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  1. #121
    I personally enjoy having some solo way to grind small power gains (like farming for gems now) as long as it isn't completely miserable. It gives you something to do in small bursts if you have 30 min to play, and frankly it helps separate the wheat from the chaff a bit for effort.

    (Doing all dailies in Naj and Mech for flying? That was the worst by far.)

  2. #122
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    Sounds like a lot of people want WoD but everyone apparently hated WoD.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Sounds like a lot of people want WoD but everyone apparently hated WoD.
    I want the game to have as much content as possible for as many people as possible to enjoy - I just don't see why so much player power needs to be locked behind it. If someone wants to play other games outside of raid time then I feel WoW should go back to respecting that a bit more. As someone who enjoys pet battling, dungeons, & achievement farming, I'm definitely in the "give me as much good content as possible" crowd, but I've too often in my few months back playing BfA found myself doing tedious content for power gains instead of doing the content I'd actually enjoy doing.
    Last edited by Toybox; 2020-07-28 at 08:42 PM.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    Otherwise I'd only do the content that I enjoy, which is M+ dungeons and raids.
    This is the ideal world I speak of, how the game used to be played. Level to max, do dungeons for gear and then start raiding gg, no extra shit. Maybe some dailies for something from a rep vendor but that's it.

    I'm of course not advocating for the removal of M+, that's a solid system imo.
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  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Drusin View Post
    This is the ideal world I speak of, how the game used to be played. Level to max, do dungeons for gear and then start raiding gg, no extra shit. Maybe some dailies for something from a rep vendor but that's it.
    I think legion got it pretty much right. BFA was way worse in comparison, I basically stopped playing when they introduced essences, screw doing that on all my characters.

    I should be able to get everything my character needs for dungeons and raids, from doing dungeons and raid. I shouldn't need to PvP or do Island expeditions or a 4 week world quest chain to be able to do dungeons or raids.

    Blizzard needs to remember that most people are not interested in every single game feature.
    Last edited by ydraw; 2020-07-28 at 09:24 PM.

  6. #126
    I enjoy being able to increase player power outside of raids, since raids are limited to once per week and I want to play a lot more.

  7. #127
    As it stands right now, I'd probably do what I do at the end of an expansion: whatever I feel like that day! Some days I just want to raid, other days I'll do some M+, other times I'll queue random heroic with the CTA to get some compensation while giving away my gear to people that need it, some days I'll go around with WM on to 'regulate' and protect the community from the evils that are <insert opposite faction based upon what I'm playing>, some days I just want to chill out on islands and murder everything, some days I want to try soloing old content or current expansion content that's not necessarily soloable. Then if I'm really bored I try to work on some WoD achievements I never finished that were... not my cup of tea. Don't forget going for some missed xmog or mounts/pets.

    I don't like instanced PvP much at all beyond random BGs and RBGs, never liked arenas after TBC with all the constant tuning, resilience/PvP power passed, etc. I'll probably never do arenas again unless it feels mandatory for my PvE progression path (or my super casual PvP funtime).

    All in all, while I do love to raid, I do get tired of it. It's probably healthier for the game if the players don't feel like they're obligated to log in everyday else they're behind. "Absence makes the heart grow fonder," sometimes you need space so you're enjoyment factor goes up. You don't want to rely on only addictive or OCD behavior to keep your player base engaged, that's not healthy for anyone.
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    ― Alexis de Tocqueville

  8. #128
    All I've really done all expansion other than just collecting cosmetics is raid log. Haven't done any M+, very few islands, never bothered gathering the majority of essences. It's just too much to do, and there are other things I'm interested in.

  9. #129
    mythic plus and arenas are good content, just as good as raiding in fact, everything else is just grind timesink

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Sounds like a lot of people want WoD but everyone apparently hated WoD.
    Cause raiding in WoD was pretty good.
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  11. #131
    I would not have played arenas and would have run fewer islands. Everything else I've done in BFA was because I enjoyed it or wanted something from it; essences that required islands and rated PvP were the only things that really made me play things I would normally not have.

  12. #132
    I would probably see the story, i.e. do war campaign and stuff. I would focus more on farming achievements, mounts, toys etc. that I barely had time to do due to all the mandatory commitments. I would probably play my alts and casually raid / m+ on some of them just for the fun of it as I did in any other expac, but in bfa I saw a wall of "get azerite traits / essences / cloak upgrades / corruptions" and I generally shelved all the alts. I would probably finish levelling my allied races which I left on the backburner because I got so tired of the game.

    I would definitely not do islands / warfronts / warmode / any form of pvp and vast majority of grinds that felt repulsive and forced (pearl grind in 8.2, dailies for coalescing visions in 8.3 etc.) I miss WOW how it was from wotlk until mop / wod. Borrowed power, great pruning and grindy like vanilla is definitely not my cup of tea.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    WQ emissaries are the easiest source of gold so I would still do those to pay my sub.
    The equivalent $/hour you earn doing that is far below minimum wage. Talk about a bad job.
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  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Toybox View Post
    I want the game to have as much content as possible for as many people as possible to enjoy - I just don't see why so much player power needs to be locked behind it. If someone wants to play other games outside of raid time then I feel WoW should go back to respecting that a bit more. As someone who enjoys pet battling, dungeons, & achievement farming, I'm definitely in the "give me as much good content as possible" crowd, but I've too often in my few months back playing BfA found myself doing tedious content for power gains instead of doing the content I'd actually enjoy doing.
    Honestly, it functions the way you want it for the majority of the playerbase, including most raiders. Players only suffer when they feel the need to grind ad nauseam to eek out increasingly tiny throughput increases. Corruptions exist in a bubble where grinding for them can result in massive power swings, but nothing else in this expansions provided that level of power for the grind (Azerite, essences, TF). I won't pretend that, across an entire Mythic raid group, that each individual eeking out and extra 1% throughput is nothing, but this is certainly only an issue for the truly top end Mythic raiders (or those who are more concerned with beating other guilds as opposed to beating the raid).

    I say this since, if your Mythic raid group is skilled enough for CE, you will get it regardless if you grind until your eyes bleed, or played a lot more relaxed. Mythic is designed around mechanics, and can be cleared with significantly less gear than most people are willing to accept. Look at the WF race and realize they are clearing raids with significantly less power/optimization than guilds clearing Mythic do months later. That's not to say they don't do everything they can to have the best advantages (again, corruptions skew this kind of heavily), but they're doing these things to be literally #1 in the world, not to just beat the raid.

    Most of the stuff that people extolled were "required GRINDS" in BfA really weren't for 95%+ of players. While there was some things that you needed to do on some sort of basis, none of it required excessive grinding. Especially AP, since the way AK worked in BFA, everything you did the previous week was effectively dumpstered by 33% unless you just hit the next level on your neck.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by themaster24 View Post
    Honestly, it functions the way you want it for the majority of the playerbase, including most raiders. Players only suffer when they feel the need to grind ad nauseam to eek out increasingly tiny throughput increases. Corruptions exist in a bubble where grinding for them can result in massive power swings, but nothing else in this expansions provided that level of power for the grind (Azerite, essences, TF). I won't pretend that, across an entire Mythic raid group, that each individual eeking out and extra 1% throughput is nothing, but this is certainly only an issue for the truly top end Mythic raiders (or those who are more concerned with beating other guilds as opposed to beating the raid).

    I say this since, if your Mythic raid group is skilled enough for CE, you will get it regardless if you grind until your eyes bleed, or played a lot more relaxed. Mythic is designed around mechanics, and can be cleared with significantly less gear than most people are willing to accept. Look at the WF race and realize they are clearing raids with significantly less power/optimization than guilds clearing Mythic do months later. That's not to say they don't do everything they can to have the best advantages (again, corruptions skew this kind of heavily), but they're doing these things to be literally #1 in the world, not to just beat the raid.

    Most of the stuff that people extolled were "required GRINDS" in BfA really weren't for 95%+ of players. While there was some things that you needed to do on some sort of basis, none of it required excessive grinding. Especially AP, since the way AK worked in BFA, everything you did the previous week was effectively dumpstered by 33% unless you just hit the next level on your neck.
    As an Arms Warrior, Lucid Dreams is double the DPS of its closest competitor, & triple the DPS of everything else. This is far more than just the optional grinding out of the extra 1%.



    Now getting Rank 3 Lucid Dreams itself wasn't that much of an issue at all for me personally, but the initial question wasn't asking what did you find tiresome/fine to do, but instead was simply asking "if nothing gave power, what would you go out of your way to do?" I've already acknowledged in multiple posts that I could've worded my intial post better, and I don't want to go back & change because it might confuse whoever decides to read the thread as a whole.

    Lucid Dreams is a pretty chill one to get all things considered, but there are some classes who need to do arena & BGs to get their ideal essences. I'm just wondering how much of that content people would choose to do if it didn't reward player power - the amount it rewards is kind of irrelevant (although like I said, I worded it poorly).

  16. #136
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    Name a single fun thing other than dungeon/raids/pvp in WoW that doesn't revolve literally 100% around the arbitrary reward it has based on whatever the current borrowed power is. I could handle dailies in the past, because they were largely optional but to me its an unplayable system these days that makes the entire game seem hollow and based round ONLY checklists, which lets be honest it really is because no one would do that "content" otherwise.

    I would skip all of it and only do pvp and raids
    LOL

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    I think we may be waiting a long time for that to happen. Maybe even forever.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Toybox View Post
    As an Arms Warrior, Lucid Dreams is double the DPS of its closest competitor, & triple the DPS of everything else. This is far more than just the optional grinding out of the extra 1%.



    Now getting Rank 3 Lucid Dreams itself wasn't that much of an issue at all for me personally, but the initial question wasn't asking what did you find tiresome/fine to do, but instead was simply asking "if nothing gave power, what would you go out of your way to do?" I've already acknowledged in multiple posts that I could've worded my intial post better, and I don't want to go back & change because it might confuse whoever decides to read the thread as a whole.

    Lucid Dreams is a pretty chill one to get all things considered, but there are some classes who need to do arena & BGs to get their ideal essences. I'm just wondering how much of that content people would choose to do if it didn't reward player power - the amount it rewards is kind of irrelevant (although like I said, I worded it poorly).
    *I was gonna argue about cherry picking and realities of grinding, but let's move on from that, as it won't contribute to the conversation at hand*

    If what you're trying to get at is, for example, would people who don't like pvp still pvp if their "best" source of something didn't function like it does now, then I think it's obvious most of them wouldn't. If M+ wasn't like the primary way to get Azerite armor and corruptions, as another example, I would have done significantly less M+ in BfA, similar to Legion where I maybe did it the first couple weeks of a major patch and then stopped. If you want to talk about taking power away from everything (or everything but raids), then Idk. I guess people would likely quit the game because a huge part of it is power progression lol.

    I understand the frustration. For some, they aren't content using the option that is slightly worse than their "best", so if that best thing comes from something they hate, they'll drag themselves through it anyway, because either they don't want to be judged for not using their best, or they personally can't stand it. However, often, many players don't care enough to put themselves through that, although I don't think it should ever be the case. For essences, as an example, I think the PvP ones should have be well and truly PvP focused, and the Raid ones raid focused. Dungeons are sort of a neutral ground to me, and beam could be obtained with the smallest of keys.

    There's definitely a better way to handle it besides how BfA did (and to a lesser degree Legion), and SL is looking to be that better way. However, I feel no sympathy for players who force themselves to grind for tiny power increases. If you choose that life (be it just personally doing it for yourself or because of the raid you've chosen to join), that's on you.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Toybox View Post
    I want the game to have as much content as possible for as many people as possible to enjoy - I just don't see why so much player power needs to be locked behind it. If someone wants to play other games outside of raid time then I feel WoW should go back to respecting that a bit more. As someone who enjoys pet battling, dungeons, & achievement farming, I'm definitely in the "give me as much good content as possible" crowd, but I've too often in my few months back playing BfA found myself doing tedious content for power gains instead of doing the content I'd actually enjoy doing.
    Because people's minds are binary. If something provides player power, they consider it mandatory. Look at all the rageposts about being "forced" to run "endless MoS" and "endless islands runs" for artifact power. Or being "forced" to run older raids for powerful trinkets like in Legion. On the other hand, if something does not provide player power, people declare it "meaningless" or even "not even content."
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    The equivalent $/hour you earn doing that is far below minimum wage. Talk about a bad job.
    Better than the job I don't have.

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Because people's minds are binary. If something provides player power, they consider it mandatory. Look at all the rageposts about being "forced" to run "endless MoS" and "endless islands runs" for artifact power. Or being "forced" to run older raids for powerful trinkets like in Legion. On the other hand, if something does not provide player power, people declare it "meaningless" or even "not even content."
    Content that only exists because of the carrot isn't good content to begin with, as if it were then people would play it regardless. The best example of the opposite I can probably give of this is high level M+ - No-one pushing high keys is going to get an upgrade from doing 2x's, but the reward is the playing of the content itself & not a shiny bauble at the end, which is why people in my guild often do dozens of keys past the weekly 15. There's no reward, but it's fun, & that's all it needs to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by themaster24 View Post
    *I was gonna argue about cherry picking and realities of grinding, but let's move on from that, as it won't contribute to the conversation at hand*

    If what you're trying to get at is, for example, would people who don't like pvp still pvp if their "best" source of something didn't function like it does now, then I think it's obvious most of them wouldn't. If M+ wasn't like the primary way to get Azerite armor and corruptions, as another example, I would have done significantly less M+ in BfA, similar to Legion where I maybe did it the first couple weeks of a major patch and then stopped. If you want to talk about taking power away from everything (or everything but raids), then Idk. I guess people would likely quit the game because a huge part of it is power progression lol.

    I understand the frustration. For some, they aren't content using the option that is slightly worse than their "best", so if that best thing comes from something they hate, they'll drag themselves through it anyway, because either they don't want to be judged for not using their best, or they personally can't stand it. However, often, many players don't care enough to put themselves through that, although I don't think it should ever be the case. For essences, as an example, I think the PvP ones should have be well and truly PvP focused, and the Raid ones raid focused. Dungeons are sort of a neutral ground to me, and beam could be obtained with the smallest of keys.

    There's definitely a better way to handle it besides how BfA did (and to a lesser degree Legion), and SL is looking to be that better way. However, I feel no sympathy for players who force themselves to grind for tiny power increases. If you choose that life (be it just personally doing it for yourself or because of the raid you've chosen to join), that's on you.
    Sorry, I've only been playing Arms Warrior since coming back, so my class knowledge on the finer things like essences & corruptions are close to non-existent. We're definitely an extreme outlier, with Test of Might being as ridiculous as it comes in terms of Azerite trait power, but heyo, it's all gone soon.

    Still, it seems like you do get what I (poorly) asked, & you're right when you say it's partly the fault of the player for accepting it, but when that level of investment required just seems to be going up & up as time goes on, some of the blame definitely falls on Blizzard. As for player power progression/players quitting, BfA probably has more than the previous 5 expansions combined, yet is seemingly doing worse than all of them save for maybe WoD, which had issues of a much different variety. TBC & Wrath had more than enough player power progression to keep the masses entertained - what's wrong with a system like that again?

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