Tearing down historical statues the European edition

[Felya]

But I have the blinders. Me and the 120 million people with coronavirus.

Uhm... Yes, blinders... You complain that Biden misspoke million, instead of thousand... while Trump is held a super spreader event just last week. When Trump calls it a hoax, did he misspeak and meant to say tragedy? You know why Trump just polled 1% lower than Biden in Texas? Because people are sick of Trump’s insults and general bullshit... like complaining that Biden said million, instead of thousand... the same day Trump is forced to release children he is holding in cages, because Kung Flu is running rampant.

FYI, when Trump calls corona the Kung Flu, he isn’t misspeaking a million, when he means thousand. China didn’t force Trump to go on national television and ponder injecting disinfectant. It’s why Biden has already signed up for the 3 scheduled debates, while Trump’s campaign is refusing to sign, while desperately trying to get moderators of their choosing. This is while Trump, is bitching about Biden avoiding debates... even though Trump is the only one refusing to sign up for the debates, until they change to fit Trump.

[DKjaigen]

Uhm... Yes, blinders... You complain that Biden misspoke million, instead of thousand... while Trump is held a super spreader event just last week. When Trump calls it a hoax, did he misspeak and meant to say tragedy? You know why Trump just polled 1% lower than Biden in Texas? Because people are sick of Trump’s insults and general bullshit... like complaining that Biden said million, instead of thousand... the same day Trump is forced to release children he is holding in cages, because Kung Flu is running rampant.

FYI, when Trump calls corona the Kung Flu, he isn’t misspeaking a million, when he means thousand. China didn’t force Trump to go on national television and ponder injecting disinfectant. It’s why Biden has already signed up for the 3 scheduled debates, while Trump’s campaign is refusing to sign, while desperately trying to get moderators of their choosing. This is while Trump, is bitching about Biden avoiding debates... even though Trump is the only one refusing to sign up for the debates, until they change to fit Trump.

Are you seriously believing those lies that are well and readily debunked.

[Felya]

Are you seriously believing those lies that are well and readily debunked.

If you are interested in debunking what I said, with what I am sure is an imaginative adventure in ‘what he really meant’ and ‘what about’, I’ve moved it here:

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ssion/page2519

Going way off topic as it is...

[tehealadin]

It's real easy to just sit there on your computer and complain about heroes in the past that weren't perfect or made mistakes while ignoring the great achievements and strides they made for humandkind.

You could flip that and say it is easy to argue about heroes in the past being perfect, or made great achievements whilst ignoring/dismissing the horrible things they have done. I mean, I take your point, most historical figures if judged by today's standards would be considered a vile bigot on at least one issue, when you people teaching you your ABC's are also filling your head with bigoted nonsense, it shouldn't be a surprise that the person has questionable views on things. And I agree that this doesn't mean we should ignore any good or great deeds that they accomplished. I don't however think it precludes looking at their attitudes, especially when some are rather out there, and especially when they are accompanied by deeds that cost millions of lives.

I think this is more nuanced than people want it to be, and emotions are running high on either side. I think even monsters should have any good, or great deeds remembered, and even saints should have their flaws shown. One side is too focused on the flaws, and can't understand why people would want to memorialise them, the other side is too focused on the "great deeds", and can't understand why people want to look at the flaws and remember them in a different way/forget them altogether.

Now I don't support the removal of the statues in the way that it has been done. I do think you can have a statue of someone who has done some great deed, even if they did terrible things. It isn't that the symbols are coming down, so much as how it is done. I don't like mob rule. The fact is that many people want the statues to remain, that simply cannot be ignored and overruled by a mob. As we have seen, it just creates a counter mob. People might not like the reasons people have for wanting a statue to remain, but when you decide their feelings and views don't matter as they don't align with yours, I don't like the territory that ventures into. Heck, here in Scotland, a statue to Robert Bruce was vandalised for being racist, despite him being dead for several centuries before the forming of the British Empire, and whatever the historical misconceptions, is a symbol in Scotland against oppression. When certain action is shown to be acceptable, despite there not being a clear consensus that it is, it can draw out morons who want to join in with the chaos/get caught up in the rush.

The flip is also worth talking about. I think for too long people have ignored calls for debate and discussion on removing/changing statues. Just as I think the people who want to keep them should be heard and not automatically dismissed, it is also true for the ones that want them gone. I personally do not have a problem with wanting to change/remove statues, many of them I actually support, I don't think it is a bad thing to update symbols and to rethink how we view and remember historical figures. And the fact is that many campaigners on this have been met with deaf ears for a long time, creating frustration. They haven't been met with a serious attempt to sit down, listen and discuss. And just as I said that the mob shouldn't just dismiss people who want to keep the statues, it is also wrong to just dismiss the campaigners (and I think there is a difference between these people and the mob, some overlap, sure, but still a difference) who wanted change, I don't think this can be ignored as a factor in the forming and activation of the mob.

If people had a vote in an area about whether to keep a statue, whether to replace one etc, and it was decided that actually they should go, I would have no problem with that. If both sides get the chance to communicate their position, and people are willing to honestly listen to each side, that would be a fair outcome, it wouldn't please everyone, but it isn't mob "justice", we shouldn't do things, or allow things to happen just to appease a mob, no matter how noble the cause, at the same time I think when mobs form, it is important to ask why, look at their grievances and start taking them more seriously, not as an act of fear, but as acknowledgement that there is an issue, a concern being raised that clearly has been ignored, maybe out of humility, it should be listened to. Sadly this hasn't happened, and things are so emotionally charged I can't see this happening.

[Grapemask]

Abraham Lincoln died while ending slavery he could have not done anything more because he was assasinated before the reconstruction.

They are still dumb

I posted flippantly the other day that we may get to a point that we reject Abraham Lincoln. I doubt we're there now, because I doubt this will actually succeed, but it's a good thing that we're thinking about these things. It's a sign of growth. Lincoln may have ended slavery, and he may have been a pretty decent president, but that doesn't mean that there aren't dozens of asterisks. We should always want our culture to reflect the best of us, so if we think there's someone better than Lincoln, why not move forward?

It's weird to me that we'll happily accept technological advancement, but our culture has to remain firmly rooted in the past. We'll throw away the pen and paper as soon as the computer comes along, but replacing old statues with slightly less racist statues is the end of the world.

[Yadryonych]

Abraham Lincoln? Pfft…

Is anyone up for some actual Nazi scientist responsible for war crimes statue toppling?

[Grapemask]

Abraham Lincoln? Pfft…

Is anyone up for some actual Nazi scientist responsible for war crimes statue toppling?

I'm pretty sure plenty of people in today's climate would want to have a von Braun statue removed. That they haven't gotten to it would probably indicate they don't know about it.

[josykay]

Abraham Lincoln? Pfft…

Is anyone up for some actual Nazi scientist responsible for war crimes statue toppling?

Yes... Von Braun should be toppled. At worst Nazi killing thousands. Escaping justice because his research is "special". At best giant dick, who is willing to go over corpses building his toys... which are then used to kill people.
Escaped justice, because his research, also killing people, helps in a dick meassuring contest.

[Felya]

Yes... Von Braun should be toppled. At worst Nazi killing thousands. Escaping justice because his research is "special". At best giant dick, who is willing to go over corpses building his toys... which are then used to kill people.
Escaped justice, becausd his research, killing people helps a dick meassuring contest.

Is it ironic to have people defending statues, provide examples of other statues that need to be destroyed? Seems like a strange argument...

[Yadryonych]

Is it ironic to have people defending statues, provide examples of other statues that need to be destroyed? Seems like a strange argument...

Just helping fellow iconoclasts over there I mean the more you maraud and pillage your own leaders and heroes the funnier it is for the rest of us. Way to go for the deconstruction of the US illegally built on Indians' lands though

p.s. It may be too late, there's already an executive order forbidding that https://www.whitehouse.gov/president...inal-violence/

[cubby]

Intelligent discourse? You guys complain and get me banned and the moderators tell me to complain about you specifically and report YOU. But I am not coward like your censoring friends. You want inner circle discourse. You want people to agree with you, you could care less what anyone else thinks, that is why you disagree with anyone who is not voting Biden. You get mad at people who do not like Biden so won't vote for him and say it's a vote for Trump, even though they are not voting Trump. You obviously do not want people to use their freedom unless it matches your choice. So do not give me any of your intelligent discourse. Nobody on here is ranting mad about U.S. Grant or Stevie Ray Vaughn being torn down. Because they are not on your agenda. I am sorry that you have to include your "my view or no view" agenda aka blue no matter what in to every conversation. But I have the blinders. Me and the 120 million people with coronavirus.

Unfortunately, but as usual, you continue to misunderstand. It's never been "my view or no view" - I accept most points of view and try to learn from each interaction. Even with you, on the poll issue (make-up of poll participants defines the veracity of the poll was your opinion, and I listened), I listened and learned.

What you fail to understand, over and over again, is that we require evidence and facts to back up statements, and it's one area you continually fail to deliver. You have opinions and ideas, and you search out sources that agree with those, rather than the other way around. Even now, reading this, you'll deny that's how you operate - but our evaluation of you is entirely accurate. You ignore bad sources, you don't multi-source information, and you ignore literal facts when presented with conflicting data.

You obviously have intelligence, but you use it so ineffectually, and it honestly baffles me. Twice during this year (that I can recall) you've presented positions that are solid and have merit. What baffle [at least] me is that you don't use that in everything you do.

And you are incapable of admitting you are wrong. Which is the hallmark of an ineffectual intellect, lacking the ability to self-analyze and reevaluate situations and information.

Several times just this month I've been wrong - dead wrong. And I'm [not] happy to admit it, because intellectual honesty helps everyone. It helps the people you're discussing with because they see they are being heard. It helps the individual because it serves as a self-check on opinions and points of view. And it helps the community because the active members can see that others are listening and learning.

Every poster you lash out at (the top posters in these particular forums), every one of them, has been wrong - and admitted it. And it's documented, here. So you claiming that all we want to do is hear "[our] view or no view" is again another one of your "misstatements". And we'll call you out on them every time. If you don't like being called out, rethink how you digest information.

- - - Updated - - -

Is it ironic to have people defending statues, provide examples of other statues that need to be destroyed? Seems like a strange argument...

Interestingly, it's the same people pointing to Biden's faults, just like Trumps.

[Xarkan]

Is it ironic to have people defending statues, provide examples of other statues that need to be destroyed? Seems like a strange argument...

I am not sure his statue should be toppled but obviously if you want to tear down Churchill you should consider the same for Von Braun (either the man or the crater, i am not particular)

[Yadryonych]

I am not sure his statue should be toppled but obviously if you want to tear down Churchill you should consider the same for Von Braun (either the man or the crater, i am not particular)

Indeed this is outrageous. Toppling George Washington statue while not burning down a large city named after him. What a shamefully half-hearted attempt

[Shadowferal]

Maybe they should hit the Washington Monument.

[Elegiac]

Maybe they should hit the Washington Monument.

Excuse you that has since been rebranded as the Obelisk of Wokeness.

[GreenJesus]

Uhm... Yes, blinders... You complain that Biden misspoke million, instead of thousand... while Trump is held a super spreader event just last week. When Trump calls it a hoax, did he misspeak and meant to say tragedy? You know why Trump just polled 1% lower than Biden in Texas? Because people are sick of Trump’s insults and general bullshit... like complaining that Biden said million, instead of thousand... the same day Trump is forced to release children he is holding in cages, because Kung Flu is running rampant.

FYI, when Trump calls corona the Kung Flu, he isn’t misspeaking a million, when he means thousand. China didn’t force Trump to go on national television and ponder injecting disinfectant. It’s why Biden has already signed up for the 3 scheduled debates, while Trump’s campaign is refusing to sign, while desperately trying to get moderators of their choosing. This is while Trump, is bitching about Biden avoiding debates... even though Trump is the only one refusing to sign up for the debates, until they change to fit Trump.

Why is the trump event a super spreader but the riots the Democrats cheered on weren't? Viruses dont care about politics or your cause.

[NineSpine]

Is the contention really that if Germany doesn’t build statues of Hitler they will somehow forget about WWII?

- - - Updated - - -

Why is the trump event a super spreader but the riots the Democrats cheered on weren't? Viruses dont care about politics or your cause.

They care if you are inside, crammed next to each other, and not wearing masks, both of which are huge risk factors.

[Elegiac]

Why is the trump event a super spreader but the riots the Democrats cheered on weren't? Viruses dont care about politics or your cause.

Man it's almost as if believing in science gives you the magical ability to take proper precautions rather than packing people together in an indoor event and discouraging mask use.

[GreenJesus]

Man it's almost as if believing in science gives you the magical ability to take proper precautions rather than packing people together in an indoor event and discouraging mask use.

Lol do you honestly believe all those rioters were taking "proper precautions" while they were burning down buildings and throwing bricks at police?

[Elegiac]

Lol do you honestly believe all those rioters were taking "proper precautions" while they were burning down buildings and throwing bricks at police?

I mean they were wearing masks, gloves, and were generally staying outdoors so...insofar as 'proper' exists in this country, yes.

The police are the ones who aren't wearing masks and are using respiratory irritants on peaceful protesters, maybe you should complain about them.