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  1. #421
    @Mace

    I've posted on the Blood Elf discussion thread.
    Last edited by Tanaria; 2021-11-13 at 06:29 PM.

  2. #422
    @Tanaria, @Mace @Hellspawn and @Combatbulter

    There are many facets of races that are there, because they've been mentioned as a huge part of the race in the past or present, that survived to the present and play a role.. but you just don't see it. doesn't mean it isn't there and isn't large.

    Prime examples:

    1. Farstrider blood elves - plays a huge role, but you have very little in the blood elf presentation focusing or highlighting it.. but it's there.
    2. Light side blood elf paladins and priests - this is another big part of the race, that up until WoD, was mentioned as being there, but little to nothing was shown in game, until they started homing down on it

    3. Draenei arcane - this is a huge part the Eredar are great at, and masters 25,000 years ago, their greatest achievements, like the night elves are in the distant part, but the skill and expertise is still apart of the race - it's there, and been mentioned, just not brought out as blizzard's largely only focused on the priest and paladin light bits so far - but it's there

    4. Draenei technologists - this is also another huge part, seen in their buildings and tech, but it's not been focused on seriously in the draenei yet - do we assume because we've not seen much that it's a tiny part

    As for night elves, both the arcane and Elune have not been focused much on till cata and Legion and BFA - it was almost entirely druid focus, but the lore on the night elven civilization, magic users, the Shen'dralar etc is all there, then they started showing us bits in cata and legion, .. as for Elune, she's been a huge part too in the lore, but all we saw was druid still the night warrior quest started showing us more of Elune. Technically it started in Legion with CoEn - but even there they didn't delve much into the lore for the quests,


    So we should know by now there is a lot of stuff that is core to races that haven't always been in the spotlight in wow. And usually people miss it if it's not in the opening levels the race is introduced. Some races like draenei, and night elves, blood elves too, have a lot of stuff written into them that wow doesn't really show fully - because it spends so much time showing us humans and orcs.. but its has introduced to us these big facets of the other races and it seems to have this habit of switching to them for a while .. Blood elf focus now has been the Light for some time, Night elf was the mages, but now is Elune after being almost completely druidic in the first 6 years.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Perfect time to focus on Farstriders and get some scars/tattoos and rough beards - in customisation

    Speaking of which, night elves can get their Elune arcane stars tattoos which would be great for both the Priest fantasy and the Highborne/arcane fantasy - very night elf - and the thing is, it doesn't look out of place on a druid, because it's more a race attribute thing, not restricted to the arcane or Elune even though both are the source -- druids also use arcane and even have an Elune talent or 3.

  3. #423
    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    @Tanaria, @Mace @Hellspawn and @Combatbulter

    There are many facets of races that are there, because they've been mentioned as a huge part of the race in the past or present, that survived to the present and play a role.. but you just don't see it. doesn't mean it isn't there and isn't large.

    Prime examples:

    1. Farstrider blood elves - plays a huge role, but you have very little in the blood elf presentation focusing or highlighting it.. but it's there.
    2. Light side blood elf paladins and priests - this is another big part of the race, that up until WoD, was mentioned as being there, but little to nothing was shown in game, until they started homing down on it

    3. Draenei arcane - this is a huge part the Eredar are great at, and masters 25,000 years ago, their greatest achievements, like the night elves are in the distant part, but the skill and expertise is still apart of the race - it's there, and been mentioned, just not brought out as blizzard's largely only focused on the priest and paladin light bits so far - but it's there

    4. Draenei technologists - this is also another huge part, seen in their buildings and tech, but it's not been focused on seriously in the draenei yet - do we assume because we've not seen much that it's a tiny part

    As for night elves, both the arcane and Elune have not been focused much on till cata and Legion and BFA - it was almost entirely druid focus, but the lore on the night elven civilization, magic users, the Shen'dralar etc is all there, then they started showing us bits in cata and legion, .. as for Elune, she's been a huge part too in the lore, but all we saw was druid still the night warrior quest started showing us more of Elune. Technically it started in Legion with CoEn - but even there they didn't delve much into the lore for the quests,


    So we should know by now there is a lot of stuff that is core to races that haven't always been in the spotlight in wow. And usually people miss it if it's not in the opening levels the race is introduced. Some races like draenei, and night elves, blood elves too, have a lot of stuff written into them that wow doesn't really show fully - because it spends so much time showing us humans and orcs.. but its has introduced to us these big facets of the other races and it seems to have this habit of switching to them for a while .. Blood elf focus now has been the Light for some time, Night elf was the mages, but now is Elune after being almost completely druidic in the first 6 years.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Perfect time to focus on Farstriders and get some scars/tattoos and rough beards - in customisation

    Speaking of which, night elves can get their Elune arcane stars tattoos which would be great for both the Priest fantasy and the Highborne/arcane fantasy - very night elf - and the thing is, it doesn't look out of place on a druid, because it's more a race attribute thing, not restricted to the arcane or Elune even though both are the source -- druids also use arcane and even have an Elune talent or 3.
    It's really simple, blizzard have told us the Shen'dralar are the kaldorei empire's most revered arcanists
    they survived the legion invasion and sundering intact
    They thrived for 9,000 years before their city fell into ruin
    and for all for the 10,000 years up to current they were feverishly studying the arcane
    They are very careful about keeping their skills sharp
    By the time of WoD, Legion, and BFA, the Darnasisan mages are properly contributing to efforts and infact take over from human mages for the alliance magecraft implying they are better indeed in the BFA assault, while we see human mages, we see a lot of void elf and night elf mages amongst the alliance forces. While not Shen'dralar, it is a testament that these guys have caught up so quickly. I mean they were already causing trouble to the horde with only a few weeks training in cata. And this man thinks they are weak, meanwhile failing ot actually consider what he is been shown is saying. All he sees is a blood elf showing off, not realsing seriously it's nothing to brag about beating people who've only been a few weeks in training, rather than seeing that those very few weeks old in their long put aside art, were able to cause that much trouble to your faction forces.. in so short a time, speaks of incredible talent and speed.

    We aren't shown ANY of this in game - but we are told ALL of it.

    Just because we aren't shown doesn't mean it's not there, blizzard is notorious for not showing everything and often favouring a few races.. and until Legion really, night elves weren't shown much.

    Even in Legion, there is o much of night elves to show, they essentially ignored the Darnassian faction, but they did show some of the new Highborne, no Shen'dralar though, they showed the Highborne leader, of the Darnassians, also the Shen'dralar leader in the BFA horde fight, (which isn't the canon fight btw) and that's it. night elf Darnassian faction mages are shown in combat in 8.x assaults, but we see other night elves like Farondis, Moonguard and Nightborne in action a lot in Legion.

    Even in Dire Maul in classic and cata wee didn't really see the Shen'dralar fight. Totherldrinn is not a mage Highborne, though at least he doesn't use magic spells despite being the leader of an illustrious group - maybe he wasn't the original leader and stole the spot being consumed by Immol'thar's influence.. who knows.


    However Tanaria's claim that they are weak because he hasn't seen what they did is just /rolleyes to me.

  4. #424
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Snip.
    Just like your claim that the Sin'dorei have no arcane Magic mastery or legacy.

    Complete /eyeroll.

  5. #425
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    Just like your claim that the Sin'dorei have no arcane Magic mastery or legacy.

    Complete /eyeroll.
    Wow. You’ve become delusional. Stating things I never said. Either that or you mis read

    Especially when I stated the exact opposite.

    Sometimes we make mistakes, other times we are so blinded by our own b/s we literally only see what we want to see and not what the person actually wrote

    Which one are you Tanaria?

  6. #426
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Wow. You’ve become delusional. Stating things I never said. Either that or you mis read

    Especially when I stated the exact opposite.

    Sometimes we make mistakes, other times we are so blinded by our own b/s we literally only see what we want to see and not what the person actually wrote

    Which one are you Tanaria?
    Which one are you Mace?
    Rather than deny the lore. Just find admirable things about the blood elves that are true. Blizzard out a lot into them, you’ll find something.

    It’s just not arcane magic, night elves have done a lot more there and gone further.


    You make a mistake, now trying to blame me for it.
    Just admit it - you don't know blood elf lore. It's fine. I'm open to not knowing Tauren lore and the fullness of Orc lore.
    Last edited by Tanaria; 2021-11-14 at 10:54 AM.

  7. #427
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    Which one are you Mace?
    Rather than deny the lore. Just find admirable things about the blood elves that are true. Blizzard out a lot into them, you’ll find something.

    It’s just not arcane magic, night elves have done a lot more there and gone further.


    You make a mistake, now trying to blame me for it.
    Just admit it - you don't know blood elf lore. It's fine. I'm open to not knowing Tauren lore and the fullness of Orc lore.
    I didn’t say blood elves don’t have any arcane magic mastery or legacy. I said the opposite.

    If you are reading my stating that the Kaldorei did more to mean the blood elves have none, then you are not reading correctly- which is alarming in itself. How can we trust your judgement ?

    It’s like you lose basic reasoning when it comes to blood elves. Rational thinking is gone. I literally say they are great at the arcane. But do you want me to say they are the greatest? Is that what this is about ?. Sorry that’s not what Warcraft shows.

    Great? yes! One of the best races? yes. Greatest ? No
    Last edited by Mace; 2021-11-14 at 11:09 AM.

  8. #428
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    I didn’t say blood elves don’t have any arcane magic mastery or legacy. I said the opposite.

    If you are reading my stating that the Kaldorei did more to mean the blood elves have none, then you are not reading correctly- which is alarming in itself. How can we trust your judgement ?

    It’s like you lose basic reasoning when it comes to blood elves. Rational thinking is gone. I literally say they are great at the arcane. But do you want me to say they are the greatest? Is that what this is about ?. Sorry that’s not what Warcraft shows.

    Great? yes! One of the best races? yes. Greatest ? No
    It also doesn't show the night elves as the greatest on Azeroth. The difference here is each highborne sector specialised in it's own thing. Suramar's Highborne went after powerful artifacts, Zin-Azshari Highborne used their prowess to unearth new Arcane methods. Naga unearth Void and Water magics, whilst Thalassians, mainly Blood Elves, have gone into Blood Magic and create large mana bombs. (Likely why Naga and Thalassians are alike in this regard.) Shen'dralar processed the Queen's demands in secret. Shandaral Highborne - well, nobody cares about them, but they went into Crystal magic and wanting to steal from the Dragons.
    When you break them down and take them away, one by one - what we're left with, as far as the original Highborne are just the processors, but I don't know what that means. When we see them, they all just seem to be crazy librarians, with some getting triggered over a missing book. I mean, did they just write down the Queen's plans and locked them away and then the Queen went back to Zin-Azshari to tell the Zin-Azshari Highborne what the latest plans were?

    If Argus and AU Draenor were anything to go by, the Draenei/Lightforged take the spot of the greatest Arcanists known to us.
    Maybe Ethereals come second?

    And trusting my view and judgement? I mean, this coming from the same person who supported (and likely still supports) the Horde Elves having nothing and the Alliance Elves having everything - including Quel'Thalas and Suramar, as well as Lordaeron and Highmountain and not giving the Horde anything to compensate, because "THAT'S TOO MUCH!!!" Don't talk to me about bias, when you have form and that still reeks to this day. (You and Ravenmoon will likely forever be mocked for that.)
    Last edited by Tanaria; 2021-11-14 at 11:27 AM.

  9. #429
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    It also doesn't show the night elves as the greatest on Azeroth. The difference here is each highborne sector specialised in it's own thing. Suramar's Highborne went after powerful artifacts, Zin-Azshari Highborne used their prowess to unearth new Arcane methods. Naga unearth Void and Water magics, whilst Thalassians, mainly Blood Elves, have gone into Blood Magic and create large mana bombs. (Likely why Naga and Thalassians are alike in this regard.) Shen'dralar processed the Queen's demands in secret. Shandaral Highborne - well, nobody cares about them, but they went into Crystal magic and wanting to steal from the Dragons.
    When you break them down and take them away, one by one - what we're left with, as far as the original Highborne are just the processors, but I don't know what that means. When we see them, they all just seem to be crazy librarians, with some getting triggered over a missing book. I mean, did they just write down the Queen's plans and locked them away and then the Queen went back to Zin-Azshari to tell the Zin-Azshari Highborne what the latest plans were?
    Tanaria, Highborne and night elf arent two separate things or races, they are the same.


    They only become a separate thing when going into the breakaway Thalassians.. who were highborne who became high elves. - this group become a separate thing.

    Highborne are kaldorei and were the highest caste of nobles in the old system (old for Darnassians), (not old for Shen'drlaar or Nightborne).

    All things Highborne are Kaldorei, but not all things kaldorei are highborne.

  10. #430
    Night elves aren't weak in the arcane at all. I think quite the opposite - like all elves

    Darnassians don't have a large arcane influence or society. So spell casting doesn't benefit their society as much as it does others.

    However, their sub-culture groups, like the Highborne, would have within their own part of the city or their own city/area a very high arcane dominance through all their groups. I presume it would be just like it was in pre-sundering times, but think more Farondis style than Azshara style.


    Nightborne, a night elf sub-group are the most arcanised racial group. Moreso than blood elves.

    Blood elves have heavy arcane influence, but it's more prestige emphasis, as in the arcane is the most prestigious circle/group.. at least it was up till Kael'thas' reign given both Anasterian and Kael and the whole Sunstrider line are mages. Lor'themar is a ranger though, and Liadrin are Blood knight - so a shift has probably happened, as the majority of leadership is non-magister, it is still much higher than the Darnassians, but won't be as high amongst the Shen'dralar lead Highborne sub-culture and not the Nightborne.


    Would you or should you see much of it in the night elves?

    I'd like to throw this question to the topic readers and participants.

    Would you? - I don't know this depends entirely on blizzard
    Should you? - I think if they do this right you should see some amazing arcane heavy sections - like if they do up Eldre'thalas and it's Highborne run or the new night elf city has a Highborne section it would be full of arcane wonders.. but it also depends if they continue on the original vision of the night elves

    i.e. night elf race = huge diverse group with Priesthood, druids, Highborne, Moonguard, DHs - bringing all the elements from both pre-sundering and long vigil and having representation.

    1. Most of the forests which is most of the land would be full of nature magic wonder - more so than other elven forests, but they would have some
    2. You would have at least one and at most 2 major cities (small for a big race), and they would be highborne dominated as this si where that group mostly have their activity - so it would have high arcane influence
    3. You would have lots of temples - temples in the city where the priesthood has training grounds, buildings for the sentinels and other groups, as well as the main temple - like in Darnassus and Suramar, but also temples in the forest which would be the only developed structures like in Val'sharah.


    NIght elves = Everything: Forest magic wonder, arcane magic wonder, Priesthood wonder in high degrees and strong Illidari element
    Blood elves = Arcane magic wonder, lots more cities, martial Paladin order, but they are more into blood magics, fire in addition to arcane whereas night elves/borne do star magic
    Nightborne = arcane magic wonder, advanced city
    Void elves = void and arcane magic wonder.


    They will all have arcane wonder - night elf and nightborne would have similar, blood elves would have the Thalassian version, while void elves the void version.
    Night elves do have historically are more developed priesthood and nature magic - priesthood hasn't been shown strong in any of the Thalassians, neither has nature or nature magic. They have it, it's just not very strong.


    The thing is, the night elves, thanks to the Highborne and Moonguard groups would have a highly advanced arcane section, it just won't be as widespread as blood elves and Nightborne, but night elves are the largest and oldest group - this has to mean something both in getting a better balance, and more development. Whiles the Nightborne are as advanced and old, because of their story, they don't have the balance night elves have not having had druids or priests. But with the island night elves helping them that should fixx. Depends on how much blizzard want to incorporate or show the druids and priest helpig out.

    With the Danrassians, they literally get a highly advanced pre-sundering group, joint them with full expertise, and if you add the Farondis then, their arcane component is going to be at the highest level, basically like the Nightborne and better in some ways, worse in others.

    Is this a good or bad thing?

    My conclusion is that it's neither, it's just the story. It's like the Zandalari trolls, they'd be in general both more complete and more advanced than the other troll groups including the Darkspepar, but on an individual level, they're aren't really any better, this is because the darkspear are a particualrly good, even great group of trolls that are very special. This is also the case with the Blood elves, void elves and Nightborne, they may all not be as complete or together as the night elves, but individual they are ery good, they are the groups that made it well.

    other elven sub-groups that aren't as good or successful for all their magic and dark powers are:
    1. Naga
    2. San'layn
    3. Darkfallen
    4. Fal'dorei
    5. Wretched (whatever became of them)
    6. Satyr.

    These groups have some enormous strengths, but are not individually or corporately on the calibre of blood elves, nightborne, void elves or the kaldorei.


    How Should We View Them?

    I think rather than argue needlessly on who is more powerful, stronger or weaker, clearly there are different attributes to all. The player races believe it or not are all roughly on the same level, but their cultures and societies are on vastly different stages.

    This is just how the lore is, you can't expect a 15,000 year old elven race of individuals to be on the same level of say a 7,000 year old one or a 5,000 year old human one And because races are different, like trolls are different from orcs, different from humans, those differences would lend to greater strengths or manifestations of it in their various areas, but if you are playable your race basically is the chosen one.

    As a blood elf fan, I have no problem with night elves understandably being more rounded or having more than us. We are a smaller group, but I like blood elves more because they're prettier, their colour scheme is better, and with smaller and less they've achieved more. So while night elves might overall have the ideal standard, i know that in time blood elves will surpass them if they keep up the current rate.

    I also realise that goals are different. Night elves of the Darnassian group don't care about progress as much - if you think about it, they've seen it all, so it won't hold the same fascination. However, we must also remember some groups of night elves, like the Highborne and mage groups will push for developments, ensuring night elf arcane mastery is at the top alongside blood elves and Nightborne, their society won't universally care. The Highborne would do their thing, some civilians would love it, most won't care, their magic department and city sections would advance, but it won't matter to priests, druids and a whole bunch of Hyjal NElves - they can do their things - in this way we will see it or should see it amongst the night elves (we know some NElf fans love this) but it's not the only thing. You will also see great forest magic and forest design developments as well as Elune ones like the Night Warrior and Font of Elune from the Cathedral of Eternal night. This is fine, they're supposed to be as big and diverse as humans. they've seen it all, as much as they may want, the arcane wielders won't ever hold the universal prestige and superiority they had in the pre-sundering time. They can become highly respected (I reckon Farondis would be as revered as Tyrnande, Malfurion and Illidan) especially if blizzard make him a super powerful sorceror, but a good one.. however it would never dominate more than the priesthood or druids like it did at the end of Azshara's reign (i.e. invasion period)- which is a good point from Mace.

    I think all elves, in particular night elves will always do beautiful things, whether it's forests grown and planted by druids, or cities and temples of marbles or wooden homes, they would look amazing - I like the Architecture of the night elf cities and temples...

    Just like I expect both blood elf and void elf architecture to be amazing too, in a different way, and when they do things, whether tents or palaces, they'd look really amazing -because elves are a beautiful people, that value excellence and beauty. Night elves on the whole may ntot care about progress, but I reckon they love beauty and so far what we have seen confirms this.

    I don't understand why people think night elves are some savage race that aren't magical and don't care about beauty - they're elves, @ravenmoon is correct, these attributes are where Thalassians and other elves get them from and nothing in the long vigil or highborne night elf groups or the artwork for them suggests night elves stopped caring about beauty. I don't think druids are extravagant about beauty of buildings and clothes, but they care about the beauty of the forest extravagantly. Priest care about the beauty of the temple buildings and beauty of soul and character. Highborne care about beauty of buildings and the beauty of the body and clothes a lot.

    But they all care about beauty.

    Beauty
    Magic
    Nature

    those are the 3 elven pillars. I didn't add benevolence or being good, because this is only amongst the playable group.

  11. #431
    @Beloren

    The main people who get night elves wrong are the big fantasy players that aren’t interested in them, especially the blood elf ones

    Because they keep thinking WoW is like DND fantasies that non human races are only about one thing.

    But wow has built some races and fleshed out others to actually be proper races not just mainly one thing. Even some developers have missed this. The night elves have two main themes, the arcane priest/Mage civilisation theme and then the forest one. The forest side was shown first but the other was a part of their lore and development. But some think the forest vibe is the only thing i.e one track pony just like DnD.

    So because the first visual image of night elves was forest and trees, these fans pegged them as forest elves and ignored the entire insight of the written story that showed them as dark elves first with an equally strong forest elf side.
    I guess it’s a first impression thing and for visual based products fans will respond more to what they see than read. So blizzard actually unveiling much of the night elves through books rather than visually (until Legion) is the heart of this confusion here.

    The adapting of the concept that non human races by comparison are only about one thing, comes from older fans more versed in fantasy genre because wow borrows a lot of inspiration from DND and so it’s easy to fall into that trap.

    TBC development did not help because for a while it really seemed most races were about one thing.

    Eg. Draenei came as the priest race, so outside humans, we saw literally no priests lore developed. Not for night elves for which the priesthood is bigger than Druidism nor for trolls. This is despite Draenei having a strong arcane background (eventually shown in legion 7.3 moreso than WoD) and are also great magical technology race - eeen visually (just like the night elven star arcane magic - that is full on visually in their pre-sundering mages, all thier priests and their druids - including the druid class based on them) but almost zero focus in stories/highlights of it or it being brought into the characters with mention or focus - and this is just one of many examples where the lore team falls short of doing and putting in game what it has written in the lore - but the art team and voice over teams capture.

    Humans were the only ones that maintained their broader diverse origin for much of the visual characterisation of TBC. When you think of humans you don’t peg them as just warriors - you feel them as a race that is big on magic, warriors, priests and paladins. You are also not confused that they have several societies. Some societies like Dalston are very magical, others like Lordaeron are very Light and paladins focused. Others like Stormwind very warrior and priest focused. Night elves have just as much depth. It’s just that little of it is shown outside the books and the bits that were shown came much much later on. But they drew from the books released early on and written before classic. Proving they are part of the race.
    They just didn’t invest the time to show it till much later on, by which time most of these guys thought night elves were just about the one forest thing having never read their lore. But only seen starting area and outside starting area until Cata, had only seen night elf druids. If they had seen as many might elf priests and mages and blizzard had taken the time to show this side like they did for humans and orcs (warriors, shaman, hunters and rogues) we won’t be having this discussion. And others will rightly chime in pointing out this isn't only true for night elves.. Outside humans and orcs it has largely been the case. However we have seen night elves, trolls, dwarves and Draenei fleshed out a lot more in time. Tauren on gnomes finally got some movement too. Though not much in terms of diversity - but then those races aren't diverse as say night elves.


    It is only later that blood elves were emphasised to be more than mages, the loa priest spirituality of trolls was emphasised much later though in there from the start and the arcane dark elf base of the night elves was brought out visually also much later, though it's in their opening race descritipion in the very WC3 manual and the massive lore WotA trilogy volume has more lore on night elves than WC3 and Classic combined. But it wasn't seen nor absorved because most didn't read it..

    But by this time most people like Tanaria were ignoring what they were seeing later on and not factoring this wider breadth.

    Tanaria seems to ignore completely that a core part of the blood elves is also the light, but as Paladins this times where it is priests with high elves. The Farstriders are another core part, but the way he goes on you would think blood elves were the total arcane race TBC emphasised. They aren’t. They are more than that

    Most people ignore that lore wise Draenei are mages on par with elves, while their lore mentions this, the game only talks about the alight and their priesthood. While it shows their technology little quest info emphasised this.

    So it is not that the night elf race isn’t strong at the arcane or it is a huge part of the race and the lore, same with Elune. It’s just that people aren’t aware because they don’t read. And expansions like the altered night elf cataclysm run doesn’t show this well. As an alliance the Mage change is mostly visible at higher levels. I’m fact you see more of it on the horde side. And in Legion it came very late. But because Nightborne went horse and don’t fit the forest visual of level 1-20, the fans who don’t read or are too stuck in their ways don’t even associate the Nightborne with their night elf core.

    For me who knows the written lore well it’s absurd. But they honestly can’t see it. Never mind the star and moon emphasis in Suramar, a cinematic that tells you this. The city full of night elf statues, savers and nocturnal purple night elves. But because they are fancy and the bodies are skinnier with the ear tips the only physical difference, same degree of change visually in other allied races from their progenitor race, these people miss it.


    So it is partly blizzards fault either for sharing the story in too many media platforms, but then the fans have no excuse. I found out the information, so can they.

    The absolute worse are the ones that you tell and show and they STILL deny it.

    The Darnassians have a powerful core of night elf arcane workers back with them, the Shen'dralar night elf faction. This is part of the night elf fantasy even if Darnassian society doesn’t have arcane practice at its core anymore, the arcane is still core to the race and it’s fantasy. The practice is just not as prevalent society wide which is a difference between Blood elves, Nightborne, night elf highborne communities where this is a noticeable characteristic. This if fine.. that is how the lore puts it, and it's good you have a variation here too, but it certainly doesn't mean night elf magic wielders are weaker than blood elf or nightborne ones, and it certainly doesn't mean that night elves can't or won't do great cities that have a lot of arcane wonders the shend'ralar do - i would think they'd be even more spcatcular, becuase the highborne will try to impress the people and win back their esteem.. the difference is that you shoudl see these things in a great nighte lf city, but the populace will not be like it was in the stories of Azsahra's pre-sundering reign near the end and the nightborne night elves you saw before 7.2 where they are fawning over one indvidual and oly one form of magic

    This ist he differnece the change has caused and actually it has made night elves better. Like you point out, this result means you should seee deeply nature magical forest, and highly magical cities full of arcane and great temples - they have avenue for all 3 in ways the other elven factions who are smaller (like the Nightborne or the blood elve or void elves) won't have - and the way the night elf society would behave and operate would be very different too - it would be like the earlier stages of the pre-sundering era again where Elune, druidism and the arcane were all on equal footing amongst the populace. Elune sat on top because all developments and connections to both druidism (Cenarius) and the arcane (mages) came from the priesthood.

    So while you have a strong arcane branch with males and druidism too, demon hunters too, actually it's the female dominated Elune priests who have warriors that can match DHs, spell caster priests that can out power mages, life focused healers that match any druid - thatactually shine the brightest here even though the dominance of arcane and nature are famous because of the Long vigil and pre-sundering eras.


    Conclusion
    This doesn’t mean the arcane is t a core part of both the night elf race and group.

    Also they don’t realise that within the Darnassian Highborne group the arcane is very prevalent and because of this group with its great expertise night elves should and will have a highly advanced arcane component and this happens easily without the arcane dominating the race.


    But these fans do t read. So even while I explain the difference between practice and magic core or arcane spell practice being core I society vs the arcane being a part of the race.

    Or explain how night elves don’t need to have their entire race full of arcane spell casters are have then at the top of the society to actually be as good as other elf races or better - these guys don’t understand.

    Because the naysayers are lazy. They don’t read what you write but argue against you making them sound really foolish. You can tell they’ve either skimmed or not thought about what you’ve written because they actually don’t respond to your points just write their dogma again.

    I am glad you seem to take on board what is written (at least on occassion) seen you sometimes change your mind after a long explanation. It proves you read. Or at least even when you disagree, your responses show you've actually read it.

    But this is the 2 line age. The majority of gamers here don’t read more than that. Most lose their attention span after that. Could be because they are too busy to do much reading over a product that is best enjoyed played. Or they just aren’t diligent people because they haven’t been disciplined to read. So they lazily (or quickly) skip.

    The genre use to attract the reader type gamers, but wow simplified it enough to attract the wider gaming community who really will never read long texts (what was blizzard thinking not voicing their game quests?????). And some of them are very intelligent and smart. But obviously not wise to come into to a forum and talk about something you refuse to read up on or refuse to read the responses of a person you are disagreeing generally, even if it's because you are lazy. Even if you are intelligent, you can be foolish. Or do a foolish thing. And you can be smart in many areas but behave stupidly in this or others.
    Last edited by Mace; 2021-11-19 at 08:51 AM.

  12. #432
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    SNIP
    That's because Blood Elves are an extremely Mage based race. Every expansion since TBC has seen Blood Elf Mages play a role in something. I didn't write the lore.

    The Blood Knights only started playing a major role since WoD and the character growth of Lady Liadrin, as it was her who led the Sin'dorei force (alongside a Sin'dorei Blood Mage), to Draenor, then alongside the Grand Magister, led the Blood Knights, Magisters and Farstriders to Suramar, then used the same force in Arathi.

    Nelfs just aren't a big "Mage" race. I mean, the recent Shadowlands novella - the Shen'dralar leader wasn't even part of the night elf leadership, when they met with Thrall, Baine and Calia. They have an Arcane branch, but it's not a huge tree (pardon the pun), but that's not to say you can't have interest in it - the smaller branches can be more interesting than the core sectors.
    You and Ravenmoon have both expressed a love for night elf mages and blood elf warlocks - both small branches of their respective societies.

    Personally, I prefer the core sectors of each elf-society. (I don't have a Nightborne Mage, because I've got Sin'dorei and Ren'dorei for that class, but I do have a Nightborne Warlock and Nightborne Priest.)
    In the main, I prefer the more "scruffy" classes, on the Alliance (Druid, Death Knight, Shaman, Rogue, Warrior), but I do have a Void Elf Mage.

    I've never denied the Draenei arcane-mastery, because if they went full "arcane" again, then the Elves are history.

    And again - your problem is you like an Alliance race, but on the faction that is "Humans and the rest." Alliance Mage lore is mainly associated with named characters like Jaina, because she is a favorite at Blizzard HQ. This, in turns, puts a lot of emphasis on Human Mages, as we saw in Legion with the Kirin Tor.
    Whenever we see nelf or Draenei Mages, it's mainly ghosts or past echoes from thousands of years past.

    That's not good if you want to generate excitement. I want to be excited for Ren'dorei Mage lore, but if Blizzard don't change the Alliance story, then my Sin'dorei Mage will remain my most powerful and my main.

  13. #433
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    That's because Blood Elves are an extremely Mage based race. Every expansion since TBC has seen Blood Elf Mages play a role in something. I didn't write the lore.
    You seem to care only about the blood elf mage base to the exclusion of all else. yes they are mage based, but they are also light based and they hunt in forests and love that - it is also a huge part of them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    The Blood Knights only started playing a major role since WoD and the character growth of Lady Liadrin, as it was her who led the Sin'dorei force (alongside a Sin'dorei Blood Mage), to Draenor, then alongside the Grand Magister, led the Blood Knights, Magisters and Farstriders to Suramar, then used the same force in Arathi.
    yes they did, but the light was as big a part of the high elves as the arcane, high elves were famous for being the best mages and priests on the alliance.

    After the scourge attack in forming the blood elves, blizzard writes the loss of faith in the light, but instead of complete abandonment they chose instead to try and force light magic - and that is an entire large arc of the blood elf story - which the results grow over time as Liadrin is developed switching blood elves from being a priest, mage and hunter major race to a mage, paladin and hunter major race.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    Nelfs just aren't a big "Mage" race. I mean, the recent Shadowlands novella - the Shen'dralar leader wasn't even part of the night elf leadership, when they met with Thrall, Baine and Calia. They have an Arcane branch, but it's not a huge tree (pardon the pun), but that's not to say you can't have interest in it - the smaller branches can be more interesting than the core sectors.
    You and Ravenmoon have both expressed a love for night elf mages and blood elf warlocks - both small branches of their respective societies.
    That's both stupid and wrong, NElves are a huge mage race. The Darnassian society is not big on mages, but all that lore, it's a huge a part of the race and the arcane has been playing a central role in ALL night elves for 15,000 years... notice i said the arcane. .i didn't say arcane spell casting and practice. And notice how I emphasized all night elves - meaning included the Darnassian group, and all the other groups like the Shen'drlaar, the Nightborne in Suramar, the Moonguard, the demon hunters, the druids, the priesthood groups etc.



    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    Personally, I prefer the core sectors of each elf-society. (I don't have a Nightborne Mage, because I've got Sin'dorei and Ren'dorei for that class, but I do have a Nightborne Warlock and Nightborne Priest.)
    In the main, I prefer the more "scruffy" classes, on the Alliance (Druid, Death Knight, Shaman, Rogue, Warrior), but I do have a Void Elf Mage.
    Yet you fail to grasp the broader picture - not all races are a 1-focus themed one. Void elves are a void themed focus race, Nightborne are an arcane themed focused race. But both night elves and blood elves have more to them than one theme focus. Especially night elves who are more on the level of humans in the diversity and mastery as well as scope and breadth of their race and multiple factions.

    You should never ignore this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    I've never denied the Draenei arcane-mastery, because if they went full "arcane" again, then the Elves are history.
    I wasn't saying you were ignoring this. but again you demonstrate you don't understand the point I am conveying.


    The Draenei are highly skilled mages, how large a role it plays in their society currently is unknown because blizzard hasn't highlighted it. Blizzard doesn't show the full picture of a race.. you need to give them time, humans we see a much fuller picture as they've been around since the start of the warcraft series. You may not think of draenei as at ech race either, you think of gnomes, but they are both an arcane and tech race as well as Light based one, as a minor race (in terms of focus), they really only used them for the light.. they do this in a very DnD esque style of presentation - this may be partly to time constraints..

    but we have all seen night elves, trolls, blood elves, draenei greatly expanded upon since their introduction campaigns when they first show up...and with night elves, you have less of an excuse because their dark elf arcane and Elune fantasy is written about extensively in the books long before it eventually gets shown.

    But you are being the absolute worse, because you've seen it been shown and you make comments like that.. this is post cat/legion and BFA - you should know better.

    But I'm not surprised, the way you were going on about weak night elves earlier and the supremacy of the blood elves = you don't care f or proving anything except that blood elves are super amazing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    And again - your problem is you like an Alliance race, but on the faction that is "Humans and the rest." Alliance Mage lore is mainly associated with named characters like Jaina, because she is a favorite at Blizzard HQ. This, in turns, puts a lot of emphasis on Human Mages, as we saw in Legion with the Kirin Tor.
    Whenever we see nelf or Draenei Mages, it's mainly ghosts or past echoes from thousands of years past.

    That's not good if you want to generate excitement. I want to be excited for Ren'dorei Mage lore, but if Blizzard don't change the Alliance story, then my Sin'dorei Mage will remain my most powerful and my main.
    You are being un-necessarily dismissive again and ignoring the broader context. Alliance and all of warcraft lore has switched to being character focused, but to claim that mage lore of humans is entirely focused in characters like Jaina is meaningless when all class lore nowadays in warcraft is focused through legendary characters and at the same time, blizzard has built entire factions and communities based on classes amongst races too..

    For mages:
    Humans - Dalaran society - is an entire nation based on the arcane
    Night elves - Shen'dralar of Eldre'thalas, Moonguard of moonguard stronghold, Farondis of Azsuna and the Nightborne of Suramar are 4 entire arcane magic based factions
    Draenei - we aren't specified much on their arcane group - they are aa very small community, but it's interesting we know more about their shaman lore in game than their arcane lore.. yet outside the game from description we know their magical arcane portion is far greater.

    Because the text bloody says so, even if the game takes 25 years to show it.. this is what you aren't factoring . .you ignore the text far too easily because of what you see visually and don't factor that what you see usually isn't always updated and isn't fully reflective, the rest is told to you, and often enough it eventually gets shown visually and then expounded upon in the quests and focus .

    That's the entire point of my reply above to Beloren.

    Thalassian elves are a race that has all their factions having arcane representation - but they are divided differently, and though they do, the arcane is not the only thing.

  14. #434
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    SNIP
    You seem to be in a bit of denial about the Alliance story and how bad it is, in terms of over emphasis on Humans.

    Maybe you should look at the elephant in the room, that is the Humans, then come back to me. (It's not Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei being Horde.)

    And I love Sin'dorei Magister lore, no less than you love nelf mages.
    Hell, my 3 best characters are my Blood Elf Fire/Arcane Mage, Blood Elf Holy Paladin and my Blood Elf MM Hunter. Why? Because I wanted the core class that represented each core section of Sin'dorei society.

    And you seem to be under the impression that the Moon Guard is a huge unit. It's not now. It's almost extinct, with only 3 or 4 surviving members. The majority of the organisation actually switched to Druidism, after the Sundering. The original organisation is almost extinct, with most of their last few survivors being killed by the Shal'dorei.
    Your focus seems to be on what was and not what it is now. I do remember you and Raven wanting the Druidic focus to be toned down and the Mage focus toned up, and you were met with a lot of backlash from that - especially from night elf fans.

    You don't get that with me. I don't waffle on about Sin'dorei Warlocks, because might have been a big thing in TBC. That is over and what we've got now is alot of stuff that doesn't involve Sin'dorei using fel or summoning demons.
    Last edited by Tanaria; 2021-11-19 at 09:32 AM.

  15. #435
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    You seem to be in a bit of denial about the Alliance story and how bad it is, in terms of over emphasis on Humans.
    Bad is subjective. You won't think that bad if you loved humans, but as you're not an alliance fan, and I don't care about humans, I think you well off regarding your above accusation.

    I am acutely aware of the neglect of the night elves and have on this very page in no less than the last 3 responses alluded to the fact that it is this neglect that has warped and derailed the perception of night elves as a whole from what the lore clearly shows. IF the devs had focused less on humans and not ditched the alliance races in favour of the horde and humans, we would have seen a lot more Elune priests and night elven arcane (whether priest/druid/mage/moonguard /highborne etc) action and representation much sooner and more often. They alwao won't have transferred or copied many night elven aspects into the blood elves... or at least would have shown the night elven ones too.. rather than the lame ducks they were in Ghostlands and other vs encounters.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    Maybe you should look at the elephant in the room, that is the Humans, then come back to me. (It's not Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei being Horde.)
    If you can't tell my level of awareness on this from the reply above.. then you've once more lowered my regard of you in our exchanges

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    And I love Sin'dorei Magister lore, no less than you love nelf mages.
    I'm convinced you love them more, your love for them and arguing on night elf arcane matters is the only reason I'm writing so much more on them than other aspects of the night elves, the alliance or other races in wow.

    This doesn't mean I love them deeply, I just hate mis-representation and incorrect putting down of something or a group when I know the information I am aware of tells a different story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    Hell, my 3 best characters are my Blood Elf Fire/Arcane Mage, Blood Elf Holy Paladin and my Blood Elf MM Hunter. Why? Because I wanted the core class that represented each core section of Sin'dorei society.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    You don't get that with me. I don't waffle on about Sin'dorei Warlocks, because might have been a big thing in TBC. That is over and what we've got now is alot of stuff that doesn't involve Sin'dorei using fel or summoning demons.
    Sin'dorei warlocks are not comparable to night elf mages. There is barely any lore on sin'dorei warlocks and they have no organisation that blizzard has deigned to share with us.

    The Darnassian might not have a large mage group or arcane spell casting prevalence amongst it's non mage community, but the night elves have an entire civilization and era full of this, not to mention full of arcane related assets like the Well of Eternity and Moonwell, and arcane spells transcending the mage class to the priest and druid class too - such is the influence.

    Furthermore, the Shen'dralar Highborne are an entire nation faction of night elf mages, far beyond blood elf warlocks it's not even a comparison, furthermore they're organised and mentioned a lot in the night elf lore, especially in the cataclysm remake where they actually build up the Highborne cast making it an even more mage focused order than it ever was (seeing not all Highborne are mages).. they are a kaldorei pre-sundering culture living amongst the post-long vigil Darnassian culture with growing numbers. Especially when you factor in they had the least causalities in the war of thorns of all the other night elf groups and are thus likely now comparable in numbers to the Darnassian Elune followers, Darnassian loyal druids and other classes.

    Haven't even one on to the natural affinity night elves as a race have for the arcane, which if i remind you is where blood elves get it from, and how that affinity and natural disposition hasn't changed. Not using arcane magic for spells doesn't change your DNA, it didn't for the night elves in the north, they remained just as night elven as the ones in Eldre'thalas who had constantly been using it and the ones in Moonguard stronghold , and the only reason the ones in Suramar changed (and only a little at that ) was because they went so far as to actually drink it for food). The Darnassians were just out of practice, not less arcane capable or less arcane aptitude.
    Last edited by Mace; 2021-11-20 at 07:45 AM.

  16. #436
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Sin'dorei warlocks are not comparable to night elf mages. There is barely any lore on sin'dorei warlocks adn they have no organisation that blizzard has deiigned to share with us.

    The Darnassian might not have a large mage group or arcane spell casting prevalence amongst it's non mage community, but the night elves have an entire civilziation and era full of htis, not to mention full of arcane related assets like the WEll of Eternity and Moonwell, and arcane spells transcending hte mage class to the priest and druid class too - such is the influence.

    Furthermore, the Shen'dralar Highborne are an entire nation faction of night elf mages, far beyond blood elf warlocks it's not even a comparison, furthermore they're organised and mentioned a lot in the night elf lore, especially in the cataclysm remake where they actually build up the highborne cast making it an even more mage focused order than it ever was (seeing not all Highborne are mages).. they are a kaldorei pre-sundering culture living amongs tthe post-long vigil Darnassian culturewith growing numbers. Especially when you factor in they had the least causalities in the war of thorns of al lthe other night elf groups and are thus likely now comparable in numbers to the Darnassian Elune followers, Darnassian loyal druids and other classes.

    Haven't even one on to the natural affinity night elves as a race have for the arcane, which if i remind you is where blood elves get it from, and how that affinity and natural disposition hasn't changed. Not using arcane magic for spells doesn't change your DNA, it didn't for the night elves in the north, they remained just as night elven as the ones in Eldre'thalas who had constantly been using it and the ones in Moonguard stronghold , and the only reason the ones in Suramar changed (and only a little at that ) was because they went so far as to actually drink it for food). The Darnassians were just out of practice, not less arcane capable or less arcane aptitude.
    Actually, they do have an organisation - it's called the Sanctum.
    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/San...lvermoon_City)

    The Horde Blood Elf Warlocks were also, slightly involved with the Legion Class-order hall, but it was nothing to write home about and make a big deal over.

    And they are comparable to the current Alliance Night Elf Mages, because they have been culled thrice. (Twice by the Horde, once by Tortheldrin losing the plot.)

    Their numbers are all likely, very equal right now. That is where I draw my comparison between the two.

    Numbers wise, their are far more Sin'dorei Mages and Night Elf Druids. (The Moon Guard Magi are almost extinct. They don't build up the numbers of the Shen'dralar.)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    I'm convinced you love them more, your love for them and arguing on night elf aracne matters is the only reason I'm writing so much more on them than other aspects of the night elves, the alliance or other races in wow.

    This doesn't mean I love them deeply, I just hate mis-representation and incorrect putting down of something or a group when I know the information I am aware of tells a different story.
    Of course I love them more than nelf mages?

    I mean, my interest in the Blood Elf Mages comes from the very first quest giver on Sunstrider Isle, Magistrix Erona.
    My first thought, when I made my Blood Elf Paladin was "Hmm, what's a "Magistrix" and I was met with a large page, detailing Blood Elven Arcane/Magecraft, so naturally - I'd find this more interesting than a couple of night elf mages, getting killed by Immol'thar. Also, I didn't reach Level 60 in Vanilla, so the Dire Maul dungeons were not known to me.

    And I don't approve of the incorrect putting down of a group either - aka, the Magisters.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Bad is subjective. You won't think that bad if you loved humans, but as you're not an alliance fan, and I don't care about humans, I think you well off regarding your above accusation.

    I am acutely aware of the neglect of the night elves and have on this very page in no less than the last 3 responses alluded to the fact that it is this neglect that has warped and derailed the perception of night elves as a whole from what the lore clearly shows. IF the devs had focused less on humans and not ditched the alliance races in favour of the horde and humans, we would have seen a lot more Elune priests and night elven arcane (whether priest/druid/mage/moonguard /highborne etc) action and representation much sooner and more often. They alwao won't have transferred or copied many night elven aspects into the blood elves... or at least would have shown the night elven ones too.. rather than the lame ducks they were in Ghostlands and other vs encounteres.

    If you can't tell my level of awareness on this from the reply above.. then you've once more lowered my regard of you in our exchanges
    I doubt they would have put emphasis on the Night Elf Arcane side. They would have balanced things out much more sooner. I mean, Wrath of the Lich King, was an expansion that didn't involve the night elves to a large extent.
    It was obvious that the story would heavily involve the Humans and the Forsaken, along with the Sin'dorei as these races were the main ones to have been affected by Arthas.

    TBC was not the time to explore such a side as the Draenei and Blood Elves were the new races (and these were brand new, players had never been able to play as these before) so it's only natural that they put a lot of focus into them. Night Elven Druids still got some areas of lore, during TBC and obviously, Legion expanded on the Night Elf and Blood Elf Demon Hunters, giving options to players on who they wanted as their chief commanders.
    I naturally chose Kayn as I do like Illidan as a character and I wanted to play something that was very close to the Illidari that we were introduced to on Mardum. Altrius was a bit of a loner and he left like a loner.
    Last edited by Tanaria; 2021-11-19 at 04:06 PM.

  17. #437
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    Actually, they do have an organisation - it's called the Sanctum.
    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/San...lvermoon_City)

    The Horde Blood Elf Warlocks were also, slightly involved with the Legion Class-order hall, but it was nothing to write home about and make a big deal over.

    And they are comparable to the current Alliance Night Elf Mages, because they have been culled thrice. (Twice by the Horde, once by Tortheldrin losing the plot.)

    Their numbers are all likely, very equal right now. That is where I draw my comparison between the two.

    Numbers wise, their are far more Sin'dorei Mages and Night Elf Druids. (The Moon Guard Magi are almost extinct. They don't build up the numbers of the Shen'dralar.)
    Thanks for the information on the Sanctum, had totally forgotten about it.

    But I think the comparison is still not a good one.

    We don’t know real numbers and there is far more quest, LotR and activity around the Shen'dralar and Kaldorei than the warlock gif ruin. I mean Wolfheart is centred around their return. That’s a novel plus a lot. More in game lore.


    The only comparison that was arguably close was numbers. That’s it. Relevance, historical integration, lore etc. Obviously night elf mages have played an incomparable role to both the night elf race and the Darnassian faction than Sanctum warlocks have to blood elves.

    Sorry, it’s not a good comparison, nor even close.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post


    Of course I love them more than nelf mages?

    I mean, my interest in the Blood Elf Mages comes from the very first quest giver on Sunstrider Isle, Magistrix Erona.
    My first thought, when I made my Blood Elf Paladin was "Hmm, what's a "Magistrix" and I was met with a large page, detailing Blood Elven Arcane/Magecraft, so naturally - I'd find this more interesting than a couple of night elf mages, getting killed by Immol'thar. Also, I didn't reach Level 60 in Vanilla, so the Dire Maul dungeons were not known to me.

    And I don't approve of the incorrect putting down of a group either - aka, the Magisters.
    Well my first awareness of night elf arcane users came in the WC3 manual. I was fascinated by a race described as the most advanced magical civilisation, first to learn and master magic. I then got a lot more info from war if the ancients and blizzard portraying their civilization as the greatest on Azeroth surpassing modern ones.

    They were also born from magic. This was long before night elf mages were playable. The whole story of the Darnassians having survived the first legion invasion and the logical explanation of their long vigil arcane abstinence that ended in the Wc3 events actually whet my appetite to really see them restore their civilisation and arcane practice they had had to put aside.

    After seeing Silvermoon I was very interested in seeing what the night elf civilisation that was more advanced than the high elves was like.

    And really wanted to see all the facets of their society restored.

    So I was quite pleased with the Shen‘dralar showing up at level 69, disappointed it took 6 years to see the night elf story moved on from classic but glad the arcane was back.

    The greatest joy was seeing Suramar, pristine and not in ruins, and seeing very powerful and advance magic from night elves , in not just 1, but 3 groups. The Nightborne, the Moonguard and the Farondis. I felt it showed the playing community the level of the night elf arcane mastery quite well.


    I am just waiting for them to further develop both the priesthood and the Mage Highborne to suitable levels


    None of this takes away from me enjoying the druids or the blood elves or the void elves. I like em all. I just don’t like you making it out as if night elves aren’t good at or powerful in the arcane when the lore has told you about the Shen’dralar even though you haven’t seen it shown in game, but you’ve seen how powerful Nightborne, Moonguard and Farondis are and those are all night elven too. The power and mastery is quite visible.

    So you coming on and denying it or trivialising it is irritating.
    - - - Updated - - -


    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    I doubt they would have put emphasis on the Night Elf Arcane side. They would have balanced things out much more sooner.
    I have literally demonstrated to you this is not the case. You’ve a lot of evidence telling you differently. At this point that is either wishful thinking from you or self denial. And you have no excuse because my previous replies have taking you through the places in the lore and game that demonstrate this quite clearly.

    So either you don’t know and didn’t read what I wrote or you are just trolling me with this denial.
    Last edited by Mace; 2021-11-20 at 06:25 AM.

  18. #438
    Night elves aren't weak in the ARCANE I


    In written lore:
    • The night elf civilization has gone the furthest in the field
    • The current Shen'dralar are the most revered arcanist of that empire
    • The Farondis are the greatest magical theorists
    • The Moonguard are the best arcane magic combatants in the lore

    The Darnassians may not have arcane usage as prevalent in their society as blood elves, but their arcane potential and capability is right up there.

    Visually in game we are shown:

    • Nightborne to be exceptional and highly advanced at magic
    • Moonguard ages were phenomenally powerful when we do their quests there
    • Farondis is very powerful when we quest with him

    We also get to see two pristine night elf cities in Suramar (in-game) and Zin'Azshari in warbringers


    Anyone who has read about the kaldorei from the lore books like Chronicles, War of the Ancients trilogy and Wolfheart have read how incredible they are in this field


    What Tanaria doesn't get is that the race is strong, the talent is there, and the knowledge is there

    The Darnassians have the talent, even though a smaller percentage practice and they were 10,000 years out of practice...1. The best Shen'dralar survived to teach their kin catch up
    The best Moonguard survive too
    3. The Farondis survived also
    4. The Nightborne survived even though they fight for the horde.

    There is no way you can think night elves who do arcane magic are weak, even if they are completely new to magic, like the player mage might be, you develop into a phenomenal mage.
    Because of the Shen'dralar Moonguard , Farondis and Nightborne night elves, all elf groups now have access through the , to lost pre sundering advanced kaldorei elven knowledge that was lost to the Darnassians and Thalassians
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2021-11-20 at 06:02 AM.

  19. #439
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Because of the shen'dralrm Moonguard , Farondis and nighborne night elves, all elf groups now have access through the , to lost pre sundering advanced kaldorei elven knowledge that was lost to the Darnassians and Thalassians
    Are we sure if this?

    Nights elves haven’t yet been shown to be close enough to void elves ti share.

    While night elven Highborne do work with the Kirin’tor, have they shared their knowledge?

    Did Kael’thas and. Kale his share all the knowledge of the high elves and blue dragons with Dalaran?

    I don’t think so, but maybe. We are never told. Krause certainly wouldn’t have. You can explore magical fields without giving all the knowledge in your head.

    I think reformed Shen’dralar and returned Darnassian Highborne won’t.


    Now would Nightborne share knowledge with blood elves? This I think might happen. It’s like those movies when advanced aliens come to earth and firm friends with humans, the scientist want to learn their technology and they start sharing.

    But sometimes they don’t either.


    Draenei were great friends with humans, but I don’t see human magical knowledge and technology take off at all which implies while they may work alongside and be friendly, they actually don’t share as much as we think
    Last edited by Beloren; 2021-11-20 at 06:11 AM.

  20. #440
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    I just don’t like you making it out as if night elves aren’t good at or powerful in the arcane when the lore has told you about the Shen’dralar even though you haven’t seen it shown in game, but you’ve seen how powerful Nightborne, Moonguard and Farondis are and those are all night elven too. The power and mastery is quite visible.

    .
    I don't get his obsession with "blood elves are the most powerful mages" when it's clearly not the case. Visually evidentially and through questing, we see displays of arcane power and skill in the Nightborne and Moonguard that surpass what we've seen the blood elves come up with.

    Also I don't understand this stubborn denial, if the lore tells you the group is great, then it is great, even if in-game doesn't literally show them doing great things. This happens all the time in warcraft, some pieces of information are only acquired through reading - just because they are written doesn't mean they are less valid. It's far cheaper to write it than to show it. You are spot on with the Draenei comparison - they don't show them doing great stuff, but we are told they're great at magic.
    Blood elves are exceptional at the arcane, so are normal Darnassians, but Shen'dralar, Nightborne, Moonguard are better at it, because they've been at this far longer - even though Thalassian and Darnassians have exceptional skill and potential.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    Are we sure if this?

    Nights elves haven’t yet been shown to be close enough to void elves ti share.

    While night elven Highborne do work with the Kirin’tor, have they shared their knowledge?

    Did Kael’thas and. Kale his share all the knowledge of the high elves and blue dragons with Dalaran?

    I don’t think so, but maybe. We are never told. Krause certainly wouldn’t have. You can explore magical fields without giving all the knowledge in your head.

    I think reformed Shen’dralar and returned Darnassian Highborne won’t.


    Now would Nightborne share knowledge with blood elves? This I think might happen. It’s like those movies when advanced aliens come to earth and firm friends with humans, the scientist want to learn their technology and they start sharing.

    But sometimes they don’t either.


    Draenei were great friends with humans, but I don’t see human magical knowledge and technology take off at all which implies while they may work alongside and be friendly, they actually don’t share as much as we think
    Short answer = no, we aren't sure of this.

    I don't think this world is deep enough to explore that - or the developers care full enough to factor this in... despite being an ancient world, they model it on western world renaissance changes forwards - for example, once knowledge gets out there, everyone know it, whereas in the medieval and ancient worlds, this would absolutely not be the case, and groups would protect their knowledge and secrets.

    Blizzard hasn't specified, but I think the writing indicates that knowledge is shared, although I don't think it should be. I can't see a reformed Highborne Shen'dralar, very proud of his race and looking to restore it, and his caste, getting up and sharing his greatest secrets with young humans, who've tended to be irresponsible (fully a ware of the irony - but see it from their eyes), or void elves where no working/trusting relations have been established..and even if they were, I don't think it's a thing they would do unless they were becoming one nation/group united in purpose.


    Which makes me think some Nightborne/Sin'dorei sharing happens, but then how much? Your draenei observation is a good one. Draenei haven't shared their technology, and by extension I don't think their magical knowledge with humans.

    However, class changes might be an indication that this happens within a class..however with all the war and fighting, it's probably only combat techniques that are shared, not the vast array of knowledge, unless you literally live with them and go to their school as one of them, I don't think you would get their advanced knowledge, only combat contributions when they are needed in training.

    This is the impression I get.

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