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  1. #581
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post

    Exactly my point. Blizzard don't care about who got what "first" in the grand scheme.
    I mean, night elves weren't even the first ones to start studying druidism...but they are framed as the best of all Druids.

    Being "first" is no longer an argument, because Blizzard don't care.
    Night elves were the first to both study nature magic and to develop it into what was druidism.



    • Cenarius teaches night elves first, because they are so good and curious, the forest spirits are impressed and catch his attention. (from a love of nature perspective).
    • Night elves also love arcane (it's in their blood), nature was not enough, (not a problem), except when arcane advancements improved so much many stopped paying attention empire wide and it was mostly forgotten.
    • Cenarius leaves and then teaches some Tauren for a while (it's from a hunting perspective): - at this stage the grasp and development of the magic isn't developed enough to the level of a class. Technically we call them pre-druids
    • 10,000 years ago, Malfurion encounteres Cenarius in Val'sharah, he finds him worthy and teaches him. He applies the academic rigour (all night elves are use to) to what he learns and greatly develops those arts into druidism after the events of first invasion, aided by all those mages fighters and scholars who also drop the practice of the arcane to prevent the legion's return. Studying nature like they did the arcane, it is greatly developed, to the sort of level the arcane is.

    - - - Updated - - -


    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    Yeah and so do Orc Death Knights.
    Many books, 2 games and hardly any lore in the current game to show for it.

    Again, being "first" isn't important to Blizzard. You just need to deal with it.
    It's clear blizzard haven't organised their creative development well enough to properly manage the scope of their project in terms of lore. And the people who work there are not or were not senior enough or maybe didn't care enough to ensure the lore was properly represented and the appropriate resources to steward it well.

    Basically, for all the good stuff they did, it was not as well managed as other "deemed higher priority" departments. It's why no effort is made to tell a coherent story when cataclsym is introduced and new players have to go from cata to TBC then wrath that happen before it - no effort made whatsover to make the story coherent.
    The quest text box isn't even updated to this day
    It took so long for them to even bother to change the way they delivered quests and the story to be more engaging.

    They didn't even bother to alter texts to fit the perspective of the race or class you were using (part from the obvious <insert class?, <insert race> codes used to identify the clas and race of the person.
    Creative could have done so much more - imagine if NPCs also gave tons of lore information about the zones - whether bestiary, their race, their conflicts, can you imagine if extra lore knoweldge was unlocked when you were with your own race?
    or the story was told entirely from the perspective of your race - e.g. in Legion, it mattered if you were a blood elf toon that did the quests to help Dalaran - creative determines all of hti sand the flavour you get.
    RAther than just give zonal quests, they could have given racial campaigns as well as class campaigns too Continuing the story of each race along every expansion and giving your class things to do too.


    A strong leader would have advocated for the team to developer the tools for htem to easily insert quests and NPCs.... on.. even after all the bestiary and main zoneq uests are determined, you can craft racial quests and stories that advance each


    They were able to do such stories for 12 classes in Legion in addition to the main storyline of the expansion, they could have carried on with class campaigns and also done racial campaigns. They still can start ALL of the above.


    When games like WOTOR actually voiced every quest, with voice options based on your class and you gender even, and wow can't even bother to vary text or lines to reflect the significance of the race or class doing it - you can tell that it is low priority.
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2021-12-22 at 05:15 AM.

  2. #582
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Night elves were the first to both study nature magic and to develop it into what was druidism.
    My mistake.
    I'm not as well versed on Druid lore and I read that it was the Tauren, specifically, the Youngol who first studied nature magic.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    N
    It's clear blizzard haven't organised their creative development well enough to properly manage the scope of their project in terms of lore. And the people who work there are not or were not senior enough or maybe didn't care enough to ensure the lore was properly represented and the appropriate resources to steward it well.

    Basically, for all the good stuff they did, it was not as well managed as other "deemed higher priority" departments. It's why no effort is made to tell a coherent story when cataclsym is introduced and new players have to go from cata to TBC then wrath that happen before it - no effort made whatsover to make the story coherent.
    The quest text box isn't even updated to this day
    It took so long for them to even bother to change the way they delivered quests and the story to be more engaging.

    They didn't even bother to alter texts to fit the perspective of the race or class you were using (part from the obvious <insert class?, <insert race> codes used to identify the clas and race of the person.
    Creative could have done so much more - imagine if NPCs also gave tons of lore information about the zones - whether bestiary, their race, their conflicts, can you imagine if extra lore knoweldge was unlocked when you were with your own race?
    or the story was told entirely from the perspective of your race - e.g. in Legion, it mattered if you were a blood elf toon that did the quests to help Dalaran - creative determines all of hti sand the flavour you get.
    RAther than just give zonal quests, they could have given racial campaigns as well as class campaigns too Continuing the story of each race along every expansion and giving your class things to do too.


    A strong leader would have advocated for the team to developer the tools for htem to easily insert quests and NPCs.... on.. even after all the bestiary and main zoneq uests are determined, you can craft racial quests and stories that advance each


    They were able to do such stories for 12 classes in Legion in addition to the main storyline of the expansion, they could have carried on with class campaigns and also done racial campaigns. They still can start ALL of the above.


    When games like WOTOR actually voiced every quest, with voice options based on your class and you gender even, and wow can't even bother to vary text or lines to reflect the significance of the race or class doing it - you can tell that it is low priority.
    Or maybe they choose to focus on the current things, for the playable races.

    And it didn't matter what race you were, during Legion - the only added bonuses for playing a Blood Elf Fire Mage, Night Elf Balance Druid or Blood Elf Marksmanship Hunter was just added RP value. That was not reflective in-game by the lore characters.

    And yes, we did have class campaigns.
    We had the Mage order hall - which was very Human and Blood Elf led. Later, a Blood Elf Mage founded a Nightborne Apprentice.
    We had the Hunter order hall - all Elven led.
    We had the Shaman order hall - no playable race truly led this. It was about the Elemental Lords and Ladies.
    We had the Druid order hall - Night Elf heavy led.
    We had the Warlock order hall - multiple races.
    We had the Demon Hunter order hall - Blood Elf and Night Elf led.
    We had the Priest order hall - Draenei led.

    All of this is to say, Blizzard doesn't have time to dedicate things solely to each race.
    Yes, we could have racial campaigns - if the next expansion delves into that. They do have time to do that. Yes, we could have a couple of race/class specific quests, but that is very hard to do as not every race/class combo has it's own specific thing. For example, Monks that aren't Pandaren. How does this work?

    Then let's look at Blood Elf Warlocks, Human Warlocks, Night Elf Rogues, the Death Knights, Draenei Warriors - where can you fit quest lines in for these or do they just go on the same quest as their more "relevant" counterparts?
    So Blood Elf Warlocks do the same quests as Blood Elf Mages
    Human Warlocks - the same as the above
    Night Elf Rogues does the same quests as Night Elf Warriors and Hunters
    Draenei Warriors do the same quests as Draenei Paladins and Priests.

    We don't have time to make up new lore for those race/class combos that just aren't as large in their respective societies.

  3. #583
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Night elves were the first to both study nature magic and to develop it into what was druidism.
    If logic follows they were not, it was the trolls.

  4. #584

  5. #585
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    If logic follows they were not, it was the trolls.
    How so?

    It was night elves that did these things. Elves are a totally different race. It was a species transformation. Not a variation.

    Darkspears and Amani are variants of Zandalari.. not a new race.

    Night elves are a new race, of which Thalassians are a variant and Nightborne a minor variant too.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    My mistake.
    I'm not as well versed on Druid lore and I read that it was the Tauren, specifically, the Youngol who first studied nature magic.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Or maybe they choose to focus on the current things, for the playable races.

    And it didn't matter what race you were, during Legion - the only added bonuses for playing a Blood Elf Fire Mage, Night Elf Balance Druid or Blood Elf Marksmanship Hunter was just added RP value. That was not reflective in-game by the lore characters.

    And yes, we did have class campaigns.
    We had the Mage order hall - which was very Human and Blood Elf led. Later, a Blood Elf Mage founded a Nightborne Apprentice.
    We had the Hunter order hall - all Elven led.
    We had the Shaman order hall - no playable race truly led this. It was about the Elemental Lords and Ladies.
    We had the Druid order hall - Night Elf heavy led.
    We had the Warlock order hall - multiple races.
    We had the Demon Hunter order hall - Blood Elf and Night Elf led.
    We had the Priest order hall - Draenei led.

    All of this is to say, Blizzard doesn't have time to dedicate things solely to each race.
    Seems a management issue. They did this successfully in Legion and should/could have built on it. Kinda would be awesome if we had both class quests and race quests on a regular patch by patch basis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    Yes, we could have racial campaigns - if the next expansion delves into that. They do have time to do that.
    Yes please, YES PLEASE, I'm subscribing for 2 years minimum if they do this like seriously and properly. Not gimmick but like proper proper. YES YES YES !!!!!!!!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    Yes, we could have a couple of race/class specific quests, but that is very hard to do as not every race/class combo has it's own specific thing. For example, Monks that aren't Pandaren. How does this work?
    I think you won't do every combination, just the ones that are relevant. You could also create some new lore for certain combinations that don't have anything, like another race developing a strong monk class identity. New things always welcome.

    Not only that they could use it to introduce some new class/race combos or skins with good lore.. like Blood Elf Botanists as a skin for druids, Nightborne Valewalkers a nightbonre skin for druids. Whiles some off course who have some strong race/class lore already would expand on that.

    I wouldn't want them to delve into say Blood elf monk new thing or Botanist new thing but then not advance blood elf mage story with so much more toexplore like Blood magic and the Blood magi and phoenix magi, Sunreaver story expansion, what happened to magic and the wretched after teh sunwell - maybe something to do with mages and priests... Just like I'm sure while night elf fans might love some night elf undead DK lore expansion possibly with the Ravencrests, they won't want it at the expense of night elf mage lore with more to explore with Moonguard and star/moon magic, Highborne, Farondis etc.

    New stuff is great, but people want it in addition to expanding the existing stuff.

    Do they do all at once though? or do it in waves, and each time jumping to a different aspect of the race.. I mean if you are giving updates every patch and new campaigns every expansion, you have time to explore different things.. . Anyway, most but not all race/class combos have specific lore for them, , some just don't and shouldn't. I mean, you don't really play orcs to do a mage - not unless you really love orcs and all your classes are orcs.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    Then let's look at Blood Elf Warlocks, Human Warlocks, Night Elf Rogues, the Death Knights, Draenei Warriors - where can you fit quest lines in for these or do they just go on the same quest as their more "relevant" counterparts?
    So Blood Elf Warlocks do the same quests as Blood Elf Mages
    Human Warlocks - the same as the above
    Night Elf Rogues does the same quests as Night Elf Warriors and Hunters
    Draenei Warriors do the same quests as Draenei Paladins and Priests.

    We don't have time to make up new lore for those race/class combos that just aren't as large in their respective societies.
    Another approach would be to have the class order halls and class campaigns progressively focus on each race hat can be their class. however as some classes like warrior and rogue or mage have nearly all races able to be them, , probably do a cut off or limit of 6 most relevant races for classes that have lots of races?

    Top 6 Per Class
    Mage: Blood elf (and void elf), Night elf (and nightborne), Human, Draenei (not sure about Lightforged, but possibility is strong), Forsaken and Gnome

    These are the top 6 that have extensive arcane magic lore /identities from the lore - regardlesss of how large the group is or how much existing lore has been told. These are known for being the best mages or the most arcane magical.

    Warrior: Orc/Mag'har, Human/Kul'tiran, Troll/Zandalari, Dwarf/Dark Iron, Tauren/Highmountain, Worgen
    Warlock: Orc, Forsaken, Blood/void elf, Human, Gnome

    DK: Human/Kul'tiran, Orc, Forsaken, Blood elf, Night elf, Tauren, Troll
    Priest: Draenei/Lightforged, Zandalari/Darkspear, Night elf/Nightborne, Human, Blood elf/Void elf, Dwarf

    Paladin: Human, Draenei, Blood Elf, Tauren, Dwarf, Tauren
    Monk: Pandaren

    Rogue: Human, Forsaken, Worgen, Gnome, Goblin, Nelf, Belf, Orc, Vulpera [had to be 9 - they are that good, sub races included]
    Hunter: Night elf, Blood elf, Orc, Troll, Tauren, Dwarf, Worgen

    Druid: Night elf, Tauren, Worgen, Troll,
    Shaman: Tauren, Orc, Troll, Dwarf, Draenei, Goblin

    DH: Night elf, Blood elf

  6. #586
    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    I think you won't do every combination, just the ones that are relevant. You could also create some new lore for certain combinations that don't have anything, like another race developing a strong monk class identity. New things always welcome.
    The issue here is that your punishing players who didn't roll a Pandaren Monk.

    If I play a Draenei or Nightborne Monk, why should I be denied content that Pandaren Monk players can get? The argument of "Well roll a Draenei Paladin or Nightborne Mage" doesn't fly. Players won't be thankful for being denied content and indirectly being told, you rolled a wrong race/class combo.

    This is why I'm all for racial focus, but they race/class focus - that just isn't an avenue they can truly explore. Only a couple of quests...maybe...if Blizzard could get it to work.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    New stuff is great, but people want it in addition to expanding the existing stuff.

    Do they do all at once though? or do it in waves, and each time jumping to a different aspect of the race.. I mean if you are giving updates every patch and new campaigns every expansion, you have time to explore different things.. . Anyway, most but not all race/class combos have specific lore for them, , some just don't and shouldn't. I mean, you don't really play orcs to do a mage - not unless you really love orcs and all your classes are orcs.
    And the problem is, Blizzard can't develop what they've already got.

    What we'd be getting is a layer of crap on top of layer that is under-developed.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post

    Top 6 Per Class
    Mage: Blood elf (and void elf), Night elf (and nightborne), Human, Draenei (not sure about Lightforged, but possibility is strong), Forsaken and Gnome

    These are the top 6 that have extensive arcane magic lore /identities from the lore - regardlesss of how large the group is or how much existing lore has been told. These are known for being the best mages or the most arcane magical.

    Warrior: Orc/Mag'har, Human/Kul'tiran, Troll/Zandalari, Dwarf/Dark Iron, Tauren/Highmountain, Worgen
    Warlock: Orc, Forsaken, Blood/void elf, Human, Gnome

    DK: Human/Kul'tiran, Orc, Forsaken, Blood elf, Night elf, Tauren, Troll
    Priest: Draenei/Lightforged, Zandalari/Darkspear, Night elf/Nightborne, Human, Blood elf/Void elf, Dwarf

    Paladin: Human, Draenei, Blood Elf, Tauren, Dwarf, Tauren
    Monk: Pandaren

    Rogue: Human, Forsaken, Worgen, Gnome, Goblin, Nelf, Belf, Orc, Vulpera [had to be 9 - they are that good, sub races included]
    Hunter: Night elf, Blood elf, Orc, Troll, Tauren, Dwarf, Worgen

    Druid: Night elf, Tauren, Worgen, Troll,
    Shaman: Tauren, Orc, Troll, Dwarf, Draenei, Goblin

    DH: Night elf, Blood elf
    So - what if your a Troll Warlock...do you not get content? I mean, hell - Troll Warlocks are Witch Doctors. They are far bigger than any of the Elven Warlocks.
    What if your a Zandalari Troll Mage - they are known for covering Zandalar at the time of the Sundering, protecting their sacred lands.
    What if your a Dark Iron Dwarf Warlock, who are well known dark casters?
    what about Nightborne Hunter? We already see Nightborne Nighthuntresses and they've wrote about Nightborne Archers as well.

    These are the questions that would be asked. It's not worth the risk and you can't deny players content and force them into rolling race/class combos, just so they have something extra to do.
    It's either everyone gets something or nothing happens (in this field) at all.

  7. #587
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Night elves were the first to both study nature magic and to develop it into what was druidism.
    The night elves didn't develop druism, they were just the first ones Cenarius taught in that manner. Prior to any elven contact cenarius hung out with the Yaungol, so no they were not the first to learn nature magic.

  8. #588
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    The night elves didn't develop druism, they were just the first ones Cenarius taught in that manner. Prior to any elven contact cenarius hung out with the Yaungol, so no they were not the first to learn nature magic.
    Didn't both Chronicles and War of the ancients show he went to the Yaungol after the first round with the night elves? Night elves first, and when they started neglecting nature reverence, he leaves, and goes to the Yaungol. Then they drift/change, and then Malfurion, and under his guidance night elves take it to the level known as druidism.

    At least that's how it reads when you factor in the timings and overlaps.. and what Cenarius says.

  9. #589
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    The night elves didn't develop druism, they were just the first ones Cenarius taught in that manner. Prior to any elven contact cenarius hung out with the Yaungol, so no they were not the first to learn nature magic.
    Night elves are not the first to use arcane, nature or any magic for that matter. Trolls precede them in most (while it is possible that the trolls who go the furthest with magic are the dark trolls that become night elves). Trolls area already using all these types, but none (perhaps with the exception of elemental shamanism) are advanced, no specialties either in one specific type that we are told [at least not for arcane, nature, light, void or fel, not sure about death (necromancy is introduced by the legion thanks to the dreadlords) - so I wouldn't think death magic is known then either, but rudimentary nature, arcane, light for sure - at possibly greater elemental magic, at least amongst the Zandalari rather than the more war like fallen tribes...

    However it is night elves that first take to studying magic and develop it extensively to the skilled profession , fields and institution that constitute a mage class or a druid class - and they reach the highest levels of knowledge here so much that for modern mages, their ancient knowledge is more valuable than gold, and for druids, they still push the frontiers.

    As far as I am aware according to the books, Cenarius first meets with the night elves, it is remarked that no other race has shown their level of aptitude and impressed like they do, and he approaches them. giving their magical aptitude, it is not improbable that magic and knowledge is the most likely method of interaction.

    The night elves are studying the well of eternity at the same time this is happening too. likely priests seeking more of Elune as their intellect and capacity grows, over time, knowledge of the arcane gleaned from studies has greater and growing applications outside spirituality, philosophy and warfare, as the mage class develops and champions of the arcane arise, pushing frontiers, it's great and extensive benefits clear to all.

    With a natural aptitude for it, and it capable of literally doing anything (whereas nature is only life form focused), night elves are drawn more and more towards the arcane. The rising of Queen Azshara I think takes it further, her excellence and ambition drives a lot of progress in this field, they are able to do so much with it, you can imagine their amateur knowledge of nature is easily eclipsed and in a few centuries very few night elves are interested in pursuing the arts.

    So much so that knowledge of Cenarius is mythical to the denizens of Suramar around the time of the invasion of the Burning Legion and the period of addiction eating away at the heart of nobility of this benevolent race.

    Cenarius it appears is with the Tauren after the night elves have drifted. But his relationship with them is more hunting based than magical.. Either way, the use of nature magic is far too primitive to be called a class amongst night elf or Tauren. Although the night elves maintain their love and friendship with nature - if the reverence is not as prevalent as it once was.

    We know this because Ancient trees, far more advanced in druidic knowledge are very common in pre-sundering cities and communities. Wisdom and magic, it is these that together with the Highborne mages develop and build the great kaldorei cities. The night elves themselves are quite far away from this level of mastery. This would all change after the sundering.


    Malfurion, not a druid yet, along with this people , Moonguard/Highborne alike, all agree on mount Hyjal that they must stop using the arcane, to prevent the legion from detecting Azeroth and invading it again. Yes mages make this decision. No druid exists yet. IT is also here that many of the first druids, once mages - Moonguard and Highborne first emerge.

    Like Malfurion and all night elves of the end of the pre-sundering era, they are a highly intellectual and schorarly group of people. They would apply thier academic rigour and keen intellect to expounding their knowledge of the only other field of magic they have access too. Under his leadership, this knowledge would greatly advance to the extent it is an institution, profession, fully fledged discipline. And it is known as druidism at this stage.
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2021-12-22 at 10:02 PM.

  10. #590
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    How so?

    It was night elves that did these things. Elves are a totally different race. It was a species transformation. Not a variation.

    Darkspears and Amani are variants of Zandalari.. not a new race.

    Night elves are a new race, of which Thalassians are a variant and Nightborne a minor variant too.
    trolls existed at least, a millennia before the night elves, and were already a big empire, they knew loas and the wild gods like Gonk, they studied every kind of magic before anyone else, they would have study druidism and be druids themselves by the time the nigh elves began to appear out their huts.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    (while it is possible that the trolls who go the furthest with magic are the dark trolls that become night elves).
    nope, not at all.

    And night elves had the wheel to bump their power.

  11. #591
    I've realised something more about night elves, especially the Darnassian faction.


    They have a lot of arcane too, it's currently shown

    1. in the Well of eternity
    2. In the Moonwells
    3. in the Priest class offensive spells
    4. in the druid class offensive spells
    5. In the mage class and Highborne order
    6. in their pre-sundering era as a major aspect of their society
    7. In their origin
    8. in their eyes glowing silver
    9. In their purple skin colour

    But prior to cataclysm. There wasn't a mage order amongst the Darnassian group. So arcane is there a lot, but differently to how it was before.

    Now the use of arcane for magecraft spells and Highborne are back for the express purpose of using the arcane to help, they now also have access to all their pre-sundering capabilities thanks to the Shen'dralar and ancients

    They can now do the fanciest stuff from that era too. This is good new for them.. because now , the night elves lore wise are in a position to get the best of both their arcane and nature era.. but...what will the balance be between the two.?


    Let's be realistic based on the lore

    1. They are going to have cities. But not as many as in the past, and not all great architectural wonders, but they would at least have 1 that is amazing
    2. They are going to have many more forests and a larger emphasis on nature than the pre-sundering era.. but not as forest life as the long vigil - civilization and living has returned - Long vigil is over.
    3. They are going to have more mages, but it will likely be only about 1/3 of their population studying the arcane. - in pre-sundering era.. all learned, in the long vigil era, none learned. They will likely have the knowledge of the Shen'dralar, so some of the best magical knowledge, lost to others - but
    a) night elves aren't going to flock to the arcane like they did in the pre-sundering era when all the wonder was new and betrayal of Azshara hadn't happened
    b) likely only those who are mage talented would study, the other orders do use arcane spells, but only as a weapon, they don't use the arcane for building or creating wonders. While cata did show lots of arcane students, i am going to interpret that as the back log of those who had the talent, who weren't able to learn because of the ban, or didn't know.. i.e it would be high at first, then peter down.

    4. A far more balanced whole. not as arcane dominated like pre-sundering era (well the end of that era really), like the Nightborne show. This shows in
    a) many more priest minded people and priest ideal
    b) many more druidic/nature revering people too than before and better attitudes towards nature

    What it does not mean is that night elves won't have arcane wonders or beautiful cities- I concede that. You don't need your entire society arcanised to have those, you just need a few people who are capable and willing to do the arcane stuff, and a society that enjoys the good stuff



    The Night elven Benefits:

    Night elves should be shown to benefit from

    1. Nature and the druids - how?
    2. Elune and the priests - how?
    3. Arcane and the Highborne - how?

    For nature and the druids -
    Visually it's forests, treants, and many ore really cool and greater range for animals than any other races. You should also see more types of trees and flowers etc.
    Society wise - there should be more humility in general in night elves, anger towards desecration of forests or disregard to life - however, there should also be a hunting prowess, anger against destructive or out of control animals and flora.
    Nature's natural beauty and forests would be their domain and interest, get it as beautiful as possible, as rich and full of life and resistant against corruption and degradation.
    Units - druids are a whole community - got their lifestyle, their casters, meleers, tanks and healers. Also most of the ancients



    For Elune and the priests :
    Visually: It's temples, Temples in population centres like cities, but temples in forest communities, yes these won't be wooden lodges, but beautiful temples, reflecting the kaldorei culture and the honour and prestige but above all, the love the priests attribute and have for their goddess.
    Society wise: Priests actually move quite freely and influentially in all night elf centres, they are the cultural root, both the arcane and nature are connected, and the priesthood is what started this amazing journey, also the bastion of self discipline that can keep aa nation from ever losing self control to any form of addiction.
    Units: The priesthood has a martial wing below it's magical leaders. Sentinels, Wardens are both arms of the Order that have grown into institutions themselves. For the long vigil they were the army of the kaldorei, but that was when most men were druids, and they were in long vigil mandate and isolation. Now civilization returns, it's not all war nor all hunting, temple duties, people living lives, building families for a future - a future the night elves can now afford to have with the legion finally gone. Will the order's sentinels and Warden evolve into the police force and military of the Kaldorei, or will they just contribute to it, substantially or little, or will they keep it in house?

    To be honest, the druids, the priests and the Highborne are all self sufficient orders, they have multiple classes and skill sets - having their own casters, meleers, rangers, protectors and healers, each with their own deep bonds to the cosmic powers they study. The kaldorei are a nation once more, The order of Elune is neither equipped or existing to be the nation's civil rulers, however, together, all the order's can contribute.

    For Mages and Highborne:
    Cities and civilization - don't get me wrong, I realise now that druids and priests also build, but the fancy looking stuff, the wonders - like walls impossibly smooth, luminescent glass bridges, gems and adornments - they are interested in that. Also developing and advancing a civilization is driven by this group - note that with both the Shen'dralar and Darnassian who use to be Highborne now back in those roles, they'd probably be very focused on advancing the civilization side
    Society wise - civil leadership, organisation, administration and education would be spearheaded by them.. don't get me wrong, other orders do education and administer their own affairs, but as you can see a priest order is very religious, and druids are very much nature focused, this leaves a gap for these ones when it comes to places like cities.
    Last edited by Beloren; 2022-01-05 at 07:29 AM.

  12. #592
    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    I've realised something more about night elves, especially the Darnassian faction.


    They have a lot of arcane too, it's currently shown

    1. in the Well of eternity
    2. In the Moonwells
    3. in the Priest class offensive spells
    4. in the druid class offensive spells
    5. In the mage class and Highborne order
    6. in their pre-sundering era as a major aspect of their society
    7. In their origin
    8. in their eyes glowing silver
    9. In their purple skin colour

    But prior to cataclysm. There wasn't a mage order amongst the Darnassian group. So arcane is there a lot, but differently to how it was before.

    Now the use of arcane for magecraft spells and Highborne are back for the express purpose of using the arcane to help, they now also have access to all their pre-sundering capabilities thanks to the Shen'dralar and ancients

    They can now do the fanciest stuff from that era too. This is good new for them.. because now , the night elves lore wise are in a position to get the best of both theiir arcane nad nature era.. but...what will the balance be between the two.?


    Let's be realistic based on the lore

    1. They are going to have cities. But not as many as in the past, and not all great architectural wonders, but they would at least have 1 that is amazing
    2. They are going to have many more forests and a larger emphasis on nature than the pre-sundering era.. but not as forest life as the long vigil - civilization and living has returned - Long vigil is over.
    3. They are going to have more mages, but it will likely be only about 1/3 of their population studying the arcane. - in pre-sundering era.. all learned, in the long vigil era, none learned. They will likely have the knowledge of the Shen'dralar, so some of the best magical knowledge, lost to others - but
    a) night elves aren't going to flock to the arcane like they did in the pre-sundering era when all the wonder was new and betrayal of Azshara hadn't happened
    b) likely only those who are mage talented would study, the other orders do use arcane spells, but only as a weapon, they don't use the arcane for building or creating wonders. While cata did show lots of arcane students, i am going to interpret that as the back log of those who had the talent, who weren't able to learn because of the ban, or didn't know.. i.e it would be high at first, then peter down.

    4. A far more balanced whole. not as arcane dominated like pre-sundering era (well the end of that era really), like the Nightborne show. This shows in
    a) many more priest minded people and priest ideal
    b) many more druidic/nature revering people too than before and better attitudes towards nature

    What it does not mean is that night elves won't have arcane wonders or beautiful citie s- I concede that. You don't need your entire society arcanised to have those, you just need a few people who are capable and willing to do the arcane stuff, and a society that enjoys the good stuff



    The Night elven Benefits:

    Night elves should be shown to benefit from

    1. Nature and the druids - how?
    2. Elune and the priests - how?
    3. Arcane and the Highborne - how?

    For nature and the druids -
    Visually it's forests, treants, and many ore really cool and greater range for animals than any other races. You should also see more types of trees and flowers etc.
    Society wise - there should be more humility in general in night elves, anger towards desecration of forests or disregard to life - however, there should also be a hunting prowess, anger against destructive or out of control animals and flora.
    Nature's natural beauty and forests would be their domain and interest, get it as beautiful as possible, as rich and full of life and resistant against corruption and degradation.
    Units - druids are a whole community - got their lifestyle, their casters, meleers, tanks and healers. Also most of the ancients



    For Elune and the priests :
    Visually: It's temples, Temples in population centres like cities, but temples in forest communities, yes these won't be wooden lodges, but beautiful temples, reflecting the kaldorei culture and the honour and prestige but above all, the love the priests attribute and have for their goddess.
    Society wise: Priests actually move quite freely and influentially in all night elf centres, they are the cultural root, both the arcane and nature are connected, and the priesthood is what started this amazing journey, also the bastion of self discipline that can keep aa nation from ever losing self control to any form of addiction.
    Units: THe priesthood has a martial wing below it's magical leaders. Sentinels, Wardens are both arms of the Order that have grown into institutions themselves. For the long vigil they were the army of the kaldorei, but that was when most men were druids, and they were in long vigil mandate and isolation. Now civilization returns, it's not all war nor all hunting, temple duties, people living lives, building families for a future - a future the night elves can now afford to have with the legion finally gone. Will the order's sentinels and Warden evolve into the police force and military of the Kaldorei, or will they just contribute to it, substantially or little, or will they keep it in house?

    To be honest, the druids, the priests and the Highborne are all self sufficient orders, they have multiple classes and skill sets - having their own casters, meleers, rangers, protectors and healers, each with their own deep bonds to the cosmic powers they study. The kaldorei are a nation once more, The order of Elune is neither equipped or existing to be the nation's civil rulers, however, together, all the order's can contribute.

    For Mages and Highborne:
    Cities and civilization - don't get me wrong, I realise now that druids and priests also build, but the fancy looking stuff, the wonders - like walls impossibly smooth, luminescent glass bridges, gems and adornments - they are interested in that. Also developing and advancing a civilization is driven by this group - note that with both the Shen'dralar and Darnassian who use to be Highborne now back in those roles, they'd probably be very focused on advancing the civilization side
    Society wise - civil leadership, organisation, administration and education would be spearheaded by them.. don't get me wrong, other orders do education and administer their own affairs, but as you can see a priest order is very religious, and druids are very much nature focused, this leaves a gap for these ones when it comes to places like cities.
    Aww bless, looks like you are catching the night elf bug, it is catching because, of all the races in wow, this one seems to live far short of it's lore potential and established capability.

    Because they keep showing them so failed in wow, and you know their lore, it's like..hang on, they shouldn't be this bad, this impoverished, this weak or this shabby. And so you start advocating fort hem.

    I was a Thalassian elf fan first you know, and it's not for anything they did wrong, but night elves started so strong, but then were so weak in game, and at first puzzling, but after figuring out, you realise many don't understand, there is always a reason to start advocating them. Backing the underdog sur

    Night elves need a change of story. In wow, they've been characterised by tragedy, lots. Their life hasn't been easy, nor amazing..not in wow, it was over 10,000 y ears ago, but - it's been full of battle, struggle, with nothing great to show.. all the greatness in the past.

    This is what needs to change now, it's enough tragedy and seeing the poor and humbled side. time to see them in a different light, positive, victorious, glorious, majestic, powerful, that's in their lore, it shouldn't only be Suramar, and only associated with the horde (that's unfair to alliance fans when you partisan the story so)

    it's the famous group, that saved the world, the one led by Malfurion, Tyrande, that has stars like Illidan and new ones like Prince Farondis - it si this group you want to see now rising up and displaying really cool things and majestic things een - a change of scenery and a change of name/identity from the "ruins race, " or "the broken spirited race" , "the failure race".


    It's not good for a player race, especially a great one like this, not show off it's best, and seriously, it's just in bad taste to it's fans, to bring out the prizes and the jewels and then give them exclusively to the other faction you've have set them up to hate.. that is actually incredibly cruel. Yet they did, with no thought to how the alliance fans might feel (I'm talking about Suramar), and they didn't or haven't even tried to at least give the night elf fans something as good, or realised that the horde could get the nelf sub race, but not the assets. This is why people were annoyed and upset . That decision pissed off a lot of fans and was totally avoidable - it could so easily have been shared, so they need to make things better.


    For me, better would be either give the night elves something even better than Suramar, or actually give them Suramar, fix the mistake they made, either connect them with the Nightborne, or if they choose to make them enemies, I would say move the Nightborne into something just as good.

  13. #593
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Aww bless, looks like you are catching the night elf bug, it is catching because, of all the races in wow, this one seems to live far short of it's lore potential and established capability.

    Because they keep showing them so failed in wow, and you know their lore, it's like..hang on, they shouldn't be this bad, this impoverished, this weak or this shabby. And so you start advocating fort hem.

    I was a Thalassian elf fan first you know, and it's not for anything they did wrong, but night elves started so strong, but then were so weak in game, and at first puzzling, but after figuring out, you realise many don't understand, there is always a reason to start advocating them. Backing the underdog sur

    Night elves need a change of story. In wow, they've been characterised by tragedy, lots. Their life hasn't been easy, nor amazing..not in wow, it was over 10,000 y ears ago, but - it's been full of battle, struggle, with nothing great to show.. all the greatness in the past.

    This is what needs to change now, it's enough tragedy and seeing the poor and humbled side. time to see them in a different light, positive, victorious, glorious, majestic, powerful, that's in their lore, it shouldn't only be Suramar, and only associated with the horde (that's unfair to alliance fans when you partisan the story so)

    it's the famous group, that saved the world, the one led by Malfurion, Tyrande, that has stars like Illidan and new ones like Prince Farondis - it si this group you want to see now rising up and displaying really cool things and majestic things een - a change of scenery and a change of name/identity from the "ruins race, " or "the broken spirited race" , "the failure race".


    It's not good for a player race, especially a great one like this, not show off it's best, and seriously, it's just in bad taste to it's fans, to bring out the prizes and the jewels and then give them exclusively to the other faction you've have set them up to hate.. that is actually incredibly cruel. Yet they did, with no thought to how the alliance fans might feel (I'm talking about Suramar), and they didn't or haven't even tried to at least give the night elf fans something as good, or realised that the horde could get the nelf sub race, but not the assets. This is why people were annoyed and upset . That decision pissed off a lot of fans and was totally avoidable - it could so easily have been shared, so they need to make things better.


    For me, better would be either give the night elves something even better than Suramar, or actually give them Suramar, fix the mistake they made, either connect them with the Nightborne, or if they choose to make them enemies, I would say move the Nightborne into something just as good.
    I think the issue then with night elves is that they are not conveyed properly. But that is because the proper picture of the night elves needs to be shown. And in warcraft much of it is in books, rather than in game, so it's hard to actually get a correct reading of this.

    But if they keep changing deves and hire fans, it is inevitable that new fans working as devs would totally misunderstand the race and develop it how they think it is rather than how ti is and this will change the night elves into something else.. is that your fear?

  14. #594
    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    I think the issue then with night elves is that they are not conveyed properly. But that is because the proper picture of the night elves needs to be shown. And in warcraft much of it is in books, rather than in game, so it's hard to actually get a correct reading of this.

    But if they keep changing devs and hire fans, it is inevitable that new fans working as devs would totally misunderstand the race and develop it how they think it is rather than how ti is and this will change the night elves into something else.. is that your fear?
    Fear? I wouldn't call it fear, but this is a danger, a danger to at least what the night elves u se to be.. especially if they are being reduced to just forest elves, which is a distortion of a much bigger, grander, better adaptation of the elf type reduced to a typical generic fantasy forest elf - where originally they were meant to be the best of both the dark elf and forest elf all in one.

    You can't drive good development if you take sides and have favourites, so if current creatives have forsaken and Sylvanas as their favourites, or blood elves because the models are hot, they would inevitably give the best to them, which I suspect is how Suramar a night elf city and the Nightborne night elven subrace and clearly far more detailed than void elves, went to the horde. I could be wrong on the motive, but I know Nightborne were never designed originally to be horde, associated with or related to them. This development clearly came after.

    How to view Night elves


    From the lore, I view night elves as a post apocalyptic group that has had to live in the sticks because of what happened with the Legion for a very long time.

    But have neither forgotten their former lives or how well they did things. Have had complications because of the legion that prevented them from rebuilding their lives.

    the whole separation of Darth'remar's group was because Darth'remar felt it was time the elves rebuilt and started developing again, off course, magic was necessary for that. If the only reason for not using it was preventing the Legion detecting Azeroth and thus discovering it still had the Well of power (which is what they had thought the Legion was after), then ways could be devised to use magic without detection. And as the foremost expert on the portalling field above all those who survived gathered at Hyjal, he was the most qualified to make that assessment.

    ofc, Malfurion did not agree, and other druids - all former magi themselves and Moonguard were not all in agreement hence Darth'remar insisting hew as the most qualified amongst them - and he was.

    Malfurion felt it was madness, the risk too great and it must be addiction addling their minds to make such a suggestion.. but how could he not. Hew as a druid, the totality of nature was more than enough for him.

    Other night elves no doubt felt differently, this is clear, however you can understand, despite wanting more than just forests - the risk was too great in the eyes of many. In the end, only the Sunstrider clan dis-agreed and they attempted to prove it, but the storm they conjured wen out of control due to lack of practice, killing some and ofc breaking the edict, this is what resulted in the exile.


    Still the rest of the kaldorei amongst that group certainly remember their advanced lives, and during the vigil that would go on for an additional 7,000 years after Darth'remar's group's exile, they would continue in that life , making do without the arcane and without rebuilding or civilization in order to fulfil their vigil as best they knew how.


    All this changes in WC£ when the Legion return, and with it, this group exits isolation and their long hunting and guarding vigil also ends. For the first time they have to live again for other reasons, Fandral tries to lead them to restore their position and guide the nations. Tyrande is no civil leader, she is a priestess and huntress, leading a church and hunters in a time of war, not leading a civilization - she has no expertise.. this was his point of view, and he was right.


    Much has changed too after WC3, including the emergence of advanced night elven groups like the Shen'dralar and the Nightborne who you have to remember, lived in advanced cities continuing that lifestyle of comfort and convenience, but sadly also the decadence and addiction that marred the end of their golden age.

    You can't view either of these as primitive either and they help remind you that the night elven people aren't just forest elves.. but their context is sadly not clearly seen as much of this side of the night elves isn't visible in the game, at least not unless you read and think carefully on the quests, and what Dire Maul actually indicates and says, and what you are seeing in Suramar is Night elven, despite the different appearance of the Nightborne.

    Yet it's all there, it's just not as obvious to a lot of people I have found out.


    But anyway, 14 years of night elves in just ruins and forests gets boring when they can also have the likes of Suramar and Zin'Azshari. So one hopes they would at least get an incredible city that displays their arcane mastery , nature love, and reverence for Elune.. the best of the architectural style of the night elves, and one that emphatically shows they really are incredibly advanced, and yet their society leans and respects the humble druids who live away from such grandeur, humbly in caves - that seem so primitive, yet are actually the most sage and trustworthy, often knowledgeable of the lot.

    It's beautiful enigma that characterises the race. Most who come to the night elves new amazing city, and the legends of the magicians with so much advanced magical knowledge having returned to their people, would think it was the Highborne that controlled and led the night elves, because of their majestic appearance, unreadable faces, and magical knowledge and wonders they could perform, yet none of them would command respect as the simple clad druid, looking at odds amongst the marbled palaces and temples to Elune, that the people respect second only to Elune herself.

    think of them as jedi - just because Jedi dress in humble simple robes, take no attachments and have no interest in material things, so seem simple, yet are the wisest and most knowledgeable of the Republic, and their simple life and love of simplicity belies their power and capability, and for all the expertise of the scientists and weapons developers that drive the advanced civilization, it is the jedi that command the most respect and are often the most powerful individuals.

    This is how it is with night elves.

  15. #595
    @ravenmoon

    There is another way to look at this.. these elven groups exist on both factions because they are quite loved in warcraft, so you have a flavour of each on both sides.

    now I agree it isn't right to make all the horde ones really cool and magic and all the alliance ones kinda broken and deprived. Some would argue it should be the other way round, especially if you want to make the alliance more attractive.

    What I would say is that both should have both elements. You can't have the night elves alll forest and plain, it defeats their main reason for existence. Nightborne weren't created to split the civilization side of the night elves away from them but rather to focus on it more.

    So, solution is night elves should have their high end mages and a cool city, but the greater part of their focus should be the forests and Elune rather than the arcane. They should have enough to feel proud and enjoy this aspect of the race, but to be totally surrounded by it, you need to go Nightborne - there you will have most of your time in a city, and explore pre-sundering kaldorei culture.

    however by the same standard, the nightborne shouldn't be void of forests or Elune either, horde players should be able to experience that fantasy on their faction too without having to role night elves, because both Elune as a goddess and the forest are huge themes that shouldn't be possessed only by one group of elves on one faction, that is also unfair and it takes away too. So we should have some of that available to the Nightborne, a forest too of a similar style to the gardens in Suramar I would say and Elune.. Elune is very arcane based anyway, that's right up their street too, afterall it's that side of the night elves is why we have this part of Elune, and the druids have a whole section dedicated to arcane and balance.. so this also washes well with them.



    This is how you should also view the void elves and blood elves. To me, I see the void elves as the alliance being able to experience their treasured high elf lore and Thalassians, and it comes with a new side to them too, so that this is the bigger side of the faction rather than the high elves. Blizzard has allowed the high elf now to be playable, but i think the void elf should be the larger focus, whereas in the blood elves teh paladin and light is the larger focus. I think to balance off the dark void, they should allow the blood elves to experience the undead elves too as customisations. if they're not going to give us a bit of void which i understand because light and void are opposite and they've already kicked the void elves out for having the void.

  16. #596
    @Tanaria - I think you don't get hte night elves full scope.

    They are not just forest are entirely like the Sylvar of Ardenweald - this would be like saying humans are just famers or just warriors.


    Warcraft has full pure forests races, the Sylvar, and before them the Dryads/Keepers i.e. Cenarians, even the Worgen are moreso.

    night elves dshare that legacy, tend to it as ancient wardens of nature, but that isn't the limit, they also have an incredible civilization and excellence/proficiency in arcane magic too, this is another aspect of them. AFterall if humans can have a magician nation, and a separate priest thing going, also a warrior hting going and have several nations, why do you think night elves are just limited to one thing when this is a race that spanned the world, and had such a great degree of development? Their knowledge extended to many things, arcane, nature, titans, Elune etc.

    - - - Updated - - -

    People think of night elves like the Sylvar - but the lore doesn't fit that profile at all, night elves are high civilization people that had to adopt forest ways entirely because they felt they couldn't use their arcane half. So they developed a close kinship with the forest and learnt how to sue it well.

    That doesn't mean they forgot all the advancements they made.. it just means they developed greatly in nature and couldn't apply their arcane skills and knowledge. However once the legion returned, they opened up, and other night elves who are that way inclined and never stopped living with arcane returned to them, which is teh feastest way of bringing them up to speed and horning their very rusty skills too.

    So you end up having many types of night elves.. forest ones, city ones, nature ones, arcane ones, Elune ones too, temle ones, and fel ones. because this is an entire race of a fully developed group, not some highly one thing only thing.
    Last edited by Mace; 2022-01-18 at 11:26 AM.

  17. #597
    Well, sylvar types would never have a city, and Nightborne types would never have a forest (they'll just make it gardens) - the two represent halves of the night elves in the night elves you get both.

    You would have an Arden Weald type night forest, with those trees that seem to have the stars in it, i mean if they made the new Teldrassil, ishould be something like this, almost wrapped in the stars and always night at the top.

    But you would also have a great city too, Suramar grade or even better, as the new Darnassus.. you simply have Highborne types (similar to nightborne) almost exclusively in the city and maybe one another built town somewhere, then you would have druid types, like the Sylvar leaving in the forest, in homes in teh trees, beautiful and ornate but entirely wood based, with druids themselves in barrow dens.

    Hte combination represents the night elves.. ofc the city would have a huge Catehdral amongst other buildings and the priests in force there. an aspect that connects the two halves, mostly missing in both the nightborne and sylvar type halves.

  18. #598
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Well, sylvar types would never have a city, and Nightborne types would never have a forest (they'll just make it gardens) - the two represent halves of the night elves in the night elves you get both.

    You would have an Arden Weald type night forest, with those trees that seem to have the stars in it, i mean if they made the new Teldrassil, ishould be something like this, almost wrapped in the stars and always night at the top.

    But you would also have a great city too, Suramar grade or even better, as the new Darnassus.. you simply have Highborne types (similar to nightborne) almost exclusively in the city and maybe one another built town somewhere, then you would have druid types, like the Sylvar leaving in the forest, in homes in teh trees, beautiful and ornate but entirely wood based, with druids themselves in barrow dens.

    Hte combination represents the night elves.. ofc the city would have a huge Catehdral amongst other buildings and the priests in force there. an aspect that connects the two halves, mostly missing in both the nightborne and sylvar type halves.
    Waht surprisess me is how some people, possibly like Tanaria, thinking that being forest based means you can't do arcane magic, or are primitive or coudln't possibly know how to live in cities or do civilization.

    There have no basis for that assumption but prejudice and generalisaiotn.. but then this is what makes the night elves so appealing, and interesting, they are more than meets the eye.

    ANyway the evidence is all over teh lore, you see the arcaen history,if you know it, you know thit's the same people that built and walked those incredible cities that lived so humbly in the forests of the north when we met them in WC3. But we saw the spells too, the priests and the druids both using arcane spells. WE saw Darnassus, and it was exactly like the ruins of the night elf cities, just not in ruins (the old model versions)... and yet for some reason some of these people - night elves can't do cities or arcane magic, or are bad at it, despite them being shown the race born from it and intertwined entirely with nature, having some parts pure forest based and some pure city based.


    It's all there.

  19. #599
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    @Tanaria - I think you don't get hte night elves full scope.

    They are not just forest are entirely like the Sylvar of Ardenweald - this would be like saying humans are just famers or just warriors.


    Warcraft has full pure forests races, the Sylvar, and before them the Dryads/Keepers i.e. Cenarians, even the Worgen are moreso.

    night elves dshare that legacy, tend to it as ancient wardens of nature, but that isn't the limit, they also have an incredible civilization and excellence/proficiency in arcane magic too, this is another aspect of them. AFterall if humans can have a magician nation, and a separate priest thing going, also a warrior hting going and have several nations, why do you think night elves are just limited to one thing when this is a race that spanned the world, and had such a great degree of development? Their knowledge extended to many things, arcane, nature, titans, Elune etc.

    - - - Updated - - -

    People think of night elves like the Sylvar - but the lore doesn't fit that profile at all, night elves are high civilization people that had to adopt forest ways entirely because they felt they couldn't use their arcane half. So they developed a close kinship with the forest and learnt how to sue it well.

    That doesn't mean they forgot all the advancements they made.. it just means they developed greatly in nature and couldn't apply their arcane skills and knowledge. However once the legion returned, they opened up, and other night elves who are that way inclined and never stopped living with arcane returned to them, which is teh feastest way of bringing them up to speed and horning their very rusty skills too.

    So you end up having many types of night elves.. forest ones, city ones, nature ones, arcane ones, Elune ones too, temle ones, and fel ones. because this is an entire race of a fully developed group, not some highly one thing only thing.
    Well, Blizzard does and does not agree with you.

    The Darnassus Night Elves, who were caught in the blaze - those spirits who are now in Arndenweald - Sentinel, Druid, Priestess and Civillian alike - are all extremely happy to be in a forest once again.

    They have shown what was, 10000 years ago. What is now, is a city with large forest-based themes surrounding it.

    Basically, it is what Darnassus was.

    You can see, in Zin-Azshari that it was far more city than forest. Darnassus was the opposite.

  20. #600
    Herald of the Titans Ardenaso's Avatar
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    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

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