The Night Elves/borne discussion thread

[Rhlor]

Well I think my support for highborne and like of it has made people think that is what I want, despite telling them plainly it isn't, but I understnad how constantly coming to the defense or reminding people of its existence and relevance can make it seem so - I saw that happen in Tanaria and realised I was pretty much doing similar but for night elven arcane matters, and it was making me appear like that was all I cared about.

I think people prefer a simpler focus, they don't seem to be able to handle that night elves can do different things - they really don't. So if the Darnassians become only about druidism and Elune in the forest - they can get that. Then the Illidari can continue to be all about demons whether Night elf dominated/led or shared with blood elves, and Highborne can become about Nightborne and kaldorei civilization - giving a clear identity and association.

It's not that all night elves are only about the Darnassians, it's just about where you see them play a strong and visible role elsewhere. So when you think of the Illidari you think of demon night elves. When you think of the Nightborne you think of the kaldorei empire/civilization and the Highborne.

I think this is what wow is. You see the other identities of races wrapped up in strong factional identity groups which aren't necessarily part of the main race's identity, but can be just as strong. So the faction carries the identity.

Darnassians is a faction
Illidari is a faction
Nightborne is a faction (which he proposes Highborne night elves play a major role in - remember how high elves played a major role in the blood elf story although it was as enemies)
Ebon Blade is a faction - although night elves don't have a strong presences there.
Cenarion Circle is a faction.


We identify a race based on the faction, if the race has a strong identity in a faction, we perceive that version of the race (whether it's half demon, or differently themed) with respect to when we think of that faction. So we only think of Illidari night elves when we think of the Illidari faction, not when we think of the Night elves.

Now Highborne doesn't have a strong faction identity of it's own visually in game. It does in lore, but you'd have to be familiar with the lore, and this is why I have had arguments with a lot of people, because the visual identity isn't there as a faction - however the Nightborne do, because of their stunning role and central focus in the first half of Legion, so it is a Highborne faction everyone knows of compared to the night elf Highborne who are a monumental faction but only in the lore.

I'm going to say what I said at the time, that the nightborne had to be a sub race of the night elves or a neutral race, but a group of alliance players from the first time we saw them wanted the nightborne to be of the horde and that the blood elf model was playable in the alliance. and if I remember correctly you were one of them

[Tanaria]

Your proposal could be interesting no doubt, it could provide some blood elf/nightborne disagreement/conflict (not a major one, just a nuanced one. With some blood elves fully on board, while others playing a lorash/Maiev type role, wanting to perpetuate hate and feel they need to protect the horde by destroying the efforts of corporation etc..

I don't believe this would happen on the Sin'dorei side.

The Sin'dorei don't hate all night elves, despite what happened in Suramar - but let's remember the Moon Guard and the Sin'dorei Mages who spoke on friendly terms towards them. Why? Because the Moon Guard Magi never exiled their ancestors and then, 10 millennia later, allow the Highborne to return, but still hold resentment towards them. It's Tyrande's people and the former city state of Darnassus that made the Blood Elves angry with the Night Elves. Plus, the spying invasion of Quel'Thalas during TBC would have soured relations even more.
But the fact that the Blood Elves talk of and invite the Moon Guard to Silvermoon tells us that it's only hate towards the Elves that exiled their ancestors. Hell, the Blood Elven Ranger General holds no contempt towards the night elf huntress, Emmerall Shadewarden as she worked with the High Elves, alongside Talanas Windrunner, during the first of the Amani wars.

[yana]

I know talking about semantics is more fun, but if your NA and can post Id apreciate some support for this thread asking to have both types of night warrior eyes, increasing the costumization and the choices available for everyone <3 !


https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...-change/630678

[Ardenaso]

copying this from the other thread here

How did Draka know about Night Elves, let alone Aszhara? As far as I know, Night Elves land on Ardenweald by default so they wouldn't be seeing any; and Vashj didn't get the druidic connections like every post-Sundering Night Elf

Mograine too, unless they retcon it into that the Human Paladin we save in Dalaran in WC3 would be him

[Beloren]

I don't believe this would happen on the Sin'dorei side.

The Sin'dorei don't hate all night elves, despite what happened in Suramar - but let's remember the Moon Guard and the Sin'dorei Mages who spoke on friendly terms towards them. Why? Because the Moon Guard Magi never exiled their ancestors and then, 10 millennia later, allow the Highborne to return, but still hold resentment towards them. It's Tyrande's people and the former city state of Darnassus that made the Blood Elves angry with the Night Elves. Plus, the spying invasion of Quel'Thalas during TBC would have soured relations even more.
But the fact that the Blood Elves talk of and invite the Moon Guard to Silvermoon tells us that it's only hate towards the Elves that exiled their ancestors. Hell, the Blood Elven Ranger General holds no contempt towards the night elf huntress, Emmerall Shadewarden as she worked with the High Elves, alongside Talanas Windrunner, during the first of the Amani wars.

I picked up on that too, the blood elves dont have much issue with Illidari night elves or Highborne night elves, Moon Guard or Nightborne, as none of these exiled them, werent the Highborne training blood elves as reformers a while ago?

It just seems to be the Darnassians that they are troubled with

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copying this from the other thread here

I have no idea. Presumably Draka would hear accounts of them from others in Maldraxxus

[Ardenaso]

I know talking about semantics is more fun, but if your NA and can post Id apreciate some support for this thread asking to have both types of night warrior eyes, increasing the costumization and the choices available for everyone <3 !


https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...-change/630678

not subbed atm, best I can do is like

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I have no idea. Presumably Draka would hear accounts of them from others in Maldraxxus

perhaps Night Elves who didn't do the Long Vigil like Mordent and the Shen'dralar and some Nightborne and some Thalassians?

[matrix123mko]

Oh, thought you didn't like night elf civilization and arcane side and wanted it removed or at least un-noticeable/minimised in what you saw of the Darnassian alliance night elves.

I may be wrong, but judging from what I read in other topics, there seems to be a few alliance players who want the main night elf faction on their side to be primtive and feral like, not magical or elven - and a lot of the horde elven playerbase want this as well.

By making the Nightborne the driving force of the kaldorei civilization and arcane side - which is what they were introduced as, it makes sense that that side of the night elves , which is still around and obviously seriously liked by a good portion of the alliance night elf fans, have an avenue it can express and grow with a race that was created entirely based on it- i.e. the nightborne - rather than excluding them or removing them from the horde they're on.

Use them, and make them the main focus of that side of the night elves they represent, with those from the night elf race in that vein quite tied into that story line as co-stars. Afterall it's a major side of the night elves, but one that doesn't interfere with the forest vibe the Darnassians are free to carry out without having to mix with that side of the night elves some people don't really want their "vibe" polluted.

I've just listened to the arguments, the Mace/Ravenmoon pair make valid points, but so do the rest of us. What the night elves are overall vs what we see them in game. In game we only see a portion of their totatliy, it's the forest vibe side, b many fans like that and perceive the playable night elf group as that. While the highborne /arcane lovers are correct in their lore, they wish an expansion on the role of the night elves that isn't welcome by all, especially the horde fans now the nightborne fill that role.

Yet it would be stupid to ignore or remove an aspect that has a hardcore fan base when their is room to accomodate it properly, ivsually in-game via the Nightborne and the broken isles.

If the void/high elves and blood elves can have two major streams of stories and progression for Thalassian elves, it stands to reason that Darnassians and Shalassians can spear head to major themes for night elf lore, one Kaldorei pre-sundering/civilziation based, and one Long vigil/Wc3 druidic nature based.

It's already in game, both fans get what they want, you get an interesting story and developments and no vibe is really effected. No fear of Darnassians turning into "blood elves or Nightborne", they maintain their WC3 vibe, whereas the rest of the development on the other sides of the kaldorei continue with the highborne and nightborne on the broken isles having their own sub-community nation.


At least that's the concept for proceeding I believe @Tanaria, @Alanar, @MyWholeLifeIsThunder and even @ravenmoon, @Mace , @Astranea , @Rhlor @Sharnie786 , @Ardenaso @matrix123mko even @Moonrage and @Powerogue and @Tuor I believe should all agree.

I agree. Nightborne get arcane story and Darnassians get druidic story. Just as Blizzard designed it.

[ravenmoon]

I agree. Nightborne get arcane story and Darnassians get druidic story. Just as Blizzard designed it.

Read the fine print. He is saying Darnassians get forest story, Highborne night elves and Nightborne share an arcane direction. He isn't saying night elves only get a druidic stor.

In fact he hinted at #Nightborne getting some druidic influence to, but balanced druid based and involving an expansion of the Valewalker theme presumably based on Farodin and the val'sharha druid interacions.

He is basically suggesting that the borken isles and aklimdor operate as two separate night elf entities, with the broken isle night elves centred around and driven by the Nightborne and Highborne night elves as a more open , more world involved group based on hem seeking to unite Elven kind and restore the prosperity and proflieration of pre-sundering kaldorei civilization's golden era (presumably the pre-addiction era Farondis characterises)

You obviously didn't read it carefully buddy, I mean, I wouldn't mind something like this, I remember Mace proposed something similar a few years ago, though in his proposal it was night elf driven, not nighborne, and the nightborne were allied with the night elves - back then i preferred them to fight and the night elves written to win, but i would accept this as a 2nd or 3rd alternative if it continues that story on.

I just think it is largely predicated on pleasing everyone, and it doesn't have to, i don't see why the Daranssians have to essentially lose an integrated kaldorei future because horde fans prefer them to be wild and primitive like so they can have the arcane nuance exclusively.

[Beloren]

Read the fine print. He is saying Darnassians get forest story, Highborne night elves and Nightborne share an arcane direction. He isn't saying night elves only get a druidic stor.

In fact he hinted at #Nightborne getting some druidic influence to, but balanced druid based and involving an expansion of the Valewalker theme presumably based on Farodin and the val'sharha druid interacions.

He is basically suggesting that the borken isles and aklimdor operate as two separate night elf entities, with the broken isle night elves centred around and driven by the Nightborne and Highborne night elves as a more open , more world involved group based on hem seeking to unite Elven kind and restore the prosperity and proflieration of pre-sundering kaldorei civilization's golden era (presumably the pre-addiction era Farondis characterises)

You obviously didn't read it carefully buddy, I mean, I wouldn't mind something like this, I remember Mace proposed something similar a few years ago, though in his proposal it was night elf driven, not nighborne, and the nightborne were allied with the night elves - back then i preferred them to fight and the night elves written to win, but i would accept this as a 2nd or 3rd alternative if it continues that story on.

Pretty much this, I wasn't necessarily thinking of the Farondis but it's a good idea, they are very much like the more noble side of the nightborne, given they're the same group of nigh elves - Tahlsysra shows that original kaldorei highborne type nobility Farondis displays also, i ameks sense hey'd not only be working together, but that's the grade of night elf, the model of highborne used to characterise them - afterall they're the ones working for unity and to guide their allies away from killing each other.

I just think it is largely predicated on pleasing everyone, and it doesn't have to, i don't see why the Daranssians have to essentially lose an integrated kaldorei future because horde fans prefer them to be wild and primitive like so they can have the arcane nuance exclusively.

Enough with this already, not all horde fans are like that, you're over reacting, my proposal has night elven highborne very much involved in Nightborne society,, Suramar and affairs arcane, and your suggestion is counter intuitive because Nightborne are akldorei empire night elven sub-race. Promoting them is promoing kaldorei arcane stuff, it's just sitting under the horde banner with a different silhouette but it is still night evlen, and the highbonre involvemen would make that more apparent.

There is no reason for you not to like i except for the fact i's horde driven. Face it, the Nightborne are on the horde, that's not changing, but they're also quite night elven based too, that's their race basis, and can have a lo of night elf interaction and development on the broken isles that gives you a lot of night elf arcane lore and development seeing more of that stuff without breaking anything.

As Tanaria pointed out, even blood elves don't have a problem with the broken isle night elf factions like the Moonguard, the Farondis, the Val'sharah lot - they weren't involved with their exile, Malfurion hadn't visited Val'sharh since he early days just after the sundering it literally says, which means that night elf community had not been involved with all the dcisions of the exiles 3000 years later. With the Valewalkers, the Farondis and the Moon Guard nearby tool onewould imagine that these communities wer ea bit more open than the one that produces the darnassians.

They are perfect to start a different alternate kaldorei approach than the more aggressive, feral one that the Darnassians are been taken down.

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copying this from the other thread here

I thought you were a big high elf and highborne fan - when did you become an orc fan

[Sharnie786]

With the recent customisation updates for SL we're destined to be forest elves with some worshipping Elune.

There is no real Highbourne option and although they've said customisation is an ongoing thing i don't think they will ever explore that aspect., just more hobo looks. The jewellery and regal aspects of Night Elves will all be given to the Horde with Belfs and Nightbourne. We get the messy Elves with Velfs and Nelfs.

[Ardenaso]

I thought you were a big high elf and highborne fan - when did you become an orc fan

meh; I only wanted a "token" representation like sure, Highborne stuffs and all, but as I said before I prefer the main theme of Night Elves to be the forests and moon temples with the "arcane" stuff to be like 2%; for example the Eldre'thalas is nice and dandy but best keep it there, and perhaps 1-3 Highborne themed houses and stuffs in Hyjal

I stopped being a hefa extremist and so I drew the line in High Elf stuff like fair skin and blue eyes - but no blonde hair nor Paladin; I think that's too much now

orc fan? elaborate further

the thing I really want in WoW is in my profile pic

[Beloren]

meh; I only wanted a "token" representation like sure, Highborne stuffs and all, but as I said before I prefer the main theme of Night Elves to be the forests and moon temples with the "arcane" stuff to be like 2%; for example the Eldre'thalas is nice and dandy but best keep it there, and perhaps 1-3 Highborne themed houses and stuffs in Hyjal

I stopped being a hefa extremist and so I drew the line in High Elf stuff like fair skin and blue eyes - but no blonde hair nor Paladin; I think that's too much now

orc fan? elaborate further

the thing I really want in WoW is in my profile pic

Can't make out what your profile pic is, seems like a flag. I mention Lightbound orcs cos it's in your signature.

The night elves seem confusing, how can you want forest and moon temples? Moon temples seem more a part of civilization than the wild forest druidic life. Ravenmoon and co thought blizzards vision for night elves was bigger than it turned out to be. That's their main mistake. They based their projection on the original works, lore and novels, but failed to adapt their vision when blizzard took the Nightborne horde. This effectively gave that arcane civilization night elf stuff to the other faction.

Our error was earlier not interpreting it as night elven, that's where we made the mistake, it is night elven, but that side is on the horde, so it no longer makes much sense to carry on the night elves with that aspect in tow, unless you had a Zandalari type vision for the night elves, which I think they did at first, but they no longer. They are happy with the nigh elves being just forest elves. Or rather I should clarify, they are happy with the Darnassians being just forest elves.

Night elves in other capacities continue to exist, but not really involved with the Darnassians. The Illidari night elves are part of the Illidari faction, which while night elf in origin isn't exclusively night elven. IT makes sense that the Highborne night elves be much more involved with the Nightborne and get developed via their story, this will help both the Nightborne and the HIghborne lovers - they are essentially the same group, and if they're not going to develop them on the night elf side because of the existence of the Nightborne, then I think their fans would be pleased to be constructively involved with the Nightborne even if fighting on the alliance.

I think it warrants using a different approach for Nightborne/Highborne interactions than the antagonistic one used for high/blood elf. Don't just clone it, change it. Night kind should be able to see beyond their differences at 10,000 years + of age, surely, and seem to have bigger concerns like the survival of their kind as well as a greater bond of attraction and similarity in theirlove for magic and knowledge as well as re-establishing a phenomenal society to lead the world peacefully by example. That can be their thing in contrast to the Kalimdor Darnassians and a welcome exception to the constant struggle. WE can get enough elven conflict via high elf vs blood elf, and Darnassians going off on their own tangent. The Highborne and Nightborne along with the broken isles NIght elves are perfect to use for this new elven experiment.

[Ardenaso]

Can't make out what your profile pic is, seems like a flag. I mention Lightbound orcs cos it's in your signature.

The night elves seem confusing, how can you want forest and moon temples?

not the "arcane" moon temple but the Elune moon temples, it's also a staple part of the forest elves via Priestesses of the Moon and even the Watchers themselves

[Beloren]

With the recent customisation updates for SL we're destined to be forest elves with some worshipping Elune.

There is no real Highbourne option and although they've said customisation is an ongoing thing i don't think they will ever explore that aspect., just more hobo looks. The jewellery and regal aspects of Night Elves will all be given to the Horde with Belfs and Nightbourne. We get the messy Elves with Velfs and Nelfs.

You can wait to see what they do with the Nightborne, , they could give them some cool options that may attract you and possibly give night elves some additional Highborne options from the Nightborne cos i'm sure the nightborne will be getting some options from the night elves.

I'm also thinking if they do develop a Highborne/Nightborne positive working relationship, it will actually please night elf highborne fans like you, and you'd also warm up to Nightborne. If a serious measure of cross faction elf corporation should exist, the Highborne and Nightborne are the best suited sources of these. It fits their profile and they don't really have a direction currently, they do need a purpose and direction of their own and this is the sort they'd like. Nightborne can't forever only exist to prop up blood elves, they must also have their own independent racial mission/function. A vision for themselves not just for the horde or for the blood elves. And uniting elven kind and restoring the original elven civilisation seems to be the sort of thing the Highborne types would want.

I mean if you personally believe you are the best in the world, but your caste/group has lost much of it's respect and high standing in the eyes of the world's races, you're going to have high motivation to show and prove your calibre - you'd be motivated to do great and impossible feats by their standards. Things like uniting the elves, rebuilding works of great magical beauty and wonder. and you'd have great allies in the Shen'dralar revived Highborne caste who'd also be quite keen on those goals and welcome working in a night elven city like Suramar, and rebuilding both the ruins and the morale of their people.

[Ardenaso]

Can't make out what your profile pic is, seems like a flag.

that's the flag of Alterac, one of the original human nations, with the Horde flaglet below

[Beloren]

not the "arcane" moon temple but the Elune moon temples, it's also a staple part of the forest elves via Priestesses of the Moon and even the Watchers themselves

I didn't realise there was a difference. I think you're conceptualising them wrongly.

Creating a separation where one doesn't exists. The temples are built in teh arcane pre-sundering era, arcane and ELune are not mutually exclusively, the order developed around the arcane, and it likely pioneered it. It just doesn't use it the way magecraft does, nor forr the purposes magecraft does, but I observe most of it's offensive spells are arcane based, and it discovered Elune via the arcane well.

The temples were built as part of the cities and civilization, in a time when the preisthood was not opposed to arcane casting nor was it's use banned. This ban happens in a different era, an era where the use of arcane brings back the Legion. In this era there are no temples built or structures, cos there is no arcane or civilization. When that era ends, these things return, but it's the ancient pre-sundering versions. I fail to see how an "arcane" moon temple is different from an Elune moon temple.

There is a difference between a Cathedral and a temple and there are at least 3 types of temple buildings we see.. but I have not seen an arcane and moon distinction anywhere.


Moon Priestesses are moon priestesses, their sentinels and hunters are sentinels and hunters, not casters - they've operated in forest settings for 10,000 years in that capcity, but they are still led by caster magic wielding priestesses. Doesn't the sisterhood still lead the Order of Elune? And they are all Moon Priestesses, casters.

[Tuor]

I may be wrong, but judging from what I read in other topics, there seems to be a few alliance players who want the main night elf faction on their side to be primtive and feral like

Since when are NElfs primitive and Feral? They are the same group that builded Darnassus.

not magical or elven

Have nothing against magic, i even defended Highborne mages when they reunited with NElfs. My problem with magic when some people defend that NElfs should resume entirely around magic.

Since when is magic a requirement to be considered Elven?

[Beloren]

Since when are NElfs primitive and Feral? They are the same group that builded Darnassus.


Have nothing against magic, i even defended Highborne mages when they reunited with NElfs. My problem with magic when some people defend that NElfs should resume entirely around magic.

Since when is magic a requirement to be considered Elven?

It's a basic constitution of wow elves. Night elves are born from magic, and all elves use it, there is no elven group without magic of some sort as their primary focus.

Now not all elven factions have the arcane play a large role (some people don't seem to realise or want), that's fine, but they all have magic inherent to them or a part of them whether they use it or not, and whether it's of the nature variety, arcane variety, divine variety, fel variety or shadow/void variety. And all elven races have factions notorious for wielding every one of those categories to an insane level.

But even you would agree, the arcane magic focus should be moved away from the Darnassians, and the night elves that have it should be tied in more with the horde night elves i.e. the Nightborne - it makes better story sense and cohesion. This allows the Darnassians to be mainly forest ferals without you losing your night elf mage or Highborne - they just role with another group and have a different focus so your wild, forest primitive feral feel remains the focus of the Darnassian.

It allows better story focus, and should bring the Nightborne out more as a prominent and relevant night elven race of their own. As they are the largest arcane night elf group and have the resources. It gives Nightborne a major focus and relevnace and it does the same to night elf Highborne without taking away from WC3 favourite Darnasisans.

[yana]

not subbed atm, best I can do is like

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perhaps Night Elves who didn't do the Long Vigil like Mordent and the Shen'dralar and some Nightborne and some Thalassians?

thank you tho! I sincerally hope they listen to this tiny but impactfull request

[Sharnie786]

You can wait to see what they do with the Nightborne, , they could give them some cool options that may attract you and possibly give night elves some additional Highborne options from the Nightborne cos i'm sure the nightborne will be getting some options from the night elves.

I'm also thinking if they do develop a Highborne/Nightborne positive working relationship, it will actually please night elf highborne fans like you, and you'd also warm up to Nightborne. If a serious measure of cross faction elf corporation should exist, the Highborne and Nightborne are the best suited sources of these. It fits their profile and they don't really have a direction currently, they do need a purpose and direction of their own and this is the sort they'd like. Nightborne can't forever only exist to prop up blood elves, they must also have their own independent racial mission/function. A vision for themselves not just for the horde or for the blood elves. And uniting elven kind and restoring the original elven civilisation seems to be the sort of thing the Highborne types would want.

I mean if you personally believe you are the best in the world, but your caste/group has lost much of it's respect and high standing in the eyes of the world's races, you're going to have high motivation to show and prove your calibre - you'd be motivated to do great and impossible feats by their standards. Things like uniting the elves, rebuilding works of great magical beauty and wonder. and you'd have great allies in the Shen'dralar revived Highborne caste who'd also be quite keen on those goals and welcome working in a night elven city like Suramar, and rebuilding both the ruins and the morale of their people.

I don't think anything could attract me to the Horde unless Night Elves, Draenei and Worgen switched to Horde or factions no longer exist in the ssme capacity as they do now. The latter being the most likely out of the 2.

If Nightbourne get some Nelf options then it should also have worked the other way around. If anyone thinks the darker skin tones for Nelves are Nightborne borrowed that's wrong because Azshara was a Night Elf and had a deep skin tone.

Uniting the Elves makes little sense in lore for now and the future. The sub-elves aren't just going to be cool with rejoining the Kaldorei after they were rejected by them and I don't see the Kaldorei ever allowing magic addicts back in their ranks. The Shen'dralar proved themselves to be different and selfless, even in the Burning of Teldrassil. The Highbourne are not a differrnt race to the Kaldorei they're Arcane using Night Elves. This obviously has an impact on physical appearance in terms of skin tone, hair colour and culture but it's no different to a blue elf compared to a green or purple one. A druid is culturally different to hunter who is different to a priest, right?

Blizzard don't want to show the magical side of Night Elves but we know it exists in 2 forms, the Highbourne and Demon Hunters.