The Night Elves/borne discussion thread

[Ersula]

Regarding other media they're taking very heavily from Tolkien's elves of the woodland realm(where Legolas is from) and the Warhammer Wood Elves(some cynical people could even point out certain features and characters like Ariel and Orion being uncannily similar to a certain Warcraft power couple), while their similarities to Druchii/Drow are mostly superficial, in terms of geological location and/or skin color respectively, which are largely superficial details.

Except WoW draws from D&D lore more than from any other source (magic the gathering is probably their second-most-used inspiration) in fact the Devs repeatedly say they based the Night Elves on Drow, but with their own unique take. For example, making them a matriarchy. That & Shinto-inspired architecture. They just went full Drow when designing the Nightborne, because they envision the Horde as a faction where you get to play as the races designated by D&D as the "enemy" races.

[Alanar]

So has nobody updated their Nightborne characters then?

I did in fact and started leveling her a bit ( old vanilla mage)

Having fun as frost atm, sporting the squinty eyes and mana hands makes it feel so much better. Still not the real deal tho.

[sighy]

I know what it's supposed to be theoretically, but that's a wildly different beast from what their characterisation is(I hope you forgive me for not getting into what i think of said characterisation, because that would be an extensive rant). Save Stormwind it's one of the most overexposed and demystified factions of the whole setting. IF you look at it from the vastly zoomed out overarching perspective then yes there are superficial details making them somewhat similar to the Drow, in some ways. Their overall showings are however much more in line with the Wood Elven archetype regarding the modern Darnassus aligned side of things, which i think is an important distinction to make.


I don't speak of the culture, as a whole, but rather the Darnassian fraction specifically, who got significantly shaped by their anti-magic stigma, which did not get abolished until Cataclysm. They've effectively burned majority of the bridges to that side of the Kaldorei culture a long time ago, in favor of what could be referred to as Amish, for the lack of a better comparison, lifestlye, which has shaped them ever since. Characters much like people are expected to change over time based on their life experiences, ideologies and environments. (To be fair their characterisation struggled for consistency even back in WC3, but back then they were mysterious, maystical and all that so it could be overlooked)

My line of thinking simply is that the Darnassus aligned Night Elves do not encompass the whole of the species or culture, with only very recently taking baby steps to amend the bridges they've burnet over the span of milenia and as Tyrande's baring in Suramar shows, while she may no longer officially enforce the general ban on magic the underlying sentiments, which have lead to it and had it persist for milenia are still present and lead to the Nightborne ultimately siding with the Horde, in part thanks to the stark contrast with Liadrin's conduct.

(As a sidenote i think that Maiev and the Warden's involvement in the War of Thorns/Darkshore Warfront was a mistake, which undermined previous story developments and gave the audience members that actually bothered to go through the extended media a huge whiplash, without a character arc to ease us through the reconciliation of some hateboners.)

[Beloren]

I know what it's supposed to be theoretically, but that's a wildly different beast from what their characterisation is(I hope you forgive me for not getting into what i think of said characterisation, because that would be an extensive rant). Save Stormwind it's one of the most overexposed and demystified factions of the whole setting. IF you look at it from the vastly zoomed out overarching perspective then yes there are superficial details making them somewhat similar to the Drow, in some ways. Their overall showings are however much more in line with the Wood Elven archetype regarding the modern Darnassus aligned side of things, which i think is an important distinction to make.

I think the point he is making is that there is more beyond the immediate in game characterisation. If you factor in the literature, the novels... then you add to it additions like Dire maul, Azsuna, Suramar, Zin'Azhsari and it's ruins - Moonguard, Shen'dralar, Noightborne and Shen'dralar - you are actually seeing a lot of stuff outside the Dolonaar and Asatrannar type settings.

It's painting a wider picture, but because most people have played Wc3 and classic start zones, and played them a lot more than they did the level 60 Dire maul content, or the Cata remake that showed much more night elf breadth, and Legion which basically showed everything, that archetype is far more prevalent in their minds..while his point is that - that was just the starting point in the game for race who's story starts long before you meet them at that point. Difference between them and humans, is that there is a lot of lore and characterisation of their earlier periods (a 3 novel long story for starters).. which when you combine everything, including the developments in warcraft and the introduction of the demon hunters, the highbonre, the spell casters, the Moon priestesses, there is a lot more than the wood elf archetype.


However visually, if you're just stuck in WC3 and classic - that's all you probably see.

I don't speak of the culture, as a whole, but rather the Darnassian fraction specifically, who got significantly shaped by their anti-magic stigma, which did not get abolished until Cataclysm.

@Mace can you call it a stigma? My understanding is that Maiev is the only night elf that has a downright hatred and has likely being the source of any stigma. But the stigma is tied to the legion, not to the arcane and fans often forget that, thinking it's all arcane centred. The reason for the arcane ban is the Legion. Is that what you were essentially saying in the other topic?

Why would night elf priests and druids use arcane spells too when the legion return and since then if the arcane is the stigma? I can understand Highborne would be stigmatised for their role in bringing the legion, even now (at least to some extent) and arcane magic spell casting, at least in the traditional mage sense which is the night elf empire style may have a phobia because of being tied to the Legion during the Long vigil again, (and possible, though to a very minor extent, a phobia because of addiction).

They've effectively burned majority of the bridges to that side of the Kaldorei culture a long time ago, in favor of what could be referred to as Amish, for the lack of a better comparison, lifestlye, which has shaped them ever since. Characters much like people are expected to change over time based on their life experiences, ideologies and environments. (To be fair their characterisation struggled for consistency even back in WC3, but back then they were mysterious, maystical and all that so it could be overlooked)

The story tells us differently, fans may change, but if preventing the Legion's return is the source of this cultural shift, then when the legion does return, it entirely makes sense the state and view of magic and a whole lot of other things from the Long Vigil change. The night elf progression backs this up, because the priest and druids start using arcane spells again, they also work openly and well with arcane using races in humans, Draenei, gnomes - without any issue, furthermore, they also lift their ban on themselves of wielding it, actively promote it for more recruits (after Maiev is exposed and we are told the kaldorei of Darnassus UNANIMOUSLY agreed the lift) they are then seen promoting.

Furthermore in the subsequent years we see it developed, we see arcane night elf units making portals for the alliance, we see a lot of non-Darnassian night elves in Legion and they continue to play roles in both legion (the Azsuna twins, the arcane saber night elf mage), and in BFA ( you saw many night elf mage units with the alliance) and they are mentioned in the WoT as doing the portals rather than fighting, they are in the BFA cinematic as the elven casters next to Anduin.


The point is, while the Darnassians may not be an all consuming arcane society like other night elf groups like the Shen'dralar, Nightborne or Farondis, there is a lot of it - hell cata shows several schools of night elves learning arcane magic, we've never seen that for priests or druids.

these are signs that fans perhaps don't look at because as @Mace said, we just look at the scene overall.. see forests and maybe swtich off on the detail, even visual detail.


I'm saying it's a lot more apparent than many are giving it credit for, and the amount of it is a lot more than some would recognise. It tally's with the story though. Th legion returned, another shift happened to the Darnassians and all you are seeing is a continuous story.?

My line of thinking simply is that the Darnassus aligned Night Elves do not encompass the whole of the species or culture, with only very recently taking baby steps to amend the bridges they've burnet over the span of milenia and as Tyrande's baring in Suramar shows, while she may no longer officially enforce the general ban on magic the underlying sentiments, which have lead to it and had it persist for milenia are still present and lead to the Nightborne ultimately siding with the Horde, in part thanks to the stark contrast with Liadrin's conduct.

I think so too, I think blizzard are showing the journey of a race being fully restored that has more recently seen two extremes of two of it's core sides and now is coming togehter in a balanced way?

Mace was saying in the other post that this was the intetnion anyway and it' s just taken longer because of the delays. This sounds plausible. But the steps have not being so baby. If you think about it, with the war of thorns kililng so many of them, the Darnassian mage highborne group are likely as large as the druids group and the preist group, simply becasue most of them would have survived as they were either with the kirin'tor or working the portals for the evacuation rather than being killed on the front line or by the fire on Teldrassil.

ALso we have to bear in mind, blizzard hasn't explored their society post legion and post WoT properly to reflect how the revelations and changes in both Legion and BFA wars , including the return of Zin'Azshari would affect them and heal them also. What about the effect of the Farondis? Highbrone who were not complicit with the queen and weren't arrogant or abusive with magic either, and they are around not to talk, these are high arcane users that should have no stigma attached too, and should help heal any around. Not to mention addiction has also been cured/solved by Farodin with the nightborne, and revelations that magic isn't what the legion was after, and that hey were searching for Azeroth long before the Queen opened the portal.. the night elves magic iddn't cause the legion to learn about Azeroth, that happened welll before t he night elves were born.. it's a lot.

(As a sidenote i think that Maiev and the Warden's involvement in the War of Thorns/Darkshore Warfront was a mistake, which undermined previous story developments and gave the audience members that actually bothered to go through the extended media a huge whiplash, without a character arc to ease us through the reconciliation of some hateboners.)

It is, but hey, it's a strong female character, so I geuss he gets a pass? Even though they could have used Sira, and actually in Legion wasn't Jarod now the leader of the Wardens... but the switch back came in 7.2, they felt itwa s more iconic to have Maiev chase Illidan around CoEN, but they didn't have to phave her as Warden leader..

it's decisions like that that make us lose faith in their integrity.

[sighy]

ALso we have to bear in mind, blizzard hasn't explored their society post legion and post WoT properly to reflect how the revelations and changes in both Legion and BFA wars , including the return of Zin'Azshari would affect them and heal them also. What about the effect of the Farondis? Highbrone who were not complicit with the queen and weren't arrogant or abusive with magic either, and they are around not to talk, these are high arcane users that should have no stigma attached too, and should help heal any around. Not to mention addiction has also been cured/solved by Farodin with the nightborne, and revelations that magic isn't what the legion was after, and that hey were searching for Azeroth long before the Queen opened the portal.. the night elves magic iddn't cause the legion to learn about Azeroth, that happened welll before t he night elves were born.. it's a lot.

IF BfA properly explored the conflict we'd have had a very different(and likely much better) expansion than what we got, where it was sacrificed to make room for an expansion's worth of barely related cosmic bullshit. There is a lot of people on this forum, who for some reason assume that every Night Elf they see on screen automatically swears fealty to MAlfurion and Tyrande, which is somethign i do admit can color my responses, as i find it almost as annoying as burning of teldrassil whine threads, at this point.

Ultimately? I think you nailed it right on the head:

It is, but hey, it's a strong female character, so I geuss he gets a pass? Even though they could have used Sira, and actually in Legion wasn't Jarod now the leader of the Wardens... but the switch back came in 7.2, they felt itwa s more iconic to have Maiev chase Illidan around CoEN, but they didn't have to phave her as Warden leader..

it's decisions like that that make us lose faith in their integrity.

[Mace]

@Beloren and @sighy

You might find my response to Geco here quite interesting ... just plunged into a lot of detail.

Literally the topic just goes back and forth.
First they tell us that we saved and then almost none of them and then we forget about it again.

This the only story I know that has a serious case of amnesia, and where life defining or race defining events happen, but the race totally forgets that it has happened when you visit them again.

Darnassian Night elves should have changed more significantly in Legion than in Cata when the Highborne returned - but it's as if they never:

Night elf Race Changing Revelations from Legion

1. Realised that Illidan actually never betrayed them (he was always working against the Legion and tried to help them)
2. Suramar actually was still around and what that meant
3. The Cathedral of Eternal Night was back and cleansed and they helped their predecessors and ghost priests trapped down there
4. That magical addiction was finally cured, and it took a combination of druidism and arcane magic.
5. An entire zone of Highborne were still around in an unliving state, not arrogant Highborne that summoned the legion, but the first group to actually defy the Queen and try to stop the Legion before anyone else did - ones that still value Elune and don't dismiss nature - which is perfect for the Darnassians.
6. The Legion was never actually after their magic, but the world soul, the magic was just bonus and a means to get there.
7. The night elves nor their magic, nor their well were not the reason the Legion was after Azeroth, and
8. The Legion were already aware of Azeroth, so the night elves were not the ones who caused the Legion to know of Azeroth's.
9. The Legion were going to return regardless of whether the night elves banned arcane magic or not. The long vigil may have delayed things but the return was inevitable, and the world was not as strong this time round as it was 10,000 years ago - yet they one

6-9 should obliterate any residual stigma's non-arcane night elves amongst civilian

10. The Well of Eternity's re-ignition was not an attempt to bring the legion back by Illidan as they wrongly thought, it was to give them the means to rebuild and be much stronger for an inevitable return, not to hide and suppress arcane magic. Yet, despite all that the Well basically was the source of salvation without using arcane magic spells (even though turns out, the abstinence was un-necessary - I think Thalassians require an apology now). The Well of Eternity nourished Nordrassil and was the source of all the Moonwells. The power of the wisps and the tree used to destroy Archimonde in Wc3 would not have been available without the Well.

This should cos some night elves at least to feel the last 10,000 years of living like druids to have been basically 10,000 years of un-necessary development and progress lost - some will be angry at Malfurion although a break was needed from the arcane for other reasons, and it was good to gain perspective, Darth'remar was right, 3,000 years was more than enough time to mourn.

Conclusion:
The revelations in Legion end 10,040 years the legion threat and the purpose the Darnassian kaldorei had - which was basically to stop the legion returning for the Long vigil period, and even after WC3, still oppose them, but now could also accept arcane magic. While WC3 events meant night elves could come out of isolation in the north, re-establish a civilization and even use magic again, the legion's final end puts an end to the shift that happened after the sundering.

Post-sundering: Purpose of the Darnassians - was Guard the Well of Eternity, prevent anyone from using arcane magic or discovering h ow to use it int he ways that would alert the legion to Azeroth and cause them to return. Hunt down satyr and corrupt beings left over and prevent anyone from discvoering the well by killing any who approached Ashenvale's borders.

[the night elves duties were not to work in the emerald dream to restore it, or keep the balance of nature or restore the destroyed nature - those were the druid class order's duties and druids dedicated their lives to that in a pact with Ysera]

So after Legion, night elves can effectively return totally to their racial objectives before the Legion returned.. instead of war and hunting against monsters, they can start rebuilding their lives.. rebuild their civilizations, societies, grow their families, go back to having knowledge and beauty whether knowledge in the arcane, or knowledge of the goddess or nature knowledge, make beautiful art, music, poetry etc, essentially live again.. this would be the significant change and shift until.. the WoT happens.


WoT and BFA Effects
While they seemed to show the anger of the night elves at what happened quite w ell, we still haven't seen much of how they've changed because.

1. WoT was not as bad as the first Legion invasion's genocide and the sundering. - it makes little sense that the WoT will turn night elves into hateful beings when the first invasion of the Legion and sundering did not.

2. There is a major population rebalance that occurs now. With most of te night elves dead, basically the Highborne order go from being a minority to a substantial number, and:

3. The most skilled night elves in druidism and in the priesthood survive - this means that every remaining night elf around now is a very old and very powerfully skilled individual.

This should make them totally deadly - but all we've seen is Tyrande being badass.

4. While the Night Warrior is cool and all, the night elves are few and need all the power they can have, yet we see no attempts by the Darnassians to harness the power of the Well of Eternity from the mages and the Emerald Dream's power through the World Trees by the druids

The 3 powers of Elune's Night warriors, the Well of Eternity and the Emerald dream should be substantial enough to allow the remaining night elves to successfully defend their lands against any army and rebuild their civilization faster than ever before if employed.

They have the means.


5. The ruins of Zin'Azshari back again and the effect this has especially as a symbol of the origin and birth of the night elves and a restoration is a powerful point not used. Elundris was great, and the achievements in all areas from Elune to magic, to nature were phenomenal. It's here they arose. And while the Queen got corrupted, her defeat is the opportunity to restore and reclaim what was stolen from the night elf people by betrayal. Contrary to what fans think, Zin'Azsahri did not belong to the Highborne, it belonged to all night elves. It was not a symbol of corruption nor decadence,. that was just the lifestyle of the corrupted Highborne at the end (this is not how they were to begin with), rather it was the height of the best of their achievements. It is not their achievements that were evil nor that destroyed them. IT was the Legion, let in by a Queen who got corrupted, and led her court astray.

The night elves are intelligent people, they know it is not the great achievements and the things they did well that was problematic.. it was the Legion and the betrayal of the queen. Self reflection may blame pride and hubris, but at the end of the day it was the Legion, and certainly not being intelilgent, or doing things well, or achieving great things.. it's those things that are mourned and made them so angry.

The fans who think that they hate Elundris (i.e. ZIn'Azshari and anything from the pre-sundering era) are completely wrong. They loved the things they did well, and the reason they hate the legion is because all the good things they did were destroyed, and betrayed by a Queen who felt that it wasn't good enough so let the legion in to destroy it so she could rebuild it even more perfectly - that's just crazy bitch.

We all know Azshara used the work of most of her subjects in secret and credited them to herself, which is not saying she didn't make substantial magical contributions herself, she did, it's just that she made it look like she was the source of nearly all of it and she wasn't.. just like the quest in the ruins of Zin'Azshari showed the work on the snapdragons is effectively stolen by the Queen's guard and Azshara is hinted as the one who takes credit for their creation, so to we know that the Shen'dralar were the ones who processed her request for wonders, her top projects in secret ofc (so the world would think she did it).. why do you thin k Mordant Evenshade talks about how the things of today pale in comparison to the wonders they wrought - he is a Shen'dralar - so we can attribute most of the magical wonder feats from him.

[Beloren]

@Mace

It's comprehensive - but the thing about blizzard is , they constantly change and recast things, like they can't stick to the same story for long, because someone comes up with a new idea they think is cooler or better, and therefore tha'ts now the truth, and the past is either irrelveant or gets recast.


While your points make sense, a simple example is that originally the magics is what they were after, but in the recast, it's the Azeroth world soul.

Still it fits surprisingly well with the change, because it vindicates Illidan completely who we know was not betraying them anyway because the author tells us directly, but they don't know that. the change also allows their terrible guilt to be somewhat assuaged in a way that can be very positive for their development.

But in the same manner, blizzard could pick it and twist it into something worse.

[Mace]

the racial leader blood elf is a farstrider the farstrider are the military forces of quelthalas the military leader of quelthalas is a farstrider.

indeed, yet when last was focus drawn to the Farstriders or explored that side of the Thalassian elves?

about the darnassian they prohibited the use of arcane magic for ten thousand years, it is obvious in their current society arcane magic is something small, approximately ten years ago they again accepted the shendralar that it was not even all of them.

Yet, arcane magic has been an integral part of the night elf story, when Darnasisans banned it, when they lifted the ban, it's actually a substantial chunk of both their literature and the new developments of the night elf that came after classic. For anyone who cares to look, if you compare the amount of screen time and writing time given to night elves and the arcane, nature , Elune and demon hunting, they're actually roughly the same. However because there was such a long gap between classic and continuing the night elf story in cataclysm, coupled by how often people replay WC3 and classic, but don't read the books nor play Cata or Legion as often, in their minds the nature setting is more prevalent. To the extent that the devs have now steered the night elves away from their duality and closer to that singular expression.

According to Wolfheart, all of them accepted them back in the end. Which makes sense if you apply that night elves are both highly intelligent (s o able to see reason beyond their pain or anger) and benevolent (which means they will tend to wards mercy, forgiveness and kindness in general). It was shown that Maiev was the main instigator and source of the resistance against accepting the Highborne. And once it was realised the crazy extent,including murder, she had gone to to prevent them being accepted, the resistance melted away. This is not to say it wasn't difficult for some night eles, just to say that the acceptance happened a lot sooner.

I do not deny that the arcane exists in current Darnassian society, but it is far from having the same importance as the druids that dominate that society

Indeed, correct-ish - you mean arcane spell casting focus and dominant in society like it was in the pre-sundering era. Arcane as a power source is super prevalent - the Well of Eternity, the Moonwells are everywhere, and the arcane is considered sacred, as are those waters by the priesthood and all night elves.

It's just the prevalence of spell casting is much less in the wider community, ,understandably, it's only been a few years since the ban lifted. However amongst the Highborne society and other arcane groups like the Moonguard remnant and Farondis, it is off course, very prevalent..

Night elves will probably be spread out evenly amongst the arcane, nature, Elune and to a lesser extent the Illidari. By nature they will always have very talented people with the arcane, this is how the Highborne caste was born, and the race has that high magic affinity. But the arcane is not the only expression, nature now has developed far beyond where it was in pre-sundering times and is just as appealing to the benevolent sensibilities of the race, so the arcane will never dominate like it did towards the end of Azshara's reign.. why?


Because there is no Azshara to push it to the exclusion of all else (even if another amazing night elf magic user rises to great prominence and respect, I doubt they could achieve the love Azshara did for her people and i doubt Elune loving and nature loving night elves would allow themselves to ever be swept so completely away by an astonishing and charismatic leader (while the night elves in Suramar did with Elisande, you can argue it would have been impossible if they had lived in the after effects of the sundering or had leaders like Tyrande and Malfurion around alongside Elisande), and the wow factor is gone, while they know the arcane does wonders, every night elf will remember what corrupted the queen and the legion.. yet at the same time it's the arcane that gave the night elves to be who they are and it's something they are both good at and love. It may have shone brighter than nature and even Elune to a lot of people during Azshara's reign, but even if it went much further today , it still won't dominate their society..because they now know the value of balance, the value of nature, and the faithfulness of a Goddess they won't abandon.

So there will always be a fair number of night elves going into service of Elune, also a fair number choosing nature, as well as a fair number going to the arcane.. it would be far more balanced this time round and potentially the best and greatest they will ever be. As well as the happiest and most fulfilled. It should make them a complete, whole and robust society, excellent in every area, lacking nothing. They won't need to be world conquerors, but they'd have their space, they'd develop and be advanced, they'd n one would be ale to unseat or destroy them because they're just ahead of everyone else and have gotten it right. They'd also be content with where they are too.. so don't expect conquests from them - it's not their nature. Curiosity and beauty, learning and harmony will motivate them.

In theory, they should be the best out there like this. And if you consider great advancement and harmony to be the greatest things, then they'd be the greatest to you.

I also feel night elves would have a lot drawn to the Illidari, thanks to Illidan and both the revelations he brought in legion that actually vindicate him from being "betrayer" as well as his heroics in ending the Legion. How many night elves pursue that path, is debatable as the story stands, but it could be nearly as substantial as the other fields. The thing is the demon hunter is the toughest of the lot, so it's failure rate would also be high, resulting in less numbers. It lends it self to consuming rage and hatred for demons, whiles the other fields, like arcane, nature and Elune lend themselves to attributes that are natural to the night elf = arcane lends itself to their high intelligence and their natural arcane affinity, nature lends itself to their benevolence and nature love, Elune seems to be the heart of thier identity and existence tied to the stars and the moon and the Well they get fulfilment of those two in her order.. but Demon hunting, that requires intense drive, hatred for demons and an urgency that isn't there now with the demon's dead. So it's hard to see this being as popular, yet night elves have just experienced a genocide event again, so there will be plenty of hatred and a drive to combat injustice and evil and channel that into learning fel and the paths of a demon hunter. For though the horde is to blame, the night elves were in such a weakened state because of the legion. If it weren't for them, then such a massacre would never have been possible - they could spin it that way to create more DHs.


Blood Elves, Darnassians, Night elves and Nightborne - Magical Dominance:

Note that the way the arcane is dominant or prevalent in these society varies and is different in each. don't assume just because they love the arcane, it's the same type of prevalence in night elf societies as it is in blood elven and high elven. High elf society had a far healthier arcane balance than Nightborne society or indeed pre-sundering kaldorei society in the Invasion period - i.e. the addiction era (note that it was also much healthier in pre-sundering society before that period of addiction.

Also, how is also very different. The Sunwell suffused all high elves, but not all dabbled in the arcane, it was more balanced because they did other things, and didn't have the all consuming spell casting focus that was part of night elf culture. You could have no talent in the arcane and not be able to cast a simple spell as a Thalassian, but you were still connected to the Sunwell , meanwhile night elves were taught spell work from early age, alongside reading and writing, whether they had the talent to become mages or elsewhere.

Night elves in Suramar who became Nightborne, literally drunk arcane energy in the specially distilled version of arcwine, this was their main source of sustenance, which si why they are so skinny, and it was this abuse that warped them. you see Nightborne around the Nightwell in the Nighthold (Suramar Palace) literally drunk on the magical energy).. This ofc is just too far. No wonder the curse of the Nightwell happened.

Mate - one of the first quests for the Blood Elves has you go and honor the Shrine of Dath'Remar.

Then nothing is mentioned about him at all after that. Not a peep, he plays no role in any language or literature in game.. and most of the lore about him shows up during the night elf story.

my point is, it's mentioned so you know there is a connection, but they clearly want to show the blood elves separate from the night elves.

We bear in mind there is a connection, and that may hold greater or smaller relevance to us personally.. it's there, you can hearken on to it, but it's always been minor.

Again, I agree - them being from Zin-Azshari isn't important, they could have been from Suramar, Eldre'Thalas, Shan'daral or even Ameth'Aran, the Blood Elves do have a lot of respect for their ancestors, as is indicated by the second or third quest on Sunstrider Isle.

Blood Elves Honour Their Ancestors, The Sunstrider Highborne Only
Yes, but the impression I get is that the blood elves respect the ancestors of the Sunstrider line, not all or any Highborne. They are not advocates for the caste, but for their line of the caste's they believe were true to righteous and good ideals unlike those who became eveil and corrupted.

Darth'remar was as appalled as Tyrande and Malfurion and Farondis were at what the Queen was doing, and the other Highborne who were going along with her.

the Thalassian elves and night elves are not proud of that group. The Sunstrider line stood against this evil. this is worth being proud off. The Highborne are a caste, they are not all related by blood or family, however the Sunstrider are. there is a difference.


It's like people who think the non-Highborne night elves hate the Highborne caste indiscriminately.. they don't. Not one would hate any Farondis night elf Highborne. the arrogance of the caste was renowned, but as we discover more it was more the Queen's circle and Zin'Azshari. Suramar Elisande Highborne rebelled against the legion, there was no hate for them. The Shen'dralar had "anger" not hate towards them because they stood by and did nothing as the Queen's evil burned cities only choosing to act when their city came under threat.. this was the beef they had with them.


the problem with the Sunstriders, to the rest of the night elf group, was that they had actively portalled in the demons before seeing the error of their ways, this was a Highborne group that could be blamed directly.. but the other night elves (other Highborne, lowborne, Priest, Moonguard, Soldiers, stragglers, nobles etc) didn't lock them up or ostracise them, they accepted their help on word of Tyrannde, becasue they were fighting the legion, most night elves had been duped by the Queen anyway, it's wone thing to realise your error and turn, and another thing to embrace evil.

Quite a few druids were Highborne and Moonguard too, all the ones that speak of the hubris of their race are very likely former Highborne, because these were the ones that were most arrogant.. you can tell by their language.


My point is that before more was revealed, you could basically think the Highborne as just one blanket group with no distinction, yet there is lots, Thalassians, only reverence their direct ancestors, who maintained the original nobility of the Highbonre, for which Farondis' court is a good example of how they were meant to be or were when they were not arrogant. They don't hold reverence for the evil scum like Xavius and Vashj who embraced power at the expense of lives. These may have been the majority of the leading Highborne in the city, but they certainly weren't all.

Till today, the Farondis exist, in their unliving state or phased state because of what Azshara did, Highborne all of them, but you see the nobility in them, you see they work with druids and priests to in an integrated society that is arcane led like it was during the pre-sundering mong Highborne dominated areas like Azsuna was, but not arrogant.

What Blizzard Was Showing in the Night Elves vs High Elves
Firstly, people, must stop thinking that night elves was the nature group counterpart tot eh high elves. This was never the intention, blizzard was building a bigger, original elven group that encompassed all the qualities of the elves, seen in the high elves, and others that were not . A more primal, original elf, a huge race, it's own faction, not a small part or equal part of a group [this i why it had majestic and sophisticated elements, primal and savage ones, advanced and rural ones, etc). The Thalassians were part of the alliance, like Dwarves are, and similar to how trolls and Tauren are to orcs, the night elves were a titanic full race encompassing a wide range both arcane and nature.. don't be fooled that the original introduction in game showed largely nature, it came at the same time as the book that showed the arcane and demon hunter sides and a much more fleshed out priestly side.. it was just in novel form not shown.. the showing part would come much later in 1.1, 4.0 and 7.0, with extras in 8.1, 8.2 as it develops. It came later than it should have done, because the focus switched away from alliance races to build up the horde, and night elves suffered because they were put in the alliance, but eventually it came. Sadly most fans only remember the game bits they have replayed to death


Thalassian elves are from night elves, they inherit the arcane love and predisposition, nature love and pre-disposition s well as the benevolent nature. They've had a separate journey that has changed them a little bit, and therefore, they've lost a lot of knowledge and had to rebuild themselves almost as if learning anew.. this is why they aren't as developed deeply in the arcane or nature as the night elven groups who survived and are alive since before the sundering whether in arcane or nature. But they have all these. Because they have different experiences and are a little changed themselves, they may nt have the same degrees of these things, but you must remember they have these things, this is the core of the elf.

When blizzard created the night elves, they wanted to empahsize the qualities of the elf that make them more distinct from humans, this is why arcane achievements and dispostiion is turned up a notch and is higher in the night elves than in the high elves, same with nature love which has this crazy fanaticism too and depth not seen in the Thalassians, , same wit the benevolent nature as well as the ferocity and savagery. Hte original idea was that this was a2purer" elf, whereas the Thalassisans are a bit more "humanised, closer to what we understand or can relate to as humans, having also interacted with and also pretty much led /taught humanity. You could argue in the Warcraft universe, the way humans are is because of the guidance of the elves, rather than the other way round, but it's a less intense version of the night elves..and this is by design. Humans are greatly influenced by the Thalassian elves in warcraft. This makes sense seeing they are the older and more advanced civilisation. Humans would have found much inspiration from the elves and drawn to their magical power, beauty and grace. However all these items are turne dup a notch in night elves

Think of the Night Elves Based on how The Designers Intended
You have to think of them as their own separate stories, but linked. Most fans think of night elves as the opposite side of High elves. This was never the intention, Blizzard was creating a fuller more complete faction level race in the night elves, this is why the story of the high elves is only a small portion of hte night elves. They are the bigger elven body and have a much bigger scope. This is intentional. Fans also don't know most of the night elves' story or lore, they've never read the books, and rely on partial wikipedia accounts to inform them that have a lot of information missing or sometimes only show one face of the information when you click on night elf. go to wowpedia, Highborne is a separate entry, when it should be part of the story of the night elves in the description, so most people who click on night elves don't see that. yet in Chronicles, the entire pre-sundering and long vigil part of the night elves, including the Nightborne are all told under the night elf bracket.

Fans only go on the WC3 and classic zone appearance outlook and ignore the text, ignore the novels (which are the bulk of night elf lore - not the game) and they also ignore cataclysm and Legion updates too, because the older stuff has been around longer and sadly night elves were not updated till 6 years after launch. this is why they have this narrow view of them, and most are not aware of the pre-sundering era.

When 8.2 showed up, Azshara warbringers, Suramar too - a lot of fans did not connect them with the night elves- this shows you how uneducated they are - i had to literally quote an in game quest in the night elf starting areas to explain to them that the Moonwells were arcane waters, and were sacred, and that the Well of eternity has been a huge part for the night elves both before the sundering and during the long vigil.

It is insane how ignorant most people are about this race.. because THEY DON'T read the information that frames the context. They just see trees and woods and huts and draw conclusions. This is partly because wow's information is in text form not in cinematics and voice overs.. band they just want to play a game, however there is lore, lots of it. Some of us have read the novels more than we have played the WC3 and classic experiences.

[Tanaria]

Thalassian elves are from night elves, they inherit the arcane love and predisposition, nature love and pre-disposition s well as the benevolent nature. They've had a separate journey that has changed them a little bit, and therefore, they've lost a lot of knowledge and had to rebuild themselves almost as if learning anew.. this is why they aren't as developed deeply in the arcane or nature as the night elven groups who survived and are alive since before the sundering whether in arcane or nature. But they have all these. Because they have different experiences and are a little changed themselves, they may nt have the same degrees of these things, but you must remember they have these things, this is the core of the elf.

Except, theory knowledge, which the Shen'dralar only has not been any match for the developments that the Sin'dorei have, which make the latter, the better Arcanists.

Shen'dralar just aren't as developed in combat, nor are they as good at arcane magical practice in the practical sense, as the Blood Elves are, because the Sin'dorei have had chance to redevelop, advance and now - they are masters of Blood Magic, they make up some of the best Fire Mages and their Magisters present a force of magical mastery, almost unrivaled. Only the Nightborne would prove better.

Void Elves are on the same level.

Nelfs are just weak, but they have strengths elsewhere, like Druidism.

[Doffen]

Where was the preview of the star infused night elf skin yesterday??

Did we not tell you that we want it Blizzard? Make it happen.

Or else!

[Mace]

Except, theory knowledge, which the Shen'dralar only has not been any match for the developments that the Sin'dorei have, which make the latter, the better Arcanists.

That's not what the lore tells us. IF you are drawing this conclusion simply by what you see in game, rather than incorporating what you read, you'll lead to error, because the game often doesn't show a lot of stuff unless they start focusing on your group Cata quests for example focused more on the new and returning Darnassian to the arcane, rather than the Shen'dralar who were leading them.

We saw no action from them nor Dire Maul redone because most of the development went into the humans and orcs for detail , while everyone else got minimal visual updates or barely relevant to show their story.

The lore tells us both the Shen'dralar in Eldre'thaals and the night elves in Suramar continue developing their skills and advancing their knowledge. Of the Shen'dralar theya re told to be feverishly studying the arcane. Even when they are written in Wolfheart, they are practicing their magic unwilling to let their skills stagnate.

What does that tell you?

You don't see what they are capable of, nor do you see what they achieved in Eldre'thalas before they let it fall to ruin consumed by their knowledge lust.

We can surmise from the lore, they have significantly advanced their arcane knowledge and study, no other group is remarked as being feverishly studying for so long or spying on everyone too, obsessed with knowledge, even the most obscure.

Furthermore, they are the wonder working night elf group, they are the ones that engineered the great arcane wonders of the kaldorei empire as they processed the Queen's top projects (and it is stated often in secrets), they are the empire's most revered arcanists, had a city built for themselves, the only All Highborne kaldorei city we know of, which was rare for them, as all their major cities had everyone from several castes.

Shen'dralar just aren't as developed in combat

This I could agree with. While we don't really know, they are not renowned as fighters like say the Moonguard who when we meet in 7.0 are phenomenal, and seem much better than the Nightborne who come to destroy them, taking out far many more Nightborne than return the favour - even though most of the Moonguard are killed.

The Shen'dralar instead are never shown fighting in the cataclysm wars, and Mordant Evenshade, we see in the Darkshore warfront, really doesn't do much.

The night elven mages we see fighting, lie in cata Azshara are returned highborne or new students, and it's possible these are also the same working with the Kirin'tor... So the lack of showing the Shen'dralar in action might actually support this.

, nor are they as good at arcane magical practice in the practical sense, as the Blood Elves are, because the Sin'dorei have had chance to redevelop, advance and now - they are masters of Blood Magic, they make up some of the best Fire Mages and their Magisters present a force of magical mastery, almost unrivaled. Only the Nightborne would prove better.

For the Shen'dralar i can agree with this only in respect to combat, not in respect to engineering or wonders, which is their forte. Your observation seems to match what we aren't shown, basically if they were very good at employing their ingenuity to war, they'd have done like the blood elves did, with blood magic. But that's only in combat, For the rest, the Shen'dralar imo would outstrip the Nightborne who are shown to stagnate despite making progress, their progress is slow, but then 10,000 years ago, they were more advanced than all the Darnassians, Thalassians, humans and every other from Azeroth magically, so even if they only made a little progress, they'd still be more advanced.


However you make an error when you say better... Thalassians are just as good as the Nightborne and Shen'dralar - the only difference is the amount of time and knowledge the night elven groups have. That's it. You could say genetically the night elf form can retrain and cope with more arcane magic, but that perhaps has relevance only with regards to how much magic you can take before becoming addicted and corrupted.. not in terms of how much power you you can smartly use.

And the genetical advantage you may have as a kaldorei/shal'dorei is small enough for personal talent to render meaningless (in my opinion), you could have a Thalassian outstrip everyone, just like you can have a human.

however in Warcraft the strongest and most powerful arcane spell casters are Illidan Stormrage and Queen Azshara, both night elven. Furthermore, Farondis, Elisande, Lorthrius Mooncaller, have been shown to wield phenomenal power that have outstripped the shown capabilities of the biggest Thalassian including Anastarian, Kael'thas and Aethas Sunreaver. Saying that, the same can be said of Jaina, Khadgar, Medvih and Aegwyn, - although the last two had Guardian power. When you look to the void elves now, Umbric and Alleria are extremely powerful too, and again seem more powerful than any sin'dorei counterpart in magic.

Just saying.

Void Elves are on the same level.

Void elves seem a level above everyone else, because the amplification of the void incorporated into their magic puts them ahead of night elf, Nightborne and blood elf alike.

I don't write the lore, just my observation.

Nelfs are just weak, but they have strengths elsewhere, like Druidism.

That's just a silly thing to say after all the names I've called and shown. The biggest names in arcane magic have been night elven, regardless of how they turned out. The biggest arcane talent has come from the night elves too. Azshara, Illidan, Xavius, Vashj', Farondis, Lothrius, Darth'remar, Elisande, Aluriel - they are more powerful even than the human contingent.

As far as potential or talent, you have to remember, night elves haven't changed, it's the same gene pool that produced all those casters still around, the only thing that would be different is that the Darnassians were out of practice, but the Shend'ralar night elves, Moonguard and Farondis are not - so rusty night elves like the Starwhisper twins who return to being mages, or new night elf mage talent would have the most advanced teachers in the world at their disposal with access to knowledge only their Nightborne kin can rival.


Sying that , because of their friendship, it is likely blood elves have access to that knowledge too. Wheareas we don't know if the night elven mages have shared their knoweldge iwth the kirin'tor and void elves. Because we don't really have an update on how friendly they are.

Besides, it doesn't matter how talented you are as an elf, if you don't fulfill our potential, you're not going to be considered great, despite your talent or capability.

As far as we know, one of the most powerful mages is the player character, and he can be any race apart from Tauren

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Where was the preview of the star infused night elf skin yesterday??

Did we not tell you that we want it Blizzard? Make it happen.

Or else!

I second that.

Surely they know it's a popular demand

[Tanaria]

SNIP

I think your going off your own headcanon in terms of how you interpret the lore.

The Shen'dralar even say themselves, "The magic of 10,000 years past now pales in comparison to the magic of today." Hell, some of the Shen'dralar even joined the Kirin Tor - the Human led organisation.

You mention alot of night elves who are now dead. I mean, you talk of the Moon Guard being better than the Sin'dorei...since when, because the last time I saw, it was the former who was desperate to go to Quel'Thalas and look at Silvermoon's libraries.

And you mention Dath'Remar - the Quel'dorei King of Quel'Thalas.
You mention Alleria, who states her people's mastery of the arcane. That's for all Thalassians.

You are leaving out certain parts because you love nelf mages. I'm not saying you can't love nelf mages, but they are simply not the bestest of the best. They are underneath Sin'dorei, Humans, Shal'dorei, Ren'dorei, Draenei and possibly Zandalari Trolls.

They processed the Queen's demands...but they didn't instigate anything. That went to the Zin-Azshari Elite and where Azshara held her most prized Arcanists and Spellcasters. I mean, if the Shen'dralar were all that...wouldn't Xavius have made Eldre'Thalas the spawning point for the Legion, because the Shen'dralar and Tortheldrin were "just so amazingly perfect!"
And being "revered" means very little, when Vashj'ir was also a "revered city of the Empire." Who is more "revered."

[Mace]

Well, technically, the main fighting force were the Sentinels, during the Long Vigil and the Druids were called upon, when assistance was needed, such as during the Way of the Satyr and War of Shifting Sands.

Technically the sentinel army was created and is led by The Sisterhood of Elune priests and the druids only ever called by them twice, first in the War of the Satyr, and second in the 3rd war when the Legion returned, both times they had trouble waking them up. The war of the shifting sands doesn't count because the druids led that war.

The druids almost never interacted with the sentinels or kaldorei nation. This is what people don't realise, they think of them as one happy forest nature family, but technically it's the druids that enjoyed the bliss of nature, the sentinels just got their job done which was very separate to what the druids were doing.

People don't separate the two, because blizzard hasn't properly delved into the priesthood visually in their night elf portrayals for people to recognise these are different. To compound matters, when they started doing tons of female druids, well it kinda looked all the same to most people.

But then wow fans are notorious for missing out key details only concerned with levelling up their toons

Now, the Long Vigil wasn't 10,000/7300 years of Druids sleeping, as Malfurion states "It's been a thousand years since I last looked upon you, Tyrande." The order was Priestess led, but fighting force were the Sentinels.

And what happened during the pre-sundering era is gone. Most of those night elf mages are dead or have long since become Naga, Nightborne, Satyr or were the first of the High Elves.

Only the palace Highborne lot became naga and satyr. If you survived and met with the Hyjal survivors, whether Highborne or not you likely became a druid or priest. WE are told the Moonguard and Highborne turned to druidism after voting for the arcane to be banned.

3,000 years after that decision, the Sunstrider Highborne decided to force the return of arcane magic, and failed, they were exiled. If you agreed with them, you likely joined them.

Change has happened and Druidism/Night Elf lore are intertwined. When Blizzard talks Druids, they talk Night Elves. It's like Val'Sharah...I remember Blizzard saying "If you like night elf lore, it's all here for you." Battle for Darkshore illustrated the main W3 fighting force of the Night Elves (Sentinels, Druids and Wardens.) We had Moon Priestesses who served as resource spenders and a night elf mage mini boss, but again - that was sold with "What happens if you enter night elf forests."

If you like night elf lore, Val'Sharah, Azsuna, Suramar and broken shore were there for you, they same blizzard talked about bringing night elf civilization back and showing alll the different parts of the kaldorei.

Furthermore, druidism, Highborne, Order of Elune /night elf lore are all intertwined. The problem is blood elf fans seem to only think it's druid lore that's related to night elf lore.. but having read all their books including played all their appearances and watched their development closely, it's quite clear druid lore, Highborne lore, Order of ELune lore, demon hunter lore , pre-sundering kaldorei lore, long vigil lore, Nightborne lore and Darth'remar lore are all tied to kaldorei lore.

Go read chronicles under the night elf section you will see ALL of these. The only one that goes in't a new section of it's on is the lore on Darth'remar. All the others including Nightborne lore are in the kaldorei bracket.

I'll be honest, I'm done with Highborne lore. We've had 2 expansions, back to back, where we got to see their way of life and civilisations. I think we need to go back to Kalimdor and expand on Hyjal being the night elf's new city.
At the same time, Quel'Thalas should be updated for the Blood Elves.

Highborne lore is part of the kaldorei as much as druidic and Elune lore and to be honest, it's been done very haphazardly, we've got so much of druid involvement, even now with the focus switched to Elune, I don't miss the druids yet. Whereas for night elf arcane users, there seems to be unfinished business since they took the Nightborne horde - at least unfinished for the alliance side. There is also a lot of development for the Nightborne that would be interesting to see. It's clear their involvement is far less prominent than the void elves.

I think your going off your own headcanon in terms of how you interpret the lore.

The Shen'dralar even say themselves, "The magic of 10,000 years past now pales in comparison to the magic of today." Hell, some of the Shen'dralar even joined the Kirin Tor - the Human led organisation.

I think you are the one lost in headcanon, it's the opposite, the magic of today pales in comparison to that of 10,000 years ago.

But you seem to have trouble accepting this.

You mention alot of night elves who are now dead. I mean, you talk of the Moon Guard being better than the Sin'dorei...since when, because the last time I saw, it was the former who was desperate to go to Quel'Thalas and look at Silvermoon's libraries.

And you mention Dath'Remar - the Quel'dorei King of Quel'Thalas.
You mention Alleria, who states her people's mastery of the arcane. That's for all Thalassians.

Still not accepting that Darth'remar was a night elf first, and until he transitions into a high elf, he is still a night elf. This is how high elves begin, they all come from night elves.. you hark on about the Highborne roots of the high elves, and yet in the same sentence reject their night elven roots, forgetting that Highborne are all night elves and Darth'remar was a night elf.

You are leaving out certain parts because you love nelf mages. I'm not saying you can't love nelf mages, but they are simply not the bestest of the best. They are underneath Sin'dorei, Humans, Shal'dorei, Ren'dorei, Draenei and possibly Zandalari Trolls.

I'm not leaving out parts because i love night elf mages, i don't like them any more than other night elves, and less than priests, I'm emphasizing a certain group, excuse me if I don't add an extra 3 paragraphs to incorporate all the other night elf groups every time I want to address a misconception about night elves and the arcane.

They processed the Queen's demands...but they didn't instigate anything.

Dude, you are taking a summary, and concluding this was the extent of what is obviously an extensive topic. you are talking about a global empire and you are ignoring ti is mentioned "most revered arcanists" - these were the most elite that were gathered together and tasked with the greatest projects the Queen coveted for herself only to add to her glory.. this is the pedigree that supersedes any others (imo - high designation indeed), and these were the ones that made it happen, do you think they would be labelled as "most revered" or be secondary charlatans, they'd be the cream of the crop."

That went to the Zin-Azshari Elite and where Azshara held her most prized Arcanists and Spellcasters. I mean, if the Shen'dralar were all that...wouldn't Xavius have made Eldre'Thalas the spawning point for the Legion, because the Shen'dralar and Tortheldrin were "just so amazingly perfect!"
And being "revered" means very little, when Vashj'ir was also a "revered city of the Empire." Who is more "revered."

Seriously.. do you always do this? The denial is so obvious.. prized arcanist is not the same level as "most revered arcanist" and Xavius is second in command of the entire empire, he'd be in the palace.

Furthermore, the Nar'thalas academy, which the Farondis run was the highest centre of arcane learning in the world, it wasn't in Zin'Azshari, it was in Nar'thalas.

like in every empire, not the best of everything resides in the capital always. In the UK, Cambridge University is the highest centre of learning and academia followed by Oxford, they are not in the nation's nor the Empire's capital.

In the U.S, New York is the financial global centre , certainly for the USA, not the capital city Washington D.C. Sure the president is in D.C and some of the most talented people, but not all of them.

Technological innovation comes from the far west in silicon valley, all the tach that puts the US at the front isn't from the people in the Capital as talented as they are, nor from the financial big boys in New York...


To think the Shen'dralar or Farondis are less because you think night elves are weak despite being told the incredible work they managed - is just prejudiced if you ask me.

You keep denying night elves are good at this, and I give you example after example, ad you have some bogus excuse, just accept it, the lore put them there, I didn't put them there I didn't call them the most revered arcanists, I didn't didn't put them as the ones processing the top projects for the Queen, I didn't say they were the ones studying the arcane feverishly for 10,000 years after the sundering too in a city that survive in tact despite falling to ruin 9,000 years later - meanwhile they're still in there studying and practising. .I didn't write this.

I didn't put the Nar'thalas academy as the top centre of arcane research that even blue dragons use to go to and explore the mysteries of the arcane and ponder them with the scholars there, I didn't elevate those sections of the kaldorei empire... I didn't put Azshara and Illidan as the greatest sorcerers ever.


None of this is my lore, I'm just repeating to you what they've written, that you can still think night elven magic users are weak and rubbish - just because the arcane isn't predominant in night elf society is beyond me. .that doesn't mean the lot that use it aren't great at it, nor does it mean there aren't other night elves that are extremely powerful and skilled at it around elsewhere. [Just because I point it out doesn't mean I'm some night elf super mage fan, you just knock them so much and i know you're ignoring what the lore is written i feel compelled to correct it, and because this is the area that you seem to push back on the most, guess whawt, i have to respond the most here. Night elves aren't even my fave race. Between Ravenmoon and you guys you always drag me into this, but i hate incorrect info .. just because i think a lot about something and go into detail - that's just my character. I have no more love for these elves than others, but hese are the ones that are often mistaken over the most.]

Furthermore, as story would go, most Darnassians are no longer impressed by all the wonders the arcane can do, they have grown past that, understanding it's not all about technological or magical wonder, I don't think they'll let themselves ever be carried away to that extent totally. does that mean no nightelf practices the arcane extensively or isn't impressed by it? off course not, it just means the entire society would never be so totally consumed by it like they were before, it's no longer the new novel thing, it's been over 10,000 years, all night elves know the value of balance, and while other pursuits might not be as flashy they have their place, their value, and their significant importance. Those who are talented at nature will practice druidism, those who are at arcane will return to being mages now, because their strength is not nature, where they had to stop before.

This doesn't mean they all will, nor does it mean that is what I want to happen. I am merely examining what is written to be happening and painting a logical picture on hoew it must be.

Because of the ban, many who were talented in arcane would have had to likely join the druids and the priests, with the arcane and Highborne ban lifted, the lore tells us many former Highborne, who had become druids returned to join the Shen'dralar as Highborne and mages. IT was these returned ones the horde hero fought in Azshara zone - blizzard confirmed this by tweet, it was Darnassian mages not Shen'dralar ones. and it makes sense, people who were mages 10,000 years ago, but very rusty would have been the ones quick enough to get sufficient enough practice to actually go to the battlefront, them and some very talented brand new ones.

However a lot of their knowledge would be outdated, as they'd only been a few weeks in training before they have to go war, this is why the blood elf mage is able to subvert both their construct and their portal - it's not the Shen'dralar that are giving out dated knowledge, and it's clear no draenei, human mage is with them here or that mistake would not be made. These are guys that are 10,000 years out of practice, have trained for a few weeks, but impressed enough to go into battle, they're not weak either - we se them cast Wrath and frostbolt spells, the problem is some of their techniques are outdated and the blood elf can take advantage.

Trust me, there is no human, Shen'dralar night elf, draenei, gnome or alliance mage with them here, it's old school boys.


Read the lore, and read the dev statements please.

[Tanaria]

SNIP.

Always about what was, 10,000 years ago.

I think your just prejudiced against Sin'dorei Mages, to be honest.

Night Elves just aren't at the level of the Sin'dorei and Ren'dorei anymore, as far as the arcane goes.
But Night Elves just have strengths in other areas. They don't need to be the best at everything...

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To think the Shen'dralar or Farondis are less because you think night elves are weak despite being told the incredible work they managed - is just prejudiced if you ask me.

What did the Shen'dralar do? They processed the demands, but what else?

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Technically the sentinel army was created and is led by The Sisterhood of Elune priests and the druids only ever called by them twice, first in the War of the Satyr, and second in the 3rd war when the Legion returned, both times they had trouble waking them up. The war of the shifting sands doesn't count because the druids led that war.

The druids almost never interacted with the sentinels or kaldorei nation. This is what people don't realise, they think of them as one happy forest nature family, but technically it's the druids that enjoyed the bliss of nature, the sentinels just got their job done which was very separate to what the druids were doing.

People don't separate the two, because blizzard hasn't properly delved into the priesthood visually in their night elf portrayals for people to recognise these are different. To compound matters, when they started doing tons of female druids, well it kinda looked all the same to most people.

But then wow fans are notorious for missing out key details only concerned with levelling up their toons



Only the palace Highborne lot became naga and satyr. If you survived and met with the Hyjal survivors, whether Highborne or not you likely became a druid or priest. WE are told the Moonguard and Highborne turned to druidism after voting for the arcane to be banned.

3,000 years after that decision, the Sunstrider Highborne decided to force the return of arcane magic, and failed, they were exiled. If you agreed with them, you likely joined them.

If you like night elf lore, Val'Sharah, Azsuna, Suramar and broken shore were there for you, they same blizzard talked about bringing night elf civilization back and showing alll the different parts of the kaldorei.

Furthermore, druidism, Highborne, Order of Elune /night elf lore are all intertwined. The problem is blood elf fans seem to only think it's druid lore that's related to night elf lore.. but having read all their books including played all their appearances and watched their development closely, it's quite clear druid lore, Highborne lore, Order of ELune lore, demon hunter lore , pre-sundering kaldorei lore, long vigil lore, Nightborne lore and Darth'remar lore are all tied to kaldorei lore.

Go read chronicles under the night elf section you will see ALL of these. The only one that goes in't a new section of it's on is the lore on Darth'remar. All the others including Nightborne lore are in the kaldorei bracket.


Highborne lore is part of the kaldorei as much as druidic and Elune lore and to be honest, it's been done very haphazardly, we've got so much of druid involvement, even now with the focus switched to Elune, I don't miss the druids yet. Whereas for night elf arcane users, there seems to be unfinished business since they took the Nightborne horde - at least unfinished for the alliance side. There is also a lot of development for the Nightborne that would be interesting to see. It's clear their involvement is far less prominent than the void elves.



I think you are the one lost in headcanon, it's the opposite, the magic of today pales in comparison to that of 10,000 years ago.

But you seem to have trouble accepting this.



Still not accepting that Darth'remar was a night elf first, and until he transitions into a high elf, he is still a night elf. This is how high elves begin, they all come from night elves.. you hark on about the Highborne roots of the high elves, and yet in the same sentence reject their night elven roots, forgetting that Highborne are all night elves and Darth'remar was a night elf.


I'm not leaving out parts because i love night elf mages, i don't like them any more than other night elves, and less than priests, I'm emphasizing a certain group, excuse me if I don't add an extra 3 paragraphs to incorporate all the other night elf groups every time I want to address a misconception about night elves and the arcane.

Alright, I accept I got the quote wrong, but show me how good they are.

Don't tell me - "they were scrying on the world" because that is something that was made up by Ravenmoon. Nothing supports that, only trying to make them sound better.

After the well, the Highborne who took exile have the evidence that they improved and got better and as Alleria says, "her people's mastery of the arcane." I don't see that with the Shen'dralar. You can talk about what was, all you want, but what was isn't what we have now. Things have changed.

[Mace]

What did the Shen'dralar do? They processed the demands, but what else?

.

You're under estimating them because you looking down on the kaldorei your prized blood elves actually come from, rather than looking up - you can look down at the druids for being humble, they won't care ofc, they're not phased or charm by the wonders of their race some of them undoubtedly played a significant role in achieving, but you shouldn't look at the kaldorei all like that.


Think.

1. A city all to themselves - a CITY - the operation was huge - this is what they did
2. Processed? you think it's like processing admin forms? The implication is these guys built the things, and worked out the equations based on the Queen's thoughts or ideas - they had the talent to make it happen

Notice what Azshara does, she know how to find talent, and put it to use, and make sure she gets all the credit.. even if it's your invention, your work.. she discovered you, she is queen, or she wanted to make that happen, so even if you do it, it's hers, she gets the glory everyone things she is amazing , everyone continues to look at her adoringly. Whether it was the idea only she came up with.

3. Most revered arcanists - means most revered arcanist

these aren't childsplay, this is like the silicon valley of the empire , the coolest things and the top projects are created here. They are the wonder makers of the kaldorei empire - and they are serious nerds/book worms, theorists, inventors, engineers of magic.

The lore is consistent on them, after the empire falls, they secure a power source for themselves, a demon no doubt, and successfully manage to siphon it's arcane energies to power their city and prevent themselves from being corrupted by fel, as well as prevent the Legion from finding Azeroth .
They do almost immediately what Darth'remar theorises and actually doesn't manage to achieve for another 3,000 years.
These guys had also delved into void sufficiently enough that Wrathion requires their records in the library, he would have had better success asking one of them, but who knows who is an agent of the old gods, and his mission is top secret.
They are feverishly studying and expounding on their knowledge, it's probably why they don't catch Immol'thar's deception. But then they probably are over confident in their skills
They've been spying on the world too, not that they feel everyone else, including their northern kin who are living in the stone ages (by choice no less - but good for them) backed up by dragons (but then dragons, despite their knowledge and intelligence have never needed cities and places, they're fine dwelling in layers with their impervious skin and majestic forms).. no they spy because they're knowledge hounds, it's not that knowledge benefits them, they want to know everything.

Eldre'thalas was likely ya wonder filled place like no other, meaning unlike Suramar who's beauty was in the buildings and it's craftsmanship - shining like a jewel, Eldre'thalas would have been filled with magical wonders of all sorts - meaning when the lights go out and there isn't enough power, all those things would disappear, because they are power generated, in addition too the beautiful buildings slowly falling in to ruin as they withdraw to a small section of the city to continue studying and feeding on the remaining magic they can.


This is the profile of the people you are snubbing. .what does this tell you about them.

It tells you as far as magical achievements, creations, inventions, knowledge and wonders they are at the top. One area they don't seem to have much pedigree on is fighting. We know they employ Ancients, who also got corrupted with them (see Dire Maul) and in the War of the Ancients, two wild gods fought with them agians thte legion - their ingenuity making up for their lack of battel capability, but they had to have had something to be the only city to survive a Legion assault apart from Suramar, and half of Suramar was destroyed bear in mind.

[Tanaria]

You're under estimating them because you looking down on the kaldorei your prized blood elves actually come from, rather than looking up - you can look down at the druids for being humble, they won't care ofc, they're not phased or charm by the wonders of their race some of them undoubtedly played a significant role in achieving, but you shouldn't look at the kaldorei all like that.


Think.

1. A city all to themselves - a CITY - the operation was huge - this is what they did
2. Processed? you think it's like processing admin forms? The implication is these guys built the things, and worked out the equations based on the Queen's thoughts or ideas - they had the talent to make it happen

Notice what Azshara does, she know how to find talent, and put it to use, and make sure she gets all the credit.. even if it's your invention, your work.. she discovered you, she is queen, or she wanted to make that happen, so even if you do it, it's hers, she gets the glory everyone things she is amazing , everyone continues to look at her adoringly. Whether it was the idea only she came up with.

3. Most revered arcanists - means most revered arcanist

these aren't childsplay, this is like the silicon valley of the empire , the coolest things and the top projects are created here. They are the wonder makers of the kaldorei empire - and they are serious nerds/book worms, theorists, inventors, engineers of magic.

The lore is consistent on them, after the empire falls, they secure a power source for themselves, a demon no doubt, and successfully manage to siphon it's arcane energies to power their city and prevent themselves from being corrupted by fel, as well as prevent the Legion from finding Azeroth .
They do almost immediately what Darth'remar theorises and actually doesn't manage to achieve for another 3,000 years.
These guys had also delved into void sufficiently enough that Wrathion requires their records in the library, he would have had better success asking one of them, but who knows who is an agent of the old gods, and his mission is top secret.
They are feverishly studying and expounding on their knowledge, it's probably why they don't catch Immol'thar's deception. But then they probably are over confident in their skills
They've been spying on the world too, not that they feel everyone else, including their northern kin who are living in the stone ages (by choice no less - but good for them) backed up by dragons (but then dragons, despite their knowledge and intelligence have never needed cities and places, they're fine dwelling in layers with their impervious skin and majestic forms).. no they spy because they're knowledge hounds, it's not that knowledge benefits them, they want to know everything.

Eldre'thalas was likely ya wonder filled place like no other, meaning unlike Suramar who's beauty was in the buildings and it's craftsmanship - shining like a jewel, Eldre'thalas would have been filled with magical wonders of all sorts - meaning when the lights go out and there isn't enough power, all those things would disappear, because they are power generated, in addition too the beautiful buildings slowly falling in to ruin as they withdraw to a small section of the city to continue studying and feeding on the remaining magic they can.


This is the profile of the people you are snubbing. .what does this tell you about them.

It tells you as far as magical achievements, creations, inventions, knowledge and wonders they are at the top. One area they don't seem to have much pedigree on is fighting. We know they employ Ancients, who also got corrupted with them (see Dire Maul) and in the War of the Ancients, two wild gods fought with them agians thte legion - their ingenuity making up for their lack of battel capability, but they had to have had something to be the only city to survive a Legion assault apart from Suramar, and half of Suramar was destroyed bear in mind.

And they were so good, she forgot to include them in the plans regarding the Burning Legion. Woops

And where does it state, that they have been spying on the world? Don't tell me to think or "blizzard said it at a Blizzcon" then don't proceed to provide links. You have made a claim, back it up or your just making it up.

They delved into the Void? Well done, the Void Elves are some of the few MASTERS of the Void. Even @Varodoc would laugh at the Shen'dralar efforts, when in comparison to the Ren'dorei.

And everything else is just mere headcanon. Everything is just "Probably was this" and "Likely was that." You have no evidence to any of these claims. Wrathion only mentions they studied the void...well, so what? We've got Elves who have mastered the Void (Ren'dorei.)

[Mace]

And they were so good, she forgot to include them in the plans regarding the Burning Legion. Woops

Everyone outside teh palace of Zin'Azshari was excluded.

The Queen wrote everyone else off.. this doesn't mean much... you know that the influence of the demons was storngest around the palace, those who were far out, highborne included felt it was madness.

THis disqualifies them no matter how good they are - if you don't have the "intelligence" to agree with this eveil (an addicted seduced QUeen thinks is great) then you are obviously disqualified.

Did you check the criteria Azshara set on who qualifies.

Did you think about it?

How is it that no one in the empire, except those who agreed with her in her small circle, that were under demonic influence - qualify...?

Is it because they weren't good? or she went with those who agreed with her...?

Ever thought also that those who agreed with her would have gone to the palace and stayed, while others like the Farondis and Shen'dralar would have seen it for the madness it was.

This is how I reckon it went.. many night elves including Highborne were appalled at the abuse of the well leading up tot he invasion - Azshara was over doing it, and Highborne in particular would be less armoured by the queen than others.


Farondis decided to act, the first to act, and Azshara responded with overkill.. what does this response mean?

It's probably why Eldre'thalas didn't act against her, who would dare defy the queen openly.. that single act was qcalculated to squash any thoughts of rebellion empire wide, including the Highborne. Farondis was a Prince - ruler of Suramar region - whether a relative or not he is very high up, if Azshara would squash a Prince like that who would dare openly rebel?

IT is probably why it took the likes of MAlfurion , Illidan and Tyrande to galvanise a rebellion.

When the invasions started, well cities were put in flames, only Highborne would have had access t the Queen for safety. Those in Suramar chose to fight against the demon, and they won, those in Eldre'thalas didn't move against the Queen, but when the demons came they fought.

And where does it state, that they have been spying on the world? Don't tell me to think or "blizzard said it at a Blizzcon" then don't proceed to provide links. You have made a claim, back it up or your just making it up.

You don't follow this race closely, go read the classic quests and go get exalted with the Shen'dralar in classic.. it's there somewhere. They scryed everything.

They delved into the Void? Well done, the Void Elves are some of the few MASTERS of the Void. Even @Varodoc would laugh at the Shen'dralar efforts, when in comparison to the Ren'dorei.

Didn't say they mastered the void like void elves.. sheesh, the intorduction of the void elves is a water shed mark in dealign with the void for Azeroth races.. Shend'ralar would have had research well beyond their time and race, but Alleria is at it for 1,000 years and meets a Locus Walker with the most advanced k noweldge of a race that's been tackling this for a while.

Azshara and the naga are infused and taught by an old god, but unlike the void elves they are twisted and corrupted by the void.. what is remarkable about the void elves is not just th e great knowledge, but resisting the whispers, the first ever to do so, but to assume the kaldorei, especially after the lore of the Night Warrior, and the Wrathion quest clearly stating so, didn't have some deep knowledge of the void pertaining to Azeroth's past - which the void elves, for all their superior knowhow on the void won't have, because they aren't as long lived as magi who'd studied this over 10,000 years ago from an era that had access to vast amounts of knowledge lost to everyone else.

Think before you type.

And everything else is just mere headcanon. Everything is just "Probably was this" and "Likely was that." You have no evidence to any of these claims. Wrathion only mentions they studied the void...well, so what? We've got Elves who have mastered the Void (Ren'dorei.)

Your denials are headcanon. Think ! What does information do? it informs! Waht is this information informing you about? Try paying attention to the story it is trying to tell you, rather than the one you want it to tell you.

[Tanaria]

Everyone outside teh palace of Zin'Azshari was excluded.

The Queen wrote everyone else off.. this doesn't mean much... you know that the influence of the demons was storngest around the palace, those who were far out, highborne included felt it was madness.

THis disqualifies them no matter how good they are - if you don't have the "intelligence" to agree with this eveil (an addicted seduced QUeen thinks is great) then you are obviously disqualified.

Did you check the criteria Azshara set on who qualifies.

Did you think about it?

How is it that no one in the empire, except those who agreed with her in her small circle, that were under demonic influence - qualify...?

Is it because they weren't good? or she went with those who agreed with her...?

Ever thought also that those who agreed with her would have gone to the palace and stayed, while others like the Farondis and Shen'dralar would have seen it for the madness it was.

This is how I reckon it went.. many night elves including Highborne were appalled at the abuse of the well leading up tot he invasion - Azshara was over doing it, and Highborne in particular would be less armoured by the queen than others.


Farondis decided to act, the first to act, and Azshara responded with overkill.. what does this response mean?

It's probably why Eldre'thalas didn't act against her, who would dare defy the queen openly.. that single act was qcalculated to squash any thoughts of rebellion empire wide, including the Highborne. Farondis was a Prince - ruler of Suramar region - whether a relative or not he is very high up, if Azshara would squash a Prince like that who would dare openly rebel?

IT is probably why it took the likes of MAlfurion , Illidan and Tyrande to galvanise a rebellion.

When the invasions started, well cities were put in flames, only Highborne would have had access t the Queen for safety. Those in Suramar chose to fight against the demon, and they won, those in Eldre'thalas didn't move against the Queen, but when the demons came they fought.



You don't follow this race closely, go read the classic quests and go get exalted with the Shen'dralar in classic.. it's there somewhere. They scryed everything.


Didn't say they mastered the void like void elves.. sheesh, the intorduction of the void elves is a water shed mark in dealign with the void for Azeroth races.. Shend'ralar would have had research well beyond their time and race, but Alleria is at it for 1,000 years and meets a Locus Walker with the most advanced k noweldge of a race that's been tackling this for a while.

Azshara and the naga are infused and taught by an old god, but unlike the void elves they are twisted and corrupted by the void.. what is remarkable about the void elves is not just th e great knowledge, but resisting the whispers, the first ever to do so, but to assume the kaldorei, especially after the lore of the Night Warrior, and the Wrathion quest clearly stating so, didn't have some deep knowledge of the void pertaining to Azeroth's past - which the void elves, for all their superior knowhow on the void won't have, because they aren't as long lived as magi who'd studied this over 10,000 years ago from an era that had access to vast amounts of knowledge lost to everyone else.

Think before you type.



Your denials are headcanon. Think ! What does information do? it informs! Waht is this information informing you about? Try paying attention to the story it is trying to tell you, rather than the one you want it to tell you.

You have said nothing that is concrete.

Why don't you "think before you type."

I have never seen anything about them scrying and you can't keep this headcanon straight. First, them scrying was in the quest texts in Feralas, then it was said at a Blizzcon, now it's part of the shendralar faction of classic (of which I am exalted and nothing is mentioned there.)

Can we just stop peddling this lie? You aren't able to keep the supposed source, consistent. It's just a lie that you won't make me believe.

You just think, being old means their much better, yet Blood Elves and Void Elves are better than Shendralar. "JUST THINK MACE."

Thalassian Elves are just better at the Arcane, Light and Void.
Play the game, then come back to me. THINK!!!!

[Mace]

You have said nothing that is concrete.

Why don't you "think before you type."

I have never seen anything about them scrying and you can't keep this headcanon straight. First, them scrying was in the quest texts in Feralas, then it was said at a Blizzcon, now it's part of the shendralar faction of classic (of which I am exalted and nothing is mentioned there.)

Can we just stop peddling this lie? You aren't able to keep the supposed source, consistent. It's just a lie that you won't make me believe.

You just think, being old means their much better, yet Blood Elves and Void Elves are better than Shendralar. "JUST THINK MACE."

Thalassian Elves are just better at the Arcane, Light and Void.
Play the game, then come back to me. THINK!!!!

I said classic not cataclysm


What are you on about? You can go on thinking the Shen’dralar are weak and night elves are weak.

I suspect you are hanging on to that desperately despite so
Much of the lore saying otherwise because to acknowledge would likely mean you need to switch factions as it would mean the other race is actually better at the thing you like the blood elves the most for.

Rather than deny the lore. Just find admirable things about the blood elves that are true. Blizzard out a lot into them, you’ll find something.

It’s just not arcane magic, night elves have done a lot more there and gone further.

[Tanaria]

I said classic not cataclysm


What are you on about? You can go on thinking the Shen’dralar are weak and night elves are weak.

I suspect you are hanging on to that desperately despite so
Much of the lore saying otherwise because to acknowledge would likely mean you need to switch factions as it would mean the other race is actually better at the thing you like the blood elves the most for.

Rather than deny the lore. Just find admirable things about the blood elves that are true. Blizzard out a lot into them, you’ll find something.

It’s just not arcane magic, night elves have done a lot more there and gone further.

It is arcane magic. Your just in denial because you play 50 night elf mages. And I said "classic." I stated that your sources for this lie has changed on 3 occasions, so your story doesn't add up. Firstly, I was told this scrying on the world was mentioned in the Feralas quests (Estulan), then I was told it was mentioned at Blizzcon, now it's in classic. I honestly, don't think you guys know the lore for the race/class combo you adore so much.

Anybody who denies Thalassian mastery of the arcane is trolling and doesn't play the game.

Play the game, I'm not interested in your headcanons. "It's just not arcane magic." Blizzard already disagrees with your headcanons Mace and I love it. Alleria Windrunner, during the Void Elf recruitment: "My people's mastery of the arcane." Her people, being all Thalassians. Both Sin'dorei and Ren'dorei have gone to new heights as well through Blood Magic, Blood Golems and Void-Arcane elementals.

nelfs are weak as mages and the sooner you accept that, the better. You ignore what's in-game, in favor of what's on WoWpedia and then draw headcanon based conclusions from that.

Maybe accept that their angle is Druidism whilst Sin'dorei/Ren'dorei are more of the "Mage" "Light/Void" and "Ranger" angle. Or maybe look for something else? I'm sure their's something in the nelfs, that's good...but it's not sorcery, arcane or being a Mage. It'll be better for you and you will understand nelf lore better, because I'm probably better at understanding night elf lore than you are. Maybe look towards Druids, Rogues and Hunters for nelfs.
Sin'dorei, Ren'dorei and Shal'dorei are your "mage" elves.

Maybe, it's time for you to admit the hidden truth...that nelfs are just crap Mages, in comparison to the Thalassians and Shalassians, but make superior Druids. If you want to play an elf mage, that is strong, holds mastery and is actually good, then you've got 3 others to choose from.