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  1. #1

    Apple Silicon - finally an alternative to x86 on desktop

    So, pretty big deal - ARM will soon be on desktop https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020...ay-from-intel/
    And this is not a hobby project like the ones from Microsoft or Google, it's the real deal. Apple's software is on ARM, Microsoft's Office is on ARM and... Adobe's CC is on ARM. Wow.

    My thoughts - well, you can judge performance on their FCP demo - three streams of 4k playback. Now, 2019 MBP with Intel can easily do four streams and can do five streams of 4k. So initial reaction was very disappointing. Buuuut - they are demoing this on A12Z, which is basically A12X - 2018 CPU for... a tablet - iPad Pro. While I bet my ass that this version was overclocked, it is still impressive for a tablet CPU. For desktop - well, A12Z has only 4 big cores. So I'm pretty optimistic - they will put 8 big cores for Macbook Pro CPUs - that's 6 streams of 4k playing back. Now that's good. And it's a 2018 CPU fabricated on 7nm, next year they will have more powerful CPUs and on 5nm.

    So yea, what are your thoughts?

    Of course we will have to wait for benchmarks, but I'm pretty optimistic. My main concern - whether Blender and Davinci Resolve will get ported to ARM.

    Let the Apple bashing begin.
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  2. #2
    Pandaren Monk lockblock's Avatar
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    It doesn't matter because I will never buy an Apple computer. On topic, it's a stupid idea because even if they make an emulator for the old software it will eventually be discontinued just like the PowerPC emulator and software/games that otherwise would still work won't on newer systems.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by lockblock View Post
    It doesn't matter because I will never buy an Apple computer. On topic, it's a stupid idea because even if they make an emulator for the old software it will eventually be discontinued just like the PowerPC emulator and software/games that otherwise would still work won't on newer systems.
    Old 32bit x86 software already doesn't work, no argument there. OpenGL will also go by the way of dodo.

    That's the price of progress, otherwise you end up with Win95/Win8 frankenstein's monster that is Windows 10.

    And, as usual, there's virtualisation to solve preserving old software concerns.
    Last edited by ldev; 2020-06-22 at 08:56 PM.
    My nickname is "LDEV", not "idev". (both font clarification and ez bait)

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  4. #4
    Pandaren Monk
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    ARM on desktops isn't anything new....

  5. #5
    They will start this off with putting them in the low end iMac and MacBooks. They don't need as much power and probably sell better than the pro versions of everything. It will be interesting to see what happens when they go ARM with the MacBook Pros, high end iMacs, and the Mac Pro. Thats when we will know if they can compete with intel. Also are they going to continue to support AMD and Nvidia cards or do they plan on producing their own GPU's in the long run.

    Either way its a risk but I'm happy a company is going down a new path. X86 needs a rival to push it forward.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Tommi View Post
    ARM on desktops isn't anything new....
    Really now? I have never seen a big community on the internet or in real life doing programming or video editing on an ARM laptop before. Chromebooks with Linux installed sometimes pop up, but they are like a unicorn. Come 2021 - every coffee shop will have dozens of ARM laptops.

    Technically you are correct, but...
    My nickname is "LDEV", not "idev". (both font clarification and ez bait)

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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldev View Post
    Really now? I have never seen a big community on the internet or in real life doing programming or video editing on an ARM laptop before. Chromebooks with Linux installed sometimes pop up, but they are like a unicorn. Come 2021 - every coffee shop will have dozens of ARM laptops.

    Technically you are correct, but...
    MS has had a version of Windows on ARM for 10+ years now, internal yes, but still. Fuck, with a little bit of tinkering, you can run Windows 10 on a Raspberry Pi. I, myself, have done so on my Pi3, and with the Pi4, I've read its totally useable now.

    Apple going to ARM on desktops isn't new news either, it's been in works for a few years. ARM is a great choice for mobile solutions, but it's also hitting same issues X86 has now; not much in way of pure improvements power wise, both in consumption and gains.

    I just cannot get behind anything Apple does anymore, the Macbook "pro" is a pathetic machine, not even worthy of the Pro name. And you can bet they'll still charge a major premium, with no user ability to fix the machine. Apple has fast become the most anti-consumer company on the planet. All in the name of pure control.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Tommi View Post
    MS has had a version of Windows on ARM for 10+ years now, internal yes, but still. Fuck, with a little bit of tinkering, you can run Windows 10 on a Raspberry Pi. I, myself, have done so on my Pi3, and with the Pi4, I've read its totally useable now.

    Apple going to ARM on desktops isn't new news either, it's been in works for a few years. ARM is a great choice for mobile solutions, but it's also hitting same issues X86 has now; not much in way of pure improvements power wise, both in consumption and gains.

    I just cannot get behind anything Apple does anymore, the Macbook "pro" is a pathetic machine, not even worthy of the Pro name. And you can bet they'll still charge a major premium, with no user ability to fix the machine. Apple has fast become the most anti-consumer company on the planet. All in the name of pure control.
    Cool. "Let the Apple bashing begin." was more of a joke, but that's what soulless corporation like Microsoft does to you - makes you float too. Still have PTSD from working with MFC and WWF.
    My nickname is "LDEV", not "idev". (both font clarification and ez bait)

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  9. #9
    Are they going to actively cool them or will they go the same route they have? An exhaust fan that in no way directs airflow over a “heatsink”.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by ldev View Post
    Old 32bit x86 software already doesn't work, no argument there. OpenGL will also go by the way of dodo.

    That's the price of progress, otherwise you end up with Win95/Win8 frankenstein's monster that is Windows 10.

    And, as usual, there's virtualisation to solve preserving old software concerns.
    Emulation*

    You won't be able to virtualize incompatible software.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by lockblock View Post
    It doesn't matter because I will never buy an Apple computer. On topic, it's a stupid idea because even if they make an emulator for the old software it will eventually be discontinued just like the PowerPC emulator and software/games that otherwise would still work won't on newer systems.
    I wonder how this will all go down the line... After all, Intel on Mac's has been such an easy transition for developers, because the PC market already ran on x86. However if ARM remains just a minor part of the PC world, then I kinda doubt that many developers will adapt to Apple, especially if Apple's cpu's end up being totally incompatible with other ARM processors. macOS already has a lot less software than Windows, hence why Boot Camp (and Parallels VM) was such a necessity.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldev View Post
    Cool. "Let the Apple bashing begin." was more of a joke, but that's what soulless corporation like Microsoft does to you - makes you float too. Still have PTSD from working with MFC and WWF.
    Wut. Where on Earth did you get I was bashing Apple?

    The Macboon Pro comment? Totally valid. Go read the many reviews and most of them (unbiased ones) will say the machine isn't worthy of the name. Apples thermals past few years have been pathetic. The sort of stuff I'd expect from cheap chinese clones, not Apple.

    Was it the anti-consumer company remark? Well, so try get a Macbook repaired by a qualitfied tech who isn't part of Apples repair bullshit, oh yeah, they can't. The T2 chip blocks any unauthorised repairs and refused to boot machine till it talks to an Apple server. And that's not getting onto soldering shit to the motherboards that doesn't need to be, all in the name of forcing people to upgrade whole machines that work perfectly fine otherwise. That is anti-consumer, simple as that.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Tommi View Post
    Wut. Where on Earth did you get I was bashing Apple?

    The Macboon Pro comment? Totally valid. Go read the many reviews and most of them (unbiased ones) will say the machine isn't worthy of the name. Apples thermals past few years have been pathetic. The sort of stuff I'd expect from cheap chinese clones, not Apple.

    Was it the anti-consumer company remark? Well, so try get a Macbook repaired by a qualitfied tech who isn't part of Apples repair bullshit, oh yeah, they can't. The T2 chip blocks any unauthorised repairs and refused to boot machine till it talks to an Apple server. And that's not getting onto soldering shit to the motherboards that doesn't need to be, all in the name of forcing people to upgrade whole machines that work perfectly fine otherwise. That is anti-consumer, simple as that.
    Yep. When the cooling solution is to passively cool your CPU it’s not very Pro level.

  13. #13
    Need to see what it will deliver when it starts shipping on proper pro models.

    Apple does have some great chips there, they are almost consistently generation ahead of closest competitor when it comes to ARM processors, but I do wonder whether they can scale it up properly and most importantly how they will handle compatibility.

    - - - Updated - - -

    As a whole it IS a big deal. If Apple actually manages to move their whole pro stack to ARM hardware and it will prove to work well, it will be a literal tech earthquake that will lead to ARM CPUs becoming a thing mainstream in a couple of years from that moment.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Tommi View Post
    Wut. Where on Earth did you get I was bashing Apple?

    The Macboon Pro comment?
    Hmmm.
    Well, so try get a Macbook repaired by a qualitfied tech who isn't part of Apples repair bullshit, oh yeah, they can't. The T2 chip blocks any unauthorised repairs and refused to boot machine till it talks to an Apple server
    And what are pro T2 arguments? You're very one dimensional.

    soldering shit to the motherboards that doesn't need to be
    You think you can make motherboard with off the shelf components that get put into sockets - go work for Dell, they will pay a shit ton for you to make their XPS line thin AND with replaceable parts. Why don't you do that?
    all in the name of forcing people to upgrade whole machines that work perfectly fine otherwise. That is anti-consumer, simple as that.
    Okay, iOS 14, 2020 year OS will support iPhone 6S. Tell me when 6S was released and if you honestly think that's a forced upgrade. Also tell me how old are the laptops that current macOS supports.

    How is selling a metal box that is never advertised as upgradable and is widely known as not upgradable anti consumer? They don't advertise as upgradable. Is buying a phone that is not upgradable anti consumer? Is buying a fridge that is not upgradable anti consumer? Is buying a car that is not upgradable (engine swap makes it not road legal in EU, I know, me and my buddy put Honda K24 into a Miata ) anti consumer? Is buying a microwave that is not upgradable anti consumer? Is buying a TV that is not upgradable anti consumer? Yes? Is buying a pencil anti consumer then - I mean you have to keep on destroying your pencil in order to use it. Is buying a non refillable BIC lighter anti consumer? Yes? Well gtfo Stalman and eat some of your foot's skin )

    Apples thermals past few years have been pathetic
    And ARM will solve that, hip hip hooray. Give me a high five!

    As a whole it IS a big deal. If Apple actually manages to move their whole pro stack to ARM hardware and it will prove to work well, it will be a literal tech earthquake that will lead to ARM CPUs becoming a thing mainstream in a couple of years from that moment.
    Totally. Windows on ARM might have more than 15 users and one developer then x)
    My nickname is "LDEV", not "idev". (both font clarification and ez bait)

    yall im smh @ ur simplified english

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post

    As a whole it IS a big deal. If Apple actually manages to move their whole pro stack to ARM hardware and it will prove to work well, it will be a literal tech earthquake that will lead to ARM CPUs becoming a thing mainstream in a couple of years from that moment.
    Both Google and Amazon have been using ARM based datacentres for years now. ARM based processors are EVERYWHERE, phones, TV, fridges, microwaves, you name it.

    What I do find amazingly funny is Apples usual buzznames for products. Apple Silicon, not one mention of ARM. I legit hate buzzwords like that, fuck you still get people arguing that Retina displays on iPhones are specially made screens by Apple. Even using basic maths (Pixels Per Inch) to explain how display sharpness works, and they say that you know nothing. Guess building, repairing and designing systems for the past 20 years means nothing.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Tommi View Post
    Both Google and Amazon have been using ARM based datacentres for years now. ARM based processors are EVERYWHERE, phones, TV, fridges, microwaves, you name it.

    What I do find amazingly funny is Apples usual buzznames for products. Apple Silicon, not one mention of ARM. I legit hate buzzwords like that, fuck you still get people arguing that Retina displays on iPhones are specially made screens by Apple. Even using basic maths (Pixels Per Inch) to explain how display sharpness works, and they say that you know nothing. Guess building, repairing and designing systems for the past 20 years means nothing.
    You do realise that ARM is an instruction set? You mean you always say "I bought x86 Ryzen CPU" or x86 i9-9900 CPU? Okay weirdo, just like normal people say "I bought AMD Ryzen CPU" and when AMD announces their CPUs, they always say "AMD CPUs". Same with Apple. Their CPUs are called Apple Silicon.

    Sad. Grasping at straws now. x))) Hilarious. How dare they say the name of their product line!!! BUZZWORDS, BUZZWORDS I SAYY xDD How triggered do you get when someone says "macOS" - "UGH I HATE BUZZWORDS, IT'S UNIX!!!! NOT ONE MENTION OF UNIX!!!! UNIX IS EVERYWHERE AND IT HAS BEEN FOR AGESS!!" xD Or when they mention any of their APIs, like "Core Audio" - "UGH I HATE BUZZWORDS, IT'S AN API!! NOT ONE MENTION OF API!!!" D Oh dude you crack me up.
    Oh my god, do you also get triggered when people say "mmo-champion"? "AAAAARGH BUZZWORDS!! IT'S A FORUM! NOT ONE MENTION THAT THIS IS A FORUM!!!!" xDD

    Now answer my questions here please - https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post52442964
    Last edited by ldev; 2020-06-22 at 10:16 PM.
    My nickname is "LDEV", not "idev". (both font clarification and ez bait)

    yall im smh @ ur simplified english

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Tommi View Post
    Both Google and Amazon have been using ARM based datacentres for years now. ARM based processors are EVERYWHERE, phones, TV, fridges, microwaves, you name it.

    What I do find amazingly funny is Apples usual buzznames for products. Apple Silicon, not one mention of ARM. I legit hate buzzwords like that, fuck you still get people arguing that Retina displays on iPhones are specially made screens by Apple. Even using basic maths (Pixels Per Inch) to explain how display sharpness works, and they say that you know nothing. Guess building, repairing and designing systems for the past 20 years means nothing.
    There is a big difference between ARM processors in data centers, gadgets and mobile/tablets and these said ARM processors in full blown pro level laptops - that, until now, was a major separator there. There were some fringe attempts to do these by others, but these were mostly tech demos or fringe attempts rather than actual products at scale.

    The importance of Apple, which is a big name in tech, committing ARM to prosumer level hardware is to not be understated. If they manage to show that having a professional grade laptop running ARM is working out well, it will open the floodgates for the likes of Samsung and others to start pushing their own solutions with their own chips as opposed to sucking Intel's dick.


    Also, it's absolutely fine to have a brand for your stuff, not sure what's so triggering you there. What, because it's "Apple" - that's your problem? It's not any different from Intel and AMD - they spare no expense on their unique branding, despite the architecture being a mix of what both made up over the years and called x86/AMD64.

    It's OK, ARM gets its share alright in royalties, don't worry about them.
    Last edited by Gaidax; 2020-06-22 at 10:15 PM.

  18. #18
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    Oh God, here we go......


    Quote Originally Posted by ldev View Post
    Hmmm.

    And what are pro T2 arguments? You're very one dimensional.
    I'm talking about anti-consumerism. The negatives far outweigh the positives on the T2 chip in that regard.

    Quote Originally Posted by ldev View Post
    You think you can make motherboard with off the shelf components that get put into sockets - go work for Dell, they will pay a shit ton for you to make their XPS line thin AND with replaceable parts. Why don't you do that?
    Guess what. Dell managed to make a desktop replacement system with upgradeable CPU and GPU in a laptop, plus upgradeable RAM, SSD's... The usual stuff that the user should be able to upgrade.

    Quote Originally Posted by ldev View Post
    Okay, iOS 14, 2020 year OS will support iPhone 6S. Tell me when 6S was released and if you honestly think that's a forced upgrade. Also tell me how old are the laptops that current macOS supports.
    I see no relevence in this question comapired to what I said. We're talking abotu a desktop/laptop line here, replacements for X86 remember? Last phone I remember that had an X86 chip was a Motorola phone that I still have in my desk drawer that ran Android. I bought it for mere curiosity.

    Quote Originally Posted by ldev View Post
    How is selling a metal box that is never advertised as upgradable and is widely known as not upgradable anti consumer? They don't advertise as upgradable. Is buying a phone that is not upgradable anti consumer? Is buying a fridge that is not upgradable anti consumer? Is buying a car that is not upgradable (engine swap makes it not road legal in EU, I know, me and my buddy put Honda K24 into a Miata ) anti consumer? Is buying a microwave that is not upgradable anti consumer? Is buying a TV that is not upgradable anti consumer? Yes? Is buying a pencil anti consumer then - I mean you have to keep on destroying your pencil in order to use it. Is buying a non refillable BIC lighter anti consumer? Yes? Well gtfo Stalman and eat some of your foot's skin )
    Holy shit, such bad examples. I'll go through them however.
    The metal box should be able to be REPAIRED by qualified techs, like myself. However, becuase I am not part of ASP (google it), I am not allowed to, or so says Apple. You have to go to someone Apple deems worthy (genius bar guys are laughable in their knowledge) for a repair? That is anti-consumer. You are FORCED to Apple.

    A fridge has never ever been user upgradeable, nor are they ment to be, silly annology.

    Depends on country, mate. In the UK, engine swaps are legal as long as you go through proper road tests set out by the government. Afte rthose, you simply send VIN number of old doner car with V5 and get new V5 with no engine number. I know this for a fact, here's the link: https://www.gov.uk/change-vehicle-de...idence-to-give
    A better example would be a car company FORING you to use their dealerships for repairs and work, which is illegal in UK. As long as the garage is VAT registered and uses OEM parts, your warrenty is perfectly intact.

    Me thinks you don't understand what anti-consumer means. Allow me to help you here.
    Definition of anti-consumer. : not favorable to consumers : improperly favoring the interests of businesses over the interests of consumers, anti-consumer practices.


    Quote Originally Posted by ldev View Post

    And ARM will solve that, hip hip hooray. Give me a high five!
    Someone doesn't understand how CPU's actually work in regard to heat. We've seen this kind of thing before.

    Quote Originally Posted by ldev View Post
    Totally. Windows on ARM might have more than 15 users and one developer then x)
    Showing your true colours here. I use Windows mainly due to being a gamer. All servers I work with are Linux based. I used MacOS from version 6 all the way to OSX. I've also built several hackintoshes for people who used OSX for work, but were gamers, and hackintoshes are best bang-per-buck in this regard. ALSO UPGRADEABLE!!

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by ldev View Post
    You do realise that ARM is an instruction set?
    "arm" is the company that designed the core technology of those CPUs. They just don't make actual physical CPUs themselves, instead they license those designs out to companies like Apple, Samsung, Qualcomm etc to make CPUs out of them in various configurations.

    https://www.arm.com/

    The company is called "arm" (they re-branded to lower case for some reason), the instruction sets typically have a version, like ARMv8 for the current one, or ARMv9 which is rumored to be used for Apples A14.

    Calling it "Apple Silicone" is entirely marketing buzzwords. The chips are manufactured by TSMC based on core technology licensed from arm. Sure, Apple developed this specific CPU, based on those licensed technologies, but its a farthrow from a comparison like AMD Ryzen, who developed the entire CPU from the ground up (with some cross-licensing with Intel to remain compatible. AMD owns a few patents Intel needs, and Intel has a bunch that AMD needs)
    Last edited by Nevcairiel; 2020-06-22 at 10:36 PM.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    There is a big difference between ARM processors in data centers, gadgets and mobile/tablets and these said ARM processors in full blown pro level laptops - that, until now, was a major separator there. There were some fringe attempts to do these by others, but these were mostly tech demos or fringe attempts rather than actual products at scale.

    The importance of Apple, which is a big name in tech, committing ARM to prosumer level hardware is to not be understated. If they manage to show that having a professional grade laptop running ARM is working out well, it will open the floodgates for the likes of Samsung and others to start pushing their own solutions with their own chips as opposed to sucking Intel's dick.
    Which is great for us consumers. I welcome shake-ups in the tech world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Also, it's absolutely fine to have a brand for your stuff, not sure what's so triggering you there. What, because it's "Apple" - that's your problem? It's not any different from Intel and AMD - they spare no expense on their unique branding, despite the architecture being a mix of what both made up over the years and called x86/AMD64.
    It's a problem when the average consumer asks for your advice, then says "But X company said this and that, so you're wrong". That's my issue. You have companies outright lying to people, and it's not just Apple at fault here. It used to be called false advertising, but now, thanks to these silly names companies come up with, it's a fucking minefield. They are lying, but get away with it, and from a legal minded standpoint with a history in contract law, and consumer law, it annoys me to no end.

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