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  1. #1
    WC3 Megathreader Lilithvia's Avatar
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    The Night Elves/borne discussion thread

    all the other elves have their own thread, so why not our favorite magic casting, purple skinned, Elune worshipping elves?

    Trick question, because here's the thread for discussion about them!

  2. #2
    I am into it!!

    I will start by saying I love the new customization options, and I am super glad we are getting some Highborne nods, and I love how the blind option can serve to make purple eyes ! I love editing pictures of my characters, and I just love this option! The new lilac hair color can fit so well with Highborne aesthetics, and yay upturned pointing ears! now I am very excited to create HB mog sets!




  3. #3
    The Patient Astranea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    yay upturned pointing ears!
    Is that a thing? The upturned ears for Night Elves? Don’t think I saw that one. Mostly shorter and damaged ears... plus a set of longer and somewhat floppier ones? Besides, I don’t think the wowhead dressing room has new ears yet.

    Anyhows. Here goes my own (photoshopped) Highborne.

    Really hope they add a matching jeweled headdress and earrings to that necklace.


  4. #4
    WC3 Megathreader Lilithvia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Astranea View Post
    Is that a thing? The upturned ears for Night Elves? Don’t think I saw that one. Mostly shorter and damaged ears... plus a set of longer and somewhat floppier ones? Besides, I don’t think the wowhead dressing room has new ears yet.

    Anyhows. Here goes my own (photoshopped) Highborne.

    Really hope they add a matching jeweled headdress and earrings to that necklace.

    They *should* be in the wowhead dressing room now

  5. #5
    For great info an Night elf background discusson on all affairs magical, purple and long eared I highly recommend:

    Night Elves, Magic & the Arcane - Common Misconceptions & Things You Didn't Consider


    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Lots of confusion and inconsistent perceptions of Night elves around, I thought produce a knowledgebase to help iron something out and challenge some mis-conceptions I have noticed held by players on this topic. This is the purpose of this topic.

    What the Devs Say About Night Elves
    Some seem to think blizzard don't know Night elves, or took the development of the Night elves in a wrong way. They never think to challenge or question whether how they viewed night elves or perceived them may have missed what blizzard intended. Night elves are enigmatic, they aren't straightforward to understand, this is intentional. However if you really like them, and have delved into all their lore (not cherry picked the ones you liked), you will find a lot of it makes sense, there isn't nearly as much inconsistency as you think.

    Firstly, let us look at what the developers intended for the Night elves. Here is a piece that stood out from another topic.

    The Non-Savage Arcane/Nature Duality Night Elf - The Night Elves are not JUST Forest Elves
    The devs have expressed the intention behind the night elves: One such interview is here
    https://web.archive.org/web/20010205...667651,00.html


    They were never the pure forest elf race some felt.
    Though I sometimes see people feeling the night elves are a savage race or a forest elf race, they can be forgiven because of the strong influence of druidism in the night elves, but while a significant part of the race, it doesn't dominate them and roughly comes to about 1/3 to 1/2 of their makeup. I gently remind them that it was not the intention or purpose, nor do we witness the portrayal of night elves as either primarily or entirely a savage race or a forest elf race. Worgen were the savage race, you don't call a savage race Elf - Elf is not what you use when you want to do savage. Nor are they primarily forest elves never intended that way (nor shown to only be forest based), they have a forest/dark elf duality.

    We have been told in lore shown the Night Elf race to be both arcane and nature prolific, the pre-sundering civilization, the Highborne, the Moonguard, the magic wielders, the priesthood of Elune - those are all part of the dark elf aspect of the night elves.. whether the civilization was destroyed yesterday or 10,000 years ago, the night elf remains the arcane affinity, arcane essence magical elf, with a natural racial disposition to the arcane and a great love of nature. We have been seen a lot more of the magical side of the priesthood of Elune recently in the game, and also far more arcane night elf activity in game in Cataclysm expansion and Legion expansion - not to mention 5 books (the War of the Ancients Trilogy, Wolfheart and Illidan) have much information and lore on non-forest elf druidic night elves. Contrary to what some believe, the Highborne part of the night elves is not created solely for the Thalassian elf, and is not to be considered as only there to be part of the Thalassian lore. No, it is fully a part of the night elf and its make up, a substantial half, it is from this half that the devs connect the night elf to the high elf, but that part is ALL night elf too. Both halves together represent all the night elves.
    Now the forest elf side of the night elves is represented mostly in the druids which the classic game's levelling experience dominates as well as in The sentinels and huntresses who see much more action in WC3. However it is incomplete and incorrect to ignore the lore material in the novels and the material that shows up in the game, including the highborn of 1.1, the Darnassian re-instated Highborne caste of 4.0, the Farondis, Moonguard and Nightborne of 7.0, and to ignore the Demon hunters no matter how small their numbers are, they are a significant part of the night elves and a core part of their make up.



    Night elves are magical, very magical - this is what the lore tells and shows us


    If you look a little closer, clearing your mind of bias or the focus on your favourite parts, you will see it so clearly.

    Pre-sundering
    Most of Night Elf written history focuses on the pre-sundering era, the most notable thing about the Night elves then was not as hunter/gatherers or savage feral combatants, but as prolific arcane users, who built an entire empire filled with magic, to an extraordinary level that is still coveted today by the magical societies of the world. The great account of the first invasion of the Legion and the sundering is full of the magic of the Night elves. Arcane magic was what most of them fought with, members of the Moonguard and the famous Palace Highborne Sunstriders who joined Tyrande. Illidan and Tyrande employ a lot of magic during their accounts, so does Malfurion, who performs many magical spells, both the newly learnt nature ones and previous arcane based spell work he knows.

    Post-Sundering
    After the sundering, the 3 main Night elf groups we know of are again most renowned for magic. In Northern Kalimdor, the Long Vigil group bans the practise of arcane magic, yet we know of them most for their great strides in nature magic, working in the emerald dream with magic, trying to heal he world, suppress arcane magic usage to prevent the Legions return, growing world trees, hiding Kalimdor in mists. The magical arcane Well of Eternity was the focus of that era for them, and while it wasn't used for arcane spell work, it's magical arcane energy was used to create Moonwells all over the land where priestly and druidic magic were employed to utilise that magical energy to boost the environment and its inhabitants. The Long Vigil ends in WC3, while Night elf units do shoot lots of arrows, most notable are the magic of the priesthood and druids employed - whether the arcane starfall or the nature tranquillity, summoning trees and animals to join the fight.

    Amongst the Night elf group in Eldre'thalas and Suramar - the same intensity of arcane magical use continued in one, while another group in Suramar city went even further ingesting pure arcane energy for food when their natural resources faced total depletion.

    Current Era - Post Long Vigil
    In the current era, after WC3, the most notable actions and activities of Night elves are magical. The druids grow a magical world tree (the largest by far, and the 4th such), you meet magical problems that require magical remedies full of magical creatures.
    You meet the Shen'dralar and it's all about magic in Dire Maul
    In 4.0, it is magic is the focus of the Night elves, the ban on arcane is lifted and the Highborne of Eldre'thalas join up with the Darnassians continuing the new developments, because their magical might is greatly needed.
    The druids you work with in Mount Hyjal and the lost ruined Night Elf sunken city of Vashj'ir are all dealing with, involving, using, protecting, protecting against, acting with and counteracting MAGIC.

    Bad Assumptions that Have Warped This Perception
    If you only focus on one aspect and talk about it the most, it will colour your overall impression if you are not careful. So to avoid that:

    1. Try not to think of the night elves as ONLY feral hunter-types, that is minor in comparison: magic has always played a larger role for them, whether it was the arcane intensive period of the pre-sundering, or the druidic achievements of the Long Vigil, or the priesthood of Elune and it's magical origin and purpose.
    2. Nature magic is also magic, although most references to magic are talking about the arcane, do not forget divine magic and nature magic are also magics
    3. Don't let the Long Vigil period (where the most famous Night elf group felt they had to ban the use of the arcane) blind you from perceiving that magic (yes arcane magic now) was still quite central to the Night elven group, even without using the arcane directly for spells. There were other Night elf groups who hadn't banned spell usage.

    Banning the use of the arcane for spells doesn't make a group less magical. It just makes them less practised with using that type of magic for spell work. indeed during the whole time of the long vigil, they were surrounded and suffused with the magic of the Well of Eternity and the Moonwells they bathed the lands they win with its power. they made good and responsible use of the magic they had, despite not using it directly to cast spells.

    Whether with arcane or nature magic, the Night elf race is heavily steeped in Magic


    Common Mis Conceptions From Players:
    1. WC3 presentation of the Night elves is NOT the main or only thing there is to the night elves or should be. - it really isn't and they weren't intended to only be or even mainly be the way you saw them there [as evidenced by WoW's presentation subsequent book releases of their past, and future development both in novels and in game]. WC3 focuses on 1 group of Night elves only (not all Night elves) and is a turning point in that most famous group of the race's existence where a way of life is about to end due to another destiny altering event. It is the 2nd such event for the race - made clear from the stat. It is a race introduced with a 15,000 year back history, and it's 2nd major pivotal moment. The first saw the end of the Night elf empire and what is referred to as the pre-sundering era. Wc3 shows you the end of the event that marked the end Long Vigil era.

    Tell me, if Night elves had been introduced as their Nightborne sub-race in Legion was, with the 1st invasion of the Legion, would you be thinking night elves were only arcane elves? Even if WoW fast forwarded to the present? Exactly - you consider the entire lore.

    Liking the Night elves as forest elves of WC3 does not make them exclusively into forest elves. If that is what you think, you must correct your thinking. You are shown a major facet of the Night elves in WC3, but it is not the only, there are key aspects indicated in WC3, but that have much larger stories and roles told in other volumes and games that followed the release of that product.

    It is best to view WC3 as showing a side of the Night elves, but only part of a much bigger whole.

    2. Misconception that The novels and books on the Night elf don't matter and aren't canon. - This is incorrect, the novels and books like Chronicles are all canon material. in fact most of the Night elf lore is in books. The majority of the history of the races and the Warcraft universe is in books and a considerable amount of story, background, are in books. The Night elves had very little in-game development, however they had a large number of novels around them. Their tally comes to 6. Higher than any single race in the Warcraft universe.

    How to treat Conflicts:
    Everything in WC3 is canon, same with the books - sometimes, minor details have some conflict, this doesn't make the previous work all invalid eg. in WC3, the map of the broken isles is different and Suramar is a total ruin rather than partial - some are tempted to think WC3 isn't valid any more. NO, the devs never said that, just take the later version has having a fuller picture. The images of Silvermoon City and Dalaran in WC3 are very different from what we see in WoW, does that mean WC3 is invalid? No, take the wow version as the more complete one in that instance.

    As a general rule, the newer version supersedes the older one, simply take it as a more accurate version



    Common Incorrect Statements from the Opposition-to-Magical Night Elven players.

    1. To the Players Who Say the Arcane and Civilization Is not for Night elves

    That's opinion, not fact.
    a) To say the night elves shouldn't have an arcane culture b/c they banned arcane for 10k years, is also opinion not fact, and is based on the blood elf view of the matter - it is not fact.
    b) To say they have no arcane culture is also wrong - it is wrong in the Darnassian group since the Shen'dralar have joined as it exists amongst those Highborne, it is also wrong amongst other groups like the Moonguard and Farondis.
    c) To say the past doesn't matter as some sort of proof that the night elves don't have the arcane because it's the past is also wrong - not only do they have current arcane users, but just because something is in the past doesn't mean it is somehow no longer a part of them - what you mean to say is that the arcane doesn't play a major role in current Darnassian society - that would be correct but to say this is because the night elves have moved on or rejected the arcane would be incorrect, You have no proof, only head canon. In fact the only correct statement is that the Darnassian group don't have much of an arcane culture as a society.

    N.B.
    • Don't generalise. When you say Night elves, remember you are talking about a race, not just a faction. If you mean a faction, you should say so, and specify which one. For example the faction most player night elves play are the Darnassians, (exception of the demon hunter Night elf - which is not a Darnassian).
    • There is a difference between the arcane as a magical power and the practise of the arcane in a society. The main Night elven never banned the arcane, or hated it, they banned the practise of the arcane for magical spells. It is worth noting that 3 other large Night elven groups did not do so.. .so to generalise that the Night elves banned the arcane is very incorrect.
    • Note the difference between an activity in a society and the capability of an individual or race. To say the arcane is not a core part of the night elves is incorrect, to say it isn't a core or significant part of the Darnassian society at present is correct. Massive difference.




    2. The arcane is not the exclusive purview of blood elves, it is incorrect if you feel it is, it is not (not amongst elves as Nightborne and Night elves show or other races as humans, forsaken, Draenei etc show. Nor are elven magical cities the exclusive right of Blood elves or the horde. Looking at you horde only Blood elf fans, you have erroneously taken it upon yourself to feel that the arcane is your exclusive right, you shouldn't, the birth, greatest development and mastery of it has always been a part of the Night elf race from the start. It is part of the Elf race type set and it is not exclusive to blood elves - as the Nightborne and Kaldorei lore past and present clearly show you. Remember when alliance players felt that having cities, civilizsed races and arcane magic were exclusively their right, well they were wrong when the Blood elves went horde, but in this case, you were shown from the start and told the night elves had this in them.

    3. Blizzard doesn't do races that are about one thing only. The night elves were never only about the forest/nature, the blood elves never only about the arcane. This is clear in every single playable group, race and faction. And is not just meant for very important diversity and a more realistic approach, but also to give players a wide assortment of fantasies to play their characters in a role of. It is a roleplaying game and multiple roles are defined for each race.

    a) Nature is a major part of the Night elf theme - but it is not the only major theme amongst the Night elves.
    b) The arcane has and still plays a major part both in the affairs, history and nature of the Night elf race - note this is not the same as saying "arcane Culture" is predominant or a major part of the Darnassian society


    Arcane, Nature and Divine in Night Elves
    The arcane , nature and Elune are very distinct in night elves yet totally intertwined, this is very unique thing of this race. Each Order whether Elune, the Druids or the Highborne/Moonguard.

    This section is devoted to pointing out key parts where we see aspects of each magic type in all night elves.

    The Arcane In the Night elves
    • Their creation by the magical Well of Eternity
    • Their great affinity and skill for the arcane - by the time of the 1st invasion, all Night elves were learning the arcane from early childhood [note learning doesn't mean all became as prolific as Highborne mages]
    • All Night elves are suffused with the power of the Well of Eternity (their eyes glow silver b/c, and the purple skin tone is a result of the Well's influence on their make-up)
    • The World's most famous magical caste, the Highborne are all Night elves (while it is true some Highborne were turned into Naga by the old gods, some into Satyr by Sargeras, one group by Darth'remar became a new race of elves, the High elves and like all the Night elves of Suramar, the Highborne amongst those left in the city became the new night elf subrace, the Nightborne), the original Highborne is night elven, always was, and the current ones raising new talent amongst the Night elves.
    • The Kaldorei is the only elf group to this day remains unchanged from the arcane infused being that came to be 15,000 years ago, his arcane affinity and talent still there regardless of his chosen class or devotion.
    • The arcane Well of Eternity was the main feature of the Long Vigil era for that group of Night elves
    • The arcane was used prolifically for spells by the city groups in Eldre'thalas and Suramar, as well as the Moonguard in Moonguard Stronghold
    • The arcane waters were all over Night elf Long vigil group lands in Moonwells, suffusing the land, flora and fauna with arcane energy that was utilised to improve them.

    Arcane in Society and Arcane Practice:
    • There is a distinction between the arcane itself and the use of arcane in society or practising.
    • Arcane in Darnassian society is mostly limited to the highborne group, but amongst them it is still quite prolific
    • Arcane practice is prolific amongst arcane wielding Night elves like the Highborne, the Moonguard, Farondis ghosts etc, it is not however a big part of the wider society of Night elves.

    Arcane in the Priesthood:
    • While priests and druids don't use the arcane in the same way or depth as mages do, the arcane is very much present
    • Priesthood of Elune is shown to largely use Arcane spells offensively, fitting the arcane half of the Night elves and its arcane origin
    • Elune is inextricably linked to the arcane Well of Eternity and arcane energy. It's not to say she's only about the arcane, but it's a part.
    • Night elven priests discover Elune first through studying the Well, [I propose that it could be that it is pursuit of the Goddess that drove the initial study of the well that led to discovering the use of arcane magic, and that what became the mage class developed from those amongst the priests or other night elves that sought practical uses for this magic.]
    • The Order is said to hold the Arcane Waters of the Well of Eternity as sacred, and appear to view the use of magic as sacred thing - this would explain their anger at the abuse of magic by the Highborne at the end of Azshara's reign, and Tyrande's disgust at the state she found the Nightborne in when she returns to Suramar. It is also indication that neither the arcane nor arcane magic is hated, but quite the opposite. It is the abuse and reckless misuse that is frowned on as you would expect from a body that holds this magic as sacred. During the Long Vigil they would have opposed the use of the magic for spells, not out of hatred, but out of purpose. . However I can imagine a holy fear over its use to have increased during that period, causing a reticence towards its practice again in some priestesses even after the ban is lifted. It is not a straightforward interaction, there is nuance there, as you would expect.

    Arcane in Druidism
    • Druids suppressed the use of the arcane for spells during the Long Vigil period, but are known in wow, after it ends to use arcane based spells
    • The source of the druidic arcane spells are the stars and moon, not an arcane source like the Well of Eternity - this may explain why druids use these spells.
    • The fact that druids do use arcane powered spells is an indication of the arcane core in this race - their druidism is clearly also linked to the arcane.
    • This also makes sense when you consider the Night elves have an arcane and nature duality, there is going to be arcane love in druids, and nature love in mages.




    Arcane practise and arcane use in society vary, and should not be confused with arcane capability and the presence of arcane magic

    Nature in the Night elves
    • Night elves are shown to also have a deep love and care for nature and the wilds - this was something that drew Cenarius to them before they gained great arcane mastery.
    • Night elves of the Long Vigil on having to ban the use of arcane magic, showed they were quite good at developing nature magic, during that period they:
    • Grew magical world trees,
    • Guided the evolution of the world magically in the Emerald Dream.
    • All Night elves care for nature incl some of the Highborne


    Nature in the Pre-sundering era and Highborne:
    • The Night elves built their cities combining arcane magic and nature magic wielded by powerful Ancients. [source: Well of Eternity Novel]
    • Night elven cities are typically shown to have many gardens, mini forested, garden rooftops, more so than any - as seen by the images of pre-sundering Zin'Azshari in Warbringers Azshara and Suramar City in Legion, the ruins of Eldre'thalas still have Ancients, nature wielders seeking to restore the bastion of arcana.
    • Chronicles mentions that revere for the wilds was absent in the Highborne closest to the Queen during the pre-sundering era, but still there amongst most of the arcane wielding Night elven populace.
    • Azsuna quests show that Highborne not under the greater direct influence of the Queen, like the Farondis did have a courteous respect for the wilds and Elune.
    • Suramar, where the night elves there continued and deepened their intense indulgence in arcane magic, we see having nature and gardens. In the Nighthold, though High Botanist Tel'am sides with the Legion and starts creating twisted aberrations, he and the Nightborne in the gardens are indication of the night elven arcane using communities continuous use of nature magic. It isn't as developed or advanced as what Malfurion (pretty much a genius with nature) did to advance those studies.. but it is further indication of nature amongst arcane wielding night elven groups

    Nature in the Priesthood of Elune.
    • The Order of Elune certainly don't worship the wilds or the wild gods, but they do revere them
    • The priesthood order and their sentinels are seen to fight for the wilds and defend the lands of the night elves, claiming them as the lands of the Goddess.
    • The Priestesses always work closely with the druids when Moonwells are set up, blessing its waters and working in tandem, fully in agreement with the goals of the druids and nature even though they do not actively work towards those ends.
    • It would be very inaccurate to think of the priesthood of Elune as Forest priests or nature priests - that is actually what the druid is. The Order does not worship nor is devoted to the forest or its spirits, and they don't interact much with the druids at all (Feralas Quest line tells us). This makes sense, the druids are constantly in the wilds, the Order operate from bases and oversee civilian life, both during the Long vigil and currently. However, their care for nature exists and is evidenced - we see the priesthood working hand in hand with druids in times of great distress to nature.
    • A good portion of the sentinel army are forest rangers and scouts, huntresses and woodland roamers - this is partly because this has been the main habitat of the Night elven Darnassians over the last 10k years, and as such necessitated a growth in this wing of the Order, but it is an indication of a connection and is quite visible in a good portion of them.
    • There are no nature spells witnessed in the priests, only arcane, light and void ones, however the Sentinel branch of the order with their bows and animal companions are the wing that operate mostly in nature and its environment. You wouldn't become a sentinel huntress if you didn't love the forests. This in my book counts as evidence.



    Elune in the Night elves.
    • The Night elves have had an attachment to the Goddess Elune from the very beginning.
    • They believed she dwelt within the arcane well (hence the Preisthood's arcane connection), and they studied the well as a consequence.
    • The Night Warrior ritual is a powerful spell empowerment for vengeance ruthlessly employing arcane and void energy used initially to conquer Kalimdor around 15,000 years ago and recently in the Night elves' reclaiming of Darkshore
    • The Priesthood has been a staple in ALL forms of Night elf society, although it appeared to be absent from the Suramar community after the sundering, and no record of it being a part of the Eldre'thalas city, it is shown in lore to have been inextricably interwoven with the pre-sundering civilization and we see it is also the leading executive branch of the Kaldorei during the Long Vigil.

    Night elf priests are seen in Night elf lore operating fully in Civilization and Forest wilderness alike

    • Druids may revere the wilds, but they do employ blessings and spells from Elune that are arcane based.
    • Druids can also be heard praising Elune, though their focus is nature and the wilds


    • Farondis Highborne and Shen'dralar Highborne are also heard to praise Elune - now while this may just be an unaltered Night elf file being used, blizzard didn't see it fit to alter the Farondis or Shen'dralar NPCs like they did the high elf or Nightborne ones who have different voice files to the blood elves and Night elves despite being closely linked to those groups. While it may be slight, it is an observation.
    • Arcane civilization and the priesthood went hand in hand in many things. It is quite likely the mages and magecraft originate from the Order of Elune who spearhead the first studies of the well of eternity that lead to the mastery of the use of arcane magic.
    • Highborne may not be devoted followers of Elune, druids aren't either, but both revere and believe her as Goddess.
    • Other arcane wielding Night Elves (lest you forget that the Highborne are not the only arcane wielding Night elves, only the most noble and skilled group of them), are counted as the other night elves that both fear Elune and revere the wilds.

      This is all indication that the Goddess is in every part of the Night elf societies and their people, to varying degrees of devotion, but there none-the-less.

    Conclusion

    Night elves are Elves - magic, the arcane is a core component of the species set, in the Warcraft universe, all this starts from the Night elves, every divergent, off shoot and sub-group of elf carries the arcane aptitude from the Night Elf.

    Night elves are to elves what Zandalari trolls are to trolls, they have the broadest scope, the most diverse attributes of what the elves have - they are the first and the longest going. It shouldn't surprise anyone that the Arcane lives on in the night elf race and is present in all aspects of it (as detailed above - whether the Moonwells and Well of Eternity, the spell set or the arcane groups like the Highborne), nor should it surprise anyone that there are still arcane focused night elven communities and groups, even if arcane practice isn't so widespread amongst the total number of night elves still around today.

    Elunism and Druidism are core parts of the Night elf too, parts which the off shoot groups like the Thalassians (who dropped it) and the Nightborne (who were without influences in these) don't have. However what they do share with the existing kaldorei is the arcane affinity and the magic excellence and practice (also the percentage that it influences each of the various groups and societies varies - with it most prevalent amongst the Nightborne and Highborne group, a little less in the Thalassian groups (most in the void elves, least in the Silver Covenant high elves, with blood elves around the middle mark) and least prevalent amongst the Darnassian society overall (seeing the Highborne society is a smaller section of the Darnassian and doesn't influence it as much as during the pre-sundering era). Still, it should be noted this is a core elven attribute - that the night elves have in lore and in game, and to rid them of it basically is to eliminate the most tangible bond between the groups.

    I would go so far as to describe Elunism an Druidism key elven aspects missing from the smaller groups. This is because the night elf is the parent and wider group, so it has the greater diversity and is the founder of all the branches of "Elvenism" (all the key things related to elves, that elves are most known for)- these stem from the elves and the other groups have this because they come from night elves. While the Thalassians have the Light, bear in mind this expertise does not originate from the original elves, the night elves. The arcane one does, demon hunting does (which they have), but so does druidism and Elunism which they don't have (and I really feel they should, Botanists should have caught up to druids and even some joined them, while some elves, especially Nightborne and void elves should be picking up Elunism). Night elves have also been the longest practicing of all of these, so it shouldn't surprise anyone that night elves like the Shen'dralar are as powerful as any Nightborne or Blood elf - with arcane knowledge only Nightborne can match, and we will have night elf demon hunters that are more powerful or rather more experienced (power is based on how much you've absorbed, if you've been a DH longer, you'd have absorbed more power) because many of them have been at it much longer, or druidism.

    This is the night elf race, the parent elf race, it will have arcane, druidism, demon hunting, divine practice, all magical things associated with the Elves will be present in the parent elf race, just like all the things associated with trolls, the height of the Loa knowledge and expertise and the full representation and diversity is present in the Zandalari - and while some of the troll sub-races have picked up things the Zandalari don't do, like cannibalism and warlock - these practices come either from outside (so not troll in origin and are considered evil or bad enough they won't).. it's a similar case with the original elf group not having the Holy Light things in them.

    The Future:
    Now fully aware that there is a strong long for the nature loving side of the night elves and some calls for savagery (especially from horde fans - regardless of motive), and seeing their is no playable elven group that focuses on this niche, I propose going forward blizzard create a worgen night elf allied race to focus on that.

    Truly night elves as the progenitor Elf race and the originals, should have all facets of the Elves represented in various aspects and societies of the race - this is what makes the night elf unique and not just a forest elf focusing on druidism and forests, nor just a dark elf focusing on arcane magic, dark night and all the other stereotypes.

    While the next night elf allied race I would link to the naga, the worgen one would be perfect to fill the spot, also allowing the Gilnean worgen to focus more on the human kingdoms, reclaiming Gilneas etc, and just having a friendship bond with the night elves, while the night elf worgen to be the ones that relay relate to the druidic night elves as allies.

    Night elf worgen would fill both the savage niche and forest elf niche perfectly. Like a naga race, they'd have a unique humanoid form. So unlike Gilnean Worgen, don't need to be forced to worgen form only in combat. The elf form should be a night elf with more animal features that you can customise, feathered arms like Malfurion's model, animal feet, sometimes claws etc. They should also have a unique worgen form to distinguish them from Gilnean worgen.

    Their story is basically the night elf worgen that were trapped away in the Emerald dream, are now being freed and restored thanks to the recent advances and success with the Emerald dream, Scythe of Elune, and revelations of the Goddess Elune.


    Meanwhile the actual night elves can continue to develop. Urban environments are largely for Highborne and Priests, just like in pre-sundering times, and forest rural environments are dominated by the druidic culture with some priest assistance reminiscent of the long vigil era - players get the best of both worlds. interesting plots and involvements that keep the Illidari demon hunters in the mix albeit on the fringe of societies - but together they are the night elf people. Allied race like the Nightborne, the Naz'dorei and the NElf Worgen continue on, giving players increasingly interesting and exciting customisations to play with.

    Equilibrium in Future Night Elf Society

    It was Queen Azshara who led them. Then after the sundering when they split, each community had it's leaders, for the main kaldorei group it was Tyrande - Malfurion was saving/healing the world primarily, Tyrande led the people as High Priestess - they and the druids were not joined at the hip - they had totally separate lives and functions - with their race and shared responsibility of the Long Vigil the things that held them together. I suspect the first night elf leader was a Priestess too, and Azshara ascending to prime Monarch was because of how incredibly brilliant she was, I would wager she captured the hearts of her people and inspired them, she showed the great benefits of the arcane, a field she was extremely good at and through which extraordinary things could be achieved. When a society becomes more interested in things and stops valuing the true unquantifiable treasures of life, it will go off kilter - to the night elves, the Queen and the wonders she could pioneer became more important even than their goddess and revere of the wilds. And so Zin'Azshari was renamed.

    Society Development and Future
    Back then, Azshara's arcane leadership and the progress it produced must have amazed them to great levels of awe previously reserved for gods (Elune, demi god Cenarius), but this time the power was in the hands of the night elf – a very heady development for a once primitive people emerging (or awakening as they call it) with god like powers.

    This is why arcane development can never capture or snare the hearts of the night elves like it did in the past (they've been there, to the top and fallen too, it's not new any longer), it is also why I feel a fully developed Highborne caste amongst the Darnassians today should not result in the levels of arcane devotion amongst Night elves capable of usurping or undermining that held by the people and druids for nature and the wild gods or that held by the people and priests for Elune like it did towards the end of that era. So those who object to greater NElf arcane development have nothing to fear from a natural rise and advancement of kaldorei arcane institutions returning. it won't spread arcane dependency in the whole race like happened in the pre-sundering era around the invasion era or like exists in the smaller blood elven or Nightborne societies. Or at least it shouldn't. I don't think any night elf (unless they're unhinged) would believe this would happen. Firstly the night elves are much bigger than the other elven off shoots and are the wisest of the groups (most long-lived too alongside the Nightborne), they are also the most complete and so would be model like, having large sections in each area elves are good at, and will be entirely focused on elven life, while the like of Thalassians have always been part of a larger picture involving humans, trolls and orcs etc. And will continue, the Nightborne joining them would likely share that fate, unless blizzard choose to write them more involved with night elf affairs and the night elf world.

    This is why it makes me believe that new night elf society in the post-vigil era, i.e. the current era would be far more balanced than before, and actually eventually restore the best of the pre-sundering era and exceed it. Cities would be the arcane centres and frontier of development and progress for the race, and the places where Highborne would dominate and the priesthood would be intertwined, while the forests would be dominated by druids with the priesthood intertwined - having in a sorts a pre-sundering setting in cities, and a long vigil one in the forests, but an equilibrium, a balance of sorts and harmony that neither previous periods could achieve at their heights- And so this would eventually go the furthest. Gone and never coming back would be the days all the people were swayed into arcane excesses, neither likely to return are the days when total abstinence of the arcane practice and only nature dependence would be the only way to live. The first state became like that because of the Queen and the novelty of what the arcane could do, the second state was because of the Legion and the need desire to stop them.

    Night Elf Empire Would Not Return
    The night elves no longer need to rule the world or dominate it for this future to happen either, so a night elf empire would never return (and that is not what I mean by best ever) – arcane development will grow, but more responsibly which would also lead to greater long term benefits and progress, and even with an enigmatic Azshara like arcane leader, the people are not primitive any longer, they’re not going to be wow’d by wonders into exalting the arcane on a pedestal, only the Highborne caste and arcane mages will, it won't capture the whole society like before, but then neither would druidism or Elunism, regions would have greater influence of one over the other (like cities and Highborne zones would have higher arcane influence, forests higher nature ones) but the revere for the wilds, and trust in the goddess as well as delight tin the arcane would be equally esteemed, and the experts in the each of these fields (i.e. the mage, priest and druid) would be greatly revered –

    What would happen is that the people would have roughly the same reverence for all three, the power of the arcane is phenomenal, but as wielders of it, elves have flaws they must work hard at managing -this keeps you humble, the goddess is a goddess afterall, and that’s incredibly amazing in and of itself, Elune continues to do things for the night elves in ancient time it was her most ruthless phase that helped them and their Moonguard mage armies conquer those what sought to destroy them handing them Kalimdor, and they’ve never forgotten that. Finally nature, nature is what sustains and keeps them alive, keeps them balanced – the fate of the Nightborne is a warning to all elves of what can happen if you indulge in the arcane unchecked and without balance, and nature is the only thing that can remedy that.

    So the arcane provides progress and development, the Priesthood humility, discipline and mental health, the druids balance, harmony and physical health and vitality. This is what there civilization would be, regardless if it is led by one individual or several. My preference would be several. Personally, Tyrande Whisperwind would lead the Priesthood Order of Elune, Malfurion the Druids, a restored Prince Farondis the Highborne and civil leadership. when it comes to matters that threaten all night elves the council will operate in concert.

    They'll have their own zones and realms - with different communities and community leaders - rather than a monarch like before, it would more be a case of the Orders dominating, and then local government - this wouldn't be as effective for development as leadership under one great leader, but they are no longer in a hurry anymore.

    Summary on the Other Elf groups
    Night elves will be closest to blood elves and Nightborne in the city areas, but it would be different - blood elf society is full arcane integrated, not as highly arcanised as the Nightborne were - but the Nightborne are a small group, you are better off think of them like a group of Highbonre who are a city state and prefer to work with the blood elves, the main Highborne group drives the kaldorei urban, development and international relations with far greater resources and numbers. The Nightborne won't be some unique expression of Elves if they continue in their original expression because that's not unique, it's entirely Kaldorei - so there function would be similar to Highmountain, Void elves, Lightforged, Mag'har, essentially a side group that allows you to play a different customisation, and in their case gives the horde access to night elf like models and lore.

    if they want to be unique, they have to find a new purpose, chronomancy is a possibility, but forging a new shared destiny with the blood elves is another - but it isn't ultimately unique either because it's just swapping night elven for blood elven.

    No one should expect the elven groups to be totally unique to each other, yet I find this expectation only amongst elf fans. Trolls all share a lot of similarities, so do all the human races, same with the dawrven ones, the Tauren ones, the Draenei ones despite their differences,. Night elves are the parent elf group, to expect night elves not to have an arcane side or their cities not to have a culture t hat also embraces the arcane and thus view it as "too similar to blood elves just because of that" is disingenuous - night elves uniqueness is in their package, their nocturnal nature, their star/moon based culture and their harmony of the magical elven traits.. It is not that blood elves have arcane and night elves have nature - I keep mentioning this is not DnD, the vision here is bigger, more unique and is more conducive to better roleplaying. Races have more than one thing, and race types will share things, for the elves, it's the arcane that's shared, it cannot therefore be completely absent I the night elvs, and it's great importance means that the night elves will have areas where this is common and prevalent, the cities are the natural choice.
    - - - Updated - - -

    For deeper discourse on Night elf culture I wrote a piece here:

    Response #329

    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    There are two types who train with the Shen'dralar.

    1. Highborne who lived and stayed with the Darnassians - (most likely picked up druidism judging from the Lorekeeper spells), these put aside their status under the old society and upheld the ban, when it was lifted and the Shen'dralar Highborne caste officially accepted back into night elf society, they returned to their calling and caste.

    These are the Lorekeepers you fight in the Azshara zone, who are using "outdated" magic, they are only a few weeks returned to magic, this is how their magic can be exploited because in some areas it hasn't been updated. I can see why some of them are in Talendris point - because the Daranssians are short on numbers, and although they've switched back to the arcane, they know battle and combat -


    2. Novices, brand new night elves who have the talent for the arcane. These are now Highborne (everyone who trains with the Shen'dralar is picked by them to join the caste, so these novice mages are now Highborne too). You see them as clumps of students in Azshara zone, Feralas, Darnassus, they like the adventurer would be starting from scratch, but are highly gifted and talented in the arcane. Which is the criteria for their selection.

    Technically there isn't "lowborne" kaldorei after the sundering except in Suramar. The Long Vigil group had a culture change with high and low no longer having any meaning, which is why when Darth'remar 's group are exiled, they are called Highborne once more I would imagine they had stopped being called that. In the Shen'dralar of Eldre'thalas, it's an all Highborne community and city.


    And FYI - lowborne is not a caste. There isn't such. It is a slur, as quests in Suramar show (which as you well know is Kaldorei pre-sundering and Highborne culture). Caste's are select groups based on status or function. If you understand what the term caste means, you can pick out some castes amongst the night elven old or Highborne led society.

    • Highborne caste ofc
    • There was a nobility caste that wasn't Highborne - like Lord Ravencrest - this would have been from older nobility before the Queen creates a new higher order.
    • There is the Priest caste - The Order of Elune is an entire society of it's own, they are a very presitigious and well known caste.
    • The druid's and followers of nature would have been a caste too, though those that remained by the invasion period were not part of most urban societies, Malfurion was not aware of them for example and in that invasion period, Cenarius was legend/myth amongst many a city night elf in Suramar (WotA Well of Eternity), however he tells us some o the treants are night elves, some who've forgotten that they're elves. They may not consider themselves s such, but to the highly educated and strcutred night elves of a global well organised and structured empire, they would be considered a caste by most night elves even if they didn't regard themselves as such

    Now I am not sure of others, but those would have been the major ones, the rest of the society would likely be normal, and have various degrees of prestige and esteem whether as crafters, mage soldiers like the Moonguard (not a caste), the Valewalkers, the military - only the above would have a "different lifestyle" based on endogamy, with a niche culture within the main culture.

    Think about it, You could be raised to Highborne by the Queen, but most Highborne by the time of the 1st invasion are born into it. Now less light appears on the priest caste, so we don't know if it is hereditary or calling based or both, it operates differently from the Highobrne ofc, and they're all female too.

    Much is Unknown About the Night Elves Ancient Culture
    One of my big desires is to know more about Night elf culture, it's an entirely made up culture, and it's different from human culture, while maintaining some parallels. THe Night elves were benevolent and graceful, and highly intelligent for the most part, until around the time of the 1st invasion when the Queen was obsessively pushing forward with studying the well and the use of arcane magic, she got addicted, they became quite arrogant and reckless - which is not exactly benevolent or graceful. There civilization would have ben stunning and utopic for the most part until that bad attitude and arrogance/pride started festering. Highborne close to the queen were very proud of their elevated status and favour by the Monarch, and use d that to be very "ungraceful" getting the ire of most of the society. There arrogance led to use aracne magic without caution for wider consquences, which leads to the Queen discovering the Legion when Sargeras reaches out, the madness in Zin'Azshari's palace is ripe as the Queen opens the gateway and has her highborne lackeys in the palace continue the effort.

    Now ofc we know not all Highborne were complicit, some like the Farondis rebelled entirely, and she made a public and harsh example of them, which imo, is why the Shen'dralar didn't oppose the queen for so long (at least openly, Malfurion says they did nothing until their city was attacked - which to me simply means if they were opposing her, it wasn't openly - however they caught her ire as she sent demons there, which means they weren't supporting her either).

    Suramar ofc rebelled we know this, the night elf resistance, Tyrande, the Order of Elune, the shadowsongs etc all come from Surmar, many rallied to Lord Ravencrest in the Val'Sharah province in Black Rook Hold, a lot of Suramar was destroyed by the demons pouring out through the second portal - this is why Maiev, also from Suramar hates the legion so much, Elisande's group of Highborne rebel against the queen, seal the portal, but refuse the new High Priestesss (Dejanah is killed in that invasion of Suramar) invitation to march on Zin'Azshari. Most cities would have rebelled against the queen, because she sent the demonic horde to all of them.

    I would imagine that those amongst them that sided with her would have gone to the palace, but if the Azsuna lore is considered carefully, there is a good chance that most away from the epicentre at the palace were not so consumed and mislead - which is why they weren't spared.

    WotA tells us most night elves were shocked as the demonic horde destroyed their cities and civilization, crying for the Queen to save them , unwilling to believe or stunned she had betrayed them. It took some effort convincing Ravencrest that the Queen was no victim of some arrogant Palace Highborne plot, but the instigator.


    However, while we know about the Highborne - as its culture dominates Suramar and we have lots of history including wotA of their character, we actually don't know much about the cutlture. We know the stars plays a huge role, these people love the stars (they love their arcane magic and they love nature, and they love their Goddess) but they also love the stars, in fact the stars is the epicentre of their civilization - they call themselves the Children of the Stars - not the children of the moon, nor the children of the forest, nor the children of the Well nor Children of Eternity. But the stars. We know their tall palatial towers are called astrological towaers, and we know that across the board, priests, druids, mages alike call down arcane magic from the stars and moon.

    Current Suramar Culture - is a Unique Kaldorei Pre-sundering Culture:
    Star Augurs exist thanks to Star Augur Ertraues, and gives us some insight into this further. However Nightborne Suramar while preserving their kaldorei culture pristinely over the millennia, is not the full picture of the culture of the age.

    When the shield comes up, certain things are lost:

    • The priesthood - a major part of culture and a powerful and revered caste amongst the people is gone
    • The stars and sky are gone - these would have played a heavy cultural significance blizzard have yet to reveal - but Suramar has a conjured sky cos the shield obfuscates the real one, Astrology towers would be useless and much star arcane magic dormant too (coming alive again when the shield drops in Legion)
    • Nature is also heavily reduced - nature love and revere for the wilds is part of the night elf make up as much as having an arcane essence and love from their creation from the well of eternity is. Under the shield, the influence of this is severly diminished, and while the botanists maintain the garden and evelop skill in nature magic with the little nature they have there - you can see another facet eroding.

    This leaves Suramar culture to be heavily Highborne caste influenced, with the much of the things of the wider society dying, so in effect, Suramar lives for most of the 10,000 years, like the Highborne caste only use to live, so the caste's culture and attributes now extend to dominate most of the city and all the other non-Highborne who stayed behind. Eldre'thalas would be similar to this, and this is why they are similar to the Blood elf culture.

    Blood elf culture is different, it is not the same as the Highborne caste's culture nor pre-sundering Kaldorei culture, but it has some similarities based on what they dropped. The High elves dropped Elune worship, dropped the near spiritual revere for the wilds and the obsession with the ngith stars and moon. - this in many respects happens in Suramar culture, but to a lesser extent, because unlike the High elves, Suramar night elves aren't angry with Elune or being Night elves or anything like that.

    However the rigid stratification, status obsession and nobility intrigue and vying for power that we have evidence had become more common place around the invasion period amongst the "no longer benevolent" palace highborne continue ofc in Suramar that has lower castes - whereas amongst the High elves it isn't, everyone is equal, they instead are forming a better society. Meanwhile Shen'dralar society, all Highborne too, would have a major difference over Suramar society having both access to nature and the stars

    Other differences include the obsession and reckless use of arcane magic is absent from the High elves. Yes, they use and love arcane, but they're very strict and disciplined in its use (this is a thing the blood elf society that emerges after WC3 abandons). High elves, you can imagine more like an America, that has a King because George Washington doesn't die, and is a very good leader everyone respects, and this legacy continues through his children, so while a Monarchy, it isn't like Night elf society around the invasion period - one would say in their character, the high elves seem a bit closer to the Farondis Highborne and the earlier version of the caste before hubris and reckless abandonment overshadowed.

    More differences ofc exist, diurnal instead of nocturnal, the sun, the Light religion - but as a more pragmatic than religious/superstitious people, th einfluence of religion is not so critical hence why there are similarities. High elves afterall are based off Highborne they once were.


    However, there are differences, it is not the same society - it's like Dark Iron dwarves and bronzebeard dwarves, or and the druidic culture long vigil kaldorei, seem very different on the surface, but they're elves, and theya re the main elves never forget that. The long vigil society ofc changed a lot, reverence of the wilds playa much larger role as now without the arcane that group must rely totally on nature, unlike ever before. Druids become a large group, mages becaome non-existent in their community it change for the needs of the era - which is to prevent the Legion from returning.

    It is not all unfamiliar, there were parts of night elven society that lived closer to this in the pre-sundering era, (think of It as a more rural, superstituious living -but without the silliness cos they're elves, not to mention the supernatural stuff is real now). They are de-centralised, and de-urbanised during ths period, when it ends that changes ofc, they have a centralised government, a city, and then arcane magic returns, things they didn't have to care about, like progress and advancement become necessary again, fortunately for the new post-vigil Darnassian society, the Highborne have also rejoined, and they are very much about progress , development and infrastructure - absolute necessities for group no longer in a bubble where all they had to focus on was hunting down rogue magic users trying to summon the legion or prevent people from accessing the Well of Eternity and learning the very magic that could lead them in turn to contact the legion and get duped by Sargeras.


    So there you have it. The different night elven cultures, and elven cultures have differences and similarities alike.

    What we haven't seen is the full pre-sundering night elf culture with all its customs, habits, focuses, and a lot of wholes in Elune and the stars aspect of them that have yet to be filled.

    It is noteworthy that the kaldorei don't change their name at all, not even when a large part is very nature focused during the long vigil, and the city groups are very arcane focused. only the Shal'dorei change their name because they now live under night less sky in a state they feel would be their forever.

    The Stars and the Role and Significance They Could Play
    The way I am imagining it is that the stars and arcane are so embedded in them, that though culture completely changes for some of them, that aspect endures. I don't imagine priests and druids learnt spells like starfall during the long vigil. These would have been from the pre-sundering era, a legacy that continues though in a much reduced capacity, the exploration and strudy of the stars would have been elevated with the use of arcane magic from the well via astrolgocial towers, with priests and augurs who would marry spiritual significance with practical and magical applicaton - stars guide you navigationally, and would have magical connotations in magical world, like enhancing the intensity of their spells and focus on the ley lines. Stars also predict the future to some extent and characterise, it could be that a night elves destiny and calling are written in their stars,a nd a significant part of how their individual and daily lives are ordered could be baed on knowledge of these and experts in these fields lead the people. Who to marry would be in your stars, - also magical transportation would be stars related. Astrological alignment would dominate kaldorei cities patterned in layout based on the constellations and structured to mirror them, and this replication enhances spell work and causing stellar lamination to the cities in the night in way they would have if they were not so ordered.

    You can then see in a much simplified society with far fewer people and far fewer acitivies, not to mention advanced activities, wile still significant to the kaldorei of the long vigil group, the role of the stars is less apparent, than it would be in a full civilization with billions carrying out all sorts of functions and roles in all manner of areas most of all magic ofc, but also callings to technology and science, industry (which is a totally different topic of exploration - how would industry work in a magical society, there wouldn't be a need for it like there is in a magicless or near magicless one - which is another consideration to how very different elven life can be from human life) , cooking and food, with restaurants, what about leisure and etenrtainment too. It is likely they don't have "gods", but stars would have been attributed to various functions and aspects of life, like love and war etc.. wild gods would be more to do with nature related things and animals, crops and growing, but it is slikely the two would have mixes. from the sky above and the stars, to what's on the ground.


    I could go on and just imagine a ton of things based on the information they've given us. Now much of this is simply gone in the high elven society, star reference exists but only with respect o magical amplification, the stars are beautiful to elves, so is nature, but the obsession over it like the kaldorei people have is gone, replaced with the Sun, the light and confidence in themselves as their own masters - not Goddesses or stars or such.

    The Nightborne being a highborne culture community would have similar pragmatism, but they would have lots of things from the kaldorei community they are based on. Now the Shen'dralar would be like the Nightborne, even more Highborne though, but nothing would have been divorced an d left out, and rejoining the Darnassians, it would be like old times with the priesthood, except the balance of power has shifted, they are not the pinnacle of this society, they are more on the fringes and still a bit their own thing, with full integreation not having come yet.


    The Future:
    It would be nice to see what the pre-sundering society is like and I think that they should make an effort to show this in Night elven cities in the future, while night elven forests should preserve the Long vigil like era - so you get to experience the two extremes of night elven eras just by changing habitat.

    It wouldn't be entirely liekpre-sudnering times, cos now there are other races, allies and powerful enemies where in the past the kaldorei were supreme. Also they have new influences, like the demon hunters that developed with Ilildan in the first invasion, and the possibility that other disciplines and faiths like Paladins and Shamanism might make their way to the night elves. I would like them not to personally, and if they give night elves the paladin and shaman class it would actually be playstyles for night elf based versions like the Night Warrior for Paladins and the Star Augurs for shaman (or Arcane Entropists or Thermautages) - something elven based on their lore. The lazy way would be to just have a few one of individuals, so they are in a sense like Orc mages and Mag'har priests - just lone one off indivduals that join the human paladin teachings or the draenei on shamanism.

  6. #6
    Anyone remembers the wod alpha datamined night elf model?



    Things sure look already better from the start this time around...

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post
    Anyone remembers the wod alpha datamined night elf model?



    Things sure look already better from the start this time around...
    Oh I remember, they uglified the night elf female, dyking/butching her up a lot, it annoyed a lot of fans, and the change happened because.

    It is the proof that really, when it comes to night elves they had stopped trying to make special , exceptional and extraordinary.. but are happy to make them go niche.

    For all my talk, I can promise you this.. the night elf thing is OVER. Blizzard's heart shifted from night elves to blood elves when they fell in love with their own work in TBC. And Suramar and the Nightborne was going to be the night elf great revival but that died when the Nightborne were taken to the horde.

    Night elves grand vision as the elven progenitor super race DIED a long long time ago. I firmly am convinced that the night elves in warcraft 3, we're going to be developed majorly, they were going to regain all their pre-sundering prowess while keeping all their long vigil capability , they were going to be complex and diverse, a duality, special, given detailed treatment and speciality. This had one chance to be re-ginited on a huge scale when the race was once more spotlighted fully in all its aspect, but they took the most attractive bits over to the horde, leaving the actual night elves niche. There will be no grand revival. All my talk is the past and shining a light on how good I found the original plan vision.

    Legion gave me some hope with Suramar, but Nightborne going horde followed by no show has killed it totally. The grand vision is dead, night elf are going to be developed as a Forest Elf race, niche all the way, and they're not going to care. Legion was closing sonnet and I think the last great effort for the night elf as anything more.

    My Prophecy on the Future of the Night Elves and the Decline of Warcraft
    The horde elf fans are going to be very relieved that night elven arcana was never pursued or developed, as they greedily want it only on the horde via the Nightboren.. but they're not going to like how their future goes.

    The alliance, and masses are going ever push for more high elf stuff, blizzard will see that high elf stuff brings a lot of interest on the alliance too,. you see they could never push the blood elves Lore wise on the horde much without undermining it's identity, , besides the point of the blood elves was to get players to pack out the horde, not to remake the horde - but they were so attractive model and feature wise, alliance fans coveting what they knew was an alliance race, whined for them and always desired them - lotR influence on fantasy is far more powerful to a lot of people than the niche "let's be different" thing blizzard tried to do with blood elves.

    As such, it will draw far more elven focus to the Thalassians, to the point that alliance and horde will get major elven developemtn to their void/high elf and blood elves and htis will be the frontier.

    Night elves will sink to forest elves.. and Nightbore- they will fade into blood elf skin replacements. Suramar would just be a pretty city, no relevance, no serious development in lore, no unique identity no forays into the night elf world.

    there will be no more night elf books either - it ended with legion. and died when the Nightborne went horde.

    i have very very good reason to suspect this.

    once me and my friends stop positing about night elves like lunatics, it will die down, most of the biggest night elf enthusiasts love the Highborne pre-sundering aspects of the night elves too.. the biggest opposers are the horde elf fan base - even team savage kaldorei actual night elf fans who love the forest elf side, are not opposed to more Highborne and demon hunters, they just want to see their night elves i.e. druids and Amazonians feral, savage and deadly again - that's it, as long as Highborne /DH stuff doesn't take away from sentinel/druid stuff they're fine..

    But the horde fan base is very loud on elven matters, and the alliance fanbase cares more about high elves than it does night elves. When the developers failed to protect the integrity of the night elves promising future for them they had started building that would have included the Nightborne, this all died and got scrubbed by that decision.

    Night elf development was swapped for void elf development - the fans took the switch, void elves raised the volume and hope for high elves - and this si what they will care about.

    It could have been a much nicer picture for night elves. It could have been, but it never will be.

    Night elves will stay as niche till warcraft dies now, and high elves and humans will be the primary focus on the alliance. blood elves would never get the clean sweep they wanted. Devs would soon find out that high elves around doesn't affect horde numbers at all, their protected status will change as high elves are equally developed to teh point that the race will mean much more on the alliance than it does on the horde, despite the horde still having relatively the highest numbers on it. Cause blood elf lore will always be something for the horde blood elves, but they will notice the shift and strength of the alliance.

    The age of the night elves is truly dead. Tyrande and Ardenweald, savage WC3 night elves are Niche, they will never capture the playerbase imagination like Highborne, high civilization night elves would. The original combination of arcane and nature night elves would have been powerful. It is dead. Once more of us go, we won't be replaced, new fans won't be as excited over night elves as we were, because all the interesting factors would be gone.. remaining fans would not this die hard - they'd be drawn to what's shown as neat and attractive - and that will be in human high elves.

    Savage might cool n all, but it's niche, just like those who love furries get really excited about them, but they are a minority, even when that minority is loud, it's instant when the really popular groups get attention, their minority clamour is easily drowned.

    Warcraft itself will fade, the demise of the night elf is just a result of bigger issues that have changed the philosophy of design in the team - gone would be the painstaking love and detail that showed it self across the board, and down will be the inspiration too, even the artists, and musicians, the most inspired for the actual fantasy amongst the developers would find themselves further marginalised, detail and tlc replaced with efficiency, greater emphasis and target and throughput rather than thoroughness, depth, and love.

    and it will eventually become junk. They wouldn't care as it would make money drawing in fast crowds, quick release like mobile games, no loyalty fanbase like the 00s generation - and in time it will just die.

  8. #8
    Usually the loudest people are the ones that see what they like unfulfilled, which is the case for Alliance High elfs.
    Personally I doubt that the highelfs will play a major role in the future, nothing I saw in BFA or Shadowlands.

    Night Elf are a niche and they better stay that way, I don't want them to be generic as the humans on Alliance.
    I don't get where are all the Horde Elf fans that want old school Highborn for themselves.

    So you are saying night elf development was swapped for void elf development. Void Elfs are probably the most niche kind of elf, they only really work, as in the name, they are hyper focused on void, a theme that doesn't even fit with the Alliance that well. When I look at void elf development, its practical zero. What did Alleria do in BFA? What did Umbric? These are the only lore characters they have and Umbric urgueable still has no character, they did not even take him or Alleria to face of Azshara. And Alleria may only appears in shadowlands because she is Sylvanas sister not because she is a Alliance Voidelf.

    For me it is more likely that the opposite of what you are saying happen. The Allied Races will be mostly on the sideline in the future for the Alliance.
    The Alliance Faction had a hyper focus on humans on most of the last 15 years, this may change now and the races that may get a bigger role now are Worgen and Night Elfs. In BFA they planted the seeds for that. They will focus on core themes for the races, thats something that was apparent in BFA as well.
    The dream of unity with elfs is dead for the near future. I could imagine that this may change at some point, but for now night elf will focus on dark elf and wood elf themes (and shadowlands may put them more on a dark elf track). The Shen'dralar will probably stay as a small part of the night elfs but at least they got two tiny moments in BFA thats still more then a lot of Core Races or Allied Races got.

  9. #9
    WC3 Megathreader Lilithvia's Avatar
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    I'm really enjoying the night elf customization coming in SL. I might actually pick up my night elves again.

  10. #10
    From the official forums and https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...-of-the-Stars)

    I'd like to bring this over and hear your thoughts on this. The lack of development on the night elves has lead to an off kilter presentation, but the most core identity of them has had little no follow through in their visible content. Why? And what can be done. This is what is discussed here.

    ** Dislcaimer"" if you don't want to talk about elves, no need to respond.


    Blizz, what happened to the core of the night elves?
    Kaldorei - meaning Children of the STARS is what they are named after and I presume originally centred on, but got diverted from that destiny after the Legion came. I'm kinda quite curious at this stage, especially since the Legion and Long Vigil are now over, and the main theme of this race and details of its original culture and identity which it didn't rename itself from still seems core to them, but not focused on or fleshed out in game by blizz.


    With the Legion and Long Vigil gone, it's given the night elves room to develop this more fully - But it's lack so far leaves me with the impression blizz kinda strayed a bit too far off track with the nigh elves who seem more like children of the trees or moon than stars.


    Another thing worth mentioning is "the stars" is a very unique focus concept and makes you more excited and mysterious than the over used wood elf and dark elf themes, so it seems odd to cut out potentially the most unique rewarding and creative feature of the night elves and I greatly desire highly recommend they start showing them as their namesake.


    Would really like to see them get back to that original "best of the dark elves meet best of the wood elves" vision with the stars and moon unique elements playing central roles intertwined with their arcane and nature duality.
    Do you remember this interview?
    `https://i.imgur.com/koc3l88.png`


    Now emphasising the stars and the role they play in every facet of these two major parts of the night elves - arcane civilisation and forest life I think would make them more exciting and feel like the unique elven group the marrying of dark elf and forest elf original vision seemed to hint at. Sadly most of wow has been lame elf and wood elf for the night elves, rather than star focused dark elf and wood elf.


    So as far as the things about the night elves we know most of from screen time in game are:


    The Forest connection we get a lot of
    Night elf lore on forest love is pretty fleshed out and integrated in the race - with druidism and the emerald dream having a lot of info on it, nature and the wild gods.


    We also see the night elves connect to nature screen time wise and we get it. Druids in animals, looking after trees, caring for them, forest communities.


    Character customisation added vines and bushy eyebrows too - we gots that. But they aren't children of the forest or trees.


    "The Moon connection we get a fair bit of too
    Next is Elune. She's been showing up more thanks tot eh Night warrior ritual, we also see a lot of the order in WC3, we read about them in night elf civilziation in WotA. we saw the Cathedral of Eternal night, but it's not as fleshed out as the forest.


    We finally got to see Elune 's temples, we see moon symbols, druids, Tyrande and Nightborne/Moonguard casters use moon spells. The clerical side of the order is known though it's detail isn't fleshed out, but it's stated.


    We see moon symbols in the new tattoos, and 1 female headpiece and earring option.
    Elune is discovered through studying the well, believed to have fashioned the night elves from the well, and we know has some link to their arcane ability.


    But they aren't children of the moon.


    Way too little role of the actual key namesake, the stars. It is the most mysterious one. Is this the missing link, that connects the above two and the great mysterious pre-sundering culture? Have we seen the least of this because it was most strongly connected to the arcane phile pre-sundering culture, and is a casualty and mystery left for later when both civilization and arcane return and blizz would take a closer look?


    The Stars
    Here is where the most fundamental part of the night elves is, but the least evidence of shown. This core part of the night elves is still very mysterious running deeper than nature, Elune, the arcane but tied to all of these. But it's cultural significance, relevance and presence is sorely lacking in NElf content and material.


    I do kinda feel cheated every time I delve into the night elves and see more about the forest than the stars or moon or night - and really hope they fix this.


    Evidence of stars in Night elves so far

    • Greeting/farewell emote "stars guide you"
    • Star spells priests, druids, mages associated with the kaldorei which we see NPCs cast and use
    • We know they kept their identity children of the stars defined them in the pre-sundering era, and didn't shift during the long vigil, so it is something, which like the night ties to both their arcane and nature halves, even though it's strongly connected to arcane casting and knowledge.
    • We know their cities built astrological towers, but nothing is fleshed out.
    • Hints of some sort of star/celestial facet to their religion, but details are scarce, even Elune worship details are limited despite her prominence.
    • Druid balance spec class spells - as the only kaldorei culture based class, it's here they showed that star part of the kaldorei into game mechanics.


    Trivia: Why we see star spells only on the druid class
    The druid class' (the only class based on kaldorei culture even though they are credited with developing the mage and demon hunter classes too) balance spec spells is our biggest in-game mechanics features that shows this - which is ironic since the stars are associated with their arcane half/talent more predominant to the priesthood and night elven arcane users like the Highborne and Moonguard. But it's because night elf priests and mage class in game are not designed on the kaldorei root versions but the human versions and humans and their high elf teachers don't have this strongly in their culture or Holy Light religion it is missing in the in-game classes unless they introduce class racial spells. Druids were based on the kaldorei so have this. But NPC night elf priests and mages are shown to have star spells.


    I want to know more Character customisation has nothing about, save maybe the 1 diamond pendant added for neck pieces. This central theme is completely missing, and often ignored showing more forest love or elune love, but not the stars.

    What I imagine
    So I've had to use my imagination so far thinking of as many ways this can apply to night elves and culture, and assume/hope it will be fleshed out more. So if we are going by what the name implies, here are some "I wonder ifs" I can think of, that might apply to night elves?



    • Their star love is the most basic and fundamental to them
    • The night elves fell in love with trees because it helped bring them closer to the stars.
    • Arcane love may be genetic, but was the motivation for delving into the arcane was reaching and calling the stars - hence why the 3 major kaldorei classes from the beginning mage, druid and priest can all call down stars?
    • Night elf names are based on star charts
    • Night elves roles and professions are foretold by star seers and are organised on that path based on their star charts
    • Night elf cities are built on leylines, but the building configuration and flow is built to match the constellations
    • Night elf magical astronomy/astrology is the basis of mage portalling (it's how they discovered and mastered portals)
    • Night elves some times magically inscribe their constellation pattern on their bodies and would glow when using arcane magic (fell out of practice amongst the Long Vigil group, but has returned since the ban on arcane practice was lifted).
    • The reason their eyes shine silver is because their star love was so big, it somehow lit the arcane power within to reflect the light of the stars
    • Night elves love diamonds a lot, because they remind them of stars (but had to do without most of that as one of the many sacrifices the long Vigil demanded, but now it's over it's back in style along with fashion and love for all things purple) - good way to reflect in character creation


    Visibly Bringing out more of the Star identity of the Night elves In-Game


    So let's look at some practical ways blizz could potentially bring out more of this kaldorei - Children of the STARS identity.


    Racials:

    • If you ever give an active damage ability racial, let it involve the stars.
    • If we ever get class specific racial spells as a feature: having star related abilities across the kaldorei based classes (mage, priest, hunter, DH, rogue) would be good


    Character Customisation

    • Diamonds - often indications of stars, in jewellery and hence as cultural items should dramatically increase, so more head piece and neck pieces and earrings with stars for females and crescent moons too
    • Male head pieces/ear rings can look something like this: especially floating ones like in this image. Could serve as a highborne customisation. https://imgur.com/VbQUtfa
    • Notice star effects in hair linked to head pieces too like this image
    • https://imgur.com/a/lA7CMa9 colour variants
    • Star's tattooed like magical glowing runes on skin, like a custom that some NElves would tattoo their constellation birth on their skin. Even extend the internal arcane power their eyes glow silver with this. Something similar to this.https://i.imgur.com/jDid5OG.png?1
    • * Star effect alternative for vines in hair would also be good. The effect could look like this: https://i.imgur.com/nZFTzWu.png?1
    Culture references in quests, novels

    • Bring this up whenever you go to the night elves from now on,
    • In their new city, show the Astrological towers,
    • Let's see NPC mage starmancers and Star Augurs (priest/mage cross overs)
    • Highborne/Moonguard/Moon Priest NPC casters wielding star/moon spells in combat
    • Reference to the stars in birthing, naming rituals
    • Night elves told their star and a ritual that inscribes it in them.
    • Houses in the new city matching the constellations, personal house, sleeping positions matching the stars
    • Magic amplification and drawing from the stars.
    • Elune and arcane connection

    - - - Updated - - -

    I think this can work as a good development for both night elves and Nightborne - ofc heavier in the night elves but then the Nightborne can show that civilization side of this, especially now they're out in the open sky again, they can see a revival of Elunism, the star culture of the kaldorei and druidism. So they remain kaldorei centred sub-race they are rather than lose their identity or worse, become blood elf clones.

  11. #11
    New customizations are everything I asked for, for sure. Can't wait to make my druid feral and give my rogue some kickass new scars. I particularly appreciate them giving back the "glitched" eye covering look (darker, eyes pierce straight through it. Apparently always intended to be covered by the eye wrappings, but I thought it looked better without them.)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    From the official forums and https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...-of-the-Stars)

    I'd like to bring this over and hear your thoughts on this. The lack of development on the night elves has lead to an off kilter presentation, but the most core identity of them has had little no follow through in their visible content. Why? And what can be done. This is what is discussed here.
    Same opinion here as there: There was lots of development of the night elves this expansion, more than any other, and the "core identity" you harp on about is better represented in the nightborne, which are already playable.
    Last edited by Powerogue; 2020-07-11 at 06:01 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by DatToffer View Post
    Sylvanas will just give her own head to Tyrande.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    New customizations are everything I asked for, for sure. Can't wait to make my druid feral and give my rogue some kickass new scars. I particularly appreciate them giving back the "glitched" eye covering look (darker, eyes pierce straight through it. Apparently always intended to be covered by the eye wrappings, but I thought it looked better without them.)

    - - - Updated - - -



    Same opinion here as there: There was lots of development of the night elves this expansion, more than any other, and the "core identity" you harp on about is better represented in the nightborne, which are already playable.
    They need to work on the distinction lines a bit better.

    They originally defined the night elves as an umbrella elven group containing many facets, but developed significantly their druidic side more than any other. They did seriusly develop the arcane side, and yes this culminated in the nightborne that did bring about that dark elf side of the night elf into a much fuller sense.

    however the faction partition, and lack of nightborne expansion leaves the whole thing unsatisfactory.

    Example there are Highborne on the night elf side, and demon hunters, they are a key part of the nighte lf idnetity, and if the Nightborne are the group to carry this forward (they can be, i'm not sure they alone should be - for e.g. I don't see why we can't have both the highborne adn Nightborne carrying it forward, just like we have the high elves and blood elves - it doesn't have to be only the horde faction side).

    in which case they need to show some Highborne development, which is why the extra push for more Highborne customisations, involvement etc.

    If they want to carry that side of the Night elves on the Nightborne, fine, but they should find a way to involve the Highborne too, so that kaldorei aspect is tied in with the Nightborne in development forward.

    The best way would be to open up the Nightborne to be friendly with the kaldorei, and have the highborne mostly hang out with the Nightborne despite being on opposite factions, keep the highborne a major part of the nightborne developement, and keep other kaldorei groups like the val'sharah druids, valewalkers and priests having involvement.

    Almost as if to separate the Kalimdor group into a separate night elf more reclusive/exclusive forest group. So you have the druid/prietsess night elf group in Kalimdor bearing the WC3 and druidic classic, but then on the Broken Isles, it's really different, here you have the playable demon hunters and highborne on the alliance side freely interacting and working with the nightborne, and they're all buddy buddy even though they're on opposite factions.

    with them, factions isn't that relevant, they're more into the ancient legacy of suramar and restoring it.. besides faction animosity is at a low, and while tyrande's group is focused heavily on revenge, the highborne/dH amongst them are far more open, having to work many a times with other races etc.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    dH amongst them are far more open, having to work many a times with other races etc.
    Their is no "DH amongst them" or the Sin'dorei.

    The Demon Hunters are, by lore standards, a neutral group of exiled elves that do not seek to align with either the night elves of the alliance or those on the Broken Isles or the blood elves of the horde, the Sunreavers or the Scryers.

    And this isn't much of a question of either belf or nelf demon hunters wanting to be with them, it's a case that the nightborne don't want to be around them (the demon hunters.)

    The Illidari faction work better as their own unit which is strictly a blood elf/night elf led faction, with Naga, Shivarra and Broken allies. Nightborne and Void Elves don't fit this club and they should be kept separate.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    Their is no "DH amongst them" or the Sin'dorei.
    .
    You misunderstand what I meant by that, and taken it straight out of context as usual. Read as the the DHs who are night elves as in part of their race, not necesasrrily part of their faction. Which you should know I am aware of the faction alignments, so you shouldn't be misunderstanding what I say.

    But I know you like correcting, so, thanks? for the clarification that is.

  15. #15
    I would have night elf hair looking something like this



    However I also think Nightborne should share this. As a similar affect. Nightborne already have arcane hair, strands that glow with arcane energy.. that would remain unique to them, just like vines would be unique to night elves.

    However all should be able to have stars. I would also add star skin tattoos to both. That's me more personally.


    I think night elvescould do with a night only unique star effect on them , I think Nightborne would be more focused on having arcane effects, while Night elves for priests and mages in particular can have arcane star effects as their thing.

    Something like this












    Obviously not a copy paste of these, these are somewhat over excessive, except for the first, which is the astral form star effect... you want something similar but modified to the other pics, which would do great for Highborne, Moonguard and Moon Priest types.


    Some options can be acquired as racial heritage variations that add an effect that fits a category. But having some star iconography in the character customisation would actually do a lot of good.

  16. #16
    Herald of the Titans Ardenaso's Avatar
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    would you guys consider Zerx Hydromon a Shen'dralar?
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    I make Warcraft 3 Reforged custom models that intends to fill the gaps in the Reforged campaign

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    would you guys consider Zerx Hydromon a Shen'dralar?
    Oh no, he was human .. although they may retcon him to have been a highborne with a human glamour on.. like they tend to do with everything

  18. #18
    Herald of the Titans Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Oh no, he was human .. although they may retcon him to have been a highborne with a human glamour on.. like they tend to do with everything
    planning to change him into a Shen'dralar mob in my "actual Reforged" campaign project; there's already Shen'dralar mobs (or at least representing them) in the Rexxar campaign so nothing's wrong with it
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    I make Warcraft 3 Reforged custom models that intends to fill the gaps in the Reforged campaign

  19. #19
    Anyone noticed the new Nightborne tattoo effects?


    It's really cool



    Now, I am quite happy with this being exclusively Nightborne. But I really feel there are some effects, star related that should be exclusively night elf, some should be shared between both and some should be exclusively Nightborne.

    If Nightborne have aracne hair, let night elves have hair with star effects
    if Nightborne have arcane tattoos, let night elves have the star showers
    Let both have the option for star constellations tattooed onto their skins.


    They don't have to be distinctly different. But the biggest problem with both Night elf and Nightborne males is ugly faces = they really have to at least try to give some nicer options.

    I like @Astranea 's modified face 7 for the NElves, but surely they could have done better with the Ngihtborne faces.



    or even this by @Big Mama



    Just pointing out to how simple it is to do much nicer looking faces for night/borne kal/Shal'dorei male faces.

  20. #20
    When will night elf hands and feet be updated. They are 2 polygon blobs.

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