How do you justify Shalandis Isle?

[Razion]

My personal impression of events:

After leaving the Ruins of Silvermoon in Eversong Woods and defeating the Darnassian Scout, it's implied heavily that the Alliance was keeping tabs on them if not outright trying to sabotage their Arcane Sanctums and double-cross them on the premise of trying to look good, keeping up appearances, or lying through their teeth while doing so. It comes across as the Alliance being very petty and abusive, especially as at this point in BC questing it seemed like the Blood Elves hadn't completely put their lot in with the Horde and would only do so when they later ally with the Forsaken in Tranquillien, Ghostlands when the apothecary helps one of your out-runners - something you kind of eventually learn, is that Blood Elves were always just trying to get to Outland to reach Kael'thas before they realize his deception and betrayal. So, it really sinks in the feeling when you're in the Ghostlands that the Forsaken are the only real allies you have and the only other people who understand the pain the Blood Elves went through after the Scourge invasion.

(The Blood Elves have been hungry for all sorts of power ((and especially during BC, crystallized power, such like the Naaru ships that the Draenei arrive in and M'uru they drained power from was always the visual theme)), so events like them sending spies to Azuremyst always seemed pretty par for the course because of course gigantic crystal ships brimming with so much power it contaminated the wildlife there. Also, side-bar, the draenei were really quick to be able to artificially create immunity to the disease spread by the radiation of the crash and if the Draenei are this good at stopping disease they would've been really good advisors when it comes to the Gnomeregan fallout and even Plaguelands corruption, but that's not what the topic is about.)

Anyway, before you get to Shalandis Isle, it's a case up to this point of just one spy and Prospector Anvilward - one of which is hostile, outright trying to kill you on being discovered, but sure you may think that could just be his orders, kill anyone if you're discovered and get out of there, they're spies it's probably their job to maintain secrecy because them trying to spy and letting that get out would probably result in accusations that could lead to war (if not war against the Alliance, civil war of Blood Elves against maybe the Regent Lord or Farstriders who could have been said to allow spies this close to the capital which the quest straight up tells us about when dealing with Prospector Anvilward). With Prospector Anvilward, he also attacks and will try to kill the player upon being accused. But until this point these were just two people probably just following strict orders which were probably on some kind of pretense to prevent all-out war. But by the time you get to the Ghostlands, it's true that Prospector Anvilward wasn't killed in the open, but his sudden disappearance or lack of correspondence may have been discovered and perhaps more easily revealed or indicated with the Darnassian Scout's sudden disappearance or lack of correspondence and death which certainly wasn't hidden as well - you sure as heck don't go back to clean up the Night Elf corpse you just leave out in the middle of the woods. And especially considering there could have been scrying going on, maybe word reached that both the Darnassian Scout and Prospector Anvilward have been revealed and killed, which instead of capturing them may have been considered an act of war.

Even though it's presented to the player very clearly that the Blood Elves had good intentions and were defending themselves, the situation probably would not have been viewed this way by the Alliance. To the Alliance, two of your scouts and spies have been killed - one of which was there on the pretense of being an envoy, so while you may not know how the situation had unfolded, you do know at least that the Blood Elves aren't tolerating spies in their midst but at least your spies could get that close without being discovered and so far war hadn't broken out yet as a result of these two, so maybe they figure that a more removed or armed operation would succeed. As the Blood Elf player, whatever talks about the death of Prospector Anvilward and the Darnassian Scout are either non-existent or not made known to the player in any obvious fashion at this time so every encounter you've had with the Alliance so far has been them basically trying to spy on you, and then killing you when they're discovered, so it's no wonder then when they've put up camp on some island and have a couple outposts with scrying moon crystals all set up to spy on you even more - the Alliance clearly doesn't trust Blood Elves, probably a result of them wielding Arcane magic - which they didn't take kindly to at the time, and also they were draining M'uru in the basement of Silvermoon, which if the Alliance had been doing good spy work until this point, their recent sating of the hunger may have been something that would have been noted which may have been why the Darnassian Scout and Prospector Anvilward were even investigating the Arcane Sanctums in the first place.

The Alliance also having remnants of the key that was used by the traitor Dar'khan to take down the gate which was the only thing protecting your people from the Scourge also doesn't really bode well. The Alliance may have just been keeping the key in-case whatever new power the Blood Elves had ended up resulting in disaster that their people were used to with arcane trifling in the past such as with the Well of Eternity calling the Legion. And in truth, they would have had to have gotten the remnants of the key knowing of Dar'Khan's betrayal and possibly even his void research which also would have been taboo at the time (which eventually lead to the creation of the Void Elves). It may play a part in why the Alliance is so willing to work with the Void Elves, because of these situations with the Blood Elves they may now know with the M'uru's willingness to let itself be drained being revealed by Liadrin when she openly spoke to A'dal in Shattrath City - which was also foretold by Velen, that the Blood Elves would be redeemed and taken down a path to not join the Legion but fight against it as part of the Shattered Sun because of M'uru's noble sacrifice.

[cparle87]

So void elfs can be themselves in the Alliance but the nightborne couldn't?

Tyrande already made her opinions on the nightborne known during the Suramar questing line. She would've demanded the nightborne comply.

[Mayia]

Not the act itself but the writing and motivations behind it.

The questline really didn't make sense to me as why the hell would Tyrande send in her Sentinels to raid Quel'thalas when the High Elves helped defend Mount Hyjal, and the Blood Elves helped Maiev and Malfurion to stop Illidan, and then give intel to Malfurion and Illidan to save Tyrande. Tyrande and Malfurion would be very grateful to the Blood Elves and I don't see them having a reason to naenae them.

I can only think of three ways that can justify them:

1. It was a response investigation due to the Blood Elves harassing the Draenei in Azuremyst (but of course they aren't omnipotent)
2. It was Fandral who sent the Night Elves and they shared his Kaldorei supremacist views
3. They acted on their own
4. Probably all of the above

But none of them are canon. The Blood Elves were still willing to work with the Alliance even after Garithos died but this event was the one that blew it all up

Its understandable you'd wanna spy on "allies you haven't heard from in a while" but we can assume the bloodelves are horde when the spys land? i dunno, honestly as others have said and you guess its more blizzard writes a way for it to make sense and a lot of the time the sense part of equation is left out.

[Hellspawn]

Tyrande already made her opinions on the nightborne known during the Suramar questing line. She would've demanded the nightborne comply.

No thats not the reason. I think its more about that the blood elf seemed more like an ally to them. Any race in the Alliance can be the way they want to.

[cparle87]

The Alliance is totally fine with having Lightforged Draenei and Void Elves, two races from opposite cosmic forces, in the same room. They recruit the DI Dwarves despite them having a very, very checkered history with the Wildhammer and Bronzebeard clans dating back centuries. The entire story of Jaina in BFA is about forgiveness, of her mother, her father, of Baine, of Thrall and the rest of the Horde. Anduin went out of his way to try and reunite the Forsaken with living humans in BTS. Varian was in talks with Lor'themar to have the BEs jump ship before the Divine Bell incident. At the end of the Fourth War, literally the only Alliance characters who aren't OK with pretending the Horde itself, not just Sylvanas, didn't gratuitously explode one of their major cities are Tyrande and Genn, the latter only making a token protest and the former still mostly blaming Sylvanas.

You're navigating in the realm of fanfiction. The Horde isn't much more tolerant or forgiving than the Alliance in actual practice. You might have had a point in the past, but now the Alliance has been so whitewashed that any difference on that front is completely negligible.

And how is that racist? Have you forgotten how the Horde worked, at least in theory, before the end of BFA? It's an absolute dictatorship. You do what the Warchief tells you, or he's legally entitled to chop your head off then and there, and your only recourse is to chop his head off in a duel instead. And the Blood Elves just decided to submit to his authority, instead of proving far more prudent as they were in the past and being allies rather than servants. Thrall not being the kind of guy to enforce such a rule doesn't mean the rule did not exist, even if that aspect of the Horde was kinda sorta inserted in Wrath later on. I could say the exact same for the Nightborne, whose story is almost a 1:1 mirror of the BEs with an even more asinine reason to join the Horde.

And Stormwind is a hereditary monarchy. Gilneas is a hereditary monarchy. Ironforge was a hereditary monarchy. Night elves and draenei are theocratic dictatorships. The only Alliance leader to be democratically elected is Gelbin, who I see as kind of a FDR character. If he goes the gnomes might put term limits on their grand tinker.

I was calling you racist because you said that the blood elves shouldn't have joined the Horde because they were too different, also forgetting that Silvermoon is also a hereditary monarchy with a current regent willing to mind control his own people to spew propoganda.

As for the nightborne, being told that your entire way of life is wrong by Tyrande and joining the Horde because they won't demand you fall in line with them is asinine? Tyrande's holier than thou attitude is well documented. Remember how he treated Velen when he likened Tyrande's communion with Elune to ways he communed with powerful naaru and she told him to keep his mouth shut around her faithful?

[Soon-TM]

And Stormwind is a hereditary monarchy. Gilneas is a hereditary monarchy. Ironforge was a hereditary monarchy. Night elves and draenei are theocratic dictatorships. The only Alliance leader to be democratically elected is Gelbin, who I see as kind of a FDR character.

Pretty much this. And in the case of Ironforge, it still is a hereditary monarchy, but with a vacant throne. Hence the ruling council, and Moira's hope to eventually see her boi ascend to kingship.

[Jastall]

And Stormwind is a hereditary monarchy. Gilneas is a hereditary monarchy. Ironforge was a hereditary monarchy. Night elves and draenei are theocratic dictatorships. The only Alliance leader to be democratically elected is Gelbin, who I see as kind of a FDR character. If he goes the gnomes might put term limits on their grand tinker.

I was calling you racist because you said that the blood elves shouldn't have joined the Horde because they were too different, also forgetting that Silvermoon is also a hereditary monarchy with a current regent willing to mind control his own people to spew propoganda.

As for the nightborne, being told that your entire way of life is wrong by Tyrande and joining the Horde because they won't demand you fall in line with them is asinine? Tyrande's holier than thou attitude is well documented. Remember how he treated Velen when he likened Tyrande's communion with Elune to ways he communed with powerful naaru and she told him to keep his mouth shut around her faithful?

Anyone who throws away their independence and shackles their fate to an unknown quantity because someone else called them names, especially right after the Nightborne had to fight for their independence from the Legion, is a total moron. There's not much else to add to that as far as they're concerned. And Thalyssra up until that point hadn't been portrayed as the kind of rash idiot who would make such a decision. Hence me saying the reason is completely asinine and exists for gameplay purposes, not lore.

The governments being authoritarian doesn't mean the cultures are the same, unless one wishes to argue that an European king and a mongol Khan rule the exact same sort of civilization in the exact same way. I won't waste too much time expounding on that point, but that's a barely surface level argument. But crucially, Alliance leaders aren't beholden to the High King (even if in practice their mostly follow him because of bad writing). Whereas everyone in the Horde, racial leaders included, ideally must ask how high when the Warchief says jump on pain of death. Joining the Horde implies a complete surrender of autonomy that is far, far too easily accepted by races that otherwise go to war to preserve said autonomy.

I think the one reason I really like Talanji is because she's the only racial leader to have a minimum of political savvy, pride and desire for independence, hence her allying herself with the Horde rather than surrendering her authority to a Warchief she knows little and less about on a whim, unlike everyone else just begging to join the blue/red blob.

[cparle87]

No thats not the reason. I think its more about that the blood elf seemed more like an ally to them. Any race in the Alliance can be the way they want to.

Thalyssra straight out says it. The Horde would allow them to join without making them give up who they are, the Alliance prodded by the night elves would.

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Anyone who throws away their independence and shackles their fate to an unknown quantity because someone else called them names, especially right after the Nightborne had to fight for their independence from the Legion, is a total moron. There's not much else to add to that as far as they're concerned. And Thalyssra up until that point hadn't been portrayed as the kind of rash idiot who would make such a decision. Hence me saying the reason is completely asinine and exists for gameplay purposes, not lore.

You really have a talent for taking an idea, boiling it down to its lowest common denominator, dumbing it down even further, and then trying to pass off your caricature as the real thing. The Horde weren't an unknown quantity by that time, it wasn't "just because they were called names" and they weren't fighting the Legion for independence, but survival. The question was who would allow the Nightborne to be themselves and not demand they conform. Hint, it's not the blue guys.

[Jastall]

Thalyssra straight out says it. The Horde would allow them to join without making them give up who they are, the Alliance prodded by the night elves would.

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You really have a talent for taking an idea, boiling it down to its lowest common denominator, dumbing it down even further, and then trying to pass off your caricature as the real thing. The Horde weren't an unknown quantity by that time, it wasn't "just because they were called names" and they weren't fighting the Legion for independence, but survival. The question was who would allow the Nightborne to be themselves and not demand they conform. Hint, it's not the blue guys.

But one, that reason is not corroborated by actual events, and most importantly two, that leaves out the option of, ya know, not actually joining either of them, or coming to an arrangement that doesn't involve bending the knee to the Warchief. This is not a dichotomy as neither faction made pressures to have the Nightborne join, Thalyssra did it on her own accord more or less purely because she disliked Tyrande but then liked Liadrin (who was highly biased at best, spewed BS at worst) and Lor'themar. That shouldn't be the only determining factors to such an important decision after 10 000 years of Suramar being its own power, but we needed an Allied Race so there she went.

Also, since it seems that point doesn't come across, races being more friendly towards the Horde than the Alliance makes total sense. Forsaken should like the Horde that gives them a chance more than the Alliance that gave them the cold shoulder at the very best of times back in vanilla. BEs should like the Forsaken that helped them more than the humans that gave them shit. Nightborne should like the BEs who supported them over Tyrande who gave them lip for no reason. My issue is when they go from there to swearing fealty to the Horde which is a massive commitment, as both races immediately found to their sorrow in Wrath and BFA respectively, without much in the way of forethought beyond "we likes these guys, thus we're OK with serving them now". It just feels far too... I dunno, gamey and removes some of the world's diversity when half the planet is under one banner or another; obviously the Allied Races exacerbated this.

[Ardenaso]

Its understandable you'd wanna spy on "allies you haven't heard from in a while" but we can assume the bloodelves are horde when the spys land? i dunno, honestly as others have said and you guess its more blizzard writes a way for it to make sense and a lot of the time the sense part of equation is left out.

they were also sabotaging the crystals the Blood Elves badly needed

[bowlink]

People forget that azeroth sorta had a floating timeline back in TBC. And shaladis isle isn't canonised in chronicle. The alliance didn't start to be the "bastion" of goodie godies untill Varian returned in Wrath. Which may mean: and this is me specualating so take this with a grain of salt. Onyxia is still in power controling the alliance.

So question becomes then is this an alliance specop or a nelf one. Remember nelves still banned arcane magic in TBC so may not be as fond on blood elves once the learned they were distancedly related to them

Another option is Shaw being overzealos

To be honest im ok with alll tree options.
Would love if the devs wrote the alliance in some darker colours.

P.S. @Razion could you stop reffering to ghostlands as duskwood very annoying

[Vaedan]

Thalyssra straight out says it. The Horde would allow them to join without making them give up who they are, the Alliance prodded by the night elves would.

Tyrande speaked her concerns towards Thalyssra getting power-hungry and eventually going the same route as Azshara did. She also remembered that those Nightborne abandoned Kaldorei Resistance 10 thousad years ago to hide under the shield, letting Resistance on their own. Actually, you can't blame Tyrande for not being friendly towards people who abandoned her in the past, and rejoined the world as vassals of the Legion. On the other hands, Thalyssra proved to be petty to join Horde only because of this.

Also, nothing suggests that the Alliance would force them to abandon their way of lives. Night elves already let Highborne coexist within their ranks and all other nations of the Alliance clearly have no problems with magic at all. When the freedom is your criteria, then I think joining the faction in which you have to swear the blood oath, forcing you to do bidding of a single leader without option to question him is not what you truly want.

[Combatbutler]

Tyrande speaked her concerns towards Thalyssra getting power-hungry and eventually going the same route as Azshara did. She also remembered that those Nightborne abandoned Kaldorei Resistance 10 thousad years ago to hide under the shield, letting Resistance on their own. Actually, you can't blame Tyrande for not being friendly towards people who abandoned her in the past, and rejoined the world as vassals of the Legion. On the other hands, Thalyssra proved to be petty to join Horde only because of this.

The nightborne saved the resistance, before going under that shield, by sealing the second legion portal, so in essence Tyrande went in there calling the current nightborne resistance leader, the worst possible insult you can give any elven leader, being likened to Azshara and entirely ignoring that the elves in that city had saved her life.

In essence Tyrande screwed up diplomacy, which isn't that surprising she always sucked at it.

[cparle87]

Tyrande speaked her concerns towards Thalyssra getting power-hungry and eventually going the same route as Azshara did. She also remembered that those Nightborne abandoned Kaldorei Resistance 10 thousad years ago to hide under the shield, letting Resistance on their own. Actually, you can't blame Tyrande for not being friendly towards people who abandoned her in the past, and rejoined the world as vassals of the Legion. On the other hands, Thalyssra proved to be petty to join Horde only because of this.

Also, nothing suggests that the Alliance would force them to abandon their way of lives. Night elves already let Highborne coexist within their ranks and all other nations of the Alliance clearly have no problems with magic at all. When the freedom is your criteria, then I think joining the faction in which you have to swear the blood oath, forcing you to do bidding of a single leader without option to question him is not what you truly want.

Was gonna rebut you but CombatButler beat me to it.

[Vaedan]

The nightborne saved the resistance, before going under that shield, by sealing the second legion portal, so in essence Tyrande went in there calling the current nightborne resistance leader, the worst possible insult you can give any elven leader, being likened to Azshara and entirely ignoring that the elves in that city had saved her life.

In essence Tyrande screwed up diplomacy, which isn't that surprising she always sucked at it.

Well, they did their contribution, but since they decided to abandon the resistance before the Invasion was over, they acted as cowards and they commited a desertion, which is usually regarded as betrayal. Now, let's imagine that in the last war, Nightborne decided to isolate themselves in the protective shield and let the Horde fight their war with the Alliance alone. The moment they do it Horde lose amount of troops which they most likely planned to use at some battle soon, considerably weakening them in the process. Horde eventually manages to drive Alliance from their lands, with the great cost of many casualties and their lands being torn. Years later, those Nightborne leave the shield and part of them will maintain peace talks with the Alliance in order to prevent the city to be destroyed by them and helped them to establish great portal in close proximity to Horde territory, starting new war. Now, how do you think Horde would regard these elves? Would you be friendly towards them. Would you care that they won a battle or two? I don't think so. It is relatable why Tyrande expressed her concerns, given their history and the context of the situation. In her eyes, nightborne proved to be cowards, traitors and the fact that majority of them allied with the Legion and allowed their invasion to Azeroth. Sure, Tyrande is terrible diplomat, because she always says what's on her mind and does not really think about consequences. What also Tyrande did was that she fought personally to liberate Suramar and contributed with her troops to do so.

I agree that Tyrande should sometimes just keep her mounth shut.

[Aurabolt]

Before the Storm states Night Elves never attacked Blood Elves, so the in game stuff can't be canon, just a gameplay mechanic to give the Blood Elf player a justification to fight Alliance and join Horde

By that point Silvermoon had already joined the Horde first of all. Sylvanas personally vouched for the Blood Elves and given it's her homeland, that also makes quite a bit of sense for her to have a personal interest. The Blood Elves were definitely feeling spiteful toward the Alliance for abandoning them after the Scourge sacked their homeland and basically left them to fend for themselves. That's reason enough. More recently, Lorthe'mar has shown a willingness to work with Jaina to deal with mutual threats but he has made it no secret he doesn't like how "Holier than thou" the Alliance likes to present themselves as sometimes. So, yes the Blood Elves have their own reasons for disliking the Alliance unrelated to the Night Elves.

[Ardenaso]

More recently, Lorthe'mar has shown a willingness to work with Jaina to deal with mutual threats but he has made it no secret he doesn't like how "Holier than thou" the Alliance likes to present themselves as sometimes. So, yes the Blood Elves have their own reasons for disliking the Alliance unrelated to the Night Elves.

fair enough, I think this one can say that Shalandis didn't bring the Blood Elves to the Horde after all

[Aurabolt]

It is relatable why Tyrande expressed her concerns, given their history and the context of the situation. In her eyes, nightborne proved to be cowards, traitors and the fact that majority of them allied with the Legion and allowed their invasion to Azeroth. Sure, Tyrande is terrible diplomat, because she always says what's on her mind and does not really think about consequences. What also Tyrande did was that she fought personally to liberate Suramar and contributed with her troops to do so.

I agree that Tyrande should sometimes just keep her mounth shut.

Tyrande clearly knew by then that Thalyssra was not the same as Elisande and not only opposed the latter's actions but was nearly killed by her own people for opposing Elisande. Tyrande probably thought Thalyssra would speak with her again at a later time but as we know, one meeting was all she needed to rule out joining the Alliance. You often only get one chance to make an impression and...yeah.

Lorewise, it could have gone either way. The Nightborne chose the Horde because they can relate to what the Blood Elves went through in the past. Naturally, they are technically still Kaldorei as well. If not for Tyrande not chosing her words more carefully....well, who knows.