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  1. #881
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tromage2 View Post
    Why dont they start destroying the biggest slavery monument: the piramides.
    If you were so inclined... how would you start destroying the pyramids?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ranzino View Post
    pyramid building was hard labour, no question. but it was employment during flood period and paid well.
    Can you imagine the episode of ancient aliens, about protestors destroying the pyramids? They simply don’t have the technology otherwise... lol
    As above, so below.
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  2. #882
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tromage2 View Post
    Why dont they start destroying the biggest slavery monument: the piramides.
    Who are they?
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  3. #883
    If you prefer a symbolic victory to tangible one...

    ...then you shall have it.

  4. #884
    The Undying Themius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tromage2 View Post
    Why dont they start destroying the biggest slavery monument: the piramides.

    Anyways why would a statue piss you off anyways, nobody around in the western world has been a slave in their lifetime so why would you get upset. I am living in the Netherlands where we still have a king, any my grand parents might have been servants to this family but i am not upset when i see him of his family around so whats the deal.
    Don't spread biblical lies, also:


  5. #885
    The Unstoppable Force Ghostpanther's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chelly View Post
    The pyramids weren't built by slaves.
    Not entirely by slaves, that is true. But we do not know if some may have been slaves. We do know however, that slavery existed in Egypt during that time period. And the odds are pretty strong, that the Coliseum in Rome, slaves had some impact on it being built, as slavery was very common. Why wouldn't you use some free labor?
    " If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher.." - Abraham Lincoln
    The Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to - prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms..” - Samuel Adams

  6. #886
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostpanther View Post
    Not entirely by slaves, that is true. But we do not know if some may have been slaves. We do know however, that slavery existed in Egypt during that time period. And the odds are pretty strong, that the Coliseum in Rome, slaves had some impact on it being built, as slavery was very common. Why wouldn't you use some free labor?
    I agree that it's likely that some labor were used, especially for quarrying the stones (which historically has been a slave-intensive work).

    However, to answer the question of 'why not': one could imagine that slaves weren't good enough for the pharaoh for some religious reasons (or just that slaves weren't good workers) - but exactly what is meant with slavery in ancient Egypt is also a bit unclear, as their concepts seemed to differ a bit.

  7. #887
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    If you were so inclined... how would you start destroying the pyramidsl
    I think a person who has the intelligence to compare the pyramids of Egypt to the same level as racist statues doesn't have the ability to answer that question.

  8. #888
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostpanther View Post
    Not entirely by slaves, that is true. But we do not know if some may have been slaves. We do know however, that slavery existed in Egypt during that time period. And the odds are pretty strong, that the Coliseum in Rome, slaves had some impact on it being built, as slavery was very common. Why wouldn't you use some free labor?
    Yeah, no. All of Egypts pyramids were built during the Old and early Middle Kingdoms with the last structures tapering off towards the end of the Middle Kingdom. Slavery was not a practice in Egypt until the New Kingdom and is suspected to have been imported by the Hyksos during the Second Intermediate Period. Pyramid builders were seasonal temp workers and fairly well paid ones at that if the archaelogical evidence is anything to go buy (i.e. being fed with beef).
    Last edited by Elegiac; 2020-07-15 at 11:55 PM.
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  9. #889
    The Unstoppable Force Ghostpanther's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    I agree that it's likely that some labor were used, especially for quarrying the stones (which historically has been a slave-intensive work).

    However, to answer the question of 'why not': one could imagine that slaves weren't good enough for the pharaoh for some religious reasons (or just that slaves weren't good workers) - but exactly what is meant with slavery in ancient Egypt is also a bit unclear, as their concepts seemed to differ a bit.
    Well, the Romans used slaves and prisoners ( not much different than slaves ) in the arena's for entertainment. I can easily see them using slaves without any feelings for their lives. Then again, some slave owners did treat their slaves well and a Gladiator, could even win their freedom in the arenas if they were a slave. Not all where.

    I guess my point is, why tear down a statue of a person or a monument, yet not the Coliseum? I do not think they should of course, but I do sense some hypocrisy in action.
    " If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher.." - Abraham Lincoln
    The Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to - prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms..” - Samuel Adams

  10. #890
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostpanther View Post
    Well, the Romans used slaves and prisoners ( not much different than slaves ) in the arena's for entertainment. I can easily see them using slaves without any feelings for their lives. Then again, some slave owners did treat their slaves well and a Gladiator, could even win their freedom in the arenas if they were a slave. Not all where.

    I guess my point is, why tear down a statue of a person or a monument, yet not the Coliseum? I do not think they should of course, but I do sense some hypocrisy in action.
    1) The Coliseum is, at the end of the day, a piece of public infrastructure and not a monument. What you should be asking for here, logically speaking, is a memorial to be set up for the people who died there.

    2) It is not practical to remove the Coliseum from public view without destroying it. The entire reason monuments are getting destroyed was due to resistance to them being rehoused boiling over into people just deciding to get rid of the fucking things by any means.

    3) The Coliseum no longer has any connection to a system of oppression and exploitation because the peoples, cultures, and polities that built it have long since transmuted into unrecognizability. The same can't be true of statues commemorating colonial figures.
    "Multiculturalism has failed!" angrily types a person of European descent living in the Americas in a Germanic language using Roman characters on a device coded with Arabic numerals before leaving in a huff to go watch cartoons made in Japan.

  11. #891
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostpanther View Post
    Well, the Romans used slaves and prisoners ( not much different than slaves ) in the arena's for entertainment. I can easily see them using slaves without any feelings for their lives.
    Yes, I agree and the problem is that we know so little of those times and we have gone from "built by slaves" to "built without any slaves" with little evidence - since it fits a narrative.

    I just explained why slaves might not have been used, but it's also possible that slaves were also used (especially in quarrying). We simply don't know. And regardless of whether there were slaves the pyramids were a gigantic ego-trip without any real benefit for most of the population.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    1) The Coliseum is, at the end of the day, a piece of public infrastructure and not a monument. What you should be asking for here, logically speaking, is a memorial to be set up for the people who died there.
    Technically "the coliseum" is a nick-name based on the gigantic monument of Nero that stood in front of it. So, one can argue that it was already torn down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    3) The Coliseum no longer has any connection to a system of oppression and exploitation because the peoples, cultures, and polities that built it have long since transmuted into unrecognizability. The same can't be true of statues commemorating colonial figures.
    That society has transmuted can also be said of many of the European status discussed in this thread.
    Obviously it's different in the US with statues of civil war generals raised in the early 1900s.

    Or one can attempt to Godwin this thread and say that the Coliseum was built by the spoils of the war that later led to the Jewish diaspora, and we can thus trace a line from the funding of the Coliseum to the holocaust. Is that what you want to commemorate?
    Last edited by Forogil; 2020-07-16 at 06:27 AM.

  12. #892
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    Is that what you want to commemorate?
    That’s kind of the thing, it seems like tearing down these statues, is teaching people history of those statues, better than them standing there for decades. Look at your post and a large portion of posts on this thread, explaining significance of these monuments. If they were helpful in maintaining or remembering or even learning history, these posts wouldn’t exist.

    In noting this... to answer the actual question on what to commemorate... It’s eye of the beholder...
    As above, so below.
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    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above corresponds to that which is Below, to accomplish the miracle of the One Thing.

  13. #893
    The Unstoppable Force Ghostpanther's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    Yes, I agree and the problem is that we know so little of those times and we have gone from "built by slaves" to "built without any slaves" with little evidence - since it fits a narrative.

    I just explained why slaves might not have been used, but it's also possible that slaves were also used (especially in quarrying). We simply don't know. And regardless of whether there were slaves the pyramids were a gigantic ego-trip without any real benefit for most of the population.

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    We do know the Coliseum was used to hold events which involved slaves, from the historical records we have from the Romans themselves. And the pyramids held religious significance. They where not just randomly placed where ever. They also viewed the Pharaohs as a living god in some cases.

    Not disagreeing with your overall points however. And there are certainly a lot of things we do not know for sure about history.
    " If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher.." - Abraham Lincoln
    The Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to - prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms..” - Samuel Adams

  14. #894
    Banned Yadryonych's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    When Virginia became confederate states they became a foreign opposition.

    Is this rocket science?
    Virginia became foreign opposition to Virginia? We'll probably need a rocket scientist to explain this indeed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    He fought against America... wtf?
    He fought for Virginia, is praised in Virginia. No contradiction, see?

  15. #895
    The Undying Themius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    Virginia became foreign opposition to Virginia? We'll probably need a rocket scientist to explain this indeed.

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    He fought for Virginia, is praised in Virginia. No contradiction, see?
    To America... virginia today is in America.

  16. #896
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    That’s kind of the thing, it seems like tearing down these statues, is teaching people history of those statues, better than them standing there for decades. Look at your post and a large portion of posts on this thread, explaining significance of these monuments. If they were helpful in maintaining or remembering or even learning history, these posts wouldn’t exist.
    The existence of ignorance doesn't show that the statues are totally useless.

    However, the worrying sign is that the significance is connected to the discussion of the action, if the statues are in fact torn down it seems likely that people will soon be even more ignorant than if the statues stood there.

  17. #897
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostpanther View Post
    We do know the Coliseum was used to hold events which involved slaves, from the historical records we have from the Romans themselves. And the pyramids held religious significance. They where not just randomly placed where ever. They also viewed the Pharaohs as a living god in some cases.

    Not disagreeing with your overall points however. And there are certainly a lot of things we do not know for sure about history.
    But do you know what we actually do know about history? That Confederate statues were erected for the sole purpose of re-writing history to make the CSA and its defenders look better than they were. And they're not the only statues erected to perpetuate lies.

  18. #898
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    The existence of ignorance doesn't show that the statues are totally useless.
    Totally useless and useless in teaching history, are two different things... Imagine how many paper weights a single statue can result in. I’m sure there are even better uses...

    However, the worrying sign is that the significance is connected to the discussion of the action, if the statues are in fact torn down it seems likely that people will soon be even more ignorant than if the statues stood there.
    If the significance is connected to the discussion of them being torn down, the way to actually have these teach history, is by tearing them down and building them up, in a perpetual cycle... well... until just like these statues the actual event will blend into the background.

    I’m sorry, when you have people believing that confederates are heroes defending the union, because they are immortalized in statues. It does the opposite of teaching history... the same ones who built these monuments, are the ones arguing that civil war had nothing to do with slavery. It’s idol worship... and who decides on the idol? The rich confederates that refused to be seen like the bad guys?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    But do you know what we actually do know about history? That Confederate statues were erected for the sole purpose of re-writing history to make the CSA and its defenders look better than they were. And they're not the only statues erected to perpetuate lies.
    It’s the same reason Lenin statues were erected in Russia, than promptly destroyed in every state gaining independence.
    As above, so below.
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above corresponds to that which is Below, to accomplish the miracle of the One Thing.

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