F*** the Horde AND the Alliance; I want cross-faction PvE raiding!

[Mestalis]

You'll only have to wait another 2 years. The only reason for Blizz to have added the faction banners to the character selection screen is because they will be loosening cross-faction restrictions. Everyone has already been speculating that 10.0 would be the best time for a second revamp. Ion has hinted at a time-skip post Shadowlands. All signs point to major changes coming with the xpac after Shadowlands, and I believe cross-faction play will be among them.

[Doffen]

Yeah, faction barrier just hurts the game now.

[Thage]

Wrong. Everything you said can be undone with one action by one of the factions. It is naive to think that just because there is a peace now that means it will last forever. THe conflict between the Horde and Alliance is at the core of "World of Warcraft"(Notice I didn't say just Warcraft). Even during a time of peace there will be unease. Blizzard is remaining true to that.

That cuts both ways. So long as the factions are openly communicating and upholding a status quo of cooperation, however uneasy, nothing is stopping adventurers from working together in the name of getting results, especially with the apocalyptic scale of the past several threats faced.

They still aren't as powerful as the leaders. Any leader could smite you in seconds.

Are you really going to say Anduin or Thrall are more powerful than N'Zoth, Archimonde, or any of the other raid bosses the adventurers have banded together and crushed? Because if you are, I'm going to call shenanigans and remind you that game mechanics and lore are more often than not at odds rather than cooperating.

Ever hear of the "enemy of my enemy is my friend". Fighting together to vanquish a powerful foe looking to destroy the world does not mean there can't be distrust and faction conflict at the same time. Faction conflict has ALWAYS been there and has ALWAYS been at the core.

Eventually, people who constantly form coalitions in the face of mutual extinction begin to form long-term alliances, especially when a pattern arises that clearly demonstrates regular attempts from outside forces to wipe both forces out. The fact that Blizzard insists that the factions are exhausting their reserves in every war but still somehow able to field enough troops to maintain their status as global superpowers is idiocy and the biggest indicator that the faction war subplot is a deeply-flawed one from which the story only suffers in the long run.

[Claymore]

My thinking is...

Treat players as "Adventurers". Not "members of the Horde/Alliance".

That may sound simple, but it honestly achieved the best of all worlds. The characters and factions can still exist, but they can have their conflicts outside of players. Hell, if anything they could supercharge those conflicts, having Tyrande and Genn Greymane threatening to abandon the Alliance and forming their own sort of side-faction, one more radical and hellbent on ending the Forsaken. Meanwhile, perhaps the Horde would begin questioning whether the Forsaken really deserve a place in their ranks, given their many failures to uphold honor, questioning if their values are even compatible with the rest of the Horde, and Blood Elves obviously stuck in the middle.

Like I said, I think it would just open up a lot more freedom, having players treated a little more like "mercenaries". You can still have your Faction-exclusive quest lines (after all, it's not like Anduin is going to choose a Zandalari as an emissary to Tyrande to try and get her back to the table), but it creates a little more believable world, I think, and also stops assuming players are just "mindless drones of the Horde/Alliance".

[Omedon]

I mean, you say that but 8.2.5's ending exists. BFA post-8.2.5 is pretty much as close as we're going to get in a post-Cataclysm world to a situation making cross-faction PvE possible. And frankly, I don't see why they haven't already considering adventurers canonically have a long history of putting nationalist chest-thumping aside to knuckle down and get shit done. Now with the current power structure of both the Alliance and Horde mostly down with a long-term deescalation of hostilities (barring Genn and Tyrande) the only thing preventing adventurers from working together in the Shadowlands, whose denizens almost assuredly could not care less if you're Red or Blue, is game mechanics and Blizzard's apparent unwillingness to put a firm, final end to the faction war subplot lest they need to retread this storyline an umpteenth time next time they run out of ideas.

I've been saying for all of BFA, and especially after 8.2.5: "It's now or never, and never feels crazy."

It still feels crazy, but if they don't do it now, they literally feel no pressure to do it at all. If BFA wasn't set up to tell us "faction war is dumb with ALL THIS going on in the background," then they literally feel no reason to ever enact faction mechanical change.

It's still crazy.

[Magnagarde]

Ah, a faction-fluid person.

[erifwodahs]

well, that character is crap. Level new one on alliance. You will have better geared character in 2 days

[dacoolist]

Look, I'm not even going to bother trying to state my case, because I know that this is a fundamental thing for most players, and I'm unlikely to change anyone's minds.

So instead, I'll just talk about how much I love my Orc Warrior, and I REALLY wish I could play him alongside my old friends and guildmates.

Seriously; just LOOK at this motherfucker!!!

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ch...edivh/drashuga

Unfortunately, I can't really justify playing him. All my friends are Alliance, the Horde is basically nonexistant on my server, and changing server just... I haven't had good experiences trying to socialize with other players in the past couple years (seriously, folks in this game are straight up MEAN these days!).

But man, if I could play that sexy beast, alongside my god-fearing Alliance buddies? That would be dope as hell.

For that matter, others might be similarly inclined to play Horde races, if it didn't mean abandoning our entire social circle (many of us have been guildies since Vanilla).

Like I said, though; I know I'm not going to convince anyone otherwise, and that's fine. But DAMN, do I wish it were an option!

The funny part: people always bring up but but butttt my PVP... yeah: it’s called MERC or you can STILL have faction pvp even if you team up for PVE. Think about it: in WW2 people teamed up for a cause to wipe out big packs of wolves and shit enemies working together for a common cause - THEN - went back to fighting each other.. it’s bound to happen as the game dies down

[Accendor]

So are we ignoring BFA post-8.1 to make this argument? In 8.1, 8.2, and 8.2.5, Horde adventurers had the option to disrupt Sylvanas's war effort from within by abetting the incipient rebellion, culminating in joining a small majority of Horde leadership in open rebellion against Sylvanas--in a coalition with the Alliance, no less, a coalition that persists as of 8.3 with Baine sent as an emissary to Anduin. The Alliance adventurer is aware of this, as Baine is present when you meet with Anduin shortly before Wrathion makes his grand entrance.

Blizzard left complicity up to the player. Saurfang-aligned players were double agents, and double agents do dirty shit to keep their cover all the time. 8.2.5 post-cinematic even shows many loyalists in Orgrimmar have either pledged their allegiance to the new council and renounced Sylvanas, or they've been arrested. Very resoundingly, the Horde did not lay everything at Sylvanas's feet. Baine and others were in open rebellion far longer than they were under Garrosh, and you can log on and zone into Orgrimmar now to find chain gangs of loyalists who wouldn't renounce Sylvanas being led off to serve their sentence as they share in her complicity.

Your claims ring hollow when you can log on right now and see evidence to the contrary. As yet, the coalition stands and there are active lines of communication between the Alliance and Horde council. Baine even flags as friendly to the Alliance adventurer while serving as the Horde's emissary! The faction war has all but ended, and the only thing preventing it from ending in full is Blizzard's unwillingness to advance the faction story. In the meantime, the current status quo is more than enough for results-oriented adventurers to be banding together, especially with their time serving together in the order halls and the more recent coalition put together by the Alliance and Horde rebels.

Again, just no. If you played the war of thorns, you are complicit of the burning. No matter you did in 8.1 and 8.2, you also did the stuff in 8.0.
Just because you realize "well, this is a bit over the top Sylvi" and make minimal efforts to stop her, does not redeem you in the eyes of somebody whose complete race has been annihalated by you.
My point is: The adventurers are not above the conflict at all and they never again can be.

- - - Updated - - -

That's a decision the story and quest writers made. If my character would have been able to choose, i'm sure he wouldn't have lifted a finger in all of that edgy shitshow Sylvanas was directing. So yes, the characters were complicit, but that's because they had no choice.

I know, many horde Players would have acted on that. I fully understand that there are a lot of people out there who would have acted given the choice. Thats why I tried to differentiate week player characters and players.

[froschhure]

wow could reboot completly remaking it to another time line where horde and alliance never start war.

[Elias01]

Yeah, faction barrier just hurts the game now.

No it really doesnt. Its actualy reason why this game is stilla alive. You just want to remove another RPG element for sake of covienience.

[rrayy]

That cuts both ways. So long as the factions are openly communicating and upholding a status quo of cooperation, however uneasy, nothing is stopping adventurers from working together in the name of getting results, especially with the apocalyptic scale of the past several threats faced.

YOu missed the point. THe claim was because there was a peace now, you can get rid of factions. No you can't because that peace is uneasy and not guaranteed. You don't get rid of WoW's core because they are currently holding an uneasy peace.

[matrix123mko]

No it doesn't. An uneasy peace does not = removal of factions.

Warchief was replaced by Anduin's puppet.

- - - Updated - - -

No it really doesnt. Its actualy reason why this game is stilla alive. You just want to remove another RPG element for sake of covienience.

It doesn't make the game alive.

[Musta]

I agree, but its never going to happen.

[rrayy]

Are you really going to say Anduin or Thrall are more powerful than N'Zoth, Archimonde, or any of the other raid bosses the adventurers have banded together and crushed? Because if you are, I'm going to call shenanigans and remind you that game mechanics and lore are more often than not at odds rather than cooperating.

You missed the point entirely again. You as a champion couldn't beat those forces by yourself either. Thrall is a lot more powerful than you. He will smite YOU in seconds regardless of the fact he would also need help to defeat those you mentioned.

Eventually, people who constantly form coalitions in the face of mutual extinction begin to form long-term alliances, especially when a pattern arises that clearly demonstrates regular attempts from outside forces to wipe both forces out. The fact that Blizzard insists that the factions are exhausting their reserves in every war but still somehow able to field enough troops to maintain their status as global superpowers is idiocy and the biggest indicator that the faction war subplot is a deeply-flawed one from which the story only suffers in the long run.

Not true at all. All you have to do is look at Israel vs Palestine.

You are aware that both factions can replenish their forces right? That is what the times of peace are for. The wars didn't happen immediately back to back to back. They replenish some in between each war.

- - - Updated - - -

Warchief was replaced by Anduin's puppet.

Wrong. Horde doesn't have a Warchief anymore. They have a council. They are the puppet of nobody.

[Eazy]

*yawn* Ok, whatever you say, Ion.
Can't wait to siege Orgrimmar again...

Seriously though, if Blizzard cannot make said conflict interesting in the first place and cannot make anything happen without factions banding together to fight common evil again and again and again and again and again AARRGHGHGHGHGHGHHG, then it just proves they are incapable of breaking out of the old mold.
You do realise that no matter what happens, it will ALWAYS end in status quo? One faction can never "win", due to playerbase. So what is the point of said "conflict"? It will always be stuck. The definition of insanity, remember?

PvP, communication through the /talk with other faction during bg/arena/warmode/world PvP.

Completely true. Remember how the Faction war has always remained completely intact and how we have never ever fought together against some larger foe?

Like how in lore the Alliance solo defeated; C'thun, the Lich King, Deathwing, Saurfang, Archimonde (Twice), Gul'dan, Kil'jaeden, Azshara, N'Zoth?

I'm super glad that the Alliance was here to fight alone against the Qiraji, the Scourge, The Twilight's Hammer Cult, Y'saarj, The Legion, and N'Zoth.

That argument was already used a few times before and proven as bad.

From the lore point of view both faction didn't participate in killing each boss, for example Alliance killed Lady Vashj, while Horde defeated Kael'thas.

Horde and Alliance will forever be enemies, their deeds/crimes cannot be forgotten by everyone(I'd even said the most).

[matrix123mko]

You missed the point entirely again. You as a champion couldn't beat those forces by yourself either. Thrall is a lot more powerful than you. He will smite YOU in seconds regardless of the fact he would also need help to defeat those you mentioned.

You haven't really followed the lore. Thrall is a mortal with no powers. Moreover, I am the Netherlord of the Black Harvest and I can defeat faction leaders.

Wrong. Horde doesn't have a Warchief anymore. They have a council. They are the puppet of nobody.

Yet Baine stands next to the throne pretending to be Garrosh.

[Doffen]

No it really doesnt. Its actualy reason why this game is stilla alive. You just want to remove another RPG element for sake of covienience.

Well for me and many others it seems it does. It's just silly at this point. It's actually a reason why people are leaving for other games where they can play whatever character they want and still play with their friends.

You just want to keep a rpg element for the sake of inconvenience. To just add on to that, whats more RPG than you having a tauren for instance and sympathize with the Alliance and want to join them? You are arguing against your own point.

[Thage]

YOu missed the point. THe claim was because there was a peace now, you can get rid of factions. No you can't because that peace is uneasy and not guaranteed. You don't get rid of WoW's core because they are currently holding an uneasy peace.

I never said 'get rid of factions.' I said, 'adventurers who care more about results than nationalism have been shown in canon as being willing to work together with the Order Halls, and with the current status quo, the only thing preventing this from being doable ingame is Blizzard's refusal to adapt the cross-faction PvP systems used for Mercenary Mode to cross-faction PvE between Alliance and Horde adventurers."

You missed the point entirely again. You as a champion couldn't beat those forces by yourself either. Thrall is a lot more powerful than you. He will smite YOU in seconds regardless of the fact he would also need help to defeat those you mentioned.

Your point is strange, then, because by this logic we should have lost against Arthas, Kil'Jaeden, Archimonde, N'Zoth, C'thun, Yogg-Saron, and countless other raid bosses. But we didn't, because the adventurers banded together to defeat those enemies. The faction leaders are no different, as evidenced with Garrosh, Mekkatorque, and Jaina.

Not true at all. All you have to do is look at Israel vs Palestine.

Israel and Palestine don't have the history of cooperation the Alliance and Horde do, or England and France do, or France and Germany do.

You are aware that both factions can replenish their forces right? That is what the times of peace are for. The wars didn't happen immediately back to back to back. They replenish some in between each war.

Nowhere near enough time for an entire generation to come of age has happened between any war since the breakdown of the post-Hyjal ceasefire in Classic, never mind between every war. Yet somehow, the story keeps insisting we find ways to pull new armies' worth of conscripts and volunteer soldiers out of thin air in order to maintain the illusion that the Alliance and Horde are global superpowers and not desperately clinging on to exhausted and overextended power structures--explicitly noting the lack of able-bodied soldiers to go around was a major plot point in Vanilla and the reason adventurers came in such high demand, as the Player Character was sent all over the place to help secure the territories immediately surrounding their racial capital due to what troops were available being sent off to foreign theaters and border clashes.

The main driving storyline in the four human territories of Elwynn, Westfall, Redridge, and Duskwood was that Prestor's machinations left them severely underdefended, and neither settlement could afford to send their militias to help the other. Yet somehow, immediately after the Burning Legion's defeat, which came on the heels of massive losses at the Broken Shore and, canonically, large-scale clashes with one another, the Alliance and Horde are able to field massive armies, and once again deplete themselves so badly that by the attack on Dazar'Alor, they're down to the last of the trained military personnel and civilian conscripts were next on the chopping block.

Yet, somehow, they'll magically have enough troops for the next war, despite the timeskips never being more than a year or two--nowhere near enough for an entire generation to come of age unless humans hit maturity at the time real-world humans are learning to shit on the big boy toilet.

Wrong. Horde doesn't have a Warchief anymore. They have a council. They are the puppet of nobody.

They have a council, the majority of whom are very well-disposed toward coalitions with the Alliance and the de facto speaker of whom, Baine Bloodhoof (as evidenced by both his status as the Horde emissary to Stormwind as well as apparently-unilateral authority to induct the vulpera) is a close personal friend to the Alliance's de facto leader, Anduin Wrynn (whom the member nations of the Alliance are by and large content to allow to direct their troops, barring those who've rallied behind Tyrande).

[Wylyth1992]

They aren't saying "a Horde player should be able to walk into Stormwind without be harassed (or vice versa for Orgrimmar)", they just want to be able to team up with people cross faction for PvE content. Why the hell is that a problem? Also, just because the name is "Warcraft" doesn't mean it has to focus on the Alliance and Horde conflict. Let it die.