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  1. #361
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    Is their any point in Blood Elves taking up Druidism? No, probably not. Why? Because not even nature magic can undo the timelocking spell that has been over Quel'Thalas for 7000+ years.
    But isn't it about time they let all races be all classes? Race-Specific Classes was only a thing in the 1st Edition of Dungeons & Dragons, so its a pretty old-fashioned RPG thing. And considering how Multicultural both factions are there shouldn't be any reason a character can't pursue any vocation they want. The biggest reason against it is it would take substantial art assets to make forms & chargers & totems for each of the races: But I'd be happy if they do that for an expansion & market that as one of the features.

  2. #362
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    But isn't it about time they let all races be all classes? Race-Specific Classes was only a thing in the 1st Edition of Dungeons & Dragons, so its a pretty old-fashioned RPG thing. And considering how Multicultural both factions are there shouldn't be any reason a character can't pursue any vocation they want. The biggest reason against it is it would take substantial art assets to make forms & chargers & totems for each of the races: But I'd be happy if they do that for an expansion & market that as one of the features.
    The biggest issue is people have these grand ideas about Night Elf Warlocks, Blood Elf Druids, Forsaken Shamans etc - but this is Blizzard.
    Are they going to create big and in-depth stories for these new race/classes or are they just going to make them servants to other races?

    Night Elf Warlocks simply being mentored by Human and Void Elf Warlocks.
    Blood Elf Druids being mentored by Tauren and Troll Druids
    Forsaken Shamans being mentored by Orcs.

    I'd rather they preserve the staple story for the current race/class combos, than giving more and those stories being crap (for lack of a better word.)

    Having less can be more and be better.
    Last edited by Tanaria; 2021-10-29 at 06:29 PM.

  3. #363
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    I'd rather they preserve the staple story for the current race/class combos, than giving more and those stories being crap (for lack of a better word.)

    Having less can be more and be better.
    Delas Moonfang becoming a Paladin, an interesting story that didn't equate to anything in game: I think it would be better to let trends among players inform the lore: The extremely high popularity of Blood Elves & Draenei necessitated Lightforged & Void Elves. If Forsaken Paladins become extremely popular then let the devs make a Forsaken Paladin Order in the lore. That seems better than imposing restrictions for the sake of "flavor"

  4. #364
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    Delas Moonfang becoming a Paladin, an interesting story that didn't equate to anything in game: I think it would be better to let trends among players inform the lore: The extremely high popularity of Blood Elves & Draenei necessitated Lightforged & Void Elves. If Forsaken Paladins become extremely popular then let the devs make a Forsaken Paladin Order in the lore. That seems better than imposing restrictions for the sake of "flavor"
    But this is the thing - Delas was made and serves the Human-led forces of the Silver Hand, even forsaking Elune in the name of the Light. This story never went further because the telling of it was poor. Essentially, a night elf went Light > Elune. What sort of story is that, other than a slap in the face for Night Elf fans?

    This is what I mean. Night Elf Paladin serves Human-led organisation with Human faith. That's not good for the sake of preserving racial themes.

    I wouldn't want Blood Elf Druids serving the Cenerian Circle, being told how to think and what to do, by Night Elves and Tauren. I'd love a Blood Elf Druidic Enclave, but Blizzard simply won't do it. They'd rather make Blood Elf Druids the former, because it's easier to do.
    This is why I don't want to see Blood Elf lore tarnished with Druids and Shamans, because I won't get my powerful and special Blood Elf Druid and Shaman Enclave. It'll be "Yes Tauren Masters, No Tauren Masters, 3 bags full, Tauren Masters."

  5. #365
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    But this is the thing - Delas was made and serves the Human-led forces of the Silver Hand, even forsaking Elune in the name of the Light.
    I don't remember this happening. Especially when the Religion of the Light is non-theistic & nondenominational. The Light of the Moon is still Light. And she definately wouldn't have forsaken Elune, considering she insisted the Meteorite she made her sword out of was "a gift from Elune"

  6. #366
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    I don't remember this happening. Especially when the Religion of the Light is non-theistic & nondenominational. The Light of the Moon is still Light. And she definately wouldn't have forsaken Elune, considering she insisted the Meteorite she made her sword out of was "a gift from Elune"
    1) She doesn't use a sword. She uses a mace.
    2) She states, "Under the Light, we stand as one."

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4KR9gqEbJQ

    Again - I understand your passionate about every race being every class and everyone getting a nice, lovely story, but the harsh truth is - it won't happen. We're better off preserving what we've got, rather than adding more layers of would would be, utter crap.
    Blizzard are lazy and their story writing team only seem capable of writing for Humans and Sylvanas (which they are doing badly, at this point, so what chances have the rest of us got?)
    Last edited by Tanaria; 2021-10-29 at 08:43 PM.

  7. #367
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    She states, "Under the Light, we stand as one."
    The Questline starts in WoD with her making a sword. Not my fault the Devs checked out at this point: Now you should google how often Priestess of Elune talk about "The Light" & "Elune's Light" because its a lot.

  8. #368
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    The Questline starts in WoD with her making a sword. Not my fault the Devs checked out at this point: Now you should google how often Priestess of Elune talk about "The Light" & "Elune's Light" because its a lot.
    There's nothing, for her, that indicates she's talking about "Elune's Light" when she becomes a Paladin because Paladin lore is established to be those wielders of the Holy Light.

    And it's not my fault that the devs are doing 1 thing right and that is "trying to" preserve what we've got. Remember when Gnome Hunters got added and they had that amazing questline and we got that Gnome Hunter enclave...oh wait, we didn't. They were just baked into an elf hunter settlement and we never heard from them at all, barring one forgettable questline in highmountain.

    Wanting every race to be every class and expecting epic stories and wanting that to be a core feature is very daring. All it will be is bad story, bad representation of the races, most things relate back to Humans - the last one is likely the best we can hope for.

    So, you've never got what you talk about with this "Forsaken Paladin Sector" because you put faith in a lazy company, who only cares for Humans (Anduin and Jaina) and Sylvanas. I'm sure Christie Golden and Steve Danuser would love to just have every expansion where it's only about Anduin, Jaina, Nathanos and Sylvanas.
    Last edited by Tanaria; 2021-10-29 at 09:18 PM.

  9. #369
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    There's nothing, for her, that indicates she's talking about "Elune's Light" when she becomes a Paladin because Paladin lore is established to be those wielders of the Holy Light.

    And it's not my fault that the devs are doing 1 thing right and that is "trying to" preserve what we've got. Remember when Gnome Hunters got added and they had that amazing questline and we got that Gnome Hunter enclave...oh wait, we didn't. They were just baked into an elf hunter settlement and we never heard from them at all, barring one forgettable questline in highmountain.

    So, you've never got what you talk about with this "Forsaken Paladin Sector" because you put faith in a lazy company, who only cares for Humans (Anduin and Jaina) and Sylvanas. I'm sure Christie Golden and Steve Danuser would love to just have every expansion where it's only about Anduin, Jaina, Nathanos and Sylvanas.
    Are you okay?

  10. #370
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    Are you okay?
    I'm fine. Are you?

    Or is it somebody who just doesn't agree with what you want, suddenly has some "issue."

    Can't you take people that have a different opinion than you?
    Last edited by Tanaria; 2021-10-29 at 09:21 PM.

  11. #371
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    But this is the thing - Delas was made and serves the Human-led forces of the Silver Hand, even forsaking Elune in the name of the Light.
    After she trained as paladin, she is still using Seal of Elune, so I wouldn't say she forsake Elune in favor of Light.

    https://www.wowhead.com/mission-abil.../seal-of-elune

    I missed her in Darkshore Warfront though. Quite a shame Blizzard did not expand on her story to learn more of her.

  12. #372
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    There's nothing, for her, that indicates she's talking about "Elune's Light" when she becomes a Paladin because Paladin lore is established to be those wielders of the Holy Light.

    And it's not my fault that the devs are doing 1 thing right and that is "trying to" preserve what we've got. Remember when Gnome Hunters got added and they had that amazing questline and we got that Gnome Hunter enclave...oh wait, we didn't. They were just baked into an elf hunter settlement and we never heard from them at all, barring one forgettable questline in highmountain.

    Wanting every race to be every class and expecting epic stories and wanting that to be a core feature is very daring. All it will be is bad story, bad representation of the races, most things relate back to Humans - the last one is likely the best we can hope for.

    So, you've never got what you talk about with this "Forsaken Paladin Sector" because you put faith in a lazy company, who only cares for Humans (Anduin and Jaina) and Sylvanas. I'm sure Christie Golden and Steve Danuser would love to just have every expansion where it's only about Anduin, Jaina, Nathanos and Sylvanas.
    @Ersula and Tanaria. The thing we also have no indication she ISN’T talking about Elune’s light.

    She could be an Elune light = arcane + holy light combo paladin adapting faith light techniques from the paladins to Elune worship.

    No indication she is changing faith. She is an elf, a highly intelligent racial group that lives very long. She probably studies several religions and finds the holy light an extension of Elune’s light rather than an inanimate power Church of Holy Light people do.

    We really don’t know cos blizzard hasn’t specified or expanded this person nor the intricacies of their faiths.

  13. #373
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaedan View Post
    After she trained as paladin, she is still using Seal of Elune, so I wouldn't say she forsake Elune in favor of Light.

    https://www.wowhead.com/mission-abil.../seal-of-elune

    I missed her in Darkshore Warfront though. Quite a shame Blizzard did not expand on her story to learn more of her.
    Her reception to becoming a Paladin wasn't met under the best of circumstances, from the Night Elf community. I think her character was likely introduced on the back end of Khadgar hinting that Elune created the Naaru. That didn't sit well with the night elf community (or anybody, to be honest - I'm not that much of a night elf fan, but even I wasn't happy about that connection being implied.)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    @Ersula and Tanaria. The thing we also have no indication she ISN’T talking about Elune’s light.

    She could be an Elune light = arcane + holy light combo paladin adapting faith light techniques from the paladins to Elune worship.

    No indication she is changing faith. She is an elf, a highly intelligent racial group that lives very long. She probably studies several religions and finds the holy light an extension of Elune’s light rather than an inanimate power Church of Holy Light people do.

    We really don’t know cos blizzard hasn’t specified or expanded this person nor the intricacies of their faiths.
    Like I say, her arc was likely introduced on the back end of Khadgar's theory of Elune and the Naaru. Now, I'm normally at odds with the night elf fanbase, but in this instance - I do agree with them.

    It was a bad story and the better path to go down, would have been the "Priestess of the Moon" sort of arc, which do serve well as "Night Elf Paladins."

  14. #374
    Herald of the Titans Ardenaso's Avatar
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    once again I'm still adamant that Priestess of the Moon in WC3 are literally just Paladins with bows instead of hammers
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    I make Warcraft 3 Reforged custom models that intends to fill the gaps in the Reforged campaign

  15. #375
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    New customizations are everything I asked for, for sure. Can't wait to make my druid feral and give my rogue some kickass new scars. I particularly appreciate them giving back the "glitched" eye covering look (darker, eyes pierce straight through it. Apparently always intended to be covered by the eye wrappings, but I thought it looked better without them.)

    - - - Updated - - -



    Same opinion here as there: There was lots of development of the night elves this expansion, more than any other, and the "core identity" you harp on about is better represented in the nightborne, which are already playable.
    I agree with you! I was waiting for the new settings, too. Always wanted to add something special to the character.

  16. #376
    Quote Originally Posted by nasikas733 View Post
    I agree with you! I was waiting for the new settings, too. Always wanted to add something special to the character.
    They actually took back out that eye covering since I posted that, so RIP I guess only demon hunters get to look cool. bandages without the eye glow being visible through just isn't the same.
    Quote Originally Posted by DatToffer View Post
    Sylvanas will just give her own head to Tyrande.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  17. #377
    So has nobody updated their Nightborne characters then?

  18. #378
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    So has nobody updated their Nightborne characters then?
    I wait for Legion TW for Nightborne weapons, then I plan to try out new appearances my NB mage can achieve.

  19. #379
    Quote Originally Posted by sighy View Post
    Of course you can't encapsulate the whole comprehensive history of Elves, into a single small paragraph. Obviously.

    The Highborne were a societal caste, which Malfurion and Tyrande had effectively abolished, at latest with the departure of Dath'remar and his followers, which was relatively peaceful, in the stop, leave or we will kill you kind of way. Had the Shen'dralar revealed themselves during the history that followed they likely would have been slaughtered by the northern ruindwellers.
    Yes, and had not just night elves to contend with, but dragons and wild gods, because the accord of no-magic practice was made to prevent the Legion (i.e. world destruction) from happening, not because night elves gained some magic aversion (like some fans on here think) or were trying to not be addicted - (which is sad, people who think that night elf motivation for the ban on pain of death was because of some prejudicial magic casting hate or not to get addicted - just don't think at all, not only does the lore tell us why there was such a severe penalty, which utterly makes sense when most of the advanced /aware world (including dragons and wildgods )believe practice will bring back invading legions), the night elf is a highly intelligent and benevolent being by fundamental nature , that has arcane pre-disposition and nature love - such a being is not going invoke a penalty of death just to avoid addiction nor will they have some irrational prejudicial hate that would result in such a severe penalty (unless a bit crazy like Maiev was or corrupted like Azshara's Naga and the satyr get).. obviously there was a purpose to giving up something that was an integral part of how they lived their lives.. and they considered it worth it.

    Sadly most fans just gloss over this - which is why they are shocked night elves use magic after warcraft 3, and can't understand why all the offensive spells of the Moon priests and half of those of the druids are arcane based - because they think the night elves are some magic hating group based on mis-information or not understanding the information given about them and why there is a ban on practice.

    Most fans don't even get it's a ban on arcane magical practice, they think it's a ban on arcane magic, but totally forget that night elves are connected and protecting a huge arcane well on top of hyjal an d have used it to create many smaller arcane wells called moonwells, meaning they are completely suffused in the stuff, what they aren't doing is using the power to cast spells which is what draws the legion. They aren't banning arcane - you can't ban a primordial force, it's like saying we will ban energy. they only banned the use of the Well of Eternity for casting spells which is what their mage profession relied on entirely - because this was the only way to prevent the Legion from realising magic (which is what the night elves thought the legion wanted from Azeroth) and the only way the night elves believed the Legion could get to Azeroth, still existed on it. Remember the legion is banished when the well is imploded, the night elves feel that the Legion's prize is gone, removing the need for them to return (because they think it's the magic they're after), so without using magic, no one in the twisting nether would be able to sense magic is on Azeroth and if all practice is banned, no one would be tempted to try and summon the legion, and with the Well completely guarded, allowing no sentient being even into Ashenvale (the cut off line for approaching the Well) no one would have the means or know how to bring the Legion back - even if they were some who influenced by the satyr - which is what the kaldorei nation was often pre-occupied iwth until they won that war.


    Quote Originally Posted by sighy View Post
    To the point the Darnassians have departed the old pre WotA ways just as much as any of the other Elves, only in their own way and if anything have made by far the greatest effort to actively distance themselves from that ancient kingdom. As compared to the Thalassians and Shalassians, who have effectively been highly successful sister city states, in terms of their general progression post WoTA, with the differences between them being largely superficial based on their individual fonts of power. It's only very recently that the Darnassians have made literally any effort to rebuild any of the bridges their policies had burned and even then it's dodgy at best.
    I think the focus is wrong here.. they aren't tryign to actively distance themselves from the pre-usndeirn g kingdom... they are in this state because they won't use arcane magic in order to prevent the legion's return which is basically world destruction. THis is a far far far far greater reason forsuch a drastic change of lifestyle than "wanting to distnace themselves from the past" because their Queen got conceited.

    • Think about it.. what was so bad about the past? the great arcane knowledge? No.. that's a good thing.
    • THe great wonders and progress? no that's also good
    • The great cities built by both ancient trees and Highborne? no that was also good
    • The great cultivation of nature -which the lore tells us they also did in the pre-sundering era - no that was also good
    .

    So what exactly was bad about that era? Actually only getting addicted and the arrogance of the Highborne. Think !! You wouldn't mourn the loss of something so deeply if you didn't love it and weren't proud. Nor will you hate your good achievements either.

    So what weren't they proud of? their hubris - the arrogance their kin (especially the druids who were once Highborne would be keenly aware of this). You may hate the Highborne for their role, but that is nothing compared to your hate for the Legion - problem is, in the minds of some fans I've noticed, they think night elves hate arcane magic and Highborne as their ultimate thing which makes no sense , when it's the Legion they hate the most and by far, then, in a self chastistiing way, hate how foolish they behaved (you know when a perosn who's pride has destroyed him reflects back and realises when he thought he was all that, it actually wasn't that important and he wasn't actually "all that".

    But not being proud of your hubris and the folly of your Queen isn't the reason they live this way. The main reason is to prevent the legion returning. It is easier to fight addiction or stop magic for awhile to regain sanity, but not indefinitely. It's not distancing themselves from the pre-sundering civilization past, it's preventing the legion's return.

    Did they want to distance themselves from the past? Not all of it, only the bit, towards the end, where they were conceited enough to allow the legion in. And the fault of that is borne most keenly by former Highborne (now druids or priests) or some highborne still around, but to a lesser extent others who were not arrogant.


    WotA tells us most night elves were arrogant and had lost heir way a bit, due to what we now know is bad leadership from a Queen that had become addicted.

    But the change in lifestyle is because they are banning magic to prevent the legion's return, not because they are distancing themselves from the pre-sundering civilization.. The only thing about that era night elves would hate is the arrogance and addiction they let themselves succumb to. Night elves aren't the only ones that hate that.. the Thalassian high elves, once night elves too themselves, hate that as much, even though eventually they got another type of addiction.. but no where near the problematic mind twisting one that corrupted Azshara.

    The nightborne though addicted(out of necessity to survive) respect magic in a way they didn't around the time of the first invasion. They do continue to use arcane in abusive ways, but this is because they felt it necessary to survive. The druid valewalker, Farodin, makes it quite clear, that the goal is not elimination of magic (which he recognises made the elves, and is a part of them) but balance with magic. This is what the Nightborne need restored. And this is what his order the Valewalker (a combination of Highborne mages and early druids - i.e. night elf nature magic practitioners before the art became known as druidism, but who would late r have become druids when Malfurion advanced the art) were set up to solve.

    Balance is embedded in the druid class to, which we know is made up of many former male Moonguard and Highborne, because of the important of it in preventing addiction and imbalances.. this has nothing to do with the ban on arcane practice by the well, the druid class is nota bout banning magic at all,.. an entire night elf race living in the north, 3 dragonflights and wild gods upheld that ban to prevent the legion returning, not to stop the night elves becoming addicted.. balance will stop addiction, you don't kill someone for practicing magic because you are afraid they will get addicted or you hate your past.

    The point of the night elves was never to be an anti-magic group, the Long vigil ban is just a part of the story, not the reason for their existence. THeyw ere created to be a combination of magic wielding/loving dark elves and nature loving forest elves. In fact the best elements of both these. They were dark elves with a twist.. the twist being they weren't evil (like most DnD dark elves are) and they had a nature forest loving side.

    With this in mind, it is wrong to assume the ban on arcane magic defines the existence and reason for the night elves. It doesn't, it simply informs the backdrop for the awesome story of WC3 and an interesting account for a different group of elves than the high elves we knew, but one that would be developed further down the line. Wc3 was a start for the night elves too in this modern era, not the end . It was the continuation of race, with a new beginning after another world changing event, not the definition of the group.

  20. #380
    Their intent was to avoid drawing the Legion back again, but to pretend like their ban on magic has not been a significant point of divergence from the Highborne remnants and the pre-WotA civilisation, which has openly and heavily relied on said magic is disingenuous. The Darnassians have always been framed as naught but wanting remnants, of a once great empire. They were effectively ruindwelling tribal hunter-gatherers, upon their introduction, which has been retconned to some extent as WoW came along, in order to make them more Aliance, but fundamentally they're defined by a downward spiral of bad decisions and pyrrhic victories. Their ban on the Arcane, whilst well meaning was brutal and they suffered the most for it, in the long run, because it was the magic, which allowed them to beat back the Trolls, it was the magic, which allowed them to build such wonders and it was the magic, which allowed for their high civilisation to rise.

    You yourself have admitted that, at the time teachings of Cenarius and the Priesthood were relatively minor, at least in comparison to the ruling class of magi. (Even tho your absolute statement regarding proto-druids isn't exactly right, because we have examples of many druids being around at the time like the OG worgen, who had embraced Goldrin's fury to fight the demons.)


    Regarding other media they're taking very heavily from Tolkien's elves of the woodland realm(where Legolas is from) and the Warhammer Wood Elves(some cynical people could even point out certain features and characters like Ariel and Orion being uncannily similar to a certain Warcraft power couple), while their similarities to Druchii/Drow are mostly superficial, in terms of geological location and/or skin color respectively, which are largely superficial details.

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