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  1. #461
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    The Blood Elves aren't aggressive or "warlike" in terms of launching wars against entire nations. Not like Garrosh or Sylvanas.
    Yes, agreed, they aren't war mongering, but they are aggressive. They wnt power to destroy their enemies, although it is a bit ambiguous, the blood elves aren't necessarily war mongers

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    They have mainly been aggressive towards the night elves because Blizzard have wanted a "Blood Elves vs Night Elves" vibe. It's not gone over all that well, but it's what we've got. Silvermoon Blood Elf Paladins and Darnassus Night Elf Sentinels and Priests were also fighting against each other outside Lor'danel after Teldrassil was burned.
    Primarily, they are the only people that the Blood Elves have been aggressive towards.
    No, they're the only race blizzard has shown them fighting aggressively, and I wouldn't even call it "aggressive"towards.. apart from the WoT, all the other instances were defensive retalitaions, but when they responded, they did so very aggressively. It was surprising and it put them in a new light. Not the softer more benevolent high elves we were use to.

    It reminded me of the night elves in WC3, which is why I feel blizzrd essentially trasnferred the night elf drive to the blood

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    They are a driven people and maybe, losing the Sunwell, we'd see a more magical focus return, where we see Blood Elf Mages and Blood Elf Warlocks being the main force of Sin'dorei-story. Maybe fel-crystals could be used in the current "Ruins of Silvermoon", but that area is no longer a questing hub.
    They can go without the Sunwell and remain powerful, but we'll see.
    Lore reasons, it's hard to argue with that. Although the warlock focus seemed far more in the enemy blood elves than the player faction blood elves. But yes, if you count all blood elf factions, you see a significant rise in warlocks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post

    I don't think you've understood what I'm saying.

    You just see anything that so much as says "The night elves aren't as good in this field" as an immediate attack. Yet you blame me for doing it to Blood Elves.

    Why do we always have to think about night elves? Then because "It's common sense", they are ahead of everyone else..? I get it, your passionate about night elves, but don't attack me when I'm passionate about blood elves.

    Maybe you need to take some time off?
    I think you mis-understand my responses. You have some night elf groups that are way ahead of others in magic. The shen'dralar, the Farondis, the Moonguard are way ahead of the playable faction, the Daranaassians, at least until Cataclysm. They are also ahead of the blood elves in terms of knowledge, experience etc with the arcane in gneeral.. it is this sttement tht you don't seem to like.

    But you re not being reasonable. The blood elves and darnassiasn lost over 90% of the night elven kaldorei magical knoweldge, and neither has come close to regaining the vast majority of what was lost.

    Sure in some areas they have made developments, but groups like the Nightborne, Shen'dralar, Moonguard of Moonguard stronghold and possibly Farondis have vast amounts of this knowledge our main elf groups lost.

    It isn't favouring night elves nor being passionate to point this out. The level of Draenei arcane knowledge must also greatly exceed that of the blood elves overall, however high elves have been fighting with the arcane for nearly 7,000 - and the Moonguard have for 10,000 years since the sundering, - so they're gonna be super advanced in warfare as it showed against the Nightborne.

    Now the Nightborne are an indication of how good the Shen'dralar would be, Nightborne had no conflicts to face for 10,000 years, the Shen'dralar likely had more being less enclosed, still we see their advanced knowledge was great enough to pose a formidable threat, but the quests also showed that they were a bit slack and arrogant, progress slow - which you would expect in such an idyllic state for so long.

    It is by paying attention to the lore you can make such observations and draw logical conclusions, not based on whim or fancy. Because I point out the competency of the night elves, you conclude I am passionate about them? No, you keep stressing the importance of the blood elves in one sentence then rubbish the night elves in another, I read that and I go, erm, that's not right, the lore paints a different picture.

    It makes me seem more passionate than I am. You can tell I think very highly of the blood elves, I never knock them, but if you perceive me pointing out the Nightborne, Shend'ralar and Moonguard are both more accomplished and advnaced in the arcane arts as passionate? I'm just pointing out the l re. These are all night elf groups. So when I say the night elves, I'm not referring to the Darnassians, but these ones.

  2. #462
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    I think you mis-understand my responses. You have some night elf groups that are way ahead of others in magic. The shen'dralar, the Farondis, the Moonguard are way ahead of the playable faction, the Daranaassians, at least until Cataclysm. They are also ahead of the blood elves in terms of knowledge, experience etc with the arcane in gneeral.. it is this sttement tht you don't seem to like.

    But you re not being reasonable. The blood elves and darnassiasn lost over 90% of the night elven kaldorei magical knoweldge, and neither has come close to regaining the vast majority of what was lost.

    Sure in some areas they have made developments, but groups like the Nightborne, Shen'dralar, Moonguard of Moonguard stronghold and possibly Farondis have vast amounts of this knowledge our main elf groups lost.

    It isn't favouring night elves nor being passionate to point this out. The level of Draenei arcane knowledge must also greatly exceed that of the blood elves overall, however high elves have been fighting with the arcane for nearly 7,000 - and the Moonguard have for 10,000 years since the sundering, - so they're gonna be super advanced in warfare as it showed against the Nightborne.

    Now the Nightborne are an indication of how good the Shen'dralar would be, Nightborne had no conflicts to face for 10,000 years, the Shen'dralar likely had more being less enclosed, still we see their advanced knowledge was great enough to pose a formidable threat, but the quests also showed that they were a bit slack and arrogant, progress slow - which you would expect in such an idyllic state for so long.

    It is by paying attention to the lore you can make such observations and draw logical conclusions, not based on whim or fancy. Because I point out the competency of the night elves, you conclude I am passionate about them? No, you keep stressing the importance of the blood elves in one sentence then rubbish the night elves in another, I read that and I go, erm, that's not right, the lore paints a different picture.

    It makes me seem more passionate than I am. You can tell I think very highly of the blood elves, I never knock them, but if you perceive me pointing out the Nightborne, Shend'ralar and Moonguard are both more accomplished and advnaced in the arcane arts as passionate? I'm just pointing out the l re. These are all night elf groups. So when I say the night elves, I'm not referring to the Darnassians, but these ones.
    This back and fourth is pointless as "being more accomplished" isn't written in the lore either.
    At the end of the day, Blizzard have said that the Elven Mages are as powerful as each other.

    If you or me say anything contradictory to that, we're speculating.

    So, to say the night elves are more accomplished is speculation, just like me saying the blood elves are better is speculation. Your not right and I'm not right.

    So, to say knowledge is "lost" to the other elven groups, is also wrong, because Blizzard have never said it and if such knowledge was lost. Your "it's common sense" argument, doesn't work because it's your opinion.
    I could easily speculate that clearly, not all knowledge was lost, because the Highborne were able to conjure an arcane storm over Ashenvale, which, by your standards, the former Moon Guard, who became Druids, must have overreacted to.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Lore reasons, it's hard to argue with that. Although the warlock focus seemed far more in the enemy blood elves than the player faction blood elves. But yes, if you count all blood elf factions, you see a significant rise in warlocks.
    It's only two, them being the Illidari and the Sunfury.

    Silvermoon Warlocks have their small guild called "the Sanctum" but they've never done anything.
    I remember a few Sunreaver NPC's had "Warlock" gear on, but I'm not sure if they were Sunreaver Warlocks as the Sunreavers were primarily Mages and Rangers, with a few Blood Knights.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Yes, agreed, they aren't war mongering, but they are aggressive. They wnt power to destroy their enemies, although it is a bit ambiguous, the blood elves aren't necessarily war mongers


    No, they're the only race blizzard has shown them fighting aggressively, and I wouldn't even call it "aggressive"towards.. apart from the WoT, all the other instances were defensive retalitaions, but when they responded, they did so very aggressively. It was surprising and it put them in a new light. Not the softer more benevolent high elves we were use to.

    It reminded me of the night elves in WC3, which is why I feel blizzrd essentially trasnferred the night elf drive to the blood
    I'd call it "aggressive" towards the Night Elves, because it's the Silvermoon Blood Elves that dealt with night elf spies.

    The Illidari Blood Elves likely don't care about the Alliance Night Elves, as they see their Illidari Night Elf kin as "brothers and sisters" in arms.

    Even the Sunfury during TBC, who were based at Karabor - they spoke and listened to the Night Elf Demon Hunters, with the Blood Elf Warlocks summoning and binding demons, to aid in the training of the Demon Hunter Initiates.

    I'd be quite happy if the Demon Hunters were all Night Elves and the Illidari Mages and Warlocks were all Blood Elves.
    Last edited by Tanaria; 2021-12-02 at 10:49 AM.

  3. #463
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    I'd be quite happy if the Demon Hunters were all Night Elves and the Illidari Mages and Warlocks were all Blood Elves.
    Until they release a major caster spec for DHs or give a DH skin for warlocks allowing you to be a demon Hunter fel caster. Then I bet you’d change your mind.

    Altho the class in game doesn’t show it fully as the lore does. Remember that being a demon Hunter is mastering fel magic. It’s magic first then melee. You are literally at the zenith point of both magic wielding and melee combat - which befits a long lived speices like elves are, and the harsh story of the demon hunters.

  4. #464
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Until they release a major caster spec for DHs or give a DH skin for warlocks allowing you to be a demon Hunter fel caster. Then I bet you’d change your mind.

    Altho the class in game doesn’t show it fully as the lore does. Remember that being a demon Hunter is mastering fel magic. It’s magic first then melee. You are literally at the zenith point of both magic wielding and melee combat - which befits a long lived speices like elves are, and the harsh story of the demon hunters.
    DH = mastering fel magic
    Warlock = master of summoning demons and controlling demons.

    The two are linked, but one isn't better than the other. They are both on par with each other.

  5. #465
    Over 9000! Kithelle's Avatar
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    Anyone else kinda disappointed that Nightborne don't have the option of various ear lengths like all the other elves? Lightforged even can change their tail lengths too now...so why can't Nightborne change ear length? They have some of the least options of all the races
    #WithoutRespectWeReject

  6. #466
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    This back and fourth is pointless as "being more accomplished" isn't written in the lore either.
    At the end of the day, Blizzard have said that the Elven Mages are as powerful as each other.

    If you or me say anything contradictory to that, we're speculating.

    So, to say the night elves are more accomplished is speculation, just like me saying the blood elves are better is speculation. Your not right and I'm not right.

    So, to say knowledge is "lost" to the other elven groups, is also wrong, because Blizzard have never said it and if such knowledge was lost. Your "it's common sense" argument, doesn't work because it's your opinion.
    I could easily speculate that clearly, not all knowledge was lost, because the Highborne were able to conjure an arcane storm over Ashenvale, which, by your standards, the former Moon Guard, who became Druids, must have overreacted to.

    - - - Updated - - -



    It's only two, them being the Illidari and the Sunfury.

    Silvermoon Warlocks have their small guild called "the Sanctum" but they've never done anything.
    I remember a few Sunreaver NPC's had "Warlock" gear on, but I'm not sure if they were Sunreaver Warlocks as the Sunreavers were primarily Mages and Rangers, with a few Blood Knights.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I'd call it "aggressive" towards the Night Elves, because it's the Silvermoon Blood Elves that dealt with night elf spies.

    The Illidari Blood Elves likely don't care about the Alliance Night Elves, as they see their Illidari Night Elf kin as "brothers and sisters" in arms.

    Even the Sunfury during TBC, who were based at Karabor - they spoke and listened to the Night Elf Demon Hunters, with the Blood Elf Warlocks summoning and binding demons, to aid in the training of the Demon Hunter Initiates.

    I'd be quite happy if the Demon Hunters were all Night Elves and the Illidari Mages and Warlocks were all Blood Elves.
    In reality, the Shen'dralar's story development had such interesting potential at first during Cataclysm, many Horde players were also surprised by their emergence, but Blizzard never properly developed them. Some of the arcane reforgers in Silvermoon were also Shen'dralar, I think, in the beta or something. Now, they are nothing but a token element in the night elf story, every appearance of them seem to involve them providing certain skills to the night elves, but then easily being defeated or killed by the Horde, such as in Azshara or the War of the Thorns, both in Ashenvale and then at the Burning of Teldrassil, where lots of them presumably died.

    Look how mainstream blood elf paladins are in Horde society so quickly after they were introduced. Yet night elf mages seem to be in the minority.

    Do you think the Shen'dralar could have had a better relationship with the blood elves then, or had better development at least, had some of them went to Lor'themar rather than Tyrande?

    For that matter, I think the Moon Guard might also make a re-appearance on either side, they would enhance the Shen'dralar and the nightborne story immensely.
    "Always you speak. Never do you listen! You ignore the lessons of Pandaria! You see, there is balance in all things. Wisdom etched in our very fur: Black and white. Darkness and light. When the last emperor hid our land from the rest of the world, he also preserved...our ancient enemy, the mantid. So it is with your Alliance and your Horde. They are not strong despite one another; they are strong BECAUSE of one another. You mistake your greatest strength for weakness. Do you see this?"

  7. #467
    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    Anyone else kinda disappointed that Nightborne don't have the option of various ear lengths like all the other elves? Lightforged even can change their tail lengths too now...so why can't Nightborne change ear length? They have some of the least options of all the races
    yeh.. and/or night elf style ear options would be dope on them. I've wanted to make an Elisande type toon for a long time, and when I tried the legion beta, I always thought the female toons looked much nicer with native ears..but they changed them in the release build.. having the option would be nice.

  8. #468
    Over 9000! Kithelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    yeh.. and/or night elf style ear options would be dope on them. I've wanted to make an Elisande type toon for a long time, and when I tried the legion beta, I always thought the female toons looked much nicer with native ears..but they changed them in the release build.. having the option would be nice.
    I prefer shorter ears personally (just look a little better IMO and the long ears tend to clips through weapons sheathed on the back, and clipping is a stupid pet peeve of mine lol) I never got why Void Elves look virtually like Blood Elves but they made Nightborne so radically different from Night Elves, other than they were in a rush since Lightforged also suffered from being very little difference between them and Draenei
    Last edited by Kithelle; 2021-12-03 at 10:28 PM.
    #WithoutRespectWeReject

  9. #469
    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    I prefer shorter ears personally (just look a little better IMO and the long ears tend to clips through weapons sheathed on the back, and clipping is a stupid pet peeve of mine lol) I never got why Void Elves look virtually like Blood Elves but they made Nightborne so radically different from Night Elves, other than they were in a rush since Lightforged also suffered from being very little difference between them and Draenei
    Actually they aren’t radically different. It’s just a thinner body type, and the face adjusted.

    If you were around when they did TBC beta, the original bloodbelf male was skinnier and his face accordingly smaller. They beefed him up a bit matching the face.

    The differences are size. Another example are Amanibtrolls and dark spear, they also look a lot more different because of the size difference.

    Nightborne added an extra degree of separation in the ears, but I suspect Nightborne like they are were only meant to be temporary.
    Mother nightwell caused the transformation which is reversed when they don’t get their mana juice. Eventually withering, then dying.

    Originally, Afrisiabi revealed we wipe them out, with the nightfallen being saved by the Arcan’dor.

    I extrapolate that the nightfallen rebels were going to be restored to night elf model reflecting their healing and recovery.

    However, because we put such a demand for playable Nightborne, they altered things a bit. One of them being restored back to Nightborne which doesn’t make as much sense coming from the nightfallen state or supposedely taking a substance that reverse the effects of the Nightwell.

    But here e are.

    They still look very night elven, both NPV models and player models. More easily noticeable when their first iteration had the normal night elf ears.


    However Nightborne and Zandalari are the sort of level of change from Night elf and troll you want for allied races. Not what we got for Kightforged and Highmountain. Stinks would have been a more appropriate allied race with Highmountain horns just a customisation.

  10. #470
    @OwenBurton Greeting friend. Some Important Points I think are sometimes missed.




    1. The night elves we play are not ALL night elves. We play the Darnassian faction mainly, but also three extra factions.
    a.) the Illidari faction through the DH
    b) the Highborne who are allied
    c) the Ebon blade through the DK


    my wish is for undead night elf lore to develop through the Ravencrests that are undead in BRH - would be awesome for specific undead night elf lore related to the faction by itself , then see Sylvanas' former night elf dark rangers essentially redeemed/converted by Ravencrest, and he takes his place as the leader of the undead night elves on the night elf faction


    I also wish for Farondis to be restored and actually become the civil leader of the night elves. His lore was amazing, it is clear he is respected by all night elves as he wasn't irrresponsible with magic and was the first to fight the Queen. Unlike all the other highbrone groups (shen'dralar who wiated till the last minute), nightborne who chosenot to join the rest of their city kin in marching against azshara), the Farondis are faultless - also if restored, it would be a good population boost for the night elves.




    2 The Darnassian are a forest leaning group, but they aren't exclusively forest. When we ask for great night elf cities, we are not asking for the Darnassiasn to become like the blood elves. We are asking for a great representation of kaldorei lore, to be available with the Darnassians, not for it to replace what we have, but for it to exist alongside it.


    The pre-sundering civilziations is the zenith point of the kaldorei, many Darnassians are content with their current orders - whether druidism, Elunism or fel through demon hunters, but night elves do have an impressive history and impressive civilization and city life is a part of a society. Having a great city and arcane wielders prominent there does not ignore the forest roots or heart.


    We aren't changing the night elf starting areas, or advocating removal of forests either, we want both a fabulous temple to Elune and a great city that represents the best of that part of the night elves to also be available.




    The night elves are not an exclusive forest group. Elune followers are temple based, and administer to both city and forest folk. Night elves do do cities, we play Shen'dralar, and non-druids too, who come from an extensive civilzation that was destroyed. having a city back is not against night elf lore but part of it and obviously sense.


    People misunderstand night elves immensely - They don't abhor cities or incapable of doing them.. the long vigil was a different era with a goal and unique circumstances that caused life to live that way, in addition you ahve night elves, of the druid families that prefer living in forests and remote, rural areas. this doesn't mean all night elves are like that.


    We already play kaldorei who have a city Darnassus, and then Shend'ralar Highborne who come from another city and are rebuilding the kaldorei civilization and their caste.




    3. I want to see the best the night elves have to offer for
    a) forests and nature - this means a healed Val'sharah and Ashenvale and druids tapping into the Emerald dream to boost night elf power. Shaladrassil is the dream tree, it should be used and night elf druids now have a
    b) cities and the arcane - this means a pristine great night elf city (like Zin'Azshari or Suramar), along with a restore d Eldre'thalas and Nar'thalas. Also tapping into the Well of Eternity, perhaps to build that new city , repair the old ones, and empower their magic users. further
    c) Temples and Elune arcane/void/light magic. Cathedral of Eternal Night, temples of Elune in the 3 cities and the 3 main forests and night elves tapping into the power of the night warrior and the font of Elune.
    c) demon hunting and fel: I want to see Illidari lore develop with the Darnassians. Relationships built - it doesn't have to be a complete friendship, it should be tense, there should be awe, fear and respect, and a sense of danger. Darnassians ordinarily don't want them around, because of how easily fel corrupts , but their young men are fasinated by the resolve and power especially as a source to channel their rage against the burning of Teldrassil, Illidan is hero to many especially now he was proven to not be a betryaer, and his success implies that fiighting fire with fire can be just as successful. It also shoesws night elves don't need to be afraid of handling dangerous magic.


    Azshara's fall really put a hesitation in many of the Darnassians (not the Shen'dralar or Moonguard) about magic, but illidan's success has instead emboldened this. coupled with the return of the likes of Farondis and influences of the Highborne, the night elves now being able to control the Night warrior ritual.


    = a lot of confidence with magic should now have returned to the Darnassians, which should lead to an aggressive control and mastery of arcane, void via the night warrior ritual, fel and nature by those who wield it.




    What Fans Like Tanaria Mis-Understand About Us


    We don't want the night elves to be blood elves. We want the night elves to be fully night elves.


    Forest, city and temples - like in kaldorei lore. The Darnassians are not a full arcane culture like the past.. but that arcane culture does exist amongst some of them, but there is more to it. We want everything to be shown


    when it comes to forests - we want the wonder of the long vigil - the tree men Ancients, the animals, wild life and forestry.
    when it comes to cities however - we wnat the wonder of the pre-sundering civilization : the great cities, the arcane magic wonder in it
    when it comes to temples - we want the splendour and majesty of the temples of Elune




    This is not blood elf - yet the city parts of the blood elf are similar to the night elves yet very different, as is their forest parts - because they are different groups. Some of you think night elves should be totally different.. this is not DnD.. warcraft is better than DnD in how it visualises it's races. Night elves were never just forest elves - although the Darnassians have the forest as a major part. But actually it's the forest and the arcane.


    Elune, the highborne, the civilziations, Well of Eternity and great cities- that's all the dark elf arcane side
    Cenarius, the forest, the emerald dream, druids and hunters and great trees - that's all the nature side.


    We want to see all the aspects of the night elves shown. not just the forest. And we want them shown well.


    Druids must have the wisdom and benevolence of Malfruion, but also the Ferocity of Ashamane and Ursal
    Highborne must have the magical wonder and majesty of the great scholars that pushed the frontier of magic to heights not since since, but also have the battle prowress and legendary skill of the Moonguard (see Lothrius and Aluriel)
    Demon Hunters - must show the relentless tenacity and grasp of power for the purpose of the destruction of evil demons that Illidan shows, with it's strength and resolve.




    We want night elves to come off as night elves were in the lore and in WC3 - dangerous, powerful and having this vast variation that reflects a race that pushed the frontiers of magic = arcane, nature and fel - and were described as titanic.


    Let their chapter of weakness end.


    1. Restore their immortality - via the Well of Eternity again
    2. Empower them further: 3 pronged empowerment:
    a) Elune: night warrior power and font of Elune - star arcane magic, void magic and light magic
    b) Nature: use the power of the world tree and the Emerald dream. While Nordrassil nourishes the world - what is Shaladrassil doing? or we have the night elves use nordarssil and the nightborne using Shaldrassil. But the power of the emerald dream and nature employed
    c) Arcane: use the power of the Well of Eternity -this is the heart and birth and origin of the elves. to ignore it because blood elves have arcane just undermines the entire validity of the story of the elves that originates with the night elves and their arcane origin. Off course this has to be an equally dominant part.. but according to it's own night elven lore. not necessarily blood elven way. The blood elves are modelled after this part for the night elves, but their are differences. The well of eternity can be used to rebuild the great star night cities and show off some arcane wonders that befit the story of Shen'dralar and Farondis - who are night elves that have bene using the arcane for nearly 15,000 years.

  11. #471
    Quote Originally Posted by OwenBurton View Post
    In reality, the Shen'dralar's story development had such interesting potential at first during Cataclysm, many Horde players were also surprised by their emergence, but Blizzard never properly developed them. Some of the arcane reforgers in Silvermoon were also Shen'dralar, I think, in the beta or something. Now, they are nothing but a token element in the night elf story, every appearance of them seem to involve them providing certain skills to the night elves, but then easily being defeated or killed by the Horde, such as in Azshara or the War of the Thorns, both in Ashenvale and then at the Burning of Teldrassil, where lots of them presumably died.

    Look how mainstream blood elf paladins are in Horde society so quickly after they were introduced. Yet night elf mages seem to be in the minority.

    Do you think the Shen'dralar could have had a better relationship with the blood elves then, or had better development at least, had some of them went to Lor'themar rather than Tyrande?

    For that matter, I think the Moon Guard might also make a re-appearance on either side, they would enhance the Shen'dralar and the nightborne story immensely.
    The issue we've got here is that so much development happened prior to the shen'dralar being known to the playerbase and why night elf mages were playable.

    I mean, the expansion after they emerged, the story was focused around Human, High Elf and Blood Elf Magi. Many of Garrosh's Magi were Blood Elves and many Kirin Tor Mages were Humans and High Elves. Plus, Jaina Proudmoore is an elephant in the room. That arcane-ship just goes above the Elves as a whole and it shouldn't be like that, but we are where we are. Jaina fans will always throw these examples at Night Elf/Highborne fans.

    What didn't help was that Jaina shouldn't have placed wards around Darnassus. It should have been the Shen'dralar and never mind just being detected, the Shen'dralar wards should have caused significant damage to the player, dazed them and had the alliance npcs attack them. That is when we'd see proper Shen'dralar vs Sin'dorei, but we didn't because the push was for Humans/High Elves vs Blood Elves.

  12. #472
    The problem with ngiht elves is developing htem.

    All the elements of their lore are there, but everything is in ruins and they are being devastated from all sides.

    1. World trees are in ruins - Teldrassiol, Nordrassil - all used and spent, Shaladrassil full of crruption
    2. Great cities - Zin'Azshari, Eldre'thalas, Darnassus - all in ruins. While Suramar stands, it's not accessible tot hem.
    3. Temples in ruins - Cathedral of Eternal night, Temple of Elune (Darnassus), ToE (Val'sharah), Temple of Falanaar, ToE (Azsuna) - all in ruins


    Yes, night elves have all these things.. but everything is in ruin and they aren't using a fraction of their power

    1. Well of Etenrity - not used
    2. World tree and Emerald dream power - not used
    3. font of Elune - not used really,
    4. Fel power of the Illidari - contained only for the Illidari's purposes


    This is the range they have access too, and blizzard has chosen that really of all the things the night elves have mastered and can use, only the night warrior power has been employed recently
    Everything else is in ruin.

    They have it all, the forests, the cities, the temples - everything is ruin and they're at the point of extinction.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    The issue we've got here is that so much development happened prior to the shen'dralar being known to the playerbase and why night elf mages were playable.
    That's the thing, the night elves have hardly any development. Let us at least acknowledge that since legion they've seen a lot more focus as a race than they did for the entire time between TBC and WoD.

    however much of Legion was not focused on the playerable faction and in fact their role was tiny, other parts of the race saw it though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    I mean, the expansion after they emerged, the story was focused around Human, High Elf and Blood Elf Magi. Many of Garrosh's Magi were Blood Elves and many Kirin Tor Mages were Humans and High Elves. Plus, Jaina Proudmoore is an elephant in the room. That arcane-ship just goes above the Elves as a whole and it shouldn't be like that, but we are where we are. Jaina fans will always throw these examples at Night Elf/Highborne fans.

    What didn't help was that Jaina shouldn't have placed wards around Darnassus. It should have been the Shen'dralar and never mind just being detected, the Shen'dralar wards should have caused significant damage to the player, dazed them and had the alliance npcs attack them. That is when we'd see proper Shen'dralar vs Sin'dorei, but we didn't because the push was for Humans/High Elves vs Blood Elves.
    It's not one unified magi story, each race and sometimes groups of people have different stories or stories that connect.

    I like @ravenmoon's point above, the night elves having arcane doesn't take away from the blood elves, it's their story, and they've had their elements of this from inception. Why blood elf fans should later feel that any night elf arcane involvement makes them irrelevant when it's a core part of their lore and history is beyond me. It's like being jealous of humans for having wizards and a wizard nation.

    Many times when blizzard followed humans in WC2 and 3, they never showed us the magic of the high elves.. they only mentioned it was great. yet back then i didn't assume the high elves were rubbish at it because it was human magi doing a lot of great things.

    I recognised the story was shown from that perspective at the time and my fave elves, the high elves weren't been shown.

    It's exactly the same here, they don't go and show the perspective of all the other groups. Until you become loved enough to be focused on.


    Draenei are a prime example, for all their greatness at the arcane, it's almost always ignored.. no lore development, presentation. no draenei doing great arcane acts etiher.. they're certainly capable.


    Does the lack of this show means draenei aren't good there? No, because the lore already tells us they are great.

    - - - Updated - - -

    there is less of an excuse with ngiht elves, because while the shen'dralar have not been shown.. the arcan e power has been displayed properly in Farondis, the Nightborne, the Moonguard - and the notoriety of elves such as Illidan and Azshara.

  13. #473
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    I like @ravenmoon's point above, the night elves having arcane doesn't take away from the blood elves, it's their story, and they've had their elements of this from inception. Why blood elf fans should later feel that any night elf arcane involvement makes them irrelevant when it's a core part of their lore and history is beyond me. It's like being jealous of humans for having wizards and a wizard nation.
    I've always found it to be night elf fans, especially since Legion, have been wanting more and more from the Horde elves. To me, that's more jealousy that I've seen.
    On the EU forums, many Horde fans have said to these night elf/highborne fans that they are envious of something that they don't have, on the Alliance. I mean, I laughed when I saw night elf fans begging for sympathy, yet wanting to steal core elements from the Horde Elves and stating that the Blood Elves and Nightborne should be in the position that the Night Elves are in now. Completely homeless with no lore development.

    That is Blizzard's problem.

    This whole "Blood Elf fans vs Night Elf fans" truly started from the night elf fans.
    Blood Elf fans, in the main, have been quite happy - we never asked for BfA.
    Last edited by Tanaria; 2021-12-04 at 11:41 AM.

  14. #474
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    I've always found it to be night elf fans, especially since Legion, have been wanting more and more from the Horde elves.
    Their right there. That's the problem with your view.

    You think "it" arcane belongs to the horde elves, and you are so consumed by thinking they want your stuff, you don't realise what they've wanted is their stuff.

    In Legion, Suramar was not horde, and not horde elves, pre-TBC the blood elves weren't horde either. Night elf fans have always wanted a pristine kaldorei city, from WC3 when it was mentioned and the WotA trilogy took you to Suramar and Zin'Azshari descriptively - it has nothing to dowith whether some high elves go horde or some night elves go horde.

    They have wanted all the aspects of the night elf lore to be visible on their side. It's a good thing that Illidari night elves are playble as night elves or they'd have wanted the same thing for them too. It's not wanting what the horde elves have.. it's wanting their o wn stuff.

    You can't blame nighte lf fans for wanting Suramar, ti's the origin city of all their heores and their main faction, it is also the only pristine night elf city in the game, and you mean it's not even available to the main night elf group?

    What about powerful arcane wielding night elves? ofc, the reason why playable highborne in cata was such a huge thing was becasue it was greatly desired. not every night elf fan desired it, some actually didn't want it at all, wanting only the female night elf sentinel/priestess to have all the attention, some only wanted the druids, others only the highborne, some like me and Raven, wanted all the parts of the night elves.

    It's silly to think that humans can have a mage nation, a priest nation, a warrior nation and osme nations that have a combination of all of those, but yet night elves must only be one thing....


    Those tlike youwho think they want the horde elves stuff actually think elf arcane arts belong to the horde elf - which is stupid, before they were blood elves they were high elves, and high elves are with the alliance. Before they were nightborne, they were night elves and night elves are with the alliance. Highborne night elves, Illidari night elves (before they opened up to the horde), you have one bunch of fans wanting the expression of their race in all the facets, and then you stepping in and saying sorry, no, arcane belongs to the hrode because i like it and i'm on the horde.

    That is just no sense at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    To me, that's more jealousy that I've seen.
    I'm not sure it's jealousy when you take something of one race and give ito the enemy faction, and then destroy the roiginal race even further making them look like shit. I dont' think jelaousy is the right word to use. If you can't udnerstand the anger of fans then you are being hypocritical.

    The mere suggestion ravenmoon made of removing the high elven and night elven aspects from the blood elves and Nightborne and establishing them on the alliance to revive the alliance got you very angry because it was taking away parts of those two races and removing them to the other faction.

    And yet you don't understand how night elf fans feel to see the pristine kaldorei city and magic users they've ben waiting to be shown strong on their side to instead be shown only on the enemy faction and their side further destroyed.... seriously Tanaria.. seriously?

    Can you please for once look at things from others' point of view -.. if you did, you would understand and you would supoprt.

    you would not feel night elves getting their Highborne been visible or their cities or being strong as a problem becuase it's in their lore.. the fact that you don't see this just places you as another greedy fan that wants his side to have everything, he likes AND in addition doesn't want the other side to have anything.

    I'm fine with you wanting everything or the best of the things you like for your side, it's the fact that you oppose the other side getting the things that are alaso theirs in a powerful way too that is hypocritical and greedy. This is the issue.



    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    On the EU forums, many Horde fans have said to these night elf/highborne fans that they are envious of something that they don't have, on the Alliance.
    You mean horde fans like you. You are perpetuating this misconception.

    You are so divided and viewing your fellow humans who play alliance as the enemy and wanting all the nice things of races that weren't originally part fo the horde for your faction while wanting them to have nothing - that you actually fail to see why they want it. You think they covet what you have, but fail to see the point they have in that their race and their faction have these aspects too and had them first and they want to see them looking good and well on their faction, rathher than only see the humans develop.

    You are being consumed by faction rivalry in a fantasy game, you're failing to understand what your fellow humans and wow lovers want..just because they're the fictional enemy -... . stop seeing them as that.. and try to understand why they want what they want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    I mean, I laughed when I saw night elf fans begging for sympathy, yet wanting to steal core elements from the Horde Elves and stating that the Blood Elves and Nightborne should be in the position that the Night Elves are in now. Completely homeless with no lore development.
    Look at your language... "laughed" at someone begging for sympathy .. and "steal the core elements from the horde elves".. sheesh so because horde elves have this shown, it can't be available or visible on the alliance elves.. even though the alliance elves bear the origin and bigger picture of thesee facets embracing more..

    because horde elves have it, the alliance elves mustn't , evne though the lore has the alliance elves having all the same qualities and able to gain cities and forests.

    So alliance elves mustn't have forests because horde elves have nice ones. And they mustn't have elven cities either, becuase tha'ts what the horde elves really have.

    oh, and they shouldn't have arcane magic either, beucase the horde leves have a lot of that.. might as well add light magic too because the horde elves have that. oh and fel magic - the horde elves have that both with warlocks and illidari, so the alliance elves mustn' have that.



    You see it's great on the horde so let's have the alliance elves from which this comes from not have any, might as well remove it from the humans too and draenei, and dwarves, because it's rightful place is on the horde...sigh

    I remember when arcane magic was an alliance thing only, just because the horde has it now in the elves that came from the alliance, means hte elves that are on the alliance who also have it should some how not have it visible or seen because you feel it's tealing their core


    /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes /rolleyes

    That is Blizzard's problem.

    /rolleyes

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    This whole "Blood Elf fans vs Night Elf fans" truly started from the night elf fans.
    Blood Elf fans, in the main, have been quite happy - we never asked for BfA.
    You are basically angry at the aliance fans for basically wanting exactly what was done to their elf groups. They took what was on the alliance and with the alliance and gave it to the horde.

    And now, alliance fans asking for the heritage and civilization for the night elves to be shown or the mastery of moonguard/highborne arcane masters or high elf void elves to be shown now on their faction is suddenly stealing from the horde ? Somebody forgot how the horde got it in the first place. It's not stealing if it's already yours. Besides most alliance fans aren't asking for the horde to lose what they have either, so it isn't stealing in that sense either.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    This whole "Blood Elf fans vs Night Elf fans" truly started from the night elf fans.
    Blood elf fans, of which YOU are the chief culprit on both the official forums and here, constantly go on alliance fan topics regarding elves and literally say inflammatory stuff like above. You.

    You go on tell ing htem , they shouldn't have that, they have forests and nature magic, but arcane and city belongs to us - what nonsense. You tell them t hey basically cana't want what they want.. in fact they shouldn't even desire it, because you have it?

    Knowing full well that stuff comes from them. How and why would you dictate what someone should desire? THey don't come onto blood elf topics.. you guys constnatly attacking them in some warped perception that you're defending the side..when all you are doing is stoking up real hatred for others over a video game and trying to keep development on another side down.

    Are you that insecure of what you have? You already had SIlvermoon, why should someone suggesting it goes to the alliance threaten you so much or that high elves be playable or that void elves get a city.

    you already have Suramar, are alliance fans frustrated and angry that something they desired and had been waiting for for so long, finally came, but was given to the horde.. are they not allowed to be angry about that? You have the nightborne, it's not going back, can they not be frustrated - you would be. i know you would be because the mere suggestion of the opposite hapepning has you and your cohorts in arms .. what woudl you do if it actually happened.... yet you have 0 empthathy to see how your fellow human beings feel ...

    And blizzard wonders why no one plays the alliance. Becuase they're either listening to hore players like you or they are horde players like you.

  15. #475
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    snip
    Nightborne are an off shoot of night elves, based on night elves -- ofc the night elves are going to have all the kaldorei aspects of the Nightborne as well as other aspects the Nightborne do not have, because the Nightborne are the much smaller community. Night elves having kaldorei stuff is not stealing from the horde elves anymore than Highmountain or Lightforged having stuff means that DRaenei and Tauren who arleady had them are now stealing this from the high mountain and tauren.


    It's the same with void elves and blood elves.




    Why would kaldorei having powerful Highborne/Moonguard magi, Moonguard and a pristine kaldorei civilization city like Zin'Azshari, Nar'thalas or Eldre'thalas somehow be impinging on horde elves? These are all part of the night elf lore.. that Nightborne come from just one side of the night elf coin, doesn't mean night elves shouldn't have it. I don't understand that way of thinking.

  16. #476
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    SNIP
    Of course I have 0 empathy for those who want the things I like to be diminished.

    Are you so insecure about Alliance not having Silvermoon or Suramar?
    I mean, the obsession over these two locations, when night elf and high/void elf fans have already suggested an updated Hyjal and maybe a portal connecting to and expanding the Allerian Stronghold, so the Alliance basically has big calls for Shattrath.

    I fail to see how your being disadvantaged.
    EDIT: And regarding those suggestions:
    So what if you don't have Suramar. Blizzard is already building up the idea of moving the Night Elves to Hyjal. What's wrong with that place?

    and build the Void Elves around Duskwood? Or maybe, Terrokkar forest where they meet with the Allerian Stronghold High Elves.

    Dude, calm down. Maybe take a break from the lore or the forums. I think your getting a little too invested in this. (Don't call me out for it, when you do the same.)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Nightborne are an off shoot of night elves, based on night elves -- ofc the night elves are going to have all the kaldorei aspects of the Nightborne as well as other aspects the Nightborne do not have, because the Nightborne are the much smaller community. Night elves having kaldorei stuff is not stealing from the horde elves anymore than Highmountain or Lightforged having stuff means that DRaenei and Tauren who arleady had them are now stealing this from the high mountain and tauren.


    It's the same with void elves and blood elves.




    Why would kaldorei having powerful Highborne/Moonguard magi, Moonguard and a pristine kaldorei civilization city like Zin'Azshari, Nar'thalas or Eldre'thalas somehow be impinging on horde elves? These are all part of the night elf lore.. that Nightborne come from just one side of the night elf coin, doesn't mean night elves shouldn't have it. I don't understand that way of thinking.
    Night Elves can have it.
    Blizzard rebuilds you Eldre'Thalas.

    Nightborne remain in Suramar
    Sin'dorei remain in Quel'Thalas.

    I'm happy, your happy - everyone's happy.
    Last edited by Tanaria; 2021-12-04 at 03:02 PM.

  17. #477
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post

    Night Elves can have it.
    Blizzard rebuilds you Eldre'Thalas.

    Nightborne remain in Suramar
    Sin'dorei remain in Quel'Thalas.

    I'm happy, your happy - everyone's happy.
    We don't determine what comes. I'm just saying it's unrealistic to presume elven assets are exclusive property of horde elves. Horde elves don't own anything. Nor do alliance.. there might not even be a horde and alliance next expansion.

    At the end of the day, night elf fans just want to see more night elven stuff, honestly they don't care that much what the horde has... but if blizzard keep doing cool night elven stuff and putting it on the horde, if it's nice don't be surprised if the night elf fans want it.

    Best way to prevent things like that is also do cool things for the alliance. And I tell you the alliance needs it. The reason the faction is so unpopular is because they always send the stuff alliance fans like to the horde.

    But it doesn't mean anything much. it might be a kick. But at the end of the day the high elves are in the game as blood elves and the kaldorei civilization is in game too - via the Farondis, Moonguard, Nightborne and Suramar... so big deal

  18. #478
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    We don't determine what comes. I'm just saying it's unrealistic to presume elven assets are exclusive property of horde elves. Horde elves don't own anything. Nor do alliance.. there might not even be a horde and alliance next expansion.

    At the end of the day, night elf fans just want to see more night elven stuff, honestly they don't care that much what the horde has... but if blizzard keep doing cool night elven stuff and putting it on the horde, if it's nice don't be surprised if the night elf fans want it.

    Best way to prevent things like that is also do cool things for the alliance. And I tell you the alliance needs it. The reason the faction is so unpopular is because they always send the stuff alliance fans like to the horde.

    But it doesn't mean anything much. it might be a kick. But at the end of the day the high elves are in the game as blood elves and the kaldorei civilization is in game too - via the Farondis, Moonguard, Nightborne and Suramar... so big deal
    Cool things for the Alliance can happen at the same time as cool things for the Horde.

    Night Elves creating a huge city for Alliance players on Hyjal can happen at the same time as Horde players getting their long awaited Quel'Thalas update.

    I wouldn't count on Void Elves or Nightborne getting anything though.

  19. #479
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    Of course I have 0 empathy for those who want the things I like to be diminished.

    Are you so insecure about Alliance not having Silvermoon or Suramar?
    I mean, the obsession over these two locations, when night elf and high/void elf fans have already suggested an updated Hyjal and maybe a portal connecting to and expanding the Allerian Stronghold, so the Alliance basically has big calls for Shattrath.

    I fail to see how your being disadvantaged.
    EDIT: And regarding those suggestions:
    So what if you don't have Suramar. Blizzard is already building up the idea of moving the Night Elves to Hyjal. What's wrong with that place?

    and build the Void Elves around Duskwood? Or maybe, Terrokkar forest where they meet with the Allerian Stronghold High Elves.

    Dude, calm down. Maybe take a break from the lore or the forums. I think your getting a little too invested in this. (Don't call me out for it, when you do the same.)
    Quite the opposite, can you not tell?

    You are the one talking about stealing and taking from or wanting what someone else has - I'm trying to explain to you what things look like from others' perspective for starters, and how it's not related to that at all.

    Stuff doesn't belong to the horde elves - that's a self centred illusion, and partisan rivalry that makes no sense. Then using that as a justification to why you oppose this and that makes my jaw drop and seriously think..."dude"!!!! Can you just look up or look at the bigger picture.

    Blood elves, void elves, high elves, are just section of the same racial group.

    Night elves, Nightborne, Highborne, Moonguard, NElf Illidari, druids, priests - they're just sections of the same racial group

    They've lumped one group in the horde, keeping the original on the alliance. There is nothing that blood elves or Nightborne have that belongs to the horde. it belongs to the race.. their are high elves and void elves that also have claim to all that stuff and have similar capability. ..and it's exactly the same for night elves and Nightborne.


    I'm just amazed by your conclusions.
    Last edited by Mace; 2021-12-04 at 07:10 PM.

  20. #480
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    They've lumped one group in the horde, keeping the original on the allinace. There is nothing that blood elves or nightborne have that belongs to the horde.
    Likewise, their is nothing that void elves and night elves have that are Alliance.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Quite hte opposite, can you not tell?

    You are the one talking about stealing and taking from or wanting what someone else has - I'm trying to explain to you what things look like from others' perspective forr starters, and how it's not related to that at all.
    Well, lets end talk surrounding Suramar and Silvermoon.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    their are high elves and void elves that also have claim to all that stuff and have similar capability. ..and it's exactly the same for night elves and Nightborne.

    I'm just amazed by your conclusions.
    High Elves aren't playable.
    Void Elves are doing their own thing.
    Night Elves are going to Hyjal.

    Don't see the issue.

    EDIT: Indeed, the only issue we've got is no mention of an updated Quel'Thalas, for Horde/Blood Elf players.
    Last edited by Tanaria; 2021-12-04 at 07:15 PM.

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