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  1. #321
    Quote Originally Posted by OwenBurton View Post
    Elune's connection to the arcane is a very complicated one. I wonder whether she and Eonar had some kind of cosmic exchange on Elunaria long ago - perhaps teaching each other their different powers, Eonar (as an Arcane Titan) learning Life-based powers, and Elune (as a Life-based being) learning Arcane powers.

    I think the night elves, being the "children of the stars" and who evolved as a race due to proximity to the Well of Eternity do have a natural arcane heritage, one need only look at their skin color, for example. But I do think Elune has no direct connection to the OTHER magic-wielding races, such as the Thalassian elves and possibly even the nightborne (who likely rejected Elune).

    Do you think something could be done about Nazjatar, perhaps it is raised to the surface or something, like what happened with other places in the past? Perhaps the night elves and nightborne (and even the blood and void elves) both want to reclaim it as their capital or something, especially as Azshara is gone, and most of her surviving followers are severely weakened?

    .
    Very well said. Though the Nightborne aren't recorded as having rejected Elune, and feel connected to all parts of their heritage, incl her they are so proud of. I would even guess to say they would be excited to connect with her now they know the priesthood survived, And this has nothing to do with night elves being on the alliance, it's a night elven thing, not a faction thing. They can still be friends with blood elves and some of them reconnect with Elune. It fits the tone.

    The connection with the arcane is complex, but it's so deeply tied in when you look at the origin story, and the evidence they give for the night elves in both the druid and priest class. The information is there, it's just not striaghtforward. This is what is compelling to us bout the night elves, you have to look for the information and understand it.. for it all to make sense, it's engaging.


    As for pursuing Nazjatar, I don't think any of the Thalassian elves would be interested, they moved on (more on that later). Nightborne have way better than that, but they'd need a reason to want to.. So it's possible. Void elves might be very interested in the void energies, both from the perspective of better understanding (with the purpose of defeating) further void incursions and addressing the issue as well as utilising the power more constructively.

    This can line up with the night elves, especially Highborne, Moon Priestesses and other kaldorei ancients wanting to restore or rally.

    Quote Originally Posted by OwenBurton View Post

    For the Horde:
    1. Lor'themar and Thalyssra are stronger than ever in their unity, their peoples have joined forces.
    2. The blood elves and nightborne want to reclaim Nazjatar to make sure that they establish a center Highborne power base and center of magic, completing the set, so to speak, along with Quel'Thalas and Suramar, and they might have much to uncover and research in the city now that Azshara is gone. Quel'Thalas, Suramar and Zin-Azshari, the three ancient cities, united and linked once again...that would be pretty impressive.
    .
    I really don't like the derivative elves having the birth place of the night elves, it's like they're just taking over a significant piece of the kaldorei, edging them out of something that is fundamental to who they are and forged them today. It's not like they are devoid of Elune, nature or the arcane, their civilziation etc, it's still there. Arcane practice may not dominate them, but the arcane is still there, and some groups live by it, but there are also all the other parts of them tied to that, and it feels like - oh, this ithe pretty side of the night of the elves, civilziation, let's give it to other elves so they never have theirs. More importantly the other elves (the Thalassians mainly esp the blood elves have long since moved away from that heritage.

    In the minds of fans, they want to link this to the blood elves because of the arcane prevalence ... but they base that on the bad assumptions the night elves and the arcane are mutually exclusive.. which isn't true at all.

    Furthermore, this is the birth place of the night elves, it is the place they dwelt for thousands of years. Just because the end of the pre-sundering era was marred and the Darnassians had to move away from spell casting doesn't negate everything. It only negates the reckless arrogance and addiction Azshara fell to.

    But the Order of Elune, first contact with Elune, origin and development all happen there. Cenarius first meets the night elves in the surrounding forests there. Although currently in ruins it is their most holy site. IT also means everything to them.

    Why should blood elves 9who already have Silvermoon) have a new capital or city there? Or Nightborne (who already have Suramar - the original home of most of the Darnassians - get that too?).

    I think the Thalassian blood elves and nightborne already have alot. I'd be looking for places for the night elves and high elves who really are the original versions of the nightborne and blood elves and establishing them properly.

    I hate the constant dissociation of the night elves from the good qualities of their past. Night elves hate their arrogance and the addiction that followed, they don't hate the great

    Surely the best use for Nazjatar, is the restoration of Elundris (the previous name of the city before Zin'Azshari) and it be a symbol of the restoration and harmonious unity of the elves operating in al their orders.

    Thing is THalassian elves have moved on, they rejected their kaldorei heritage, did their own thing. And while still obviously elves and having many things in common - they are not tied to that past any longer - wouldn't want to lay claims to it nor would they have a right over the actual night elves, some of whom have been alive a very long time.

    Should they decide they want to reconnect with their heritage then that's a different story.

    The Nightborne on the other hand, ar ejust another community of night eles slightly biologically altered like every sub-race/allied race. THey actually have claim, but, the Nightborne embody only a part of the kaldorei whole, and are culturally based on the state of the night elves at the very tail end of the pre-sundering civilization amongst the arcane elites. They are totally missing the preisthood which was a huge part of Zin'Azshari throughout till the very end (nevermind their HQ moved to SUrmar, they still had a presence in the city and all the society was intertwined with the priesthood. Nightborne are also missing the druids and nature ancients and elements which had a much larger role in the earlier development of the city and the race.

    So while Nightborne have no need to justify a claim or right to Zin Azshari, it would be secondary to the night elven main group as they are the original that have the deepest connections to it, and relate the most to all its history.
    Last edited by Mace; 2021-10-05 at 02:58 PM.

  2. #322
    Quote Originally Posted by Terrorthatflapsinthenight View Post
    I'm of the opinion that Maiev (during Wolfheart, which was later dropped and she rejoined as if everything was fine without any explanation) and Fandral Staghelm shouldn't have been made antagonists and that while staying jerks and ideological opponents to Malfurion and Tyrande, they should have always remained loyal to their people and that their ruthless methods should have really been for the good of their people instead of becoming villains for their own selfish and petty reasons with making Maiev goes on a crazy crusade against Highborne and Malfurion and of Fandral betraying his people to serve Xavius and later Ragnaros.

    It would have been more interesting if they stayed as political opponents, and incarnated the Kaldorei's traditionnal and ruthless sides, such as the distrust of the Highborne, High/Blood Elves and aggresive response to the Horde's incursions in their lands, with Fandral creating the Druids of the flamme as a new mean to strengthen his people and respond to the Old Gods' minions' threats and to the Horde aggression.
    The problem. Is when the transitions aren’t properly explained.

    Maiev has a turning point in Legion. Her arcane hatred allows AU Guldan to succeed and trigger the events we see if you listen to the audiobook.

    Maiev then does the unthinkable for her, work with a magic user. It is clear there is a turn around at last. She then frees demon hunters.

    the story is shown rather than described. You have to figure out the how to get an explanation in a novel.

    Night elves always had both a ruthless side and benevolent one.

    The problem is for much of wow the ruthless side, that needed to show up in the wars were just neglected to presumably make the horde look good.

    Players want to see night elves win like in WC3 ultimately and have that hardcore side show up.

    it does in Legion tho, the Illidari, the Wardens, even druids are pretty hardcore - the cat Druid in vsl’sharah. So is Darondis, the Moonguard and the Nightbirne.

    but it won’t erase 15 years of looking lame for that they need more of those. hardcore displays happening all the time. And not just in Tyrande, Illidan, Malfurion and Azshara
    Valewalker Farodin: "Magic has long been a vice of the elves. It shaped us, and lifted us out of the darkness - but without balance, it also threatens to unmake us."

    My long replies often repeat info to make sure: You get all the info I have, It is clear and complete, in case you didn't actually read the first one. New readers have context at hand and are reminded of the point

  3. #323
    Quote Originally Posted by Terrorthatflapsinthenight View Post
    I'm of the opinion that Maiev (during Wolfheart, which was later dropped and she rejoined as if everything was fine without any explanation) and Fandral Staghelm shouldn't have been made antagonists and that while staying jerks and ideological opponents to Malfurion and Tyrande, they should have always remained loyal to their people and that their ruthless methods should have really been for the good of their people instead of becoming villains for their own selfish and petty reasons with making Maiev goes on a crazy crusade against Highborne and Malfurion and of Fandral betraying his people to serve Xavius and later Ragnaros.

    It would have been more interesting if they stayed as political opponents, and incarnated the Kaldorei's traditionnal and ruthless sides, such as the distrust of the Highborne, High/Blood Elves and aggresive response to the Horde's incursions in their lands, with Fandral creating the Druids of the flamme as a new mean to strengthen his people and respond to the Old Gods' minions' threats and to the Horde aggression.
    Fandral would have tried to slaughter Sylvanas (and perhaps her people) after Teldrassil was burned down - it was HIS personal and most cherished creation after all. Just imagine, if he suddenly returned infused with his fire elemental powers (or had survived and been made sane again after the Cataclysm) and tried to incinerate Sylvanas during the war, launching a massive all-devouring firestorm the instant he lays eyes upon her.

    The Druids of the Flame would have been an interesting night elf group - if some of them joined their people formally. And perhaps they could add a tauren equivalent for faction balance? We already have a flaming draenei, right?
    "Always you speak. Never do you listen! You ignore the lessons of Pandaria! You see, there is balance in all things. Wisdom etched in our very fur: Black and white. Darkness and light. When the last emperor hid our land from the rest of the world, he also preserved...our ancient enemy, the mantid. So it is with your Alliance and your Horde. They are not strong despite one another; they are strong BECAUSE of one another. You mistake your greatest strength for weakness. Do you see this?"

  4. #324
    I wish they had real Nightborne faces

  5. #325
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    I'm not sure you understand what being part of the "pantheon of life" means, and cosmic forces from the perspective of a divine super powerful being versus a mortal that handles different magics.
    you're right, I suppose nothing prevents a deity from one pantheon from using the powers of another, maybe sire denathrius can use nature and xera can use fel

  6. #326

  7. #327
    Quote Originally Posted by irresistable View Post
    nightborne are a lore lol
    I happen to quite like nightborne. And was the biggest advocate for them being playable as Nightborne instead of night elves.

    I loved night elves having a sun race a lot more closely related to them than high elves.

    But then I loved high elves getting sun races of their own when we had darkfallen, fel elves etc, night elves seemed a bit left out. I still hope for night elf Worgen to have a different night elf appearance and Cenarius to be playable. That would complete the set

    Night elf, Nightborne, Naga Nelf, worgen Nelf and Cenarion.

  8. #328
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post
    Anyone remembers the wod alpha datamined night elf model?



    Things sure look already better from the start this time around...
    I'll just throw my lot in here! I freakkin' want my proper nelf female model back... Seriously!

    I want my feral/cat like eyes back, the proud posture, wiry, muscular body, breathing anmimation on the chest, animated arms(in idle), youthful facial features, to name just a few

    The new model has got nothing in common with the old one apart from eyes without pupils and pointy ears.

    To illustrate what I'm talking about: the comparison videos I made in WoD Beta:



  9. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    you're right, I suppose nothing prevents a deity from one pantheon from using the powers of another, maybe sire denathrius can use nature and xera can use fel
    Indeed, and the Winter Queen certainly isn't limited to "death" magic nor the pantheon life means they can all cast nature magic. Life and death here is more in relation to what side of existence you are on - think of it as the realm of the living and the realm of the dead. She is a "God" pantheon in the realm of the living - i.e life pantheon. Not that you do nature magic. Perhaps you found it easy to make the association with Elune because you view the night elves primarily as nature eves. But remember she is a goddess, and Azeroth/Night elves are not the only races nor planets that worship her. Remember they knew Elune before they met Cenarius.. The Well of Eternity and Elune came first, then the teachings for Cenarius.. whiles they grew in Cenarius' teachings, arcane exploits started taking off as large sections of the populace wanted more than just forest musing.

    Notice they didn't want to replace nature or substitute, they still wanted it, they just yearned for more.. of course they would they are made from the arcane, and had been studying the well, , nature would never be the only thing they're limited to. We've never seen Elune spells related to nature magic either -which should tell you a lot, arcane, light, void yes. But being a goddess she is likely able to use the full spectrum. The Titans are lesser beings, and considered the arcane pantheon of sorts, yet we know they operate in nature magic, light magic too at increidble levels.

    Ravenmoon made a point a while ago in one of our discussions (which he probably shared about on here, or maybe I did), that nature is a derivative of order.. it certainly seems so, they compliment each other well, and the arcane always boosts nature, furthermore, life emerges from the well of eternity, and the arcane is the building blocks of all matter (this is mentioned several times) but more volatile and difficult to handle as icompared to easier to grasp and more sablislied nature 9which makes snese - is manipulating atoms easier than growing plants and using fertiliser and other technique? which concepts are easier to grasp? farming or quantum physics?). What the arcane does is a necessary component to life. So it seems like nature is a fusion of arcane and light, but it's on thing and connected. that has nothing to do with Elune being a life pantheon.. it just means she's part of the pantheon of gods in the realm of the living.. but sadly now fans, associating night elves constantly only with nature (thanks blizz for not properly clarifying the race in-game , though you did it well in lore - most of the fans don't read the books or the lore if it's not their fave race), sadly means they are not interpreting Elune as some nature goddess, despite no previous evidence given.

    All we know about Elune is that she is part of the Order of Creation in the Life half existence, that holds it together, she could literally channel every cosmic power out there as her dominion is in the realm of the "Living"

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Eggroll View Post
    I'll just throw my lot in here! I freaking' want my proper nelf female model back... Seriously!

    I want my feral/cat like eyes back, the proud posture, wiry, muscular body, breathing animation on the chest, animated arms(in idle), youthful facial features, to name just a few

    The new model has got nothing in common with the old one apart from eyes without pupils and pointy ears.

    To illustrate what I'm talking about: the comparison videos I made in WoD Beta:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1rB5wfpLI4
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aUnM56cYow
    Brings back memories. It also highlights how similar the night elf and nightborne old models are, the night elf eyes are far narrower, the poise better. They uglified them further in 6.0, and part of me is very annoyed at them for doing that..I was thoroughly expecting the opposite. Clearly, the elf love again went to the Thalassian elf (when I saw the blood elf new model), when it should have gone to the night elf - who really needed it.

    @OwenBurton and @Terrorthatflapsinthenight and off coures @ravenmoon - thanks for keeping the night elf side of the topic going. Lots of blood elf fans on here, so it's nice to see night elf fans get engaged, lest people think only the horde fans view matters. Let's continue the discussion on all things Elune, arcane, nature, wardens, illidari etc etc. new nightelf home, how the race should be developed, our views on it etc.
    Last edited by Mace; 2021-10-07 at 12:37 PM.

  10. #330
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Indeed, and the Winter Queen certainly isn't limited to "death" magic nor the pantheon life means they can all cast nature magic. Life and death here is more in relation to what side of existence you are on - think of it as the realm of the living and the realm of the dead. She is a "God" pantheon in the realm of the living - i.e life pantheon. Not that you do nature magic. Perhaps you found it easy to make the association with Elune because you view the night elves primarily as nature eves. But remember she is a goddess, and Azeroth/Night elves are not the only races nor planets that worship her. Remember they knew Elune before they met Cenarius.. The Well of Eternity and Elune came first, then the teachings for Cenarius.. whiles they grew in Cenarius' teachings, arcane exploits started taking off as large sections of the populace wanted more than just forest musing.

    Notice they didn't want to replace nature or substitute, they still wanted it, they just yearned for more.. of course they would they are made from the arcane, and had been studying the well, , nature would never be the only thing they're limited to. We've never seen Elune spells related to nature magic either -which should tell you a lot, arcane, light, void yes. But being a goddess she is likely able to use the full spectrum. The Titans are lesser beings, and considered the arcane pantheon of sorts, yet we know they operate in nature magic, light magic too at increidble levels.

    Ravenmoon made a point a while ago in one of our discussions (which he probably shared about on here, or maybe I did), that nature is a derivative of order.. it certainly seems so, they compliment each other well, and the arcane always boosts nature, furthermore, life emerges from the well of eternity, and the arcane is the building blocks of all matter (this is mentioned several times) but more volatile and difficult to handle as icompared to easier to grasp and more sablislied nature 9which makes snese - is manipulating atoms easier than growing plants and using fertiliser and other technique? which concepts are easier to grasp? farming or quantum physics?). What the arcane does is a necessary component to life. So it seems like nature is a fusion of arcane and light, but it's on thing and connected. that has nothing to do with Elune being a life pantheon.. it just means she's part of the pantheon of gods in the realm of the living.. but sadly now fans, associating night elves constantly only with nature (thanks blizz for not properly clarifying the race in-game , though you did it well in lore - most of the fans don't read the books or the lore if it's not their fave race), sadly means they are not interpreting Elune as some nature goddess, despite no previous evidence given.

    All we know about Elune is that she is part of the Order of Creation in the Life half existence, that holds it together, she could literally channel every cosmic power out there as her dominion is in the realm of the "Living"

    - - - Updated - - -



    Brings back memories. It also highlights how similar the night elf and nightborne old models are, the night elf eyes are far narrower, the poise better. They uglified them further in 6.0, and part of me is very annoyed at them for doing that..I was thoroughly expecting the opposite. Clearly, the elf love again went to the Thalassian elf (when I saw the blood elf new model), when it should have gone to the night elf - who really needed it.

    @OwenBurton and @Terrorthatflapsinthenight and off coures @ravenmoon - thanks for keeping the night elf side of the topic going. Lots of blood elf fans on here, so it's nice to see night elf fans get engaged, lest people think only the horde fans view matters. Let's continue the discussion on all things Elune, arcane, nature, wardens, illidari etc etc. new nightelf home, how the race should be developed, our views on it etc.
    nature is part of life and life is related to death. elune is the sister of winter queen not amanthul.
    all cosmic forces are necessary to create the universe. you can create life with void, you can create undead with light.

  11. #331
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    nature is part of life and life is related to death. elune is the sister of winter queen not amanthul.
    all cosmic forces are necessary to create the universe. you can create life with void, you can create undead with light.
    Hmm, clearly not getting it.

    Might be because you use a translator.. we don't say the "living pantheon" we could, but it sounds weird. A better descriptive noun to use might be the "alive pantheon" or rephrase to say the pantheon of the living.. as in those that are in the living realm. It's quicker to say the "life Pantheon" because we already introduced the Death pantheon, and you should have already grasped that the Death pantheon does not mean a Pantheon of "death magic" users, it means a pantheon of gods that order the other side of life, the afterlife we call death - the afterlife pantheon would be weird too, and to say the shadowlands pantheon would be like saying the greatbeyond pantheon either, seeing the twisting nether and other realms like void are part of the Life or alive realm, that isn't what they are trying to convey.. they are gods of The Shadowlands, just like Elune is a god of the universe or great beyond.. but the afterlife i.e. death is more than defiend by land or the shadow lands, just like the realm of the living is more than the universe or expansion of space as we define it.

    In that world of death, or the after life or the death realm, you also have beings that use all the cosmic forces, it has a different system they show you in shadowlands, but people there use arcane magic, light, elemental etc fel.

    What magic does the winter queen use? Does every member of the death pantheon use death magic exclusively?

    Just because it says life and death pantheon, it's not talking about the cosmic powers here, the meaning of life and death is to mean alive or dead.

    Elune being part of the Life pantheon does not mean she is a nature goddess. Primarily foucsed on nature. Look at the evidence, and try to see beyond your pre-conceptions.

  12. #332
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Hmm, clearly not getting it.

    Might be because you use a translator.. we don't say the "living pantheon" we could, but it sounds weird. A better descriptive noun to use might be the "alive pantheon" or rephrase to say the pantheon of the living.. as in those that are in the living realm. It's quicker to say the "life Pantheon" because we already introduced the Death pantheon, and you should have already grasped that the Death pantheon does not mean a Pantheon of "death magic" users, it means a pantheon of gods that order the other side of life, the afterlife we call death - the afterlife pantheon would be weird too, and to say the shadowlands pantheon would be like saying the greatbeyond pantheon either, seeing the twisting nether and other realms like void are part of the Life or alive realm, that isn't what they are trying to convey.. they are gods of The Shadowlands, just like Elune is a god of the universe or great beyond.. but the afterlife i.e. death is more than defiend by land or the shadow lands, just like the realm of the living is more than the universe or expansion of space as we define it.

    In that world of death, or the after life or the death realm, you also have beings that use all the cosmic forces, it has a different system they show you in shadowlands, but people there use arcane magic, light, elemental etc fel.

    What magic does the winter queen use? Does every member of the death pantheon use death magic exclusively?

    Just because it says life and death pantheon, it's not talking about the cosmic powers here, the meaning of life and death is to mean alive or dead.

    Elune being part of the Life pantheon does not mean she is a nature goddess. Primarily foucsed on nature. Look at the evidence, and try to see beyond your pre-conceptions.
    Maybe I expressed myself badly, I spoke of life as a cosmic force instead of saying the cosmic force of life. and it is obvious that nature is part of the cosmic force of life. and we know that elune is a deity of life and her lover is a wild god.

    in wow Grimoire of the Shadowlands deities of life are called the pantheon of life
    and I accept it elune maybe can use other comic powers like void, maybe sire denathrius can use fel or xera can use arcane. everything is possible I suppose.
    Last edited by Rhlor; 2021-10-07 at 09:37 PM.

  13. #333
    Nightborne make faces lost the horrible scowl. Gosh I wish they altered night elf fsces to look more appealing.

    Still loving the latest changes. Actually able to make a few decently attractive Nightborne males.



    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    Maybe I expressed myself badly, I spoke of life as a cosmic force instead of saying the cosmic force of life. and it is obvious that nature is part of the cosmic force of life. and we know that elune is a deity of life and her lover is a wild god.

    in wow Grimoire of the Shadowlands deities of life are called the pantheon of life
    and I accept it elune maybe can use other comic powers like void, maybe sire denathrius can use fel or xera can use arcane. everything is possible I suppose.
    I think you are confusing comic powers with what blizzard means by Pantheon of Lufe and Desth.

    I think you do this because the Titans are referred to a pantheon of order so you think they are going to each of the cosmic powers and a pantheon exists.

    The trolls worship a pantheon of gods, Loa. That word is used to refer different types of things.

    Elune is not part of a pantheon of a cosmic power.
    She is part of a pantheon that governs the “alive” existence called life as in alive, not as i. The cosmic power life.
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2021-10-07 at 09:46 PM.
    Valewalker Farodin: "Magic has long been a vice of the elves. It shaped us, and lifted us out of the darkness - but without balance, it also threatens to unmake us."

    My long replies often repeat info to make sure: You get all the info I have, It is clear and complete, in case you didn't actually read the first one. New readers have context at hand and are reminded of the point

  14. #334
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Nightborne make faces lost the horrible scowl. Gosh I wish they altered night elf fsces to look more appealing.

    Still loving the latest changes. Actually able to make a few decently attractive Nightborne males.




    I think you are confusing comic powers with what blizzard means by Pantheon of Lufe and Desth.

    I think you do this because the Titans are referred to a pantheon of order so you think they are going to each of the cosmic powers and a pantheon exists.

    The trolls worship a pantheon of gods, Loa. That word is used to refer different types of things.

    Elune is not part of a pantheon of a cosmic power.
    She is part of a pantheon that governs the “alive” existence called life as in alive, not as i. The cosmic power life.
    elune and winter queen are counterparts of the pantheon of life and the pantheon of death, they are deities of those cosmic forces and are unity in that cosmic cycle.

  15. #335
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    elune and winter queen are counterparts of the pantheon of life and the pantheon of death, they are deities of those cosmic forces and are unity in that cosmic cycle.
    Everything you quoted is correct

    everything you said except the first part of last line is right, but you still not understanding.

    They are not “deities of cosmic forces” you just said but blizzard didn’t because you’ve misunderstood the words they’ve used and confused cosmic forces in their context with cosmic magical powers, .

    Deities and great powerful beings like Elune and the lesser Titans can use multiple cosmic magical forces (powers) and employ cosmic forces which is referring to something else.

    The context of the description and name is given often helps you understand which version of the word is being used. Translators don’t always distinguish.

    You are confusing cosmic forces and cosmic powers, when they aren’t necessarily the same butncinfusingly sometimes are - context. Helps you understand what they mean. If you have understanding. When we saying arcane, nature magic, fel magic etc, those are cosmic powers.

    Cosmic forces are powerful super mega forces that can create galaxies, stars and realms move phenomenal things and aren’t referring to cosmic powers. Altho cosmic powers can be employed in the forces they use.

    Again. We are asking you to look at the magic powers they use. As mace pointed out to you when was death magic used by the winter queen and her fellow pantheons? And are they limited to that?

    You are confusing what blizzard means by Pantheon of Life and death with life and death magic. They are not gods if lufe and death magic. They are much bigger than that and aren’t limited to one cosmic force.

    it’s ridiculous to think we can manipulate several types of magic but beings far more
    powerful who create existence only dominate one.

    Life and death are an aspect of existence - this die of life and the after life also death.

    we also name a cosmic power that is life focused and death focused. But all the cosmic powers exist both in life and in death

    Being a pantheon of death does not mean you are the god of death magic, it means you are god of the realm of death, the afterlife and can use whatever cosmic powers blizzard decide to give you in combat.
    and this is not the same as cosmic force used in the context of the winter queen’s description you quoted.

    I know it’s harder if English isn’t your first language. But try to understand this is partly because sometimes fantasy universes create new things they have to use pre defined words to help describe but aren’t always a strict interpretation. Which is why context is given when they define something so we know what they actually are meaning to say
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2021-10-08 at 08:13 AM.
    Valewalker Farodin: "Magic has long been a vice of the elves. It shaped us, and lifted us out of the darkness - but without balance, it also threatens to unmake us."

    My long replies often repeat info to make sure: You get all the info I have, It is clear and complete, in case you didn't actually read the first one. New readers have context at hand and are reminded of the point

  16. #336
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Everything you quoted is correct

    everything you said except the first part of last line is right, but you still not understanding.

    They are not “deities of cosmic forces” you just said but blizzard didn’t because you’ve misunderstood the words they’ve used and confused cosmic forces in their context with cosmic magical powers, .

    Deities and great powerful beings like Elune and the lesser Titans can use multiple cosmic magical forces (powers) and employ cosmic forces which is referring to something else.

    The context of the description and name is given often helps you understand which version of the word is being used. Translators don’t always distinguish.

    You are confusing cosmic forces and cosmic powers, when they aren’t necessarily the same butncinfusingly sometimes are - context. Helps you understand what they mean. If you have understanding. When we saying arcane, nature magic, fel magic etc, those are cosmic powers.

    Cosmic forces are powerful super mega forces that can create galaxies, stars and realms move phenomenal things and aren’t referring to cosmic powers. Altho cosmic powers can be employed in the forces they use.

    Again. We are asking you to look at the magic powers they use. As mace pointed out to you when was death magic used by the winter queen and her fellow pantheons? And are they limited to that?

    You are confusing what blizzard means by Pantheon of Life and death with life and death magic. They are not gods if lufe and death magic. They are much bigger than that and aren’t limited to one cosmic force.

    it’s ridiculous to think we can manipulate several types of magic but beings far more
    powerful who create existence only dominate one.

    Life and death are an aspect of existence - this die of life and the after life also death.

    we also name a cosmic power that is life focused and death focused. But all the cosmic powers exist both in life and in death

    Being a pantheon of death does not mean you are the god of death magic, it means you are god of the realm of death, the afterlife and can use whatever cosmic powers blizzard decide to give you in combat.
    and this is not the same as cosmic force used in the context of the winter queen’s description you quoted.

    I know it’s harder if English isn’t your first language. But try to understand this is partly because sometimes fantasy universes create new things they have to use pre defined words to help describe but aren’t always a strict interpretation. Which is why context is given when they define something so we know what they actually are meaning to say
    what I am saying is that elune belongs to the pantheon of life just like winter queen belongs to the pantheon of death, they are linked in an endless cycle.

    and I accept that it is possible that elune can use fel or that amanthul can use void or that xera can use arcane.

  17. #337
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    what I am saying is that elune belongs to the pantheon of life just like winter queen belongs to the pantheon of death, they are linked in an endless cycle.

    and I accept that it is possible that elune can use fel or that amanthul can use void or that xera can use arcane.
    What you are saying isn’t wrong. I had this conversation with Ravenmoon where I pointed out what blizzard meant for Pantheon of life and death.


    He came round because it makes the most sense.

    Elune is part of the pantheon of Lufe, but what you and some fans mistakenly think is that this means she is a nature magic goddess.

    This happens because parts of the community are conflating cosmic powers and beings while not taking what we are told at face value.

    In this situation Pantheon of Life means A Pantheon of gods over the realm of the living those who are alive in life (not a pantheon of nature gods over nature magic).

    Pantheon of Death means a Pantheon of gods over the after life - realm of the dead. It doesn’t mean a pantheon of Death magic gods

  18. #338
    well she has sex with a wild god I guess she has something to do with nature :P
    but I understand that maybe I thought very quickly I accept that maybe there are deities that belong to a pantheon that use powers of different cosmic forces, we don't know much about elune, I suppose that in the future we will know more about her.

  19. #339
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    well she has sex with a wild god I guess she has something to do with nature :P
    but I understand that maybe I thought very quickly I accept that maybe there are deities that belong to a pantheon that use powers of different cosmic forces, we don't know much about elune, I suppose that in the future we will know more about her.
    Dear oh dear. I don’t think the imagery is sex. But then I don’t know.

    as to what cosmic powers Elune uses. Look at the representation.

    via the night elves it’s almost always arcane. When Tyrande becomes an avatar in the latest cinematic, Jer body glows with arcane stars.

    the stars, arcane it’s a main feature.

    we also see Elune use light. In WotA, the impenetrable bubble, prob the inspiration behind the spell given to paladins in wow, is first mentioned via Tyrande who’s shielding no one, not even Sargeras could
    penetrate.

    void. When the night warrior ritual is invoked. Elune ‘a ruthless phase, it is arcane and void that Tyrande is empowered to use.

    So we know Elune definitely commands arcane, light and void.

    I will hazard she can command every cosmic power and all the pantheon in the living realm can.

    they are not defined or sectioned into cosmic powers but likely domains like the Death pantheon in Shadowlands

    - - - Updated - - -

    I think the arcane denial and misunderstanding of the night elves and what their relation and interaction with the arcane in the minds of fans is what is causing confusion.

    The arcane is a magical and cosmic power. The night elves are very connected to it.

    Wielding the arcane is a craft. Your race doesn’t necesssarily have to be connected to arcane magic for you to learn how to wield it.

    Similarly your race can be CER connected to arcane magic and you or a portion of it refuse to wield it via craft (which is what the Long vigil faction of night elves did during that era)

    Now that era is over, druids and priests are using their arcane spells, but they don’t study the arcane like mages, but they tap in. Night elf mages have returned or reunited with the Darnassian groups too.

    People think because arcane magic was banned. Arcane the cosmic force /power was banned. It wasn’t. It never was. You can’t ban a cosmic force. Evidence - the night elves had the Well of Eternity and created many smaller Moonwells from it. - they were using the arcane energy and flooded with it.

    They banned using arcane magecraft. The craft of manipulating the arcane via spell work.


    There is no conflict with Elune’s power being mostly arcane or night elven Druidism focused on the balance between nature and arcane just because of the long vigil ban.

    we need to understand the night elf history to understand why this isn’t a conflict.
    Valewalker Farodin: "Magic has long been a vice of the elves. It shaped us, and lifted us out of the darkness - but without balance, it also threatens to unmake us."

    My long replies often repeat info to make sure: You get all the info I have, It is clear and complete, in case you didn't actually read the first one. New readers have context at hand and are reminded of the point

  20. #340
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Dear oh dear. I don’t think the imagery is sex. But then I don’t know.

    .
    hahaha

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