Hunters in Shadowlands

[Kaver]

So people who do both PvP and PvE as hunters have to have 2 sets of gears and 2 sets of keybinds learned because... reasons.

To be fair, this is an "issue" for a lot of classes. At least Hunters can play all PVE content as BM and do both crazy AOE and single target damage with the same gear set and talents. Other classes need to play different specs with multiple different gear sets just for PVE content. Personally I think melee survival is fun, but I do agree it should go back to ranged because of the expectations people have to the hunter class as you mention.

[trapmaster]

To be fair, this is an "issue" for a lot of classes. At least Hunters can play all PVE content as BM and do both crazy AOE and single target damage with the same gear set and talents. Other classes need to play different specs with multiple different gear sets just for PVE content. Personally I think melee survival is fun, but I do agree it should go back to ranged because of the expectations people have to the hunter class as you mention.

Ranged survival was great, but somehow blizzard's decision was a moronic move to change it to melee. Sure it has niche for pvp but PVE... Lol get the fuck out of here unless blizzard give us couple or several utility.

[Nynax]

Ranged survival was great, but somehow blizzard's decision was a moronic move to change it to melee. Sure it has niche for pvp but PVE... Lol get the fuck out of here unless blizzard give us couple or several utility.

Well, don't forget that the Surv change was when they were focused on Spec identity and sweeping thematic changes for everyone. Survival had been kinda weird since cata in that it was really just the "DOT Marksman" spec. They could have just given it a different name and left it at that, but decided to try something unique instead.

[Eapoe]

Ranged survival was great, but somehow blizzard's decision was a moronic move to change it to melee. Sure it has niche for pvp but PVE... Lol get the fuck out of here unless blizzard give us couple or several utility.

In all honesty, it brings the same utility as a Mage with lust and a personal immunity. Hell, Rogues don’t even really bring anything but damage and a personal immunity with some decent self sustain. They’re more valuable in m+ with mass stealth and lock picking than a raid. SV really just needs a big damage buff to compete with other melee. I don’t think the small buffs to it’s damage are going to be enough.

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Well, don't forget that the Surv change was when they were focused on Spec identity and sweeping thematic changes for everyone. Survival had been kinda weird since cata in that it was really just the "DOT Marksman" spec. They could have just given it a different name and left it at that, but decided to try something unique instead.

People always say SV was a dot spec, but I don’t really know if I’d classify it as that. In a strict sense then maybe, but it’s only a dot spec in the sense that Arms Warriors were a dot spec with Rend applying to multiple targets. Or Assassin/Sub Rogues applying poisons.
Most people think dot specs they think Spriest or Locks, multiple DoT effects that can be applied to many targets w/o penalty that contribute massive damage to their overall total. If a SV Hunter tried applying SS to multiple spread out targets their damage would actually go down overall.

[KrayZ33]

People always say SV was a dot spec, but I don’t really know if I’d classify it as that. In a strict sense then maybe, but it’s only a dot spec in the sense that Arms Warriors were a dot spec with Rend applying to multiple targets. Or Assassin/Sub Rogues applying poisons.
Most people think dot specs they think Spriest or Locks, multiple DoT effects that can be applied to many targets w/o penalty that contribute massive damage to their overall total. If a SV Hunter tried applying SS to multiple spread out targets their damage would actually go down overall.

Which version of SV Hunter are you talking about. Melee SV? Because I'm pretty sure the guy who quoted was talking about <=WoD-SV.

Multi target fights were certainly beneficial to SV back in WoD.

[Eapoe]

Which version of SV Hunter are you talking about. Melee SV? Because I'm pretty sure the guy who quoted was talking about <=WoD-SV.

Multi target fights were certainly beneficial to SV back in WoD.

In AoE range sure, but fights with spread cleave you would go energy starved trying to dot everything up with SS, or AS when that applied it, and not even be able to apply it to everything before you did. SS/AS duration was so low, while the cost was so high, you aren’t even able to apply it to everything before you became focus starved. That’s just SS. Include your actual hard hitting BA and ES and forget about trying to keep dots up like a Spriest, Lock, or even a Druid.
As stated, it’s considered a dot spec in the same way that you could consider a Rogue applying poisons or a Warrior’s bleeds. Range SV is basically the same as melee SV in terms of dot potential with having Serpent Spread and Wildfire Bombs. Keep in mind, I’m discussing spread mobs, not clustered up. Again, clustered up gives the same benefit as any other spec that benefits from grouped up mobs, such as BM, Warrior, DH, etc.

[kappalol]

I dont want to play BM 3rd expansion in row. Except like 1-2 patches.

I give high hopes into Venthyr MM. those kill shot and aimed synergy sounds interesting.

[iosdeveloper]

what's so hard giving Survival 5% crit raid buff or something like this

[paragraphgorilla]

what's so hard giving Survival 5% crit raid buff or something like this

what's so hard about giving hunter pets buffs again

[Exorzon]

I dont want to play BM 3rd expansion in row. Except like 1-2 patches.

I give high hopes into Venthyr MM. those kill shot and aimed synergy sounds interesting.

That's exactly what I'm feeling right now and I hope the Venthyr MM plays out great, well as great as it can considering we still have Rapid Fire which I've never been a big fan of

[KrayZ33]

In AoE range sure, but fights with spread cleave you would go energy starved trying to dot everything up with SS, or AS when that applied it, and not even be able to apply it to everything before you did. SS/AS duration was so low, while the cost was so high, you aren’t even able to apply it to everything before you became focus starved. That’s just SS. Include your actual hard hitting BA and ES and forget about trying to keep dots up like a Spriest, Lock, or even a Druid.
As stated, it’s considered a dot spec in the same way that you could consider a Rogue applying poisons or a Warrior’s bleeds. Range SV is basically the same as melee SV in terms of dot potential with having Serpent Spread and Wildfire Bombs. Keep in mind, I’m discussing spread mobs, not clustered up. Again, clustered up gives the same benefit as any other spec that benefits from grouped up mobs, such as BM, Warrior, DH, etc.

?

I don't quite understand. As long as targets are alive for the full duration, you'd certainly AS every single one of them, no matter how far they are away. You had more than enough Focus for AS without losing any ES or BA.
You are talking about 2-6 enemies at most anyway when you are talking about spread out targets. If you couldn't use multishot to apply it, you'd use AS for every one of them. A melee might not want to move between enemies like that.

A dot class will deal a significant amount of damage to multiple targets who are spread out in a room, the same is true for old SV and you had the range to reach the whole boss room most of the time. Melees usually don't.

[Kehego]

In AoE range sure, but fights with spread cleave you would go energy starved trying to dot everything up with SS, or AS when that applied it, and not even be able to apply it to everything before you did. SS/AS duration was so low, while the cost was so high, you aren’t even able to apply it to everything before you became focus starved. That’s just SS. Include your actual hard hitting BA and ES and forget about trying to keep dots up like a Spriest, Lock, or even a Druid.
As stated, it’s considered a dot spec in the same way that you could consider a Rogue applying poisons or a Warrior’s bleeds. Range SV is basically the same as melee SV in terms of dot potential with having Serpent Spread and Wildfire Bombs. Keep in mind, I’m discussing spread mobs, not clustered up. Again, clustered up gives the same benefit as any other spec that benefits from grouped up mobs, such as BM, Warrior, DH, etc.

It would just become one of those "bring the boss close enough so i can sweeping strikes" type deals.

Plus again, if you're talking about WoD SV you always had a lot of free thrill procs to reapply

[Eapoe]

?

I don't quite understand. As long as targets are alive for the full duration, you'd certainly AS every single one of them, no matter how far they are away. You had more than enough Focus for AS without losing any ES or BA.
You are talking about 2-6 enemies at most anyway when you are talking about spread out targets. If you couldn't use multishot to apply it, you'd use AS for every one of them. A melee might not want to move between enemies like that.

A dot class will deal a significant amount of damage to multiple targets who are spread out in a room, the same is true for old SV and you had the range to reach the whole boss room most of the time. Melees usually don't.

This shouldn’t need to be explained. 2 scenarios happen:
(A) you apply to primary target ES, BA, AS, you then swap to another target and apply SS. At that point, you’re out of focus. You then need to use 1-2 CS to apply to a new target, to which you are out of focus again. You then need to reapply ES, and at this point maybe get 1 more AS on a new target. Then, you need to reapply to your primary target when the duration has worn off. You don’t have enough focus/time to spread SS to every mob and maintain full uptime once you reach a small target cap.
(B) You use focus to AS mobs around the room, which then leads into not having enough focus without having to build it back up, which means you then ignore applying BA and ES to mobs.
Neither scenario benefits overall damage and doesn’t work for a dot spec.

So, to summarize, SV Hunters has dots, yes. However, it has dots in the same way as a Rogue or Warrior has dots. It is not a dot spec in the vein of Warlocks or Spriests that can maintain dots on a decent amount of multiple targets without hurting its damage. If you’re going to argue that old SV could apply dots this way then you need to concede that new SV can do that just as well since their dot ability is a ranged one. That’s actually one thing that hasn’t changed, and as stated, new SV does kind of better, in that it also has range dots thru Viper Venom and Wildfire bombs, and even causes a bleed with some talents.

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It would just become one of those "bring the boss close enough so i can sweeping strikes" type deals.

Plus again, if you're talking about WoD SV you always had a lot of free thrill procs to reapply

In a perfect world you are correct, but not every boss can be moved whenever a Hunter needs to reapply it, let alone be moved at all in some cases.

[KrayZ33]

This shouldn’t need to be explained. 2 scenarios happen:
(A) you apply to primary target ES, BA, AS, you then swap to another target and apply SS. At that point, you’re out of focus. You then need to use 1-2 CS to apply to a new target, to which you are out of focus again. You then need to reapply ES, and at this point maybe get 1 more AS on a new target. Then, you need to reapply to your primary target when the duration has worn off. You don’t have enough focus/time to spread SS to every mob and maintain full uptime once you reach a small target cap.
(B) You use focus to AS mobs around the room, which then leads into not having enough focus without having to build it back up, which means you then ignore applying BA and ES to mobs.
Neither scenario benefits overall damage and doesn’t work for a dot spec.

So, to summarize, SV Hunters has dots, yes. However, it has dots in the same way as a Rogue or Warrior has dots. It is not a dot spec in the vein of Warlocks or Spriests that can maintain dots on a decent amount of multiple targets without hurting its damage. If you’re going to argue that old SV could apply dots this way then you need to concede that new SV can do that just as well since their dot ability is a ranged one. That’s actually one thing that hasn’t changed, and as stated, new SV does kind of better, in that it also has range dots thru Viper Venom and Wildfire bombs, and even causes a bleed with some talents.

.

I just checked my logs from back then.
You were able to apply 1 AS roughly every 3 seconds without losing BA/ES - the dot did last for... 15 seconds?
Where exactly is the problem with maintaining it on content-relevant multiple targets easily?
WoD Survival did gain damage and never lost any whenever more than 1 target was available, even if they were spread out.

All of your skills did deal damage over time, or did apply a dot in WoD except for the focus builder.
Dunno, that's pretty much how playing a DoT class feels in WoW.
More targets = easy DPS gain, no matter where they are.
In contrast to melee or direct damage classes.
More targets = easy DPS gain, if they are right next to each other.

[Nynax]

In AoE range sure, but fights with spread cleave you would go energy starved trying to dot everything up with SS, or AS when that applied it, and not even be able to apply it to everything before you did. SS/AS duration was so low, while the cost was so high, you aren’t even able to apply it to everything before you became focus starved. That’s just SS. Include your actual hard hitting BA and ES and forget about trying to keep dots up like a Spriest, Lock, or even a Druid.
As stated, it’s considered a dot spec in the same way that you could consider a Rogue applying poisons or a Warrior’s bleeds. Range SV is basically the same as melee SV in terms of dot potential with having Serpent Spread and Wildfire Bombs. Keep in mind, I’m discussing spread mobs, not clustered up. Again, clustered up gives the same benefit as any other spec that benefits from grouped up mobs, such as BM, Warrior, DH, etc.

well tbh, I would consider Rogue Assassin to be a dot spec as well. Obviously Shadow and Affliction are THE dot specs, but my barrier to entry is more related to how your primary source of damage does its damage. The big difference between SV and MM damage back in the day iirc was SV relied much more on Serpent Sting, a dot, and Explosive Shot, an aoe dot (however short).

Clustered vs spread isn't really a defining factor. Feral Druids are 100% a dot spec, and they absolutely can't handle spread targets like Affliction can.

[Bisque]

what's so hard giving Survival 5% crit raid buff or something like this

Honestly I would like to see a "5% increased bleed and poison damage and/or increased chance of bleeds and poison to crit by 5%". A few other changes to but in terms of raid wide buff, that is what I would want to see.

In any case I have no idea what blizzard's plan with hunters and many classes in going into SL. Blizzard seems to be doing it haphazardly and piecemeal. I miss the legion beta days when you had a set date of when blizz would address "X" class. Now its just checking everyday and hoping blizzard does something for "X" class.

[Eldrathian]

Looks like MM will continue to be trash at PVP, and BM the go-to for everything.

This expansion is a filler, Blizzard didn't even bother to change the PVP balance from BFA.

Love to hear how you justify your statement "MM will be trash at PVP".

Ice Trap
Tar Trap
Binding Shot
Concussive Shot
Bursting Shot
Survival Instincts (stolen from druid) - no pet
Master's Call - with pet
Exhilaration
Aspect of the Turtle
Kill Shot (returned)

ALL BASELINE

On top of those, I can talent into:
Scatter Shot
Sniper's Shot (health percentage damage, and extends all ranged attacks to 60 yards)
Explosive Trap (2nd knock back)

[Eapoe]

well tbh, I would consider Rogue Assassin to be a dot spec as well. Obviously Shadow and Affliction are THE dot specs, but my barrier to entry is more related to how your primary source of damage does its damage. The big difference between SV and MM damage back in the day iirc was SV relied much more on Serpent Sting, a dot, and Explosive Shot, an aoe dot (however short).

Clustered vs spread isn't really a defining factor. Feral Druids are 100% a dot spec, and they absolutely can't handle spread targets like Affliction can.

Maybe you’d prefer dot spec vs multidot spec? I dunno. Technically BM is a dot spec since they have BS. If you look at it that way I’m pretty sure there are a lot more specs that would be “dot specs” in the same way people state SV is a dot spec. Just trying to go off top of my head:
Prot Warriors have bleeds. Pretty sure the other 2 specs do as well.
Ferals have bleeds. Guardians have bleeds. Balance has moon/sun. Resto has moonfires.
BM Hunter has BS. SV Hunter has WFB and VV.
Sin Rogues have poisons. Sub Rogues have poisons.
Destro Lock has a dot. Affliction has dots. Pretty sure Demo has one.
Spriests has dots. Disc and Holy have SW:P.
Ele Shamans have Flame Shock. Enhance has Flame Shock (pretty sure). Resto Shaman has Flame Shock.
Blood DKs have a dot. Unholy DKs have Festering Boil (think it’s called, can’t remember).
The only classes that don’t have dots as a main part of their damage are DH, Monk, and Paladin as far as I can remember.
How many of the ones I listed do people consider dot specs?

[Kehego]

This shouldn’t need to be explained. 2 scenarios happen:
(A) you apply to primary target ES, BA, AS, you then swap to another target and apply SS. At that point, you’re out of focus. You then need to use 1-2 CS to apply to a new target, to which you are out of focus again. You then need to reapply ES, and at this point maybe get 1 more AS on a new target. Then, you need to reapply to your primary target when the duration has worn off. You don’t have enough focus/time to spread SS to every mob and maintain full uptime once you reach a small target cap.
(B) You use focus to AS mobs around the room, which then leads into not having enough focus without having to build it back up, which means you then ignore applying BA and ES to mobs.
Neither scenario benefits overall damage and doesn’t work for a dot spec.

So, to summarize, SV Hunters has dots, yes. However, it has dots in the same way as a Rogue or Warrior has dots. It is not a dot spec in the vein of Warlocks or Spriests that can maintain dots on a decent amount of multiple targets without hurting its damage. If you’re going to argue that old SV could apply dots this way then you need to concede that new SV can do that just as well since their dot ability is a ranged one. That’s actually one thing that hasn’t changed, and as stated, new SV does kind of better, in that it also has range dots thru Viper Venom and Wildfire bombs, and even causes a bleed with some talents.

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In a perfect world you are correct, but not every boss can be moved whenever a Hunter needs to reapply it, let alone be moved at all in some cases.

as many people pointed out, serpent sting last 15 seconds. that's pretty normal as far as dot durations go tbh

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well tbh, I would consider Rogue Assassin to be a dot spec as well. Obviously Shadow and Affliction are THE dot specs, but my barrier to entry is more related to how your primary source of damage does its damage. The big difference between SV and MM damage back in the day iirc was SV relied much more on Serpent Sting, a dot, and Explosive Shot, an aoe dot (however short).

Clustered vs spread isn't really a defining factor. Feral Druids are 100% a dot spec, and they absolutely can't handle spread targets like Affliction can.

ferals haven't been a dot spec since wod
feral damage is all shred/FB now tbh

[Eapoe]

Love to hear how you justify your statement "MM will be trash at PVP".

Ice Trap
Tar Trap
Binding Shot
Concussive Shot
Bursting Shot
Survival Instincts (stolen from druid) - no pet
Master's Call - with pet
Exhilaration
Aspect of the Turtle
Kill Shot (returned)

ALL BASELINE

On top of those, I can talent into:
Scatter Shot
Sniper's Shot (health percentage damage, and extends all ranged attacks to 60 yards)
Explosive Trap (2nd knock back)

Most of those are so easily negated. Melee slow you just as much as you slow them, while most have better ways to catch a Hunter than a Hunter has a way to get away. Range don’t really worry about slows vs other range as they are standing still to cast anyways.
As far as tar trap and concussive shot, most melee have ways to suppress or close the distance despite that, and others even slow a Hunter more than a Hunter slows them. Add on that melee continue to beat on the Hunter while the Hunter has to find a way to stop moving to cast hard hitting AiS and Sniper Shot, as well as create a gap to not get beat on.
Add on that your Ice Trap, Scatter Shot, and Bursting Shot all add to diminishing returns, on top of what your teammate does, they won’t be usable all the time. Let alone others usually have longer and better stuns than those that you don’t want to override.
Master’s Call and Survival Instinct aren’t always available depending on the situation.
I’m not stating MM will be dead, or that I agree with the other person, I’m just stating these things don’t add up to being amazing at PvP. Most of them are minor aides at best in most situations.

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as many people pointed out, serpent sting last 15 seconds. that's pretty normal as far as dot durations go tbh

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ferals haven't been a dot spec since wod
feral damage is all shred/FB now tbh

Yes, 14 seconds is pretty normal, but most dot specs don’t lose those dots while having to build their resource to apply them.
As stated, Hunters lose focus to a point they can’t keep applying SS to everything w/o negating ES and BA. Using those 2 abilities also hinders applying dots. The bottom line is that Hunters didn’t have the focus capacity to be considered a spread multidot spec like some people try to hype up.
Also, look at my last post with all the other specs/classes that have dots like that people don’t consider dot specs to put it into more of a perspective.