lot of Native Americans, displaced them off their land," she said. "Although he freed the slaves, he freed them and gave them no rights, no reparations."

    The Black Student Union is now calling on UW to remove Lincoln from Bascom Hill, where he's overlooked part of campus and much of Madison for more than 100 years.

    "We want to see the complete removal of Abraham Lincoln," she said.
    They also want a giant stone removed, which used to be called "Niggerhead" and was renamed.

  9. #589
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    ^^that, and we see people who aren't interested in neither convincing others of the validity of an argument, or convincing others they want you on their side.
    They're only interested in arguing just to fuck everyone.
    You just summed up almost every post in the political thread. Notice how things always dissolve in to an agenda about progressive American politics. This thread was supposed to be about Europe, but can't have that. Hell I would have even thought the statue of Stalin in Seattle would get mentioned. But your argument is moot as no one here wants to hear the side of someone opposite them, or consider they may have a salient point.

    I do believe it is neither/nor or either/or though.

  10. #590
    Merely a Setback cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasRules View Post
    You just summed up almost every post in the political thread. Notice how things always dissolve in to an agenda about progressive American politics. This thread was supposed to be about Europe, but can't have that. Hell I would have even thought the statue of Stalin in Seattle would get mentioned. But your argument is moot as no one here wants to hear the side of someone opposite them, or consider they may have a salient point.

    I do believe it is neither/nor or either/or though.
    People want intelligent discourse on the issues of our times. Just because you fail, in every instance, to meet that requirement makes you think that "no one here wants to hear the side of someone opposite them", but that's just because you can't uphold your side of a discussion.

    The statues of Europe being torn down definitively impact those issues in the United States. How you can't see that this would eventually include the United States in the discussion is just one of the many blinders you purposefully wear.

  11. #591
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    why no context?



    They also want a giant stone removed, which used to be called "Niggerhead" and was renamed.
    The context is that these people are dumb

  12. #592
    The Undying Themius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NED funded View Post
    The context is that these people are dumb
    Why? Did you ignore context? He freed slaves but did horrible things that displaced already horribly oppressed Native Americans.

    You think it is "dumb" that people take that into consideration?

  13. #593
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Why? Did you ignore context? He freed slaves but did horrible things that displaced already horribly oppressed Native Americans.

    You think it is "dumb" that people take that into consideration?
    Abraham Lincoln died while ending slavery he could have not done anything more because he was assasinated before the reconstruction.

    They are still dumb

  14. #594
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    Quote Originally Posted by NED funded View Post
    Weve moved to Abraham Lincoln of all people

    https://wkow.com/2020/06/25/student-...rom-uw-campus/

    They've been defacing statues of Sir John A MacDonald here recently. Can't say I'm surprised considering he pretty much founded the residential schools program in Canada.

  15. #595
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    Quote Originally Posted by NED funded View Post
    Abraham Lincoln died while ending slavery
    I wonder if he would have changed his mind seeing all that gratefulness

  16. #596
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    People want intelligent discourse on the issues of our times. Just because you fail, in every instance, to meet that requirement makes you think that "no one here wants to hear the side of someone opposite them", but that's just because you can't uphold your side of a discussion.

    The statues of Europe being torn down definitively impact those issues in the United States. How you can't see that this would eventually include the United States in the discussion is just one of the many blinders you purposefully wear.
    Intelligent discourse? You guys complain and get me banned and the moderators tell me to complain about you specifically and report YOU. But I am not coward like your censoring friends. You want inner circle discourse. You want people to agree with you, you could care less what anyone else thinks, that is why you disagree with anyone who is not voting Biden. You get mad at people who do not like Biden so won't vote for him and say it's a vote for Trump, even though they are not voting Trump. You obviously do not want people to use their freedom unless it matches your choice. So do not give me any of your intelligent discourse. Nobody on here is ranting mad about U.S. Grant or Stevie Ray Vaughn being torn down. Because they are not on your agenda. I am sorry that you have to include your "my view or no view" agenda aka blue no matter what in to every conversation. But I have the blinders. Me and the 120 million people with coronavirus.

  17. #597
    Quote Originally Posted by TexasRules View Post
    But I have the blinders. Me and the 120 million people with coronavirus.
    Uhm... Yes, blinders... You complain that Biden misspoke million, instead of thousand... while Trump is held a super spreader event just last week. When Trump calls it a hoax, did he misspeak and meant to say tragedy? You know why Trump just polled 1% lower than Biden in Texas? Because people are sick of Trump’s insults and general bullshit... like complaining that Biden said million, instead of thousand... the same day Trump is forced to release children he is holding in cages, because Kung Flu is running rampant.

    FYI, when Trump calls corona the Kung Flu, he isn’t misspeaking a million, when he means thousand. China didn’t force Trump to go on national television and ponder injecting disinfectant. It’s why Biden has already signed up for the 3 scheduled debates, while Trump’s campaign is refusing to sign, while desperately trying to get moderators of their choosing. This is while Trump, is bitching about Biden avoiding debates... even though Trump is the only one refusing to sign up for the debates, until they change to fit Trump.
    As above, so below.
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    Don’t click random links on forums.

  18. #598
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    Uhm... Yes, blinders... You complain that Biden misspoke million, instead of thousand... while Trump is held a super spreader event just last week. When Trump calls it a hoax, did he misspeak and meant to say tragedy? You know why Trump just polled 1% lower than Biden in Texas? Because people are sick of Trump’s insults and general bullshit... like complaining that Biden said million, instead of thousand... the same day Trump is forced to release children he is holding in cages, because Kung Flu is running rampant.

    FYI, when Trump calls corona the Kung Flu, he isn’t misspeaking a million, when he means thousand. China didn’t force Trump to go on national television and ponder injecting disinfectant. It’s why Biden has already signed up for the 3 scheduled debates, while Trump’s campaign is refusing to sign, while desperately trying to get moderators of their choosing. This is while Trump, is bitching about Biden avoiding debates... even though Trump is the only one refusing to sign up for the debates, until they change to fit Trump.
    Are you seriously believing those lies that are well and readily debunked.

  19. #599
    Quote Originally Posted by DKjaigen View Post
    Are you seriously believing those lies that are well and readily debunked.
    If you are interested in debunking what I said, with what I am sure is an imaginative adventure in ‘what he really meant’ and ‘what about’, I’ve moved it here:

    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ssion/page2519

    Going way off topic as it is...
    As above, so below.
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    Don’t click random links on forums.

  20. #600
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenJesus View Post

    It's real easy to just sit there on your computer and complain about heroes in the past that weren't perfect or made mistakes while ignoring the great achievements and strides they made for humandkind.
    You could flip that and say it is easy to argue about heroes in the past being perfect, or made great achievements whilst ignoring/dismissing the horrible things they have done. I mean, I take your point, most historical figures if judged by today's standards would be considered a vile bigot on at least one issue, when you people teaching you your ABC's are also filling your head with bigoted nonsense, it shouldn't be a surprise that the person has questionable views on things. And I agree that this doesn't mean we should ignore any good or great deeds that they accomplished. I don't however think it precludes looking at their attitudes, especially when some are rather out there, and especially when they are accompanied by deeds that cost millions of lives.

    I think this is more nuanced than people want it to be, and emotions are running high on either side. I think even monsters should have any good, or great deeds remembered, and even saints should have their flaws shown. One side is too focused on the flaws, and can't understand why people would want to memorialise them, the other side is too focused on the "great deeds", and can't understand why people want to look at the flaws and remember them in a different way/forget them altogether.

    Now I don't support the removal of the statues in the way that it has been done. I do think you can have a statue of someone who has done some great deed, even if they did terrible things. It isn't that the symbols are coming down, so much as how it is done. I don't like mob rule. The fact is that many people want the statues to remain, that simply cannot be ignored and overruled by a mob. As we have seen, it just creates a counter mob. People might not like the reasons people have for wanting a statue to remain, but when you decide their feelings and views don't matter as they don't align with yours, I don't like the territory that ventures into. Heck, here in Scotland, a statue to Robert Bruce was vandalised for being racist, despite him being dead for several centuries before the forming of the British Empire, and whatever the historical misconceptions, is a symbol in Scotland against oppression. When certain action is shown to be acceptable, despite there not being a clear consensus that it is, it can draw out morons who want to join in with the chaos/get caught up in the rush.

    The flip is also worth talking about. I think for too long people have ignored calls for debate and discussion on removing/changing statues. Just as I think the people who want to keep them should be heard and not automatically dismissed, it is also true for the ones that want them gone. I personally do not have a problem with wanting to change/remove statues, many of them I actually support, I don't think it is a bad thing to update symbols and to rethink how we view and remember historical figures. And the fact is that many campaigners on this have been met with deaf ears for a long time, creating frustration. They haven't been met with a serious attempt to sit down, listen and discuss. And just as I said that the mob shouldn't just dismiss people who want to keep the statues, it is also wrong to just dismiss the campaigners (and I think there is a difference between these people and the mob, some overlap, sure, but still a difference) who wanted change, I don't think this can be ignored as a factor in the forming and activation of the mob.

    If people had a vote in an area about whether to keep a statue, whether to replace one etc, and it was decided that actually they should go, I would have no problem with that. If both sides get the chance to communicate their position, and people are willing to honestly listen to each side, that would be a fair outcome, it wouldn't please everyone, but it isn't mob "justice", we shouldn't do things, or allow things to happen just to appease a mob, no matter how noble the cause, at the same time I think when mobs form, it is important to ask why, look at their grievances and start taking them more seriously, not as an act of fear, but as acknowledgement that there is an issue, a concern being raised that clearly has been ignored, maybe out of humility, it should be listened to. Sadly this hasn't happened, and things are so emotionally charged I can't see this happening.
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