The Night Elves/borne discussion thread

[Alanar]

Raven, enough, he is entitled not to like the idea of night elves getting similar to what nightborne have, even if is kaldorei and even if you disagree. the thing is it's on the horde kaldorei now, and alliance fans have a long history of really whinging hard for stuff that' the horde has gotten - like you can't give us a break to just enjoy having something you like don't have.

I'm not saying we are right or noble to feel this way, but you guys can over do it a bit, it's just too much. Woe betide we get something prettier than you - we never hear the end of it.

I blame blizzard really they should not have used alliance races, but even then, they have every right to, night elven property does not belong to night elf fans, it's blizzard's and they can use it on the horde as and when they choose. It may suck, I can sympathise with you, honestly I do, I know it matters a lot to you, but can you sympathise with us too?

We have a right to like kaldorei stuff too when it comes to our faction and it's natural to be a bit territorial over it. But then I guess that's also exactly what you are being too - which is what makes it so ironical, right or wrong.

All I can say to you is I really hope they will return to you and do good for you too. that you get your cool fancy kaldorei city and multi-faceted group, I'll be happy for you, I'm sure it will benefit the game too and make the alliance more appealing - but no more suggesting we lose ours, not even to gain yours that's just infuriating no matter how much sense it makes to you - and I just hope the next time blizzard gives us something really nice, it will not be linked to a race that the alliance had first.

Its okey and thanks for your understanding. I mean.. I am sorry I just dont like hes ideas and its really not difficult or hard to understand what my goal is here.

Its impossible to work it out with some one who has been asking for the same hordestepping things for that long and on repeat. We cant talk like fans when we are here constantly needing to defend what we fought for and certain people here trying to steal or copy that.

Night elves dont repressent what they want them to be.. shame for them, but dont push that in our throats like we suppose to like that direction, when in reality we got that covered already in the nightborne.

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The thing is, allied races aren't new races. This was never their goal. We all asked for sub-races because we wanted the minor variants of the main races we saw around. A different kind of dwarf or orc, or draenei etc. While some can look a lot different like Broken/Draenei, the vast majority aren't.

Certain aesthetic features sure are distinc because they define the race others do not.

for nightborne - the architecture of Suramar does not define them, that's kaldorei, however the ear shape, that's defining. Being thin should not be defining because basically it's unrealistc that everybody has the same body size, however, until they start giving alternate body sizes to races as feature, it should remain unique to Nightborne. At least until then.

however, the arcane tattoos on Nightborne would be defining, but night elves having their own star arcane tattoos like we see on Tyrande, that's quite different from the Nightborne , so that's fine. But then, sothe tattoos on many races are similar, are we going to qubble on tattoos, because we want nightborne to be such a special snowflake Night elves can't come near them? It's not their purpose

You are looking to much into this.

Those features are defining in a game where costumization options are still really sparse. Anything that you give the night elves can easily ruin it for the other imo.

Stop with the allied races are no new races nonsense. It doesnt matter when they are treated and called as such in and out of the game. What their goal was is not even relevant.. what relevant was/is is that they would need to be distinct enough to be even playable. Their first introdiction wasnt received well because they looked to simmilar and not close to the npcs. We are only now here because of these options..

[ravenmoon]

Ye.. enough Raven. .

Nightborne are treated as a seperate race and this is shown in and outside the game. Its included in quotes of Thalyssra herself. No point in arguiing wether that is true or not. A sub race is a vague meaning since they went for allied races instead. We as fans are calling them that.

Enough of what? They are a separate faction but a night elf variant, all allied races are as @Mace just pointed out. We all know this.

Their skinny body is part of their story Raven. Being starved and went for alternate sources to stay alive is a core part of their race and whst other way is to show that in their look.

Yeh, but any race can have thin people, it's just that currently that option isn't available for players. My point was it shouldn't remain unique if they start granting body sizes, because the Nightborne model is the thin version of the night elf model. You won't be denying Night elves a thin model to keep Nightborne being unique when that comes along. Likewise Nightborne will have medium builds that look like night elves when that time comes. This is what I was saying

Eyes, ear shape, ormants, stance, mana hands and mana hair are part of the Nightborne kit and its still an ongoing fight to get more npc things.

Agree on ear, ornaments, stance, mana hands, mana hair and eyes. These variations are also fine.

I don't think night elves should get Nightborne ears, but Nightborne should be allowed to have night elf ears, some of the NPCs do, this variation is also part of their story.

Night elves on the other hand should be added star arcane tattoos and star effects to their existing vines, larger build (until races get body build sliders), scars. None of these is similar to what Nightborne have and it fits the night elf theme, so not sure what you are arguing again.

So bottom line is.. i see alot of: I want to see this and that for night elves. While I undsrstand more options for races accros the board are needed, this is not one of them.

You're not seeing what I'm saying, because I'm not saying that I want something because Nightborne have it. Nightborne have exemplified nicely some of the things night elves should have available, the reason is because Nightborne are built on night elves and those things are reflective of a part of the night elves, not something entirely different. There are something Nightborne have that are entirely unique to their existence as Nightborne. and are their own separate new thing. While I can desire those things for night elves, I don't actually.

Night elven glowy eyes were given to nearly every race after they were introduced to them. Now I have no problems Nightborne having those silver eyes, night elven frame etc, it's what they are, and I understand how something can feel less if you take the special things away.. but really if you read what i'm saying, i'm not wanting special nightborne things you value taken away or given to night elves. Star arcane tattoos are not a Nightborne thing, Nightborne don't have them, and frankly this is one aspect that the kaldorei should have available on them - it's the only effect addition to night elves I've asked about, that on the skinnier body frame which is on the nightborne atm, but as i have explained, only in the context of the game introducing body sizes for races.

Have you not noticed that I have only ever wanted what night elves have to be shown in the game for the playable faction, not half and half. The race just hasn't been fully fleshed out in game from the lore, and has bee slowly developed. We are only now seeing stuff about Elune, it took 6 years for them to write the arcane mages returning, (at least the druids and priests were already using their arcane spells. from the start of classic), and 12 years before we saw a full night elf city and proper representation of all their factions. Yes Legion actually showed all the night elven aspects in it. First time. Now I want that to be properly reflected in the playable faction too. But it came much later.. everything in wow did, especially for alliance races.

And I just dont agree with your view and I think the things we both summed up are nightborne features not to be mistaken for night elves. I said it before, bit going to say it again... giving things to night elves like: nightborne eyes or ear or body would just make night elves way to simmilar. That is a huge problem a want to a a (void) get it?

I much rather see sentinels, druids or like you said the night warrior being part of night costumizations more. You know something that fits them instead?

I hope you can see I'm not asking for night elves to get Nightborne eyes, or ears, and the body is to reflect the reality that some people are thin and not, and i feel all races should have alternate body sizes, not just night elves and Nightborne.. I think that the thinner body size fits the caster types, the Highborne, mage and priest types.

the same is for humans draenei etc, who have these super bulky warrior bodies that just look weird. Nightborne are basically the slim body size of night elves it is only in that regard I mention it.

[Mace]

Night elves dont repressent what they want them to be.. shame for them, but dont push that in our throats like we suppose to like that direction, when in reality we got that covered already in the nightborne.

I know you are referring mainly to myself and Ravenmoon in this topic and all night elves who like the arcane side of the night elves.

But I think you are wrong and that logic is flawed. It assumes because a sub-race covers or has an area present it doesn't need to be or shouldn't be represented in the main core race.

But that is not how the Warcraft races work, nor the elves and their sub-races. If it was, the work will be far lesser, you wouldn't have the beauty of having multiple aspects of the race. So night elves would only be what, druidic experts? out would go the priests because Draenei has them, out would go the hunters/rangers too because blood elves have them?

The way night elves do and handle arcane is also integral to the race and the lore and fully integrated. It is in their priesthood, their druids and their mages and their pre-sundering legacy and long vigil. They have all of this. Nightborne show the pre-sundering side with only the arcane taken to a new extreme. This is very specific.

This doesn't mean that night elven cities are now the exclusive purview of the Nightborne and night elven arcane magic is also only with the Nightborne. No. Night elves have this also and they are different from Nightborne because their city side (not forest side) will show an earlier stage of the pre-sundering era where the priesthood and arcane were intertwined, but today it would have advanced nature too in pay, not just by ancients like in pre-sundering time but night elves themselves would be able to carry that nature magic part alongside ancients.

Night elves show a whole and more balance picture - having greater detail and more rounded for both civilization and forest life, religion and fel. Nightborne only have arcane.

Unlike Highmountain who basically have most of hat the Tauren Mulgore have, Nightborne only have the arcane side of the night elves, and it looks different from how the night elve shave it because the night elves show a lot more of the kaldorei totality.

A Matter of Semantics
I'm sorry ALanar I disagree point blank that Nightborne mean that night elves don't have that aspect of their race, while your statement that nightborne cover that aspect of the night elves is correct, it is more accurate that Nightborne focus on that aspect of the night elves. Cover implies that they are handling it now instead (which would only make sense if they were together - and they aren't).

You are looking to much into this.

Those features are defining in a game where customization options are still really sparse. Anything that you give the night elves can easily ruin it for the other imo.

Stop with the allied races are no new races nonsense. It doesnt matter when they are treated and called as such in and out of the game. What their goal was is not even relevant.. what relevant was/is is that they would need to be distinct enough to be even playable. Their first introdiction wasnt received well because they looked to simmilar and not close to the npcs. We are only now here because of these options..

The NpCsss looked cool the live models did not. It was exactly the same problem with classic night elf models and the redone ones. As you're not a a night elf fan, you are only now weighing in to the issue when it came to the nightborne.. but we saw the exact same thing - and complained about it a lot. Especially for the female models, but at least they ahd some pretty faces, the male models had none. The conversion uglified them.

Nightbonre also had fewer options and . So while it is good for them to have more options, the same is also good for night elves too.

And I don't believe for a second having star arcane tatttoos on Tyrande makes Nightborne any less unique or ruins anything for Nightborne. That fatnasy of the arcane and stars is in every asepct of the night elves from their roigin, through thew ll of Eternity, Elune, druidism, and mages. It is a powerful and visible nod to their name and the one for m of magic that crosses all their disciplines - or idd you not notice that several night elf classes (priest, mage and druid ) handle the arcane?

However it is one specific and unique specialisation of arcane that is present ina ll 3, that is star & moon magic. While nightborne will share this, this is far more prevalent in the night elves - it is why Nightborne don't have star customisations and you see this in Tyrande instead.

It is a bit silly to think that because nightborne specialise in the arcane, night elves should have nothing of it, when it's all over the race and has been always. The best you can do is the focus of the arcane displayed in thet wo is different. It's literally like saying because blood elves are great at archery and have rangers in the forest that night elves can't have it. Arcane and rangers are things all elves have in common. And in the wow story, all elf variants get both arcane and forest love/rangerism from night elves.

this is not how you distinguish them, and they are not distinguished by removing the arcane or forest rangerism /archery from both because one already has it. They are distinguished in other things and the way they do arcane and foresty has similarity but also distinctions with certain areas having greater emphasis in one.

Bottom line is Night elven star tattoos don't make Nightborne less unique, and don't take away from them just because they are arcane.. I really don't understand your logic.. they are clearly a different style and look very different. Belong strongly on the night elf theme and is an area Nightborne don't have as prevalent. Sure they have stuff, but that representation is hugely kaldorei based, this is why they don't have star tattoos, it's not their biggest identifier, so they don't have to be, it's not as big in them as it is in the night elves, and the night elves don't have a visual represenation of this aspect to them on thier playable models. . They have a right to them too, but if you want to split.

[Tanaria]

Can I ask - who cares about night elves being the first elves? I mean, following this logic, anything the Elves get should also go to the Trolls (especially the Zandalari.)

Neither Blizzard, nor the majority of the playerbase cares about night elves being the first "elf" race.
Maybe it's time for MMO champion to stop caring about that boring fact as well..?

[Alanar]

I dont see it as flawed, I see it as.. lets look for other ideas or new things that they need or are truly missing stuff in the first place. Which is far more valuable and things would feel new, but only if. This counts for every race.

Like I said you are looking way to much into it, there would be no problem when you would come up with your own ideas that are not straight up copies of what we already have. We would never have this conversation. You want stuff that are very (your own term, (sub)race specific. There is nothing to discuss about that, I simply don't agree with it and it annoys me because it seems you think you speak for everyone about that arcane side. When yes its just you and raven. Now that is flawed in my eyes.

Its not silly when night elves never repressented the arcane side in game. Not in vanilla and not now. Its just not as prominant as the drood, sentinel etc vibes. This should be common sense by now. Night elves are unique that they dont have it and focus on other things.

Imo night elves should ask for stuff like the Malfurion antlers, beards or claws like druid of the claw, maybe add in more feairy aspects. When you speak of moon and night, the only way I see it fit within the night elven current culture is to cooperate the night warrior costumization of tyrande to the players and have variation on that. That should cover the star/moon aspect of night elves. To go back to the slim body topic or stance topic for that matter, these things do everything to a model in wow! We never could change stuff like that in the first place, this is the blizz way in making them different or distinct from each other. Hence I found it weird they didnt do this for void elves. That would have been a way better approach then what we have now.

The old elves or how you want to call them are the nightborne, they were there in times of old and this is what they repressent. They never stopped with their focus on magic like the night elves did etc, thats their thing. That is what I mean with its covered, so idk what you are talking about.. when talking about night elves need that side to be repressented as well.. when they really dont need that at all. Night elves have alot of room for exploration and variations on different aspect. Nightborne don't have that and is very clear is what they are suppose to be and that was the goal. Think about that for a minute.

As a side note.. lets be honest 3 out of the 4 playable elven races focus heavy on the magic aspect, being it raw arcane magic or void magic. The one who focus on nature aspect, droods/moonkin sentinels etc doesnt make it lacking at all, but it makes it unique.

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Can I ask - who cares about night elves being the first elves? I mean, following this logic, anything the Elves get should also go to the Trolls (especially the Zandalari.)

Neither Blizzard, nor the majority of the playerbase cares about night elves being the first "elf" race.
Maybe it's time for MMO champion to stop caring about that boring fact as well..?

It's stupid conversation.. when you think about how nightborne or blood elves for that matter used to be night elves or trolls to even go further back.

What's the point in discussing this? it's more about what they repressent or stand for.

[Mace]

Can I ask - who cares about night elves being the first elves? I mean, following this logic, anything the Elves get should also go to the Trolls (especially the Zandalari.)

it depends on what you are talking about and what the connection is.

Night elves, the same ones you play, highborne, priest druid are over 10,000 years old, these very people, whether you are one of those that went for 10,000 years without casting a sinngle mage based spell or you were one of thsoe who continued doing so.. one and all of you, your people uncovered teh secrets of the arcane, priest or mage, your people and your race devised the know how of these things and mastered it to extraordinary levels.

When it comes to to what you have right to or what signfies your race. it is relevant To the argument of arcane is the nightborne's thing and as they represent that half of the night elves it should be available to the night elves, this reminder serves to inform that, it is magic, arcane that makes the night elf a night elf. You can't remove i, it's just at the core and heart . What blood elves have and Nightborne have are because they come from night elves. ANd while they developed knowledge in other areas (Light for blood elves, chronomancy for nightborne amongst other things), magical aptitude, nature love comes from the night elves.

Exclusuding that from the night elves just because of the very visual presentation of the nightborne's home is silly.

Also Trolls can't make any claim to it, because the difference between night elves and trolls is the arcane transformation, the accumulation of magical knoweldge, ELune religion development and druidism first taught by Cenarius then developed by Malfurion all comes to night elves, not Trolls.. So just because night elves come from trolls, doesn't make trolls have access.

NIghtborne's magic is also kaldorei. And the Thalassians magical development comes from their kaldorei highborne predecessors who founded Quel'thalas - therefore directly connected to night e

Neither Blizzard, nor the majority of the playerbase cares about night elves being the first "elf" race.
Maybe it's time for MMO champion to stop caring about that boring fact as well..?

Sometimes you just shouldn't say anything if you haven't properly read what a person is writing and think otherwise you look stupid when you write something like this, and I know you are not stupid, and is how I can tell you haven't read what I wrote properly.

Take your time, digest. WE both love this topic right

[Tanaria]

it depends on what you are talking about and what the connection is.

Night elves, the same ones you play, highborne, priest druid are over 10,000 years old, these very people, whether you are one of those that went for 10,000 years without casting a sinngle mage based spell or you were one of thsoe who continued doing so.. one and all of you, your people uncovered teh secrets of the arcane, priest or mage, your people and your race devised the know how of these things and mastered it to extraordinary levels.

When it comes to to what you have right to or what signfies your race. it is relevant To the argument of arcane is the nightborne's thing and as they represent that half of the night elves it should be available to the night elves, this reminder serves to inform that, it is magic, arcane that makes the night elf a night elf. You can't remove i, it's just at the core and heart . What blood elves have and Nightborne have are because they come from night elves. ANd while they developed knowledge in other areas (Light for blood elves, chronomancy for nightborne amongst other things), magical aptitude, nature love comes from the night elves.

Exclusuding that from the night elves just because of the very visual presentation of the nightborne's home is silly.

Also Trolls can't make any claim to it, because the difference between night elves and trolls is the arcane transformation, the accumulation of magical knoweldge, ELune religion development and druidism first taught by Cenarius then developed by Malfurion all comes to night elves, not Trolls.. So just because night elves come from trolls, doesn't make trolls have access.

NIghtborne's magic is also kaldorei. And the Thalassians magical development comes from their kaldorei highborne predecessors who founded Quel'thalas - therefore directly connected to night e



Sometimes you just shouldn't say anything if you haven't properly read what a person is writing and think otherwise you look stupid when you write something like this, and I know you are not stupid, and is how I can tell you haven't read what I wrote properly.

Take your time, digest. WE both love this topic right

And basing all elves on nelfs is just as silly.

They're just nelfs Mace. Your not special for playing a nelf.

[Beloren]

I'm curious what you guys think if the nightborne were to build new stuff what woul it look like?

You see, I suspect they won't be able to replicate Suramar - you need priests and druids to build the likes of Suramar and Zin'Azshari, and a philosophy of moulding the vision to the land and environment that is lost amongst the Nightborne.

Whatever they build, would be different, not by that much, but it won't be the same. Imo, it would be more like Silvermoon. Silvermoon doesn't have the kaldorei nature philosophy interwoven in it's make up, it's a reflection of just Highborne mindset, as it was built by Highborne - although the high elves would have modified it and upgraded it constantly over time.

The books are clear that the Ancients and Highborne together built the night elf cities, and it is clear the priestesses would have been the main architects of the most beautiful buildings, the Temples.. especially the Cathedral. I don't think the nightborne would replicate this style.

The game has shown the Night elves would. Darnassus is basically the pre-sundering architecture using the old models, sand it's clear when we see the new models Nar'thalas and Suramar are based on and Zin'Azshari, that it's based on that. We also see the night elven villages use pre-sundering village architecture too, - this means the Night elves have not changed their style and have not updated it, they will build the same.


The nightborne have stated they will no longer stagnate, my opinion is that they would build something even better than Suramar and Zin'azshari - i think the colours would be darker too, but for style it would more closely resemble Silvermoon, because they like the Thalassian, became an elven community without the Elune and nature influences - meanwhile the Kaldorei basically have all the components of their original civilization that developed and so would be the only ones replicating it.

So the question is.. will new Silvermoon be a join effort between Nightborne and Blood elves and be something more spectacular than just model updates? Will it have a Nightborne section too that will display a new style of architecture that is absolutely amazing.??

And one, because of this, that night elf fans and alliance high/void elf fans cannot lay claim too?

You see, The Ravenmoon's and Mace are so gong ho about having a fancy kaldorei city - but those models are already in game, their new city will just look on par with Suramar and Zin'Azshari, and I'm fine with that - I'd rather them build something new for Thalassians who haven't been updated than do yet another iteration of night elfven architecture.. just combine and recolour what they did for Nar'thalas, Suramar and Zin'Azshari for them.. they'll be happy, and we can have them focus on us

Also void elves have had no architectural growth, with high elves they would just build a replica old Silvermoon with void modifications like having the void wings instead of Phoenix wings as tower tops, different colour scheme and maybe texture pattering of the walls.

It is rebuilt Silvermoon that imo, has the chance to be something even more breath-taking than we have ever seen, and there is a lore excuse for it now, the Nightborne, all their creativity that they never had the resources to add to Suramar during the bubble, and their new vision combined with how the blood elves have grown.


This I would love to see.

[Mace]

And basing all elves on nelfs is just as silly.

They're just nelfs Mace. Your not special for playing a nelf.

Sigh, all elves are based on night elves, they all come from ngiht elves, that's the lore. The arcane love and nature love in Thalassians coems from the nighte lves, this is where it is developed and w are shown it is an affinity of night elves - that carries on to the thalassian elves.

The things the Thalassians have developed that the night elves don't have is the Holy Light mastery , and recently blood magic. As for Nightborne, they are just night elves on the horde, but their society has only developed chronomagic, differently, with Elunism and druidism rather died down.

[Tanaria]

Sigh, all elves are based on night elves, they all come from ngiht elves, that's the lore. The arcane love and nature love in Thalassians coems from the nighte lves, this is where it is developed and w are shown it is an affinity of night elves - that carries on to the thalassian elves.

The things the Thalassians have developed that the night elves don't have is the Holy Light mastery , and recently blood magic. As for Nightborne, they are just night elves on the horde, but their society has only developed chronomagic, differently, with Elunism and druidism rather died down.

So what - who cares? 0.1% of the playerbase and that's being kind.
The Isle of Thunder patch was based on High Elves vs Blood Elves - it wasn't to do with any weird "these pale night elf like people are fighting each other."

Next to nobody, cares about them coming from night elves. I'm sorry, but that's just fact as well.
Blood Elf fans love Blood Elves, not because they come from nelfs - but for being Blood Elves (and actually, not being nelfs.)

[ravenmoon]

Raven, enough, he is entitled not to like the idea of night elves getting similar to what nightborne have, even if is kaldorei and even if you disagree. the thing is it's on the horde kaldorei now, and alliance fans have a long history of really whinging hard for stuff that' the horde has gotten - like you can't give us a break to just enjoy having something you like don't have.

I'm not saying we are right or noble to feel this way, but you guys can over do it a bit, it's just too much. Woe betide we get something prettier than you - we never hear the end of it.

I blame blizzard really they should not have used alliance races, but even then, they have every right to, night elven property does not belong to night elf fans, it's blizzard's and they can use it on the horde as and when they choose. It may suck, I can sympathise with you, honestly I do, I know it matters a lot to you, but can you sympathise with us too?

We have a right to like kaldorei stuff too when it comes to our faction and it's natural to be a bit territorial over it. But then I guess that's also exactly what you are being too - which is what makes it so ironical, right or wrong.

All I can say to you is I really hope they will return to you and do good for you too. that you get your cool fancy kaldorei city and multi-faceted group, I'll be happy for you, I'm sure it will benefit the game too and make the alliance more appealing - but no more suggesting we lose ours, not even to gain yours that's just infuriating no matter how much sense it makes to you - and I just hope the next time blizzard gives us something really nice, it will not be linked to a race that the alliance had first.

some hordies feel it is ridiculous that alliance fans want their stuff so much, but alliance fans actually just want their own i.e alliance stuff.

The night elf fantasy, the high elf fantasy those were first given to the alliance and all that is in the blood elves and nightborne is in/from the night elves and high elves except for the developments made as nightborne and blood elves. However it is not developed there on the alliance, rather the horde was bent to take those very alliance themes and the alliance fans left without. This was done to draw alliance fans to the horde, which it did, although by the time of the Nightborne it wasn't necessary


You don't see alliance fans asking for orc, troll, goblin, forsaken, Zandalari or vulpera stuff no matter how cool they are - because those do not exist on the alliance. If you pay close attention to myself or my brother and a lot of fans, you will see their references are to what the night elves and high elves have and wanting to see that better versions on thier faction.

I don't begrudge the horde having those things as much as you may think I do - even if I feel it was a mistake in terms of faction dilneation - which is ironic becasue now Alanar wants the two elves to be as separate as possible, but rejects the horde and alliance being distinct as possible which would require the horde elves crossing over. He likes the nightboren and blood elves which I understand, but then wants only tehm to have those assets and fantasy which is just unfair to alliance fans and doens't seem to get why an alliance fan doesn't want to cross the faction barrier to experience great parts of the fantasy of their favourite race.

No wonder no one plays the alliance, the races tehey like the most basically are fed scraps and not developed, meanwhile they take the best bits they build for their fantasy and give it to the other faction. Deny it all you want, this is what happened, night elf players want to see their great kaldorei cities on their faction, their great magic users in arcane, Elune or druidism, their great forests and temples too.. they don't watn to be kept down, only having defeats, ruins, and devastated forests to show for it - while only the horde side get to recover what was lost or if it isn't destroyed it's taken over.

the horde was shared the elven races, you simplycan't expect alliance elf fans to be okay with the horde keeping everything that's nice about their races while all they get is devastation and ruins and defeats... and they wonder why no one wants to play the alliance - and cry it's raids - yes a blodo elf fan that doesn't want the alliance to be developed will balme something that won't force an improvement to the allinace as teh reason.

But it's simple, improve the alliance, and peopelw ill play it more.. stop giving them trash.

[Tanaria]

Reading you guys makes me think that Nightborne should have been a neutral allied race (like Panderen as a race).

Don't start that again! It's so 2018...if people can't get over Nightborne going Horde then it's not our problem.

[ravenmoon]

Reading you guys makes me think that Nightborne should have been a neutral allied race (like Panderen as a race).

The horde is given stuff form the alliance, the really best versions aspects of the most loved alliance races.

Then instead of improving the alliance versions also, they destroy them even further. Then horde fans don't understand or accept why alliance fans want their elves developed. Because they are destroyed off course, and they also want their stuff to look nice, having seen it on the horde. But some horde fans don't want them to have it, because they know those elves stuff is basically the same thing they have, and they just want it it all for themselves. [oh I want to look differnet, i want to have this theme only ..so you can't have it..... REPLY: But honey, that stuff you love so much, is part of the alliance elves, this is why they have a right to have it.
ButI don't want htem to, because i like it very much and i have it now, it should stay mine, mine mine,
But honey, it's not jut yours, it's theirs also, you get it because your suff is their race stuff


Don't understand, you share the alliance race with the horde, but the horde fan doesn't want the nice bits to be seen on the alliance.. This is what it it's about.

But the thing is blizzard already shared the alliance race to the horde, but some of these fans don't want those original alliance races to developed well or look as nice. they resent me saying the alliance stuff for their elves should look better, both because they are the originals and the alliance needs the attraction too.


And actually on the whole horde, the only thing alliance fans like are guess what? The alliance races that are shared with the horde. Funny that. Develop the alliance elves to have their own amazing versions of the things their races have - do it as well as you did it when you gave it to the horde or even better, to make a strong message that will attract players back. Do this and ping the "let's develop the alliance" threads will stop.

They are only there because of the shitty state of the alliance races. When the horde was in that low developed state, many in the horde asked for development despite the fact that that state was the theme of the horde, ye tit surprises them every time alliance asked for high elves or for night elven development.. Like what do you expect fans of a race to ask for when their stuff is so poorly developed in comparison and they see it all better on the horde . Everyone goes there. D'uh



They shared the alliance race with the horde, the alliance will get those assets too -whether it's the ones already in game or newer versions of it - it's not going to be remarkable different, elves arne't the only race in the game.. the blood elf stuff developed is high elf/void elf stuff, the Nightborne stuff developed was actually developed for night elves and those Nightborne were supposed to return to being night elves, but they decided to make them playable and go to the horde, don't be surprised if the night elves get their own version too.. this sis what sharing means.

They aren't going to design separate version of pandaren for horde and alliance to be different - this is what sharing means. People who wanted high elves did not want something didfferent, they want the high elves in the game. They know they are part of the alliance, and know taken from their faction, they know none of it belongs to the horde no matter what the horde fans say.

[Mace]

Some humans just don't like to share what they really like..even when they have no real and certainly no exclusive right to it.

Even this world we all live in and share.. if they had their way, and could manage it, you wouldn't have any of it or be allowed to exist. Some try very hard in this world to make that a reality. They will not get their way, rather than end the

[Tanaria]

No playable race has every aspect of it's race, covered.

I see no reason why nelfs are special snowflakes who should have this?

Your going to get the aspects that are relative to the Alliance/Hyjal Night Elves, that are Druidic/Sentinel/Priestess/Warden led.
That means, no special death knights, no special demon hunters, maybe a small mage story - but as we've seen in expansions that focus on the Alliance, it's Druid, Sentinel and Priestess driven.

Same for Blood Elves, who are Magister/Farstrider/Blood Knight led.
That means we won't get any special Warlocks, Rogues, Warriors or demon hunters.

Like night elf mages in the War of Thorns, we did get a few Silvermoon Priests in Legion at the Broken Shore event.

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the Nightborne stuff developed was actually developed for night elves and those Nightborne were supposed to return to being night elves, but they decided to make them playable and go to the horde

Where is your evidence that this was Blizzard's intention?

Are we now suggesting that the exiled nightborne who became the Fal'dorei, were also due to being reverted back to being night elves?

You can't make these claims without backing it up.
It's just like you and Mace peddling the endless lie of "shen'dralar were scrying on the world" and not giving the evidence. (In fact, you've both given about 7 or 8 different sources of where this information was, but each time - it wasn't there.)

[Mace]

No playable race has every aspect of it's race, covered.

I see no reason why nelfs are special snowflakes who should have this?

It's all a development , it happens in time, as every race is developed they focus on their other aspects, some have more done than others, the races that have been around the longest have the most development - or I should say the major races.


Humans and Orcs:

Humans = warriors (much of that covered), Mages (dalaran/Karazhan etc), Priests (Church of the Light), Paladins (Silverhand etc)
There 4 main are covered.
Orcs = warriors, warlocks, hunters, shaman.

Expecting this or desiring this has nothing to do with being a special snowflake, i would with the same development on every race, but am only speaking in the capacity of the night elves here.

Your going to get the aspects that are relative to the Alliance/Hyjal Night Elves, that are Druidic/Sentinel/Priestess/Warden led.

and night elves that have Highborne and demon hunters too, as well as DKs, they don't need to be part of the main faction to be developed or developed for the players too - this much is clear, but they do neeed to be developed for the players. They don't have to be huge or small in faction, size is irrelevant, it's what their package is. Hunters and rangers are huge but have almost zero presence amongst the night elves in -game presentation, only noticeably showing up for the first time in game since Wc3 in the War of thorns /rolleyes

And let us remember faction aside, the game has shown a lot .. question is where would they write the story of the night elves?

That means, no special death knights, no special demon hunters, maybe a small mage story - but as we've seen in expansions that focus on the Alliance, it's Druid, Sentinel and Priestess driven.

Well, as demon hunters are largely night elves and have their own story, I would say they have serious development. Night elf mages have a lot of lore and presences, 4 books write a lot about them, and Legion actually shows more of them than it does of night elf druids and priests.

I do keep pointing this out. It's there, we just want the playable faction story developed - no not shown as rubbished and actually being the best of all the night elven groups. as should be.

It's all there, both in the lore and in the game, it's just done in such a way the playable faction doesn't look good and doesn't shine - and instead of getting better, gets worse, and I am left wondering, what does this achieve but just annoy us. Well I guess it makes horde partisan rivalry fans happy, I suppose..

Where is your evidence that this was Blizzard's intention?

This is rich coming from the guy that constantly declares what both will happen blizzard wise and fan wise - with no evidence and no clue.

[Tanaria]

This is rich coming from the guy that constantly declares what both will happen blizzard wise and fan wise - with no evidence and no clue.

So you can't provide evidence then? Attack is your best form of defense.

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It's all a development , it happens in time, as every race is developed they focus on their other aspects, some have more done than others, the races that have been around the longest have the most development - or I should say the major races.


Humans and Orcs:

Humans = warriors (much of that covered), Mages (dalaran/Karazhan etc), Priests (Church of the Light), Paladins (Silverhand etc)
There 4 main are covered.
Orcs = warriors, warlocks, hunters, shaman.

Expecting this or desiring this has nothing to do with being a special snowflake, i would with the same development on every race, but am only speaking in the capacity of the night elves here.

So where are the Orc death knights?

I mean, if "first" is so special, where are all the special Orc Death Knights? The very first Death Knights..
You saw them in-game with Teron Gorefiend, we've had games and books about them...? So where are they...if the "first" is so special?

Exactly my point. Blizzard don't care about who got what "first" in the grand scheme.
I mean, night elves weren't even the first ones to start studying druidism...but they are framed as the best of all Druids.

Being "first" is no longer an argument, because Blizzard don't care.

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Well, as demon hunters are largely night elves and have their own story, I would say they have serious development. Night elf mages have a lot of lore and presences, 4 books write a lot about them, and Legion actually shows more of them than it does of night elf druids and priests.

I do keep pointing this out. It's there, we just want the playable faction story developed - no not shown as rubbished and actually being the best of all the night elven groups. as should be.

It's all there, both in the lore and in the game, it's just done in such a way the playable faction doesn't look good and doesn't shine - and instead of getting better, gets worse, and I am left wondering, what does this achieve but just annoy us. Well I guess it makes horde partisan rivalry fans happy, I suppose..

Yeah and so do Orc Death Knights.
Many books, 2 games and hardly any lore in the current game to show for it.

Again, being "first" isn't important to Blizzard. You just need to deal with it.

[ravenmoon]

Exactly my point. Blizzard don't care about who got what "first" in the grand scheme.
I mean, night elves weren't even the first ones to start studying druidism...but they are framed as the best of all Druids.

Being "first" is no longer an argument, because Blizzard don't care.

Night elves were the first to both study nature magic and to develop it into what was druidism.

• Cenarius teaches night elves first, because they are so good and curious, the forest spirits are impressed and catch his attention. (from a love of nature perspective).
• Night elves also love arcane (it's in their blood), nature was not enough, (not a problem), except when arcane advancements improved so much many stopped paying attention empire wide and it was mostly forgotten.
• Cenarius leaves and then teaches some Tauren for a while (it's from a hunting perspective): - at this stage the grasp and development of the magic isn't developed enough to the level of a class. Technically we call them pre-druids
• 10,000 years ago, Malfurion encounteres Cenarius in Val'sharah, he finds him worthy and teaches him. He applies the academic rigour (all night elves are use to) to what he learns and greatly develops those arts into druidism after the events of first invasion, aided by all those mages fighters and scholars who also drop the practice of the arcane to prevent the legion's return. Studying nature like they did the arcane, it is greatly developed, to the sort of level the arcane is.

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Yeah and so do Orc Death Knights.
Many books, 2 games and hardly any lore in the current game to show for it.

Again, being "first" isn't important to Blizzard. You just need to deal with it.

It's clear blizzard haven't organised their creative development well enough to properly manage the scope of their project in terms of lore. And the people who work there are not or were not senior enough or maybe didn't care enough to ensure the lore was properly represented and the appropriate resources to steward it well.

Basically, for all the good stuff they did, it was not as well managed as other "deemed higher priority" departments. It's why no effort is made to tell a coherent story when cataclsym is introduced and new players have to go from cata to TBC then wrath that happen before it - no effort made whatsover to make the story coherent.
The quest text box isn't even updated to this day
It took so long for them to even bother to change the way they delivered quests and the story to be more engaging.

They didn't even bother to alter texts to fit the perspective of the race or class you were using (part from the obvious <insert class?, <insert race> codes used to identify the clas and race of the person.
Creative could have done so much more - imagine if NPCs also gave tons of lore information about the zones - whether bestiary, their race, their conflicts, can you imagine if extra lore knoweldge was unlocked when you were with your own race?
or the story was told entirely from the perspective of your race - e.g. in Legion, it mattered if you were a blood elf toon that did the quests to help Dalaran - creative determines all of hti sand the flavour you get.
RAther than just give zonal quests, they could have given racial campaigns as well as class campaigns too Continuing the story of each race along every expansion and giving your class things to do too.


A strong leader would have advocated for the team to developer the tools for htem to easily insert quests and NPCs.... on.. even after all the bestiary and main zoneq uests are determined, you can craft racial quests and stories that advance each


They were able to do such stories for 12 classes in Legion in addition to the main storyline of the expansion, they could have carried on with class campaigns and also done racial campaigns. They still can start ALL of the above.


When games like WOTOR actually voiced every quest, with voice options based on your class and you gender even, and wow can't even bother to vary text or lines to reflect the significance of the race or class doing it - you can tell that it is low priority.

[Tanaria]

Night elves were the first to both study nature magic and to develop it into what was druidism.

My mistake.
I'm not as well versed on Druid lore and I read that it was the Tauren, specifically, the Youngol who first studied nature magic.

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N
It's clear blizzard haven't organised their creative development well enough to properly manage the scope of their project in terms of lore. And the people who work there are not or were not senior enough or maybe didn't care enough to ensure the lore was properly represented and the appropriate resources to steward it well.

Basically, for all the good stuff they did, it was not as well managed as other "deemed higher priority" departments. It's why no effort is made to tell a coherent story when cataclsym is introduced and new players have to go from cata to TBC then wrath that happen before it - no effort made whatsover to make the story coherent.
The quest text box isn't even updated to this day
It took so long for them to even bother to change the way they delivered quests and the story to be more engaging.

They didn't even bother to alter texts to fit the perspective of the race or class you were using (part from the obvious <insert class?, <insert race> codes used to identify the clas and race of the person.
Creative could have done so much more - imagine if NPCs also gave tons of lore information about the zones - whether bestiary, their race, their conflicts, can you imagine if extra lore knoweldge was unlocked when you were with your own race?
or the story was told entirely from the perspective of your race - e.g. in Legion, it mattered if you were a blood elf toon that did the quests to help Dalaran - creative determines all of hti sand the flavour you get.
RAther than just give zonal quests, they could have given racial campaigns as well as class campaigns too Continuing the story of each race along every expansion and giving your class things to do too.


A strong leader would have advocated for the team to developer the tools for htem to easily insert quests and NPCs.... on.. even after all the bestiary and main zoneq uests are determined, you can craft racial quests and stories that advance each


They were able to do such stories for 12 classes in Legion in addition to the main storyline of the expansion, they could have carried on with class campaigns and also done racial campaigns. They still can start ALL of the above.


When games like WOTOR actually voiced every quest, with voice options based on your class and you gender even, and wow can't even bother to vary text or lines to reflect the significance of the race or class doing it - you can tell that it is low priority.

Or maybe they choose to focus on the current things, for the playable races.

And it didn't matter what race you were, during Legion - the only added bonuses for playing a Blood Elf Fire Mage, Night Elf Balance Druid or Blood Elf Marksmanship Hunter was just added RP value. That was not reflective in-game by the lore characters.

And yes, we did have class campaigns.
We had the Mage order hall - which was very Human and Blood Elf led. Later, a Blood Elf Mage founded a Nightborne Apprentice.
We had the Hunter order hall - all Elven led.
We had the Shaman order hall - no playable race truly led this. It was about the Elemental Lords and Ladies.
We had the Druid order hall - Night Elf heavy led.
We had the Warlock order hall - multiple races.
We had the Demon Hunter order hall - Blood Elf and Night Elf led.
We had the Priest order hall - Draenei led.

All of this is to say, Blizzard doesn't have time to dedicate things solely to each race.
Yes, we could have racial campaigns - if the next expansion delves into that. They do have time to do that. Yes, we could have a couple of race/class specific quests, but that is very hard to do as not every race/class combo has it's own specific thing. For example, Monks that aren't Pandaren. How does this work?

Then let's look at Blood Elf Warlocks, Human Warlocks, Night Elf Rogues, the Death Knights, Draenei Warriors - where can you fit quest lines in for these or do they just go on the same quest as their more "relevant" counterparts?
So Blood Elf Warlocks do the same quests as Blood Elf Mages
Human Warlocks - the same as the above
Night Elf Rogues does the same quests as Night Elf Warriors and Hunters
Draenei Warriors do the same quests as Draenei Paladins and Priests.

We don't have time to make up new lore for those race/class combos that just aren't as large in their respective societies.

[Syegfryed]

Night elves were the first to both study nature magic and to develop it into what was druidism.

If logic follows they were not, it was the trolls.