How do you justify Shalandis Isle?

[Aurabolt]

that's the point; Tyrande sending her Sentinels to sabotage Quel'thalas made no sense

The beef between the BELFs and NELFs is definitely not one-sided historically though in more recent years, it's more personal for the BELFs. Thalyssra states in the Nightborne unlock chain the only reason she decided on the Horde over the Alliance is because she was put off by how overly cautious Tyrande was with her despite the fact the Nightborne (re)joining their Kaldorei kin would've been the obvious choice. Basically, Tyrande made a bad first impression and it cost the Alliance Suramar and The Nightborne.

As for the Night Elves in northwest Ghostlands. Lorewise, the BELFs joined the Horde before Kael split off from them. Tyrande probably knew by then that some of the BELFs went to Outland and were working with Illidan under Kael'Thas. Naturally, she also know the Scourge sacked Quel'Thalas by then and probably found it suspect the BELFs were more focused on their Magic Addiction at the time than rebuilding their half-destroyed kingdom. The Night Elves probably considered the Blood Elves to be "soft" targets compared to the much stronger Forsaken despite the fact Sylvanas Windrunner is originally from Quel'Thalas. They miscalculated and assumed even with help from the Horde, the Blood Elves would ultimately destroy themselves.

I like to think Lorewise, a mixed detachment of Blood Elves backed by the Forsaken routed the Night Elves in the Ghostlands. The attack plans found there, the Dwarf "Ambassador" you kill outside Silvermoon and the number of Night Elves--don't forget you also find some in Eversong--indicates the Alliance as a whole and not just the Night Elves were looking to establish a permanent foothold in the region. It makes sense the Blood Elves wouldn't be willing to tolerate the Night Elf presence in the Ghostlands after the scouts that were found in Eversong Woods. If the Night Elves were left alone for a bit longer, they probably would have had enough time to build a proper base similar in sophistication to Lunarfall on Draenor. That would have made them harder to remove and more so once the Night Elves got their siege weapons shipped in.

Hypothetically speaking, if said base was still standing when Varian returns for WOTLK he would've sent resources and manpower to reinforce it. Assuming it's still there for Cataclysm, the Blood Elves would be committing a lot of resources to taking it. With help from the Forsaken, they would probably rebuild and strengthen nearby outposts just to deal with the base. Alliance side, they would look to claim as much ground as they can to maintain the base. It's a hypothetical we may never know obviously.

If i'm not mistaken, Fandral was the Archdruid of the Night Elves until Malfurion returned, which gave him plenty political sway.

...This.

Fandral is revealed as a traitor in the novel Stormrage, which takes place between WOTLK and Cataclysm. It's revealed he used Mercenaries (us) to secretly bring him regeants (remember that repeatable quest from him?) to keep Malfurion in the Emerald Dream. He turned on the Alliance after his son was killed during the War of Shifting Sands which he was Co-Commander of alongside Varok Saurfang. Malfurion was the biggest threat to his interests so it makes sense he wouldn't want him to be woken up.

[Saltysquidoon]

This part is especially head-scratching. I'm currently playing a nelf in Classic, to have a detailed look at the Alliance side of the story (I've always mained Horde in retail), and lo and behold - there isn't even a single quest or NPC that tells you WTF are exactly nelfs doing in the Alliance in the first place. You have even those books scattered around the world, but I can't recall anything about how NEs were admitted in the Alliance.

The game only had two factions, vanilla devs wanted playable forsaken and night elves were blizzard's new hot shit at the time.

Given those facts what would you have done?

[Athredas]

Those Elves are connected to that one quest where you have to kill a Dwarf ambassador who is spying on BElves. They are doing reconnaisance for the Alliance. I thought it was pretty obvious from the quest texts.

[Maljinwo]

Fandral is revealed as a traitor in the novel Stormrage, which takes place between WOTLK and Cataclysm. It's revealed he used Mercenaries (us) to secretly bring him regeants (remember that repeatable quest from him?) to keep Malfurion in the Emerald Dream. He turned on the Alliance after his son was killed during the War of Shifting Sands which he was Co-Commander of alongside Varok Saurfang. Malfurion was the biggest threat to his interests so it makes sense he wouldn't want him to be woken up.

The war of the shifting sands took place 975 years before the First War

Saurfang commanded the Might of Kalimdor which happened 4 or 5 yearsafter the Third War

[Soon-TM]

The game only had two factions, vanilla devs wanted playable forsaken and night elves were blizzard's new hot shit at the time.

Given those facts what would you have done?

I would have made the playable NE just a guy/girl who decides to try his/her luck in far away lands, but in no way representative of the race as a whole. And your character should know, via questing, why is he/she adventuring far beyond NE lands.

Ditto for Forsaken, although something was hinted at Sylvanas sending representatives to SW, who were killed on sight. Once again, more info would have been great.

[Jastall]

And Kael'thas decided to join forces with the guy who masterminded his own people's genocide in the first place as only the first step of a plan to burn the entire world. Your point?

I'm struggling to see yours, given that Kael'thas being villain batted in such a way for the sake of making him a raid boss was one of the things that pretty much everyone found stupid in TBC, and still does today, yours truly very much included. Are you implying that two wrongs make a right?

[Ardenaso]

I'm struggling to see yours, given that Kael'thas being villain batted in such a way for the sake of making him a raid boss was one of the things that pretty much everyone found stupid in TBC, and still does today, yours truly very much included. Are you implying that two wrongs make a right?

@cparle87 to be fair Kael'thas probably didn't even know the Scourge was masterminded by the Burning Legion. Remember Tichondrius never made himself in the open in Warcraft 3

[Combatbutler]

@cparle87 to be fair Kael'thas probably didn't even know the Scourge was masterminded by the Burning Legion. Remember Tichondrius never made himself in the open in Warcraft 3

Illidan told him

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Illidan%27...(WC3_BloodElf)

[Ardenaso]

The beef between the BELFs and NELFs is definitely not one-sided historically though in more recent years, it's more personal for the BELFs. Thalyssra states in the Nightborne unlock chain the only reason she decided on the Horde over the Alliance is because she was put off by how overly cautious Tyrande was with her despite the fact the Nightborne (re)joining their Kaldorei kin would've been the obvious choice. Basically, Tyrande made a bad first impression and it cost the Alliance Suramar and The Nightborne.

As for the Night Elves in northwest Ghostlands. Lorewise, the BELFs joined the Horde before Kael split off from them. Tyrande probably knew by then that some of the BELFs went to Outland and were working with Illidan under Kael'Thas. Naturally, she also know the Scourge sacked Quel'Thalas by then and probably found it suspect the BELFs were more focused on their Magic Addiction at the time than rebuilding their half-destroyed kingdom. The Night Elves probably considered the Blood Elves to be "soft" targets compared to the much stronger Forsaken despite the fact Sylvanas Windrunner is originally from Quel'Thalas. They miscalculated and assumed even with help from the Horde, the Blood Elves would ultimately destroy themselves.

I like to think Lorewise, a mixed detachment of Blood Elves backed by the Forsaken routed the Night Elves in the Ghostlands. The attack plans found there, the Dwarf "Ambassador" you kill outside Silvermoon and the number of Night Elves--don't forget you also find some in Eversong--indicates the Alliance as a whole and not just the Night Elves were looking to establish a permanent foothold in the region. It makes sense the Blood Elves wouldn't be willing to tolerate the Night Elf presence in the Ghostlands after the scouts that were found in Eversong Woods. If the Night Elves were left alone for a bit longer, they probably would have had enough time to build a proper base similar in sophistication to Lunarfall on Draenor. That would have made them harder to remove and more so once the Night Elves got their siege weapons shipped in.

Hypothetically speaking, if said base was still standing when Varian returns for WOTLK he would've sent resources and manpower to reinforce it. Assuming it's still there for Cataclysm, the Blood Elves would be committing a lot of resources to taking it. With help from the Forsaken, they would probably rebuild and strengthen nearby outposts just to deal with the base. Alliance side, they would look to claim as much ground as they can to maintain the base. It's a hypothetical we may never know obviously.

your comment makes sense but I think the Blood Elves were a different scenario since they helped defeat Illidan and they helped saved her life

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Illidan told him

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Illidan%27...(WC3_BloodElf)

fuck I forgot this one and I am mistaken, it's really bad I now agree

[Aurabolt]

The war of the shifting sands took place 975 years before the First War

Saurfang commanded the Might of Kalimdor which happened 4 or 5 yearsafter the Third War

Daaaamn, I can't believe I mixed up the clearly different events. Regardless, Fandral seeing his son killed in front of him during the first War of the Shifting Sands was what broke him. He wasn't personally there for the second one which kinda makes sense. Tyrande should've paid attention when she learned of what happened after the first one though.

[Aurabolt]

your comment makes sense but I think the Blood Elves were a different scenario since they helped defeat Illidan and they helped saved her life

I think you mean Kael'thas helped Illidan defeat Magtheridon and take over the Black Temple. We know both Night Elves and Blood Elves left Azeroth to join Illidan as Illidari. Lorewise, the strongest members of the Illidari were sent offworld by Illidan just when it came under siege by the forces from Shattath City (Us). The Vanguard weren't gone for THAT long timewise but Illidan is dead and the rest of them are quickly captured by Maiev. when they return.

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Books are more canon than the game, so unless Blizzard says otherwise it something that happens to justify blood elves fighting Alliance in game but didn't really happen

WTF does that have to do with this discussion? Folks are specifically talking about in-game events only.

[cparle87]

I'm struggling to see yours, given that Kael'thas being villain batted in such a way for the sake of making him a raid boss was one of the things that pretty much everyone found stupid in TBC, and still does today, yours truly very much included. Are you implying that two wrongs make a right?

"so instead the proud kingdom of Quel'thalas made itself willing slaves to a bunch of savages in tents led by an absolute dictator who worships the guys who tried to invade their realm barely 20 years ago."

You find it odd that the blood elves joined the Horde when their own leader sided with the guy (Kil'jaeden) who masterminded not only the Orcish Horde but the destruction of Quel'thalas. One of the points I've seen is that one of the major differences between the Alliance and the Horde is that the former clings to old hatreds for a long time while the latter is capable of going "Yeah, you did some bad shit, but some of it wasn't your fault, and now you need help so we're here for you." Look at the Horde playable races. Virtually all of them pre-allied races were enemies at some point.

[Jastall]

"so instead the proud kingdom of Quel'thalas made itself willing slaves to a bunch of savages in tents led by an absolute dictator who worships the guys who tried to invade their realm barely 20 years ago."

You find it odd that the blood elves joined the Horde when their own leader sided with the guy (Kil'jaeden) who masterminded not only the Orcish Horde but the destruction of Quel'thalas. One of the points I've seen is that one of the major differences between the Alliance and the Horde is that the former clings to old hatreds for a long time while the latter is capable of going "Yeah, you did some bad shit, but some of it wasn't your fault, and now you need help so we're here for you." Look at the Horde playable races. Virtually all of them pre-allied races were enemies at some point.

Again, not sure why you mention Kael'thas given that he was basically made an insane one-note villain by Blizzard so we could loot him for purples, and probably the entire point of him showing up in Shadowlands is to rerail his character and/or retcon that shit away, like they did with TBC Illidan. For the time being he's not anywhere near a standard one should aspire to both in and out of universe.

And the Horde never clings to hatred? I guess Garrosh or the pre-Cata Forsaken did not exist, nor does the Alliance forgiving the Horde for their war atrocities twice in like, five years. That's really not what distinguishes the factions at all, and even if it were there's a pretty big difference between not giving in to hatred and deciding to join a Horde that is distant and ruled by a radically different race and culture, with all the others strings that come attached with it, when a few years ago Quel'thalas's commitment to the Alliance was quite a bit more aloof, and that was dealing with a far more immediate and existential threat. And of course all that says nothing of the fact that Garithos's attempt to execute tons of BEs for no real reason played a crucial role in said BEs distancing themselves from the Alliance- how about not being influenced by them hatreds again?

[cparle87]

Again, not sure why you mention Kael'thas given that he was basically made an insane one-note villain by Blizzard so we could loot him for purples, and probably the entire point of him showing up in Shadowlands is to rerail his character and/or retcon that shit away, like they did with TBC Illidan. For the time being he's not anywhere near a standard one should aspire to both in and out of universe.

And the Horde never clings to hatred? I guess Garrosh or the pre-Cata Forsaken did not exist, nor does the Alliance forgiving the Horde for their war atrocities twice in like, five years. That's really not what distinguishes the factions at all, and even if it were there's a pretty big difference between not giving in to hatred and deciding to join a Horde that is distant and ruled by a radically different race and culture, with all the others strings that come attached with it, when a few years ago Quel'thalas's commitment to the Alliance was quite a bit more aloof, and that was dealing with a far more immediate and existential threat. And of course all that says nothing of the fact that Garithos's attempt to execute tons of BEs for no real reason played a crucial role in said BEs distancing themselves from the Alliance- how about not being influenced by them hatreds again?

I'm bringing help Kael because you seem to think the orc's actions in the Second War should've precluded them from joining the Horde, when their own royalty sided with the guys who made the Horde bad in the first place.

The Alliance still blames the Horde for things the Legion did 30+ years ago and holds people who weren't even alive then response?

Blood elves to undead? "Hey, you were Scourge who wiped out our city, I recognize it's not your fault, we can work together."
Undead to blood elves? "Hey, you ditched our Alliance and we really could've used your help and you weren't there, but we can work together."
Blood elves to orcs? "Hey, you were corrupted by demons and attacked our kingdom, but you're better now and we can work together."

See where I'm going with this?

Also, that's pretty racist of you. This guy's culture is way different than mine I guess we can't get along? The point of the Horde is that it's many different kinds of cultures who CAN get along. The nightborne joined the Horde specifically because they knew the Horde would let them be themselves.

[Ardenaso]

Before the Storm states Night Elves never attacked Blood Elves, so the in game stuff can't be canon, just a gameplay mechanic to give the Blood Elf player a justification to fight Alliance and join Horde

the writers said they simply forgot about it

but also given that it's from Malfurion's quote; it also implies that there was never an official espionage to Shalandis and it was indeed Fandral who sent them

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Before the Storm states Night Elves never attacked Blood Elves, so the in game stuff can't be canon, just a gameplay mechanic to give the Blood Elf player a justification to fight Alliance and join Horde

the writers said they simply forgot about it

but also given that it's from Malfurion's quote; it also implies that there was never an official espionage to Shalandis and it was indeed Fandral who sent them

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I think you mean Kael'thas helped Illidan defeat Magtheridon and take over the Black Temple. We know both Night Elves and Blood Elves left Azeroth to join Illidan as Illidari. Lorewise, the strongest members of the Illidari were sent offworld by Illidan just when it came under siege by the forces from Shattath City (Us). The Vanguard weren't gone for THAT long timewise but Illidan is dead and the rest of them are quickly captured by Maiev. when they return.

was there any Night Elf that was spared before that? I don't think there would be anyone to return to Darnassus/Nighthaven to tell everything to Tyrande

[Hellspawn]

Also, that's pretty racist of you. This guy's culture is way different than mine I guess we can't get along? The point of the Horde is that it's many different kinds of cultures who CAN get along. The nightborne joined the Horde specifically because they knew the Horde would let them be themselves.

So void elfs can be themselves in the Alliance but the nightborne couldn't?

[Mardux]

Sorry, I thought this was a legitimate lore discussion thread. But it's just a Blizzard bashing circlejerk. I'll show myself out.

Welcome to the mmoc forums.

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So void elfs can be themselves in the Alliance but the nightborne couldn't?

From an alliance PoV, yes.

[Jastall]

I'm bringing help Kael because you seem to think the orc's actions in the Second War should've precluded them from joining the Horde, when their own royalty sided with the guys who made the Horde bad in the first place.

The Alliance still blames the Horde for things the Legion did 30+ years ago and holds people who weren't even alive then response?

Blood elves to undead? "Hey, you were Scourge who wiped out our city, I recognize it's not your fault, we can work together."
Undead to blood elves? "Hey, you ditched our Alliance and we really could've used your help and you weren't there, but we can work together."
Blood elves to orcs? "Hey, you were corrupted by demons and attacked our kingdom, but you're better now and we can work together."

See where I'm going with this?

Also, that's pretty racist of you. This guy's culture is way different than mine I guess we can't get along? The point of the Horde is that it's many different kinds of cultures who CAN get along. The nightborne joined the Horde specifically because they knew the Horde would let them be themselves.

The Alliance is totally fine with having Lightforged Draenei and Void Elves, two races from opposite cosmic forces, in the same room. They recruit the DI Dwarves despite them having a very, very checkered history with the Wildhammer and Bronzebeard clans dating back centuries. The entire story of Jaina in BFA is about forgiveness, of her mother, her father, of Baine, of Thrall and the rest of the Horde. Anduin went out of his way to try and reunite the Forsaken with living humans in BTS. Varian was in talks with Lor'themar to have the BEs jump ship before the Divine Bell incident. At the end of the Fourth War, literally the only Alliance characters who aren't OK with pretending the Horde itself, not just Sylvanas, didn't gratuitously explode one of their major cities are Tyrande and Genn, the latter only making a token protest and the former still mostly blaming Sylvanas.

You're navigating in the realm of fanfiction. The Horde isn't much more tolerant or forgiving than the Alliance in actual practice. You might have had a point in the past, but now the Alliance has been so whitewashed that any difference on that front is completely negligible.

And how is that racist? Have you forgotten how the Horde worked, at least in theory, before the end of BFA? It's an absolute dictatorship. You do what the Warchief tells you, or he's legally entitled to chop your head off then and there, and your only recourse is to chop his head off in a duel instead. And the Blood Elves just decided to submit to his authority, instead of proving far more prudent as they were in the past and being allies rather than servants. Thrall not being the kind of guy to enforce such a rule doesn't mean the rule did not exist, even if that aspect of the Horde was kinda sorta inserted in Wrath later on. I could say the exact same for the Nightborne, whose story is almost a 1:1 mirror of the BEs with an even more asinine reason to join the Horde.

[Hellspawn]

From an alliance PoV, yes.

No they just can regardless from what perspective.

[Trumpcat]

The part where they abandoned their centuries old allies to join their former murderers and effectively become an enemy usually justifies espionage and sabotage.