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  1. #441
    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    @Mace

    While I don't think night elves are weak in the arcane at all, the lore is the lore, I don't think you appreciate how strong blood elves are with magic - the advances and power in fire, blood magic etc, they are the most adventurous of the elves with magic, lest you also forget that void elves come from blood elves who dared to delve into the void to explore. So I would put blood elves ahead of night elves, even nightborne - they may not be as advanced or knowledgeable as the night elven races, but they are more powerful and better - I think this has been demonstrated
    Ah, but the discussion is particular to the arcane, not all magic, this is where @Tanaria is confused. When it comes to the arcane, night elves are extremely powerful and hvae been shown to be more advanced and knowledgeable and skilled with it - it doesn't mean they are unbeatable, or know everything - i mean we end up beating far more powerful and knowledgeable Eredar magicians like Archimonde and Kil'jaedan, we defeated Nightborne, night elves and blood elves too in various raids and dungeons, despite them being more advanced, knowledgeable and more powerful

    Because we can find new things, can be creative.. this is the truth for blood elves, but same for night elves, and humans too.

    Collectively though, the level of arcane knowledge, skill and excellence will simply be higher in the night elven races and factions that have continued practising magic all these years than it would be in the ones that have not - whether they are night elven (like the darnassians) or not (like blood elves, humans and others).. you , cannot think that Moonguard, Shen'dralar, Nightborne who've been at it for 10,000 years, from a level that was beyond the current level of other races (incl high elves), would somehow be worse or less accomplished.


    However, you may have a point about blood elves' versatility with magic. It is a testament to their tenacity and drive, a credit to them, but the same potential exists in all elves.. so even if blood elves and void elves are pushing new magical frontiers, don't forget that night elves like the Shen'dralar are fanatical about arcane studie and knowledge, and we have night elven Illidari that we have been shown to be extremely hunry for more power and magic in fel.


    So whiles yes blood elves have more magical versatility, when it comes to arcane, nature - the night elf is ahead, for fel, they races are probably equal as both night elves and blood elves are united in the Illidari faction and the Illidari are the game's most advanced fel magic users (yes more advanced than warlocks - who we know very few can actually handle fel (shown by the reluctance to give them green fire - and we know warlocks also use shadow, void and fire, with destro the only spec that can wield fel powerfully) so sorry orcs/humans and all races that can be warlocks, because blood elves and night elves are Illidari, these two races are better with fel. (individual warlocks exempted - burning legion warlocks, Eredar and Gul'dan could obviously wield a lot more fel - but they are cut down and out powered when coming up against Illidari) - and overall it may be that blood arcane, and fire advancements may make up for the difference - but there is no denying night elves' arcane mastery and leadership.

    Blood elves are better at the light, blood magic, fire - for sure -- but I'm sorry, when it comes to pure arcane, nature magic and elemental knoweldge, the night elvles are ahead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    The Horde Blood Elf Warlocks were also, slightly involved with the Legion Class-order hall, but it was nothing to write home about and make a big deal over.

    And they are comparable to the current Alliance Night Elf Mages, because they have been culled thrice. (Twice by the Horde, once by Tortheldrin losing the plot.)

    Their numbers are all likely, very equal right now. That is where I draw my comparison between the two.
    This emphasises MAce's point, the strongest and greatest survived.

    Totheldrinn's cull left the best and brightest around.
    When the horde attacked, they didn't kill the night elves, they kill Immol'thar and Totheldrinn, - you can actually gain rep with the Shen'dralar that remain, this is likely an alliance thing now, or maybe horde too, but at some point, the horde drive them out - this si what the lore says, it didn't say kill.

    So it's the cream of the crop, and they successfully wean themselves of addiction and demonic corruption according to the lore - this is also not shown, but told - but because it is told are you going to claim it's not relevant or true to the lore?

    In the War of Thorns, the night elf race is culled, it's a genocide, fortunately not an extinction, the lore also points out specifically now, that the most highly skilled sentinels, priests and druids survived because they had been sent south and didn't get back in time. Also the mages and Highborne caste survive.. they don't take part in the conflict.. only 3 of them fight, the rest are employed to do portals.. their portalling ability would mean that no Highborne member, new or old would have been lost in the burning of the tree.. Mace is right, please think about the information you are given and what it means.

    The Darnassian number landscape is very different now than it was pre-woT


    And what does that matter I ask you? It doesn't.. it doesn't stop the Highborne been led and taught by phenomenally skilled mages and able to reproduce the great wonders of the kaldorei empire.. it also doesn't stop the other Darnassians from continuing with Druidism and Elunism either.. the culling doesn't mean everyone should go to the arcane again, or that nature is abandoned. The nightmare didn't do that for nature practitioners, even the sundering and threat of the legion's return didnt' do that for the mage practitioners who didn't join the Hyjal group.

    While culling is bad, we know that even with a much larger mage proportion, some night elves will be druids, some priests and some mages, and they are at a stage where no one group is going to eclipse the other.

    in the pre-sundering era, because of Azshara's wonders and the arcane was relatively knew and a major driving force in the peace and prosperity of the night elves, it became the biggest focus - this was in a world where they could beat everybody and there was no legion, also a world where nature wasn't' developed enough, but even in that world the Goddess was still worshipped and highly revered and the priesthood with it's secrets and ways were, even at the height of her power, second only to the Queen and her royal caste.

    Even in the long vigil, where amongst the northern night elves (not the Shen'dralar or Nightborne bear in mind, or Moonguard in the stronghold), arcane practice had to be cut for fear of te legion, so nature dominated unopposed.

    My point is, that the need for that suppression is gone, both the arcane supremacy age and nature supremacy age are gone - there is no need for either and there are good reason neither would dominate.. This is the age of balance, where night elves would be in the sort of balance that marked their greatest stage of progress, the time when all 3 facets were revered and practised.. this happened in the early stages of the pre-sundering era is what led to it's greatness, before arcane obsession overtook, and we know this wouldn't happen now.

    This is why the night elves in theory should literally develop into the best of the dark elves and the forest elves the developers actually initially said they should be.

    I for one am keen to see this occur in development. or I was anyway, before I just gave up on Warcraft. Why should I continue to be interested in a product tat even it's makers don't take that seriously.

  2. #442
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Blood elves are better at the light, blood magic, fire - for sure -- but I'm sorry, when it comes to pure arcane, nature magic and elemental knoweldge, the night elves are ahead.
    But blood elves will likely catch them up and surpass them fairly soon - because blood elves have been shown to be more aggressive and driven to pursue and advance their knowledge

  3. #443
    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    But blood elves will likely catch them up and surpass them fairly soon - because blood elves have been shown to be more aggressive and driven to pursue and advance their knowledge
    Weaponize their knowledge for destruction – not advance all their knowledge. This is what has been demonstrated. Blood elves haven’t made new magical theory advances that produce better magical applications and create better magical appliances, techniques etc etc.. just destruction.

    Also, the lore has told you Shen’dralar are fanatical about their magical studies, they’re very driven, to the point of letting their city slip into ruin (while they were under corruption), off course they came to their senses when they finally overcame their corruption and weaned themselves of their addiction (showing how capable they are – achieving something that both Thalassians and all other night elves (both Darnassian and Nightborne) required a lot of help to do). Once off and too their sense, they started to try to fix their city, and were shown in Wolfheart to still be very much into being at the very top of their field.

    Although not shown as often as blood elves in game, these little lore insights set the stage for them.

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  4. #444
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Weaponize their knowledge for destruction – not advance all their knowledge. This is what has been demonstrated. Blood elves haven’t made new magical theory advances that produce better magical applications and create better magical appliances, techniques etc etc.. just destruction.

    Also, the lore has told you Shen’dralar are fanatical about their magical studies, they’re very driven, to the point of letting their city slip into ruin (while they were under corruption), off course they came to their senses when they finally overcame their corruption and weaned themselves of their addiction (showing how capable they are – achieving something that both Thalassians and all other night elves (both Darnassian and Nightborne) required a lot of help to do). Once off and too their sense, they started to try to fix their city, and were shown in Wolfheart to still be very much into being at the very top of their field.

    Although not shown as often as blood elves in game, these little lore insights set the stage for them.
    I will use you and Mace's arguement against you. We don't know that destruction is the only advancement the blood elves have made in magic.. because we haven't been shown, so they could have made extensive advancement in all fields, and just not shown it yet. IF the Shen'dralar can be great even though not shown in game to be any good at battle or producing any wonders like they did, why assume the blood elves progress is only in destructive capability?!

  5. #445
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    And you seem to be under the impression that the Moon Guard is a huge unit. It's not now. It's almost extinct, with only 3 or 4 surviving members. The majority of the organisation actually switched to Druidism, after the Sundering. The original organisation is almost extinct, with most of their last few survivors being killed by the Shal'dorei.
    Doesn't matter if they are huge , the very best, with the knowledge and the skills survived and can teach. This is what you're not getting. Void elves were very few, Illidari are very few, being few doesn't mean you aren't very powerful. Moonguard did not lose their knowledge, Shen'dralar did not lose their knowledge during the sundering, nor did the Nightborne - their cities and bases survived and they continued.. Darnassians and Thalassians were in the same group that lost everything and abstained from magic for 3,000 and 10,000 years, they lost most of that advanced kaldorei knowledge. The Thalassians however started something new again they built up, even though the scourge destroyed a lot of it.. still what they built up was not even close to what the elves had before - it's not because they aren't as good, but likely because they had more troubles with trolls and others, and were operating magic under the threat of a returning burning legion, so had to be far more cautious than before, also they were a much smaller group, so their progress was slower and they had a less powerful well.


    You can see why they would not be as advanced as night elves who continued studying and developing their knowledge and skills like Shen'dralar, Moonguard or Nightborne, regardless of how many or few there are.


    The lore shows you the and demonstrates the best survive, and and we know night elves keep knowledge through the Ancient trees who nver forget and pass it on through their fruit should they die (read twilight of the aspects), as well as store information magically in arcane crystals (as demonstrated in Azshara zone quests) - even if their libraries are destroyed, , it's like destroying your first edition books, but you have access to the database in your usb drive or mobile computer.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    Your focus seems to be on what was and not what it is now. I do remember you and Raven wanting the Druidic focus to be toned down and the Mage focus toned up, and you were met with a lot of backlash from that - especially from night elf fans.
    Then, not now? don't use that as an excuse to think that these guys aren't great at what they do.. just because Silvermoon was destroyed and the glory of the high elves was then, does that mean the blood elves aren't great at magic and can't rebuild - especially when they have the talent still around and capability?


    It's just a matter of when.


    So stop using the fact that the night elves did that stuff in the past to mean they can't do it now when the best of the talent survived and the knowledge is around with them.. it's just a matter of time, - should the developers choose to show it, it can happen, by lore we know they can.


    Furthermore I think you misunderstand what I was doing..as did all those who had a backlash, because you kept twisting our words.

    See my avatar? Druid, that's what I play, you keep mis-representing the night elves arcane side because as mace has pointed out and I observed with you in the past, you are obsessed with blood elves being supreme with magic.. fine, be obsessed all you want, you like that, but don't be under any illusions that night elves are weak, or worse, Mace has reminded you the lore has shown their civilization to be greater than the blood elves.

    Suramar still stands, all those night elves , now Nightborne in it, did not build anything there as Nightborne in that last 10,000 years, so because they are not shown to have built something will you also conclude they are rubbish? ofc not, because like the Farondis, and the Moonguard, the Nightborne have been shown powerfully in battle, but you arel also told they are excellent at this, just like you ae with the Shen'dralar.


    You Misrepresent Us and it's Annoying
    As far as I remember, the backlash from some night elf fans was because they thought we were trying to remove druidism from night elves and make night elves an exclusive arcane race like they were before and like Nightborne night elves already show (rather than merely having that as one part of several) - Hmmmmm...... I wonder where they got that mis-understanding from ??? Yes from you - because you don't read what we write. We were pointing out that night elves should have a visibly powerful and advanced evidence of the arcane in the Darnassian faction that reflected that side..we weren't saying they should become an arcane heavy society at all.

    We pointed out the Highborne would be heavy arcane users, and stuff around them should reflect this and that part of the heritage of the night elves.

    Night elves are diverse enough in the lore, and this should be reflected. We shouldn't only have forests, but also great night elf cities in addition to great temples and great forests.

    You mis-represented it to sound like we were saying night elves should be a fully arcanised society like the night elves on the horde do only or like the blood elves do. Naughty you. we know that the night elves have a fel component through the Illidari and a high mage component through their arcane connection and their Highborne etc, it is part of their lore and while it's cool to see it in neutral groups like the Farondis and Moonguoard, and in Suramar that went horde, it should be visible in part of the Darnassians, because they are the main race. Wanting a city and/or a section/zone like Azsuna dedicated to Highborne and the arcane wing reflect this part of their race in the playable faction is not wanting all of the night elves to be like this... little liar. You took advantage of the fact they would not read our full explanations and mis-represented in your much shorter replies making statements as if you were responding to what we said, when we didn't say that at all. They were responding to your mis-representation, not waht we were actually saying.

    Blood elves had the same argument recently Mace points out when trying to argue for tattoos, beards and more customisations, saying that as the major race they should have wider access to the core facets f the Thalassians, which should include scars like Lor'themar and tattoos like the Farstriders are known to have (not just Alleria) and Rommath who's mages got them from their Illidari partnership in the TFT through to TBC storyline.

    It is exactly the same argument.. yet you twisted it to make it sound like we were asking for something we were not. Proper representation doesn't mean complete and total taking over of a theme.

    I love the forest theme, and want it to remain, it is part of the night elves, and i like it being there, but so is the Elune theme, the Illidari theme and the pre-sundering arcane theme. Cappische?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    I will use you and Mace's arguement against you. We don't know that destruction is the only advancement the blood elves have made in magic.. because we haven't been shown, so they could have made extensive advancement in all fields, and just not shown it yet. IF the Shen'dralar can be great even though not shown in game to be any good at battle or producing any wonders like they did, why assume the blood elves progress is only in destructive capability?!
    The difference is we are told the Shen'dralar are great at what magic and they hone their skills as well as advance their knowledge.. even though we aren't shown.. this is the difference.

    There are many things we are told in lore, but not shown in game. Mace's main point is that sometimes it takes years before blizzard shows them (like the kaldorei civilization city or Argus, or the strength of the Light wielding power in the blood elves)..not everything is shown straight away, even though there is mention.

    This is the main difference here. While you could be correct, there is nothing that says this is the case. We are only shown the blood elves wielding magic powerfully to destroy. This is where all the advancements are shown and in the quests also seem to be geared towards. (i'm not the biggest expert on blood elf lore, so correct me if i'm wrong).

    It's not been mentioned they've been exploring and advancing knowledge for other purposes, only the blood elves that became void elves is it mentioned them investigating this magic source, but even there the aim was to defend Azeroth - so more from a weaponizing point of view than a creative one or constructive one.

    And because no mention is made, it's only an opinion, but the points on the Shen'dralar are not opinion. Tanaria just denies what has been actually written because he hasn't seen it in game - and he does this because he love the blood elves a lot, loves them being at the top (he thinks) whiles the reality is the night elves are ahead - he is fine with the draenei, because not much emphasis is made there, so the blood elves seem to be ahead there at least visually.

    He cares more about visual representation.. he didn't care about the night elves at all until he saw Suramar, then started caring, so he didn't care that the lore told you those cities and civilization were phenomenal...most of them didn't care because Eldre'thalas was in ruins - it didn't matter that the people who could build it and repair it were still around - no they didn't care about them because they could see nothing. but when they saw Suramar, all of a sudden they switched from being Highborne denialists to affirming loyal fans now far more interested in the sin'dorei being Highborne (though they aren't - they're Highborne descendants) where prior to that those very fans were falling over themselves to let you know the Thalassians had moved on past their Highborne pasts.

    This is when being Highborne meant having only ruins like Dire Maul or Vashj'ir or Zin'Azshari to engage their feeble imagination. I say feeble, because the text told them it was phenomenal, but they couldn't care because they couldn't imagine it from the text and what they actually saw in game didn't excite them. Only changing when something was shown in game with Suramar then Zin'Azshari.

    Feeble indeed. I have no problems with anyone liking something they didn't like at first because it's now done really well, but then to turn round and still spit on the very group that in lore is responsible and call them weak is just double minded, just like those who deny the Nightborne are kaldorei empire elves and kaldorei culture, because night elves are a main race on the opposite faction.. it's so stupid.

    Even after the sharing of Thalassians as playable, you saw them literally ignore the existence of Thalassians on the alliance despite being in both books and game, only because they weren't playable. Selective memory is huge in this community.

    Truth is they are being duplicitous, only acknowledging what they want and denying the fuller picture, because like football fans, they want their club, their faction to be the greatest, and so would deny every real thing or evidence in front of them, though seeing it, will tell you it's not there or not true. I hate that, ,it's exactly how the devil would behave. (sad thing is that this would be high praise to some - I find it very evil)
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2021-11-20 at 11:23 AM.

  6. #446
    @ravenmoon - doesn't really matter? If you love night elves you are going to think they're great, if you're love blood elves you are going tothink they're great.

    There is something great in each race, and also things that aren't or rather unlikeable.

    If you buy into the whole faction rivalry thing i just stopped getting into, then you'd probably want to hate the opposite faction's traditional enemies or rivals of your race. I'm just sick of it, so, I'll be quite fair, night elves are great at the arcane, but the re is a lot more to them than that now.. it' s nice or would be nice, especially i know for you if they have a good representation of that side of them in game. A city and a zone would be a good idea, but off course it should not be the only thing.

    their arcane display, even if as amazing as Zin'Azshari and full of the sort of marvel that is pre-sundering, should also never eclipse the druidic or Elune parts either. I guess Broken isles is the perfect example.. you have one great city like Suramar, you have Highborne zone for a good arcane based society of night elves - like we see in Azsuna, but you also have a huge druidic zone in Val'sharah, and then you have priest temples all over the plane, a massive capital temple like the Cathedral, but then other temples in the druid zone and the Highborne zone as well as others.

    This is the model you want.


    imo, I would do Eldre'thalas for a beautiful night elf city, in pre-sundering majesty, with a forest nearby full of druidic wonder.

    I would have Hyjal as a night elf capital, that will have only a few buildings, a great temple to Elune and lots of forest - basically Eldre'thalas would be like the New York, while Hyjal is the Washington D.C.. Azsuna would be the Highborne zone rebuilt.

    1. Surmar will totally belong ot the Nightborne, but can have night elf liaison in it via the Moonguard who I would make friendly with both Nightborne and Darnassians.
    2. Tel'Anor would also be a place for night elves and nightborne.
    3. Suramar would be nightborne, but you would see friendly night elves who work and live with them like Farodin and some Val'sharah priests and Druids.
    4. Meredil and the temple of Falanar would be rebuilt by nightborne so that too would be horde although night elves friendly to them would be there.


    • Ashenvale forest , Val'sharah forest, Feralas Forest and Hyjal forest would be the places full of druidic wonder
    • Darkshore would become a priest centred place, but they'd have temples everywhere night elves and nightborne are.
    • Azsuna would be the Highborne zone, and Eldre'thalas a Highborne main city -


    this is the proper weight.. the forest is the largest portion.
    you have 1 big night elf city, (Eldre'thals that's Highborne, but two smaller ones, capital on Hyjal, more priest/druid, but also has some Highborne), and Nar'thalas.

    Druidism is not city based, so you don't need druid building s in cities, there influence is seen in the parks and gardens, but they own the forests, and the Highborne the cities, the priests are everywhere. This to me makes the most sense.


    I DON'T CARE !!

    • I don't care any more who is bigger
    • I don't care any more that one group has more stuff than the other

    Demon hunters and blood elves are small but powerful.

    What I care is that

    • Silvermoon be updated and beautifully stunning - I don't care if the night elf city is as Stunning as Zin'Azshari and Suramar - as long as Silvermoon is stunning
    • I don't care that night elven mages are as powerful as the lore says they are - as long as Blood elves continue to be very powerful and great
    • I don't envy or am jealous of void elves or high elves, i just think high elves are a bit behind everyone lore wise, but i don't care if they get revived - blood elves are great , and as long as that continues I am fine.
    • I don't envy night elves nature mastery in addition to arcane mastery and fel mastery - blood elves have demonstrated mastery in more forms of magic, Light magic, arcane mastery, fel mastery, blood magic mastery, and ...


    BLOOD ELVES ALWAYS CATCH UP - so watch out night elves.

  7. #447
    @Tanaria - night elves are a race that wield both the magic of the forest and the magic of the stars - the arcane

    They have groups that are at the very top of both.

    Blood elves share arcane mastery with the night elves who are great at that, but because of history the various groups are at different stages of knowledge and advancement - surely you can see that.

    Night elves wield the magic of the stars in various ways. The priests have a way, the druids have a way, but so do the mages and they are the origin of that craft, it’s longest users and most advanced, knowledgeable and developed in that field would be amongst their race and the groups that are specifically dedicated to it.


    They also wield the magic of the forest, of nature and life, we see this also in the druids mainly and it’s a different magic. It might be related but it’s different.


    The people who think night elves only wield the magic of the forest are ignoring swathes of lore, ignoring the Highborne, the Nightborne, the Shen’dralar and Moonguard too, the entire origin of the night elves and the entire Pre-sundering era, having sudden amnesia about Azshara and the first invasion of the legion which had 3 novels dedicated to it. It is a lot to ignore. It doesn’t matter how small their numbers are currently, we know this means nothing (just look at voidbelves, Illidari, Gnomes and pretty much most wow races) . What matters is who is around and their capability.


    night elven demon hunters are also the pinnacle of fel isers amongst the playable race. Blood elves also joined them here and those Illidari blood elves are on par. Initially the night elves were superior being the teachers that trained the blood elves. But blood elves have caught up

    Your hypocrisy is clear as day. You willingly accept blood elves are now as good as night elves at fel desoite only recently starting because they were trained my masters such as Illidan and Illyana, but you refuse to accept Darnassian mages would be as good as their teachers potentially now seeing they’ve been trained by Shen’dralar and Kirin’tor

    you have no problem accepting new blood elf mages or other races would be good at magic once trained but seem to somehow think the newer night elf mages are still as green as they were a few weeks into the cataclysm when we see their out dates knowledge and insufficient training exploited.

    this is the definition of hypocrisy.
    @Beloren. Good for you. Every race is supposed to appeal to different people. It’s jot about who is stronger or has more. Every race has something nice and great about them. If you like ine races version of the same thing over another. Great. If you prefer purple to gold then good.

    there is so much variety in wow and blizzard didn’t make it a black and white thing. Blizzard didn’t make it - “if you like forests the. Only night elves are for you” if that was the case, why give them a priesthood? Why call them star people ? Why give them arcane magic and the origin of it? Why give highborne , Nightborne, moonguard, the ore sundering reign. Why give them cities and forests and temples?

    it’s silly to ignore all the aspects to night elves just for one
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2021-11-20 at 01:46 PM.

  8. #448
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Blood elves are better at the light, blood magic, fire - for sure -- but I'm sorry, when it comes to pure arcane, nature magic and elemental knoweldge, the night elvles are ahead.
    When night elven shen's create and construct mana bombs or raise arcane ships with arcane cannons as well as hold expertise in frost and arcane magic, I'll approve of this point.

    And elemental knowledge! What are you talking about? Elves aren't Shamans.
    Conjuration? That's just part of a magical arcane school that Humans seem to have mastered.

    And lest we forget, Enchanting is also part of the Arcane school and I seem to recall Blood Elves being the race with increased enchanting skills.
    I guess it means Blood Elves are masters of Arcane, Fire, Blood Magic, Enchanting and of course, Frost Magic but this isn't as common now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    @Tanaria - night elves are a race that wield both the magic of the forest and the magic of the stars - the arcane

    They have groups that are at the very top of both.

    Blood elves share arcane mastery with the night elves who are great at that, but because of history the various groups are at different stages of knowledge and advancement - surely you can see that.

    Night elves wield the magic of the stars in various ways. The priests have a way, the druids have a way, but so do the mages and they are the origin of that craft, it’s longest users and most advanced, knowledgeable and developed in that field would be amongst their race and the groups that are specifically dedicated to it.


    They also wield the magic of the forest, of nature and life, we see this also in the druids mainly and it’s a different magic. It might be related but it’s different.


    The people who think night elves only wield the magic of the forest are ignoring swathes of lore, ignoring the Highborne, the Nightborne, the Shen’dralar and Moonguard too, the entire origin of the night elves and the entire Pre-sundering era, having sudden amnesia about Azshara and the first invasion of the legion which had 3 novels dedicated to it. It is a lot to ignore. It doesn’t matter how small their numbers are currently, we know this means nothing (just look at voidbelves, Illidari, Gnomes and pretty much most wow races) . What matters is who is around and their capability.


    night elven demon hunters are also the pinnacle of fel isers amongst the playable race. Blood elves also joined them here and those Illidari blood elves are on par. Initially the night elves were superior being the teachers that trained the blood elves. But blood elves have caught up

    Your hypocrisy is clear as day. You willingly accept blood elves are now as good as night elves at fel desoite only recently starting because they were trained my masters such as Illidan and Illyana, but you refuse to accept Darnassian mages would be as good as their teachers potentially now seeing they’ve been trained by Shen’dralar and Kirin’tor

    you have no problem accepting new blood elf mages or other races would be good at magic once trained but seem to somehow think the newer night elf mages are still as green as they were a few weeks into the cataclysm when we see their out dates knowledge and insufficient training exploited.

    this is the definition of hypocrisy.
    @Beloren. Good for you. Every race is supposed to appeal to different people. It’s jot about who is stronger or has more. Every race has something nice and great about them. If you like ine races version of the same thing over another. Great. If you prefer purple to gold then good.

    there is so much variety in wow and blizzard didn’t make it a black and white thing. Blizzard didn’t make it - “if you like forests the. Only night elves are for you” if that was the case, why give them a priesthood? Why call them star people ? Why give them arcane magic and the origin of it? Why give highborne , Nightborne, moonguard, the ore sundering reign. Why give them cities and forests and temples?

    it’s silly to ignore all the aspects to night elves just for one
    You see and this is why your a hypocrite because you don't like it when we state what the Sin'dorei are masters of.
    I already said this to Mace, no matter what I say, you will always put the Thalassian race down. Even the Ren'dorei and try and make the nelfs better.

    I talk Fel, you say "Well Illidan..."
    I talk Farstrider, you say "probably compare to the Sentinels but I like blood elf hunters so I'll put them further up."
    I talk Mages, you say "Well night elves..."
    I talk Light, you say "Well Draenei..."

    You don't want to put them because you don't like the Sin'dorei... (I still believe that you want them toned down and written out, in favor of nelfs and helfs. What did you call 10.0? Rise of the Kaldorei and Return of the High Elves? More like "laughing stock and extra laughs.")

    If nelfs are as perfect as you say, then you actually need to tone them down and raise the Sin'dorei profile.
    I reckon you two can't keep your stories straight because you say that Void Elves have more knowledge of the arcane than Blood Elves...but the former comes from the latter...so your not making sense. If you don't know Sin'dorei lore, then educate yourself before you want to talk about it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    And because no mention is made, it's only an opinion, but the points on the Shen'dralar are not opinion. Tanaria just denies what has been actually written because he hasn't seen it in game - and he does this because he love the blood elves a lot, loves them being at the top (he thinks) whiles the reality is the night elves are ahead - he is fine with the draenei, because not much emphasis is made there, so the blood elves seem to be ahead there at least visually.
    So far ahead, their little tree burned down.

    Yeah, totally better than the Sin'dorei, who have their city and most actually say it's the most beautiful in Azeroth.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    The difference is we are told the Shen'dralar are great at what magic and they hone their skills as well as advance their knowledge.. even though we aren't shown.. this is the difference.

    There are many things we are told in lore, but not shown in game. Mace's main point is that sometimes it takes years before blizzard shows them (like the kaldorei civilization city or Argus, or the strength of the Light wielding power in the blood elves)..not everything is shown straight away, even though there is mention.

    This is the main difference here. While you could be correct, there is nothing that says this is the case. We are only shown the blood elves wielding magic powerfully to destroy. This is where all the advancements are shown and in the quests also seem to be geared towards. (i'm not the biggest expert on blood elf lore, so correct me if i'm wrong).
    We are also told about the Sin'dorei Mastery of the Arcane.

    Alleria states it.
    The Magisters state it.
    Blizzard have stated it.
    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Mage_races#Blood_elves

    "Blood Elves present a significant force of Arcane Mastery on Azeroth."

    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Magisters#Origin

    "and have been in possession of a vast reservoir of knowledge on all things arcane, for many years"

    This second quote alone, ruins your point about Blood Elves having less knowledge than Void Elves and Shen'whatevers. (Void Elves already ruin your point), but this shows that the Magisters have a vast reservoir of knowledge on all things, arcane."

    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Mag...Ranking_system

    Ranking system - I have never seen this level of Mage-ranking in the night elves.

    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Blood_elf#Magisters

    They are directly responsible for the reclamation of the elven homeland from the Scourge, and it was their mastery over magic that enabled them to rebuild Silvermoon City, "almost overnight".
    The various arcane structures around the city itself are empowered by their volatile magics, and the thought of what one of the most powerful magi organizations in Azeroth could bring to the Horde was a key component in the blood elves being accepted by it.

    Mana Bombs are exactly what you and Mace fawn over with the shen's. They are a creation of arcane magic, but have the powers to destroy. That automatically puts the Blood Elven use of magic far head of the nelfs and that's by a large margin. They've taken what you say is the best part of the arcane and used it to destroy.

    By this very logic, this will always keep the Sin'dorei ahead of the night elves, in that field of magic.

    You mis-interpret the lore just to put nelfs ahead of the Sin'dorei, when you've admitted you don't know Thalassian lore.

    And don't accuse me of trying to turn this thread into a Blood Elf thread. I moved this conversation over, but clearly - people want to talk about Blood Elves in this thread.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    BLOOD ELVES ALWAYS CATCH UP - so watch out night elves.
    The Sin'dorei have caught up in many other ways and surpassed the night elves.

    Mana Bombs, Fire Arcane hurricanes, Blood Magic and Fire Pheonix Magic mastery, Arcane Knowledge and Mastery.

    I mean, it's all in the lore, with even Alleria Windrunner stating it.
    Last edited by Tanaria; 2021-11-20 at 02:32 PM.

  9. #449
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    When night elven shen's create and construct mana bombs or raise arcane ships with arcane cannons as well as hold expertise in frost and arcane magic, I'll approve of this point.

    And elemental knowledge! What are you talking about? Elves aren't Shamans.
    Conjuration? That's just part of a magical arcane school that Humans seem to have mastered.

    And lest we forget, Enchanting is also part of the Arcane school and I seem to recall Blood Elves being the race with increased enchanting skills.
    I guess it means Blood Elves are masters of Arcane, Fire, Blood Magic, Enchanting and of course, Frost Magic but this isn't as common now.

    - - - Updated - - -



    You see and this is why your a hypocrite because you don't like it when we state what the Sin'dorei are masters of.
    I already said this to Mace, no matter what I say, you will always put the Thalassian race down. Even the Ren'dorei and try and make the nelfs better.

    I talk Fel, you say "Well Illidan..."
    I talk Farstrider, you say "probably compare to the Sentinels but I like blood elf hunters so I'll put them further up."
    I talk Mages, you say "Well night elves..."
    I talk Light, you say "Well Draenei..."

    You don't want to put them because you don't like the Sin'dorei... (I still believe that you want them toned down and written out, in favor of nelfs and helfs. What did you call 10.0? Rise of the Kaldorei and Return of the High Elves? More like "laughing stock and extra laughs.")

    If nelfs are as perfect as you say, then you actually need to tone them down and raise the Sin'dorei profile.
    I reckon you two can't keep your stories straight because you say that Void Elves have more knowledge of the arcane than Blood Elves...but the former comes from the latter...so your not making sense. If you don't know Sin'dorei lore, then educate yourself before you want to talk about it.
    .
    Utter nonsense, so you now are an expert in what I like.

    And in your logic I don't like sin'dorei because I simply agree with the lore's description of night elves.

    my Thalassian toons outnumber my night elven ones, FYI, and just because I profess the night elves being great at something or better than the blood elevs in some areas doesn't mean I hate the sin'dorei.

    Your reaction looks very sycophantic, if I'm honest Tanaria - there is no rational to these statements.. I hate the blood elves because I tell you night elves are older and have been doing this longer and are written to have a greater civilisation and gone further? Really?

    Is this why you are arguing over this so much? Mace was right. Chill dude. I know I needed to chill too when I got heavily into this, but dude, chill.

  10. #450
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    @Tanaria - night elves are a race that wield both the magic of the forest and the magic of the stars - the arcane

    They have groups that are at the very top of both.

    Blood elves share arcane mastery with the night elves who are great at that, but because of history the various groups are at different stages of knowledge and advancement - surely you can see that.

    Night elves wield the magic of the stars in various ways. The priests have a way, the druids have a way, but so do the mages and they are the origin of that craft, it’s longest users and most advanced, knowledgeable and developed in that field would be amongst their race and the groups that are specifically dedicated to it.


    They also wield the magic of the forest, of nature and life, we see this also in the druids mainly and it’s a different magic. It might be related but it’s different.


    The people who think night elves only wield the magic of the forest are ignoring swathes of lore, ignoring the Highborne, the Nightborne, the Shen’dralar and Moonguard too, the entire origin of the night elves and the entire Pre-sundering era, having sudden amnesia about Azshara and the first invasion of the legion which had 3 novels dedicated to it. It is a lot to ignore. It doesn’t matter how small their numbers are currently, we know this means nothing (just look at voidbelves, Illidari, Gnomes and pretty much most wow races) . What matters is who is around and their capability.


    night elven demon hunters are also the pinnacle of fel isers amongst the playable race. Blood elves also joined them here and those Illidari blood elves are on par. Initially the night elves were superior being the teachers that trained the blood elves. But blood elves have caught up

    Your hypocrisy is clear as day. You willingly accept blood elves are now as good as night elves at fel desoite only recently starting because they were trained my masters such as Illidan and Illyana, but you refuse to accept Darnassian mages would be as good as their teachers potentially now seeing they’ve been trained by Shen’dralar and Kirin’tor

    you have no problem accepting new blood elf mages or other races would be good at magic once trained but seem to somehow think the newer night elf mages are still as green as they were a few weeks into the cataclysm when we see their out dates knowledge and insufficient training exploited.

    this is the definition of hypocrisy.
    @Beloren. Good for you. Every race is supposed to appeal to different people. It’s jot about who is stronger or has more. Every race has something nice and great about them. If you like ine races version of the same thing over another. Great. If you prefer purple to gold then good.

    there is so much variety in wow and blizzard didn’t make it a black and white thing. Blizzard didn’t make it - “if you like forests the. Only night elves are for you” if that was the case, why give them a priesthood? Why call them star people ? Why give them arcane magic and the origin of it? Why give highborne , Nightborne, moonguard, the ore sundering reign. Why give them cities and forests and temples?

    it’s silly to ignore all the aspects to night elves just for one
    I 100% agree with this, but notice @Tanaria not only fails to acknowledge anything that is correct about what you've said.

    He has completley switched to stating something you dind't say.

    He basically is trying to tell you:
    "look blood elves are amazing" don't you agree?",

    While you say:
    "yes they are, but night elves are amazing too and are better in this area and that.. "


    He goes,
    "You, you're ignoring blood elves and hate them, they are the best mage casters out there, like EVAH !!"


    I mean /shrug
    Last edited by Mace; 2021-11-20 at 03:10 PM.

  11. #451
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    I 100% agree with this, but notice @Tanaria not only fails to acknowledge anything that is correct about what you've said.

    He has completley switched to stating something you dind't say.

    He basically is trying to tell you:
    "look blood elves are amazing" don't you agree?",

    While you say:
    "yes they are, but night elves are amazing too and are better in this area and that.. "


    He goes,
    "You, you're ignoring blood elves and hate them, they are the best mage casters out there, like EVAH !!"


    I mean /shrug
    I've already told you and shown you evidence that you have failed in.

    If you can't take the lore, when it's on my side then maybe you shouldn't bother? If you don't like the lore, then maybe continue talking about that wish list of "rise of the nelfs."

    I still think I know more about night elves than either of you...I mean, I'm not sure you know the Warden or Druidic lore, but I'll happily have a conversation with you.

    And maybe, you should heed your own advice.

    Me: Here's some links that prove that the Sin'dorei have knowledge, mastery, use and other knowledges, over arcane magic.
    You: NO! Night Elves are still the best Mages, EVAH!
    Me: They might have been, 10,000 years ago...?
    You: They still are! Read! Use your IMAGINATION!!!
    Me: Ok...?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Utter nonsense, so you now are an expert in what I like.

    And in your logic I don't like sin'dorei because I simply agree with the lore's description of night elves.

    my Thalassian toons outnumber my night elven ones, FYI, and just because I profess the night elves being great at something or better than the blood elevs in some areas doesn't mean I hate the sin'dorei.

    Your reaction looks very sycophantic, if I'm honest Tanaria - there is no rational to these statements.. I hate the blood elves because I tell you night elves are older and have been doing this longer and are written to have a greater civilisation and gone further? Really?

    Is this why you are arguing over this so much? Mace was right. Chill dude. I know I needed to chill too when I got heavily into this, but dude, chill.
    I don't need to chill.

    Maybe you's need to chill over the suggestion that Blood Elves are actually better at what you say the arcane is strongest at and the destructive side of the arcane? I mean, Mana Bombs...Never seen a nelf create one...unless you count that construct in Azshara?

    Maybe I just know more about alliance night elves, whilst you know more about the smaller areas that don't have a true impact on the overall story?

    You two need to stop worry about the night elves not being as perfect as they were, during the Empire. Yes, the arcane has gone into other races, but you'll find something the night elves are masters of. Druidism for instance? You say they are diverse, so you'll find something that stands out...it's just not the arcane anymore.
    Last edited by Tanaria; 2021-11-20 at 03:39 PM.

  12. #452
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    I've already told you and shown you evidence that you have failed in.
    Evidence of what?
    We already agree with you blood elves are great at magic.

    Who will win in a fighting contest is subjective.

    Who's been using magic longer and is more advanced with arcane? Off course it's night elven factions - to argue otherwise is insane. And it doesn't mean blood elves or humans aren't very good at magic.

    Basically blood elves are to night elves what humans are to blood elves. One group has been doing this longer and not lost any magic.

    normal Darnassian night elves are to blood elves, what humans are to blood elves.. however shen'dralar/nightborne/moonguard night elves are to blood elves what blood elves are to humans - an older more established arcane practising group.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    If you can't take the lore, when it's on my side then maybe you shouldn't bother? If you don't like the lore, then maybe continue talking about that wish list of "rise of the nelfs."

    I still think I know more about night elves than either of you...I mean, I'm not sure you know the Warden or Druidic lore, but I'll happily have a conversation with you.

    And maybe, you should heed your own advice.

    Me: Here's some links that prove that the Sin'dorei have knowledge, mastery, use and other knowledges, over arcane magic.
    You: NO! Night Elves are still the best Mages, EVAH!
    Me: They might have been, 10,000 years ago...?
    You: They still are! Read! Use your IMAGINATION!!!
    Me: Ok...?
    Here you are creating an argument and picking a fight no one is disputing with you.

    You see that section I bolded out and enlarged for you?

    We are not saying this isn't true
    We are not arguing against that either

    That isn't what the last 2 pages of replies to you have been talkinga bout, but this is what you somehow seem to think they are.

    This is what we mean by you making responses to things we didn't say.

    You are quoting all these facts no one is disputing with you, while failing to actually acknowledge or discuss what is being said..

    I'm saying the sky is blue, you reply, "the earth is brown" - look I have evidence it is brown. I'm saying yes, it i s, but the sky is blue too see.. and you are..here is more evidence the earth is brown, i really like the earth.




    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post

    I don't need to chill.

    Maybe you's need to chill over the suggestion that Blood Elves are actually better at what you say the arcane is strongest at and the destructive side of the arcane? I mean, Mana Bombs...Never seen a nelf create one...unless you count that construct in Azshara?
    There you go back to power again, Last I checked, I would imagine Fel (chaos) and death (domination) are more destruction, the arcane is order, but any power can be used for destructive purposes, however not every power lends itself to building or to life.

    Beloren was pointing out , I guess in agreement with you, that Sin'dorei do use magic more deructively, we were pointing out yes, it's their strength, perhaps their only strength too.. it's powerful sure, and they are dedicated to this.. they were not at the level of the Moonguard or the Nightborne in 7.0 - when it came to arcane combat, and in a head on fight. That is a power argument.. who'd win in a fight is subjective.

    Even if one group has won the last 3 times, doesn't mean they'd win the 4th, and as every sports player knows, just because Night elven magic groups like highborne and nightborne are stronger on paper doesn't mean they'd win.. all the encounters we fight in raids literally prove that every time.

    So what does it matter who's horn the lore toots the most?




    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    Maybe I just know more about alliance night elves, whilst you know more about the smaller areas that don't have a true impact on the overall story?
    I'm not just talking about the alliance night elves.

    I've also made that clear to you, however they are included because the Shen'dralar are with them. However as far as I know the Moonguard, Nightborne and Farondis are not with them ..although it's likely the Farondis are thanks to the portals in Stormwind, and it's quite possible the Moonguard will be allied with them and train them. The Nightborne have the Duskguard who are Moonguard that styed in the city... but obviously the Moonguard outside would have fought many more battles and face many more dangers, which is why they were able to take out far many more Nightborne than were able to take them out.

    Still, the Shen'dralar as we discussed earlier on, have not been shown to be the greatest fighters - their arcane profile lends itself to magical wonders, creating things with magic, magical technology , devices and making use of magical theory.. not necessarily fighting. We know they aren't weaklings though because they fought in the war of the ancients, and have since been helping the Darnassians... but again, their strength is magical theory and it's practical applications to constructive and creative outlets.


    The Moonguard are the ones that are the fighters. Blood elves too as we've seen. Blood elves have not focused on expanding magical theory or creating things with magic or advancing magical knowledge for anything apart from fighting.


    I am basically agreeing with you, but your reply will ignore ALL of this, and you'd state something I'm not arguing against you about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    You two need to stop worry about the night elves not being as perfect as they were, during the Empire.
    I'm not claiming the night elves are perfect, nor arguing for that. They don't need to be shown as perfect as they were in the pre-sundering empire, because they weren't perfect. Not in the last period of that era, because they'd fallen out of balance.. so despite their advanced civilization, they had become imbalanced, they were closer to perfection before that.

    But I'm not worried about that, they're in a better state now than they were at the end of Azshara's reign.. just because they don't have 15 major grand metropolises, insane numbers, and all the heights of civilization to see, doesn't mean anything to my points. They will get he evidence in time, as long as they maintain balance they would be the most stable and most successful group overall

    This is what you would expect about people who have a lot more experience with you, are older than you and have more knowledge than you. It doesn't mean they are more creative than you, it doesn't mean you can't do things they can't or cannot discover new powerful things too.. it just means they are ahead of you, and have had time to learn from mistakes to make things better for themselves.. it's the same race and a slightly better version, more balanced version, this will eventually show.


    Blood elves aren't doing the best thing for themselves if all they are focusing is destruction. didn't the Darnassians for 10,000 years only focus on hunting demons and anyone who was trying to use/discover magic - to stop them summoning the legion? Well that doesn't lend itself to progress and developments, which is why they made no progressing terms of civilization and arcane knowledge, but they made phenomenal progress inn terms of nature knowledge.

    However other night elven groups like the Shen'dralar and those in Suramar didn't lose anything or stop anything and continued making progress. Moonguard and Farondis too.. (except Farondis as ghosts really could do little with what they discovered).. these night elves will be far far ahead of the Darnassians in terms of arcane knowledge, and also ahead of the Thalassians too.

    Surely you can see that.

    Don't put words in my mouth.. again. You do this all the time, you write replies quoting people, but saying things totally unrelated to what they say. You didn't just there again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    Yes, the arcane has gone into other races, but you'll find something the night elves are masters of. Druidism for instance? You say they are diverse, so you'll find something that stands out...it's just not the arcane anymore.
    Night elf priests are not masters of druidism
    Night elf highborne are not masters of druidism
    Night elf mages/moonguard are not masters of druidism
    Night elf demon hunters are not masters of druidism
    Night elf Wardens are not masters of druidism
    Night elf sentinels are not masters of druidism

    Stop generalising this race, Stop generalising this race, Stop generalising this race, Stop generalising this race, Stop generalising this race, Stop generalising this race, Stop generalising this race, Stop generalising this race, Stop generalising this race, Stop generalising this race, Stop generalising this race, Stop generalising this race, Stop generalising this race, Stop generalising this race, Stop generalising this race, Stop generalising this race, Stop generalising this race, Stop generalising this race, Stop generalising this race, Stop generalising this race, Stop generalising this race, Stop generalising this race, Stop generalising this race, Stop generalising this race, Stop generalising this race, Stop generalising this race, Stop generalising this race, Stop generalising this race, Stop generalising this race, Stop generalising this race, Stop generalising this race, Stop generalising this race, Stop generalising this race, Stop generalising this race, Stop generalising this race, Stop generalising this race, Stop generalising this race, Stop generalising this race, Stop generalising this race, Stop generalising this race, Stop generalising this race, Stop generalising this race, Stop generalising this race, Stop generalising this race, Stop generalising this race, Stop generalising this race, Stop generalising this race, Stop generalising this race, Stop generalising this race, Stop generalising this race, Stop generalising this race, Stop generalising this race, Stop generalising this race, Stop generalising this race,


    How many time do you need to pointed out that this race has several nations and groups..some of those groups are super advanced at arcane, some are super advanced at druidism, some are super advanced in priestly ways, some super advanced at fel magic.

    Illidari are a night elf faction that also have blood elves and other races join in
    Druids are a night elf faction that also have other races join in
    Priests of Elune are a night elf faction that currently only open to night elven kind (ie.e night elves and Nightborne, possibly some worgen have joined - i don't know. we saw some join the sentinel army, but not seen any as priestesses of Elune)
    Highborne are a night elven caste and order highly advanced in arcane magic
    Nightborne are a night elven nation city state, highly advanced in arcane magic
    Shen'dralar are also another night elven nation state, separate from the Darnassians, but recently joined them (think of Nightborne joining but less anorexic)
    Farondis are night elven faction highly advanced in arcane magic.
    Moonguard (though a remnant) are a night elven faction highly advanced in arcane magic.

    Night elves have many groups, nations, factions, that do diverse things. They are famous for being the best druids, but also the best mages too (Highborne/Nightborne) - and magical combatants (Moonguard/duskguard). Their priests are also famous at being a powerful and very knowledgeable entity skilled in diverse areas..not just light magic, and not just combat.


    What is your point?
    What is your point?
    What is your point?
    What is your point?
    What is your point?
    What is your point?
    What is your point?
    What is your point?
    What is your point?
    What is your point?
    What is your point?
    What is your point?
    What is your point?
    What is your point?
    What is your point?
    What is your point?
    What is your point?
    What is your point?
    What is your point?
    What is your point?
    Last edited by Mace; 2021-11-20 at 10:55 PM.

  13. #453
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    SNIP
    Have you ever considered that maybe I put the nelfs down, because you find subtle ways to put the Sin'dorei down?

    How about this? We both agree that the night elf mages and sin'dorei mages have huge strengths, but also weaknesses and that both are on par with each other, when you look at their strengths, which are different, but marry up to the same sorts of outcomes?

    Advanced knowledge for nelfs
    Practical Arcane use for the Sin'dorei?

    Deal?

  14. #454
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    @Tanaria - night elves are a race that wield both the magic of the forest and the magic of the stars - the arcane

    They have groups that are at the very top of both.

    Blood elves share arcane mastery with the night elves who are great at that, but because of history the various groups are at different stages of knowledge and advancement - surely you can see that.

    Night elves wield the magic of the stars in various ways. The priests have a way, the druids have a way, but so do the mages and they are the origin of that craft, it’s longest users and most advanced, knowledgeable and developed in that field would be amongst their race and the groups that are specifically dedicated to it.


    They also wield the magic of the forest, of nature and life, we see this also in the druids mainly and it’s a different magic. It might be related but it’s different.


    The people who think night elves only wield the magic of the forest are ignoring swathes of lore, ignoring the Highborne, the Nightborne, the Shen’dralar and Moonguard too, the entire origin of the night elves and the entire Pre-sundering era, having sudden amnesia about Azshara and the first invasion of the legion which had 3 novels dedicated to it. It is a lot to ignore. It doesn’t matter how small their numbers are currently, we know this means nothing (just look at voidbelves, Illidari, Gnomes and pretty much most wow races) . What matters is who is around and their capability.


    night elven demon hunters are also the pinnacle of fel isers amongst the playable race. Blood elves also joined them here and those Illidari blood elves are on par. Initially the night elves were superior being the teachers that trained the blood elves. But blood elves have caught up

    ...

    this is the definition of hypocrisy.
    @Beloren. Good for you. Every race is supposed to appeal to different people. It’s jot about who is stronger or has more. Every race has something nice and great about them. If you like ine races version of the same thing over another. Great. If you prefer purple to gold then good.

    there is so much variety in wow and blizzard didn’t make it a black and white thing. Blizzard didn’t make it - “if you like forests the. Only night elves are for you” if that was the case, why give them a priesthood? Why call them star people ? Why give them arcane magic and the origin of it? Why give highborne , Nightborne, moonguard, the ore sundering reign. Why give them cities and forests and temples?

    it’s silly to ignore all the aspects to night elves just for one
    Quite nicely put that bolded bit.. you see, this is the type of discussion I'd like to explore in these topics rather than who's ore powerful than who, or numbers - those things mean nothing in wo even as a god you can be brought down by a minnow or 20 man raid of them. And how many numbers of what race or faction, or group that does this magic actually also means nothing.

    You could have 5 magic users in the entire race, if those 5 however are extraordinary, the magic they bring is all that is needed, supersede, keep abreast with a nation full of magic users. It's who you have, not how many.


    The Magic of the Stars

    You make a good point about this.... I think this is a night elf thing.. because we see it only in night elf and nightborne mages, night elf/borne priests, and off course druids, - Elune's offensive spells are all in this category

    Question is, do the nightborne and night elf mages access this through arcane manipulation or through Elune.. or both?

    Racially, they should be able to access through Elune, but as arcane masters they would also be able to do this from knowledge.

    This assumes ofc the priesthood and druid actually need Elune to cast these spells rather than she simply being the inspiration or the accelerant to cast or boost those spells beyond normal mage-like capability.

    The blood elves have blood magic as their unique speciality. While void elves it's void magic, Nightborne have chrono magic it's their unique speciality.

    Yes I know blood elves are great at fire too, Nightborne at arcane, but so are the other elven races - at least i would imagine both night elven races and void elves would be good too - so it's not unique.


    Nightborne and Night elves - both do star magic, but night elves have an extra dimension because their priests and druids do
    Blood elves v


    Humans and high elves are not as intensely into magic as the other races.. While they do have mages great at magic, night elves have an entire nation (Shen'dralar and their new Highborne caste, as well as Moonguard and Farondis on this), Nightborne have an entire nation on this, blood elves are very much dedicated to this in a way exiled high elves have not been shown too, and void elves have been shown to be pretty much heavy into arcane magic alongside void.


    High elves don't have a specific nation or group dedicated here, just individuals, Humans do have a nation, Dalaran, but then Dalaran is quite mixed, more like an international centre and there is no magical speciality, people from all races bring their specialities there, and humans aren't known to have any unique magical field like like each of the elf sub races. - i would have said maybe necromancy/domination magic, but there is no nation for that, it's not specialised in in Dalaran.

  15. #455
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    Have you ever considered that maybe I put the nelfs down, because you find subtle ways to put the Sin'dorei down?

    How about this? We both agree that the night elf mages and sin'dorei mages have huge strengths, but also weaknesses and that both are on par with each other, when you look at their strengths, which are different, but marry up to the same sorts of outcomes?

    Advanced knowledge for nelfs
    Practical Arcane use for the Sin'dorei?

    Deal?
    Deal, this is the reality of the situation - the elves are all very powerful at magic, but they also have different strengths - especiallyin the new areas like Beloren above is pointing out.

    All elves are good at arcane magic, but Highborne/moonguard/Nightborne types that are part of the night elf and Nightborne factions have been at that he longest - but it never meant that humans weren't comparable nor did it means that blood elves couldn't match, it just meant they had more knowledge and experience.

    however they also have their unique types of magic, only night elves seem to do star magic.. some races have learnt a few tricks there - those who learnt druidism off the night elves, their druids would be able to do a little bit, but it doesn't compare to night elven and Nightborne mages/priest etc who'd have a lot more.

    No one else can do blood magic than the blood magisters, and we know the void elves can't, because it wasn't blood magisters that became void elves, it was normal magisters.

    Similarly no other elf group does void magic on the level of void elves, though all the elf groups have priests, including night elves that go further with the night warrior, but not like void elves.

    Nightborne would be chrono magic


    So what about nature magic? well nature magic is not a racial related magic that is arcane based, all druids do nature magic, as well as some shaman, While kaldorei have a lot of druids, many races can now be druids, and likely Nightborne soon too.. so nature magic doesn't count.. we are talking about arcane related magics and the strengths each arce has.

    We don't know how well star magic does vs blood magic, vs void magic vs chronomagic. in battle.


    Finally, I guess we all like elves - why are we putting ach other down, we should be teaming up more against human washing of the alliance, orc washing of the horde - humans shining too brightly in magic over elves, and actually if you think about it, why should elves let the factions mean more to them, than each other? They might have disagreements and even hatreds, but these should e smaller in the larger scheme. Right now, the elves seem to be controlled by the faction narrative, given their ag and awareness, actually they should be trying to control the faction narrative not be controlled by it - which means they would esteem themselves more than they would their faction allies.

    i think Thalassians and night elves should actually prefer themselves over humans, draenei, orcs, trolls an d other races IT's the one family right?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    Quite nicely put that bolded bit.. you see, this is the type of discussion I'd like to explore in these topics rather than who's ore powerful than who, or numbers - those things mean nothing in wo even as a god you can be brought down by a minnow or 20 man raid of them. And how many numbers of what race or faction, or group that does this magic actually also means nothing.

    You could have 5 magic users in the entire race, if those 5 however are extraordinary, the magic they bring is all that is needed, supersede, keep abreast with a nation full of magic users. It's who you have, not how many.


    The Magic of the Stars

    You make a good point about this.... I think this is a night elf thing.. because we see it only in night elf and nightborne mages, night elf/borne priests, and off course druids, - Elune's offensive spells are all in this category

    Question is, do the nightborne and night elf mages access this through arcane manipulation or through Elune.. or both?

    Racially, they should be able to access through Elune, but as arcane masters they would also be able to do this from knowledge.

    This assumes ofc the priesthood and druid actually need Elune to cast these spells rather than she simply being the inspiration or the accelerant to cast or boost those spells beyond normal mage-like capability.

    The blood elves have blood magic as their unique speciality. While void elves it's void magic, Nightborne have chrono magic it's their unique speciality.

    Yes I know blood elves are great at fire too, Nightborne at arcane, but so are the other elven races - at least i would imagine both night elven races and void elves would be good too - so it's not unique.


    Nightborne and Night elves - both do star magic, but night elves have an extra dimension because their priests and druids do
    Blood elves v


    Humans and high elves are not as intensely into magic as the other races.. While they do have mages great at magic, night elves have an entire nation (Shen'dralar and their new Highborne caste, as well as Moonguard and Farondis on this), Nightborne have an entire nation on this, blood elves are very much dedicated to this in a way exiled high elves have not been shown too, and void elves have been shown to be pretty much heavy into arcane magic alongside void.


    High elves don't have a specific nation or group dedicated here, just individuals, Humans do have a nation, Dalaran, but then Dalaran is quite mixed, more like an international centre and there is no magical speciality, people from all races bring their specialities there, and humans aren't known to have any unique magical field like like each of the elf sub races. - i would have said maybe necromancy/domination magic, but there is no nation for that, it's not specialised in in Dalaran.
    Night elves and star magic/culture in game is like Draenei and magic crystal tech - there is visualisation in game, mention in lore, but almost ZERO characterisation in the in-game story, little to no explanations, and very little depth in it.


    So it's hard to discuss this, we'd mainly be theorising,#

    Here is what we know so far.

    1. Elune and the Well of Eternity (source on Azeroth) - are tied. How is not specified, but most of us reckon Elune used the Well to transform the night elves - this is where the arcane affinity of all elves come from
    2. Elune is celestial related - the moon is the avatar, and the stars are the night elves connected to her as in the night sky - the energy source is arcane
    3. The priests were the first to study the well in depth - they did so to try and understand more of Elune, they were likely the first arcane spell casters and know hows- the night elf priesthood is unlike any other, they wield arcane spells and they are also martial warriors (sentinels and huntresses) in addition to having a temple component.
    The conclusion some of us reached is that magecraft developed from some priests or other night elves taking those arcane studies for practical applications and understanding the universe, this is what developed into the mage class... This directly implies that the priesthood have their own teaching s on the arcane and spell casting, but the approach is different. And only those in the order are taught. The priesthood would be more spiritually focused, faith and spell casting would be lined, even if the goddess isn't always directly involved. Faith would inspire their research and advancement, but the focus won't be on creating conveniences and wonders - but rather a sacred thing.

    Elune would also factor in here, whether it is through faith inspired science/arcane spellcasting or empowering arcane spells supernaturally. Evidence?
    Well it's more like clues that point to or support this. Firstly the priesthood is very well respected, even at the height of Azshara's power - the lore says their society was a complex intertwining, this implies the priesthood had demonstrable power, and it wasn't' just faith teaching s alone. When you see spells like starfall, that's powerful stuff especially if it is empowered by a goddess, a mage won't be able to match that - - which is why the priesthood could not be removed. Also too many night elves, including Highborne trusted and revered Elune even if they were less dedicated to her at the end of the age than they had been.


    4. We see astrological towers in night elf civilization, they are called astrology mage towers - showing there is a tie between the two.

    5. Night elf pokes and quotes also involve the stars - stars guide you, stars watch over you

    6. Night elf priest magic involves a lot of moon and star calling , and druidism class, based on night elf culture also has it's arcane balance component full of star magic.. but it is never explained - we theorise that all night elves, from the early teachings of the priest know how to use arcane spells calling down from the stars, and those who are well trained can do the powerful stuff. We don't think it is Elune answering the prayer for those spells, we think it is night elves casting them but their faith in Elune both inspires and empowers many of these spells. Some of them however are prayers, which is why it's so powerful - the reason is because the night elves are so old and arcane steeped in knowledge - even when the mage class ended because magecraft was banned, we see the components in the druid and priest classes of the night elves used again from WC3 battle against the legion onwards, we don't see the mage ones there because no night elf mage from Eldre'thalas or Suramar took part in that battle, we see that later when they show up in game.


    Conclusion: The star magic is perfect for a racial night elf thing, because it supports the origin lore, it is common in their priest class, their druid class in addition to their mage class being arcane in type and plays a large role in their culture.
    It fits their racial theme and the name of the race "children of hte star"

    If blizzard ever did racial spells or expanded them - night elves offensive spells would be star magic (like the 1% crit and haste ), utility spells would be night magic but maybe they could throw in something from nature magic too, however that has been only druid - we don't see night elf priest or mages or demon hunters, sentinels etc use nature magic, they use star and night magic, only druids use nature magic - so far).


    Nightborne
    Nightborne technically are children of the night - the pre-sundering kaldorei culture is their emphasis, but they do have star magic. However their key unique identifier is chronomagic mastery.

    I personally feel night elves should also have a strong star magic field - because it's part of the kaldorei culture, I also feel they should have druids because of their night elven nature and their lore that has Farodin the Valewalker and Val'Sharah druids in Suramar.. the Arcan'dor is the new centre of their life source - that is based on druidism and magecraft - the original night elf vision - and this is what they are..they are just different looking night elves focusing on only one side of kaldorei culture, and it is fitting they open up to druidism and their priests are Elune ones that can show other sides to the kaldorei priesthood.


    Like void elves have some similar blood elf sounding lines, so do Nightborne have some night elf sounding ones, including "We see the stars once more".. showing that after 10,000 years, they still love the stars even though they are children of the night.. which well also involves the stars right?

    So it should be there.

    I am happy about night elves having a heavier emphasis on stars, while Nightborne perhaps do so on night magic and chornomagic.

    There is a night magic side to Elune - tapping into void - we see this employed by the Wardens, but very little of it in night elf experiences.. I'd like to see more of this and it c

    you see, just like Highmountain Tauren and normal Tauren are similar, so too are Nightborne and night elves.. same stock, it's just that he emphasis and way of living is different. Nightborne are entirely city based, while night elves, city is just part of a much large culture that has a strong forest base and priest base. Nightborne are entirely pre-sundering culture, but the Darnassians (not all night elves) are a post long vigil culture, that ditched that culture - however the Highborne caste follow that culture, and there are many aspects of that culture that are just plain old kaldorei.. it's the civilization that is different mainly.

    Nightborne are strictly in the old system, Darnassians are not, although their Highborne caste is, the rest are not. system and culture are different, but blizzard hasn't delved into night elf culture yet - this is why it remains largely just visible in the art and class spell work of druids and night elf casters like the priestesses and Tallindreda the dryad in the starting area, very much like the draenei one.

  16. #456
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Deal, this is the reality of the situation - the elves are all very powerful at magic, but they also have different strengths - especiallyin the new areas like Beloren above is pointing out.

    All elves are good at arcane magic, but Highborne/moonguard/Nightborne types that are part of the night elf and Nightborne factions have been at that he longest - but it never meant that humans weren't comparable nor did it means that blood elves couldn't match, it just meant they had more knowledge and experience.

    however they also have their unique types of magic, only night elves seem to do star magic.. some races have learnt a few tricks there - those who learnt druidism off the night elves, their druids would be able to do a little bit, but it doesn't compare to night elven and Nightborne mages/priest etc who'd have a lot more.

    No one else can do blood magic than the blood magisters, and we know the void elves can't, because it wasn't blood magisters that became void elves, it was normal magisters.

    Similarly no other elf group does void magic on the level of void elves, though all the elf groups have priests, including night elves that go further with the night warrior, but not like void elves.

    Nightborne would be chrono magic


    So what about nature magic? well nature magic is not a racial related magic that is arcane based, all druids do nature magic, as well as some shaman, While kaldorei have a lot of druids, many races can now be druids, and likely Nightborne soon too.. so nature magic doesn't count.. we are talking about arcane related magics and the strengths each arce has.

    We don't know how well star magic does vs blood magic, vs void magic vs chronomagic. in battle.


    Finally, I guess we all like elves - why are we putting ach other down, we should be teaming up more against human washing of the alliance, orc washing of the horde - humans shining too brightly in magic over elves, and actually if you think about it, why should elves let the factions mean more to them, than each other? They might have disagreements and even hatreds, but these should e smaller in the larger scheme. Right now, the elves seem to be controlled by the faction narrative, given their ag and awareness, actually they should be trying to control the faction narrative not be controlled by it - which means they would esteem themselves more than they would their faction allies.

    i think Thalassians and night elves should actually prefer themselves over humans, draenei, orcs, trolls an d other races IT's the one family right?
    At this stage, the Thalassian Elves of the Horde are the main race that is leading the faction. (Well, the other leaders are looking to Lor'themar as the Horde's leader. Not "Warchief", but Lor'themar is acting as the leader.)

    At the end of the day, no matter the preference - all Elves' magical preference comes back to the Arcane. It's just different sorts of angles, that do lead to the same outcomes.
    Advanced arcane knowledge for the night elves is extremely beneficial, but that doesn't always result in well established practical methods.
    Likewise, advanced practical arcane skills for the Blood Elves is extremely beneficial, but the results can be chaotic due to a lack of arcane knowledge. (Yes, Silvermoon does have libraries, but the knowledge side is heavily outweighed by the Practical side.)

  17. #457
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    At this stage, the Thalassian Elves of the Horde are the main race that is leading the faction. (Well, the other leaders are looking to Lor'themar as the Horde's leader. Not "Warchief", but Lor'themar is acting as the leader.)
    You don't find this odd? I do, very odd, and very "not horde"-like, withotu a proper story to show the taransition to blood elf leadership and ownership of the horde, , it seems very interim, just like Lor'themar's leadership of the blood elves.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    At the end of the day, no matter the preference - all Elves' magical preference comes back to the Arcane. It's just different sorts of angles, that do lead to the same outcomes.
    Advanced arcane knowledge for the night elves is extremely beneficial, but that doesn't always result in well established practical methods.
    I agree with this statement, except the last 3 words, I would just say it's currently not very visible in game.. practical is not just limited to battle. If the Moonguard join the Darnassians, I'm sure their arcane prowress in battle would be un-rivalled by all except for the void elves who's void magic knowledge will make up the gap in arcane knowledge and the blood elves, who's blood and fire magic expertise can also bridge the knowledge gap, both blood elves and void elves have faced very desperate situations that should allow their ability to perform in battle to rival the moonguard at this stage. This would not have been the case even in TBC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    Likewise, advanced practical arcane skills for the Blood Elves is extremely beneficial, but the results can be chaotic due to a lack of arcane knowledge. (Yes, Silvermoon does have libraries, but the knowledge side is heavily outweighed by the Practical side.)
    you mean combat orientated arcane skills. I would agree here too. Blood elves greatest development has been war in magic, this is why i think they'd be on par with moonguard types.

    But then the shen'dralar would have progressed in combat ability too, and the Darnassians they trained, unlike them, have been use to fighting for 10k years, they've also faced all the struggles together since cata, they'd have improved a lot, they don't have new types of magic, but they do have the ancient knowledge advantage.

    It appears blizzard is taking the elven magic users down specific paths more and more.

    Blood elf = blood and fire branches of arcane
    Night elves = star and moon magic
    Void elves = void and frost magic
    Nightborne = chrono and star magic

  18. #458
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    You don't find this odd? I do, very odd, and very "not horde"-like, withotu a proper story to show the taransition to blood elf leadership and ownership of the horde, , it seems very interim, just like Lor'themar's leadership of the blood elves.
    Lor'themar has been leading the Blood Elves of the Horde ever since Kael'thas left. Hell, it was Sylvanas and Lor'themar who made the prime negotiations for the Blood Elves to join with Thrall's Horde. And it's neither "Horde-like" nor "Alliance-like" as both factions choose their leaders, but in times where leadership is key, the Horde as a whole, have looked to Lor'themar as their leader.

    Now, Lor'themar is the only Horde leader who's been in the Horde for over a decade, who people can look up to. He is a protector and guardian of his people and he is clearly extending that to the Horde as a whole, so don't cross him. But he's calm. After the Fourth War, the Horde needs a steady and stable figure like Lor'themar to take charge and lead them through these times.
    It's quite exciting when you consider his counterpart is Turaylon who is more zealous than Lor'themar and is far more of an aggressor than the Sin'dorei leader.

    Genn and Mathias aren't keen on Turaylon's leadership of Stormwind, whereas Orgrimmar is resolute with Lor'themar leading the Horde, whilst Thrall and Baine are away.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    I agree with this statement, except the last 3 words, I would just say it's currently not very visible in game.. practical is not just limited to battle. If the Moonguard join the Darnassians, I'm sure their arcane prowress in battle would be un-rivalled by all except for the void elves who's void magic knowledge will make up the gap in arcane knowledge and the blood elves, who's blood and fire magic expertise can also bridge the knowledge gap, both blood elves and void elves have faced very desperate situations that should allow their ability to perform in battle to rival the moonguard at this stage. This would not have been the case even in TBC.
    But practical based knowledge that the Blood Elves pack in boat-loads has seen far more benefits than the night elves' knowledge based study.
    I also think your neglecting the fact that the current Moon Guard is also in a desperate situation with the majority of their organisation being extinct. We're told that, by the NPC's.
    We're also told that said Moon Guard survivors would like to visit the "vast libraries of Silvermoon."

    I think their is too much over-emphasis on what the Moon Guard was and not realizing what it is now.

    What it was under Ravencrest is vastly different to what it is, under those 3 night elves who seem to be the only survivors.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    you mean combat orientated arcane skills. I would agree here too. Blood elves greatest development has been war in magic, this is why i think they'd be on par with moonguard types.

    But then the shen'dralar would have progressed in combat ability too, and the Darnassians they trained, unlike them, have been use to fighting for 10k years, they've also faced all the struggles together since cata, they'd have improved a lot, they don't have new types of magic, but they do have the ancient knowledge advantage.

    It appears blizzard is taking the elven magic users down specific paths more and more.

    Blood elf = blood and fire branches of arcane
    Night elves = star and moon magic
    Void elves = void and frost magic
    Nightborne = chrono and star magic
    The Shen'dralar's ability to combat fighting is extremely lackluster, by comparison of the Thalassian Elves. I mean, if they are on par with them, then they shouldn't have been so easily thwarted, twice by the Horde.

    The fact is - in that area, they are extremely out of practice. It's why we don't see any of them as "Battle Mages", whereas the Sin'dorei have Battle Magi in the boat loads (as well as Pheonix and Blood Magi.)

    They have strengths in other areas, such as ancient knowledge. It's just not battle experience. That's waned over the years since they retreated to one small section of their city. If they were able to keep the Ogres and Satyr out of their city, then they would hold more ground to be good combat Magi, but they don't - and they didn't.

    They might have had battle mages during the Empire, but I can't see an organisation that has been culled thrice over, having this large portion of battle combat mages, who are on par with Sin'dorei, Shal'dorei and Ren'dorei - or even the Humans.

    And again, I think their is an over-hype on the Moon Guard, when we're told by the NPC's themselves - the Moon Guard is no more.
    I'm not trying to put the night elves down, but I'm going off what is stated in-game. During your precious, Legion expansion - this is what is said.
    Don't tell me to "THINK!!" That's just patronizing.

  19. #459
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    Lor'themar has been leading the Blood Elves of the Horde ever since Kael'thas left. Hell, it was Sylvanas and Lor'themar who made the prime negotiations for the Blood Elves to join with Thrall's Horde. And it's neither "Horde-like" nor "Alliance-like" as both factions choose their leaders, but in times where leadership is key, the Horde as a whole, have looked to Lor'themar as their leader.

    Now, Lor'themar is the only Horde leader who's been in the Horde for over a decade, who people can look up to. He is a protector and guardian of his people and he is clearly extending that to the Horde as a whole, so don't cross him. But he's calm. After the Fourth War, the Horde needs a steady and stable figure like Lor'themar to take charge and lead them through these times.
    It's quite exciting when you consider his counterpart is Turaylon who is more zealous than Lor'themar and is far more of an aggressor than the Sin'dorei leader.

    Genn and Mathias aren't keen on Turaylon's leadership of Stormwind, whereas Orgrimmar is resolute with Lor'themar leading the Horde, whilst Thrall and Baine are away.
    Lor'themar's character does lend it self to a more peaceful reasoned reign. but then the blood elves have been the "don't fuck with me" elf group since their introduction.. powerful and aggressive, pulling all their development into destructive applications of magic to overcome enemies. outside the Moonguard they are probably the most skilled magical combatants , and their new magical advances in blood and fire magic have basically allowed them, I think to be able to match even the ancient kaldorei masters.

    The strength of the kaldorei Shen'dralar/quel'dorei are in knowledge, practical and theory for progress and development , building and creativity.. the blood elves have not put any effort into this, the void elves are scholars exploring and mastering new magic, whiles the grand purpose is for defence ( a blood elf minded pursuit), it isn't quite as driven imo.

    That Lor'themar might be the peace guy when his rae has been very aggressive/war like in sharp contrst to their former high elven selves, would be ironic, but it is his character.
    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post

    But practical based knowledge that the Blood Elves pack in boat-loads has seen far more benefits than the night elves' knowledge based study.
    you mean we've seen the development of the blood elves because of their screen time, it's not that the night elves don't have anything, they've largely been ignored. I would never take the lack of showing something to mean nothing has happened. Cataclysm is a prime example, where nothing happens in the main world because it hasn't been updated, not because actually nothing has happened.

    Books and other stories sometimes tell you.. when the Shen'dralar are introduced, you aren't shown how good they are but you are told, both in the lore and in the novels. In Legion they chose to show other night elven magic groups. We did see a couple of the Shen'drlaar trained Highborne, the twins in Azsuna, wearing Kirin'tor tabards,, but the biggest night elven magical displays came in the Nightborne, Moonguard and Farondis, and they were all very impressive. By association, we get an idea of what the Shen'dralar must be like, even though we aren't shown, because they are closer to each other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    I also think your neglecting the fact that the current Moon Guard is also in a desperate situation with the majority of their organisation being extinct. We're told that, by the NPC's.
    We're also told that said Moon Guard survivors would like to visit the "vast libraries of Silvermoon."
    What exactly am I neglecting? Their desperate situation doesn't change anything I've said. Their strongest, oldest and most experienced fighters - the leaders survived and we see them do astonishing feats against the very powerful Nightborne kin attacking them.. although completely overwhelmed, the Moonguard remnant are basically humiliating the Nightborne, this is no small feat - and actually is a demonstration of why they are so legendary. These Moonguard Night elves are not like their Kalimdor kin who've put off magic for 10,000 years and are very rusty when we meet them in cataclysm (which won't be the case 10 years later - you ahve to bear in mind)..

    And without the context of the Darnassian/Thalassian enmity due to events during the long vigil, it should occur to us that ther eis actually no reason for night elves and Thalassian elves to be at enmity. As the only ew elven city since the sundering, full of magic and standing, it stands to reason a magically oreintated night elf would want to see it.

    This is why I think that the broken Isle night elves could easily be part of the Nightborne group.. they've no reason to hate blood elves, a lot of evidence of working together with Thalyssra, and their corporation has never meant that they would hate Kalimdor night elves or need to . Afterall, even though a different faction, Malfurion is still the leader of the druids (whether you're a horde druid or alliance) and Tyrande is still High priestess, regardless if your night elf priestess is Nightborne or night elven on broken isles associated with the nightborne.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    I think their is too much over-emphasis on what the Moon Guard was and not realizing what it is now.
    I think blizzard showed the Moonguard were really the legendary fighters we are told they are. They are not diminished or rubbished like the night elves of kalimdor were durin most of wow, this is a portrayal that matches the lore.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    What it was under Ravencrest is vastly different to what it is, under those 3 night elves who seem to be the only survivors.
    Much more than 3 moonguard survived, Or do you forget the constant dailies we have that ask us to rescue Moonguard survivors and apprentices?




    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    The Shen'dralar's ability to combat fighting is extremely lackluster, by comparison of the Thalassian Elves. I mean, if they are on par with them, then they shouldn't have been so easily thwarted, twice by the Horde.
    But that's the thing, they weren't thwarted by the horde twice. In Dire Maul, they never actually fight the horde. Remember you can gain reputation with them. The lore tells us they were driven out. We are never shown. All we do is kill Tothelrdrinn - maybe in the time between the death of Immol'thar and Tothelrdrinn, while we are gaining rep with them, they come to their senses and find the situation untenable, flee to regather - but that's just a guess, we arne't given details.

    as for the "second" time, if you are referring to Azshara zone questlines from the horde, those aren't Shen'drlar the horde come up against.

    To be fair, the Shen'dralar's fighting ability has never been shown. This is due more to night elf negligence as blizzard seemed to care more about showing horde upgrades and humans hugging it.

    IF you hadn't noticed, night elves and many other races, were given rather flimsy upgrade stories in cataclysm, and many of the threads, strands and changes not followed up in game at all. included in this would obviously be the Shen'dralar. in comparison the horde, in line with the previous two expansions got powerful displays, good lore progression and story focus centres.

    We are told and can read in between the lines that they are exceptionally good and match their reputation even though we haven't been treated to what they can do. They are not unique in this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    The fact is - in that area, they are extremely out of practice. It's why we don't see any of them as "Battle Mages", whereas the Sin'dorei have Battle Magi in the boat loads (as well as Pheonix and Blood Magi.)
    This is out rightly false. you are confusing the 10,000 year out of practice Darnassian magicians - recently returned and the new night elf novices with the Shen'dralar. you keep doing this, and you have to be reminded EVERY TIME - the night elven mages you fight as a horde character are Darnasisans, Highborne and Moonguard who put off magic for 10,000 years and were solrely out of practice, having only been training for a few weeks.


    And that was in cataclysm, a few weeks after picking up magic. the Shen'dralar are a different kettle altogether, Wolfheart mentions how abashed they are at not being able to keep their skills honed and sharp, the lore tells us they've been feverishly studying magic, their fascination (like most Highborne) for the last 10,000 years, and how incredibly skilled arcanists they are.. you can't confuse them because you don't think much of ngiht elves. It's one thing if you didn't know, but I've told you this now. So don't mix them up anymore.

    Just becuase you don't have powerful visual displays doesn't negate what the lore and the novels tell you. They are just as valid. You sometimes need to use your imagination, because the game doesn't show everything that is written about the world or it's races, it never has. We were told of the kaldorei civilziation, 16 years before we actually saw what it was like in Suramar, and 2 ears later in Zin'Azshari with the Azshara Warbringers.

    this is not the only exaple, many things about many races are often said, but not always shown. We even have places on the map in Azeroth that we still haven't been shown yet. Just because w'ere not been shown, does that mean we should assume nothing exists there.?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    They have strengths in other areas, such as ancient knowledge. It's just not battle experience. That's waned over the years since they retreated to one small section of their city. If they were able to keep the Ogres and Satyr out of their city, then they would hold more ground to be good combat Magi, but they don't - and they didn't.
    you are confusing practice with combat. You don't know the state of the Shen'drlaar in combat..it has neither been mentioned nor shown. You can't assume it's rubbish. Night elf mages (regardless of whether Shen'dralar or new Darnassian or returned highborne/Moonguard Darnassian) have been stated by the devs to be as powerful as the other elven races. They didn't say knowledgeable, they said powerful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    They might have had battle mages during the Empire, but I can't see an organisation that has been culled thrice over, having this large portion of battle combat mages, who are on par with Sin'dorei, Shal'dorei and Ren'dorei - or even the Humans.
    Well considering the kirin'tor and sin'dorei were not a match for the Ngihtborne, and the nigthborne were humiliated by the Moonguard, I would say that gives you a rough idea of relative skills and strenghts.

    But then a battle mage who's knowledge of magic 10,000 years ago was way more advanced than current day, and has been fighting honing their skills over the last 10,000 years, I mean, they're going to be pretty formidable - this is the state of the Broken Isle Moonguard. Who might you add, were caught completely by aa surprise attack from their kin they were not expecting who had access to the incredible power source that is the nightwell. This is the feat of the Moonguard.

    I'm sorry, but they're on a different level to your average human, blood elf, dwarf or troll mage. Unless the lore is rubbish and means nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post

    And again, I think their is an over-hype on the Moon Guard, when we're told by the NPC's themselves - the Moon Guard is no more.
    I dind't write the lore, the legends, nor did I write the feats of the Moon Guard, blizzard did. They are what they are.

    And as for the Moonguard are no more.. learn to take things in context and not totally literally. Tyrnade said the night elves were genocided, off course they weren't wiped out, but it was close enough that it seems like that.

    With their leaders surviving and enough of their acolytes, to be honest, all the knowledge and skill survive to be passed on or training the Darnassians if they join, they may have too few numbers of the original Moonguard from the Stronghold in Suramar, but should they join the Darnassians, they can easily repopulate the battle mage order and restore it.

    Although it would take a while for the elves there to reach the level of mastery their leaders would possess.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    I'm not trying to put the night elves down, but I'm going off what is stated in-game. During your precious, Legion expansion - this is what is said.
    Don't tell me to "THINK!!" That's just patronizing.
    You clearly look down on the night elves and don't really consider the lore about them said. You constantly seem to deny or refuse to even acknowledge what you are told and often enough take very negative views.

    A typical example is you saying they are terrible at magic - and your evidence is ? your evidence is that you have not been shown what they have done. That's it. Why take such a negative view if you aren't actually putting them down?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Your problem is that while others acknowledge your points about blood elves' strenghts, you never acknowledge theirs becuas eyou have this supriority complex thing, while failing to realise blizzard has not written warcraft to have one group clearly greater than the other.. when it comes to magic, several groups are very close to one another, and sometimes they have different strengths - some.. this is in regard to combat because that's the only measurable quality that effects players. When it comes to knwoeldge and advnacement from a lore perspective, the differences re vast, as you can see night elves and draenei are very ancient and highly advanced races, even though currently most of them (exception are lightforged and nightborne) are living in rather primitive settings) due to their circumstances.

    But it really doesn't matter whether one race has advanced cities and another lives in a cave (like Dragons do), the preimium qulity for the pruposes of the game play is strengths, and basically everyone that is playable is, when it comes to combat on a similar level. There are no full front runners. Magic has - Elves, humans and draenei at the top. Melee combat has orcs, humans, trolls, tauren at the top. Ranged combat has elves and trolls. Technology has Gnomes, goblins, draenei and dwarves at the top. Subterfuge has worgen, elves, humans etc - you get the picture.

    It's more in groups
    Last edited by Mace; 2021-12-01 at 04:52 PM.

  20. #460
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Lor'themar's character does lend it self to a more peaceful reasoned reign. but then the blood elves have been the "don't fuck with me" elf group since their introduction.. powerful and aggressive, pulling all their development into destructive applications of magic to overcome enemies. outside the Moonguard they are probably the most skilled magical combatants , and their new magical advances in blood and fire magic have basically allowed them, I think to be able to match even the ancient kaldorei masters.

    The strength of the kaldorei Shen'dralar/quel'dorei are in knowledge, practical and theory for progress and development , building and creativity.. the blood elves have not put any effort into this, the void elves are scholars exploring and mastering new magic, whiles the grand purpose is for defence ( a blood elf minded pursuit), it isn't quite as driven imo.

    That Lor'themar might be the peace guy when his rae has been very aggressive/war like in sharp contrst to their former high elven selves, would be ironic, but it is his character.
    The Blood Elves aren't aggressive or "warlike" in terms of launching wars against entire nations. Not like Garrosh or Sylvanas.

    They have mainly been aggressive towards the night elves because Blizzard have wanted a "Blood Elves vs Night Elves" vibe. It's not gone over all that well, but it's what we've got. Silvermoon Blood Elf Paladins and Darnassus Night Elf Sentinels and Priests were also fighting against each other outside Lor'danel after Teldrassil was burned.
    Primarily, they are the only people that the Blood Elves have been aggressive towards.

    They are a driven people and maybe, losing the Sunwell, we'd see a more magical focus return, where we see Blood Elf Mages and Blood Elf Warlocks being the main force of Sin'dorei-story. Maybe fel-crystals could be used in the current "Ruins of Silvermoon", but that area is no longer a questing hub.
    They can go without the Sunwell and remain powerful, but we'll see.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    SNIP
    I don't think you've understood what I'm saying.

    You just see anything that so much as says "The night elves aren't as good in this field" as an immediate attack. Yet you blame me for doing it to Blood Elves.

    Why do we always have to think about night elves? Then because "It's common sense", they are ahead of everyone else..? I get it, your passionate about night elves, but don't attack me when I'm passionate about blood elves.

    Maybe you need to take some time off?

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