Returning Ability: Devouring Plague ?

[enigma77]

It's amazing how they took the Demo Lock resource mechanic, bastardized it and gave it to Shadow while also ruining Demo Locks and now Shadows hate it.

Truly an outstanding company.

[ttylol]

guess i got bamboozled by hope/hype again... did not expect DP numbers to be that low yikes maybe it'll get buffed in exchange for becoming unusable in VF and/or they make a talent that emphasizes DP over VF? but won't hold my breath, i guess it's finally time to find a new main

[aryadneae]

What I don't really understand is why they don't make void torrent and lingering insanity baseline. These two spells were the core of the shadow when it was designed back in legion. Honestly, I did enjoy shadow in legion but it's true that you feel way behind in M+ with the ramp up while also bringing almost 0 utility for the party. The current state of DP doesn't fix any of this. Maybe they could add a talent that improves DP like this: "when you cast Devouring Plague on a target you spread all the dots (SW: P and VT) to the enemies nearby and also the duration of the DOT is halved (while keeping up the dmg)"

Maybe it's too overpowered and would need some tuning but you get the philosophy, spreading the dots and accelerating their damage

[Shandalar]

It's amazing how they took the Demo Lock resource mechanic, bastardized it and gave it to Shadow while also ruining Demo Locks and now Shadows hate it.

Truly an outstanding company.

Its funny because it is true.

[Daedius]

Devouring Plague Afflicts the target with a disease that instantly causes [ 72.6% of Spell Power ] Shadow damage plus an additional [ 50% of Spell Power ] Shadow damage over 12 sec. Damage caused by the Devouring Plague heals the caster. Can be cast in Shadowform. Priest - Shadow Spec. Priest - Shadow Spec. All Shadow Orbs. 40 yd range. Instant.

Hmm...

Probably a remnant from old tooltip.

[deviantcultist]

I get why some people don't like the Voidform mechanic and want DP back. Can they make some effort to make it viable in terms of theme? Right now having a "disease" spell return makes no sense when Shadowpriest has earned a solid lore identity regarding the Void.

Perhaps they stopped caring at this point? It is annoying to see Shadow transform from full-Void to having Light and disease spells back.

[Terracresta]

I get why some people don't like the Voidform mechanic and want DP back. Can they make some effort to make it viable in terms of theme? Right now having a "disease" spell return makes no sense when Shadowpriest has earned a solid lore identity regarding the Void.

Perhaps they stopped caring at this point? It is annoying to see Shadow transform from full-Void to having Light and disease spells back.

They already stopped caring and threw in something so they can say: "Here, we didn't completely ignore you, so STFU!"

[Yvaelle]

I get why some people don't like the Voidform mechanic and want DP back. Can they make some effort to make it viable in terms of theme? Right now having a "disease" spell return makes no sense when Shadowpriest has earned a solid lore identity regarding the Void.

Perhaps they stopped caring at this point? It is annoying to see Shadow transform from full-Void to having Light and disease spells back.

I've always pitched Devouring Despair as an alternate name, as a mental affliction we're inflicting upon our enemies.

[UpsideDownCoffee]

I've always pitched Devouring Despair as an alternate name, as a mental affliction we're inflicting upon our enemies.

You should pitch this on the official forums!

[Unholyground]

Wish they would just go back to Shadow Orbs and Devouring Plague as a spender, they could keep void form as a big ass cooldown that is worth using and everyone is happy.

[Ophenia]

Wish they would just go back to Shadow Orbs and Devouring Plague as a spender, they could keep void form as a big ass cooldown that is worth using and everyone is happy.

Imo they could keep Void Form and all the current spells, but changing the class to builder/spender, that'd be less frustrating.

Let's say you'd have 1k max insanity. DoTs, Mind Flay, Mind Blast would generate Insanity. Devouring Plague, Void Bolt, Void Eruption would be spenders, with small or no cooldown. The more insanity you have, the more damage you deal (+1% per 10 Insanity ?). But if you cross a threshold - let's say 750 insanity, then classic Void Form shenanigans, Insanity drains until 0, but damage boost fixed (let's say +125% damage for as long as Void Form lasts). It should also change all the spenders to being no-insanity-spender but cooldown-based instead, otherwise it'd be detrimental to use them during void form, that'd suck.

That'd enable a few playstyles.
- No punishment for not activating Voidform. You'd have to play around the threshold.
- Possibility to have burst windows, at a cost. Let's say you're at 700 insanity, you decide to throw 7 Void Eruption (assuming it costs 100), that's a huge AoE damage burst but at the cost of being at 0 insanity, hence 0 damage bonus afterward so you have to build that up again).
- Possibility to activate Void Form when you want by "manually" crossing the threshold.

And then you could even use the last talent row to alter all this. One talent to raise the threshold to say 900 for a better streamlined DPS, less relying on Voidform. Surrender to Madness to add a huge boost to Voidform damage, maybe changing the Spenders to Builders with cooldown (to allow the minigame "keep voidform as long as possible"), and you'd have the Death Penalty if you enter back in Voidform in the next 3 minutes.

We'd need at least one or two new spells with such thing though, otherwise any "Stop DPS" encounter will be painful with DoTs ticking and no way to spend insanity. So why not a Shadow Covenant-like or a Shadow Bubble (and why not this one, heh https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YNSZ475N2Q), on a cooldown.

[Segus1992]

I get why some people don't like the Voidform mechanic and want DP back. Can they make some effort to make it viable in terms of theme? Right now having a "disease" spell return makes no sense when Shadowpriest has earned a solid lore identity regarding the Void.

Perhaps they stopped caring at this point? It is annoying to see Shadow transform from full-Void to having Light and disease spells back.

Pretty sure using the Devouring Plague name was just because it's recognizable and most people would be able to understand what it does easily, since a big theme in Shadowlands is to remove pointless bloat/restrictions. I agree it would make more sense to make Devouring Plague into Devouring Mindnugget or whatever, but seeing as we're getting Vengeance DHs with Fury rather than Pain, Hamstring for all Warriors rather than Piercing Howl etc I can also see why they decided not to change it (at least right away).

As for "Shadow transform from full-Void to having Light back" that isn't really what's happening either as we've always had Power Word: Shield, Resurrection, Leap of Faith, Mass Dispel, Shackle Undead, etc. Really the only change we're getting in that regard is that Shadow Mend doesn't replace Flash Heal anymore (but Flash Heal removes Shadowform when used, so eh?) and Power Infusion.

- - - Updated - - -

The Devouring Plague change is exactly the opposite of their intent.

It has a 12 second duration, so building up Insanity takes time, and then waiting for DP to do damage takes time. Which means regardless of number tuning it will never serve the intended purpose: of finishing mobs off when you don't have time. Again that's ignoring that Void Eruption does more damage on a single target, instantly.

Instead, the best use of DP is - paradoxically - increasing single target damage on long encounters. Wait, what? Yea, you read that right.
When you first enter Voidform you generate Insanity faster than you need, so we will use DP to prevent overcapping Insanity, by throwing DP on targets when we are below say, ~15 stacks (first tier raid gear) and over ~80 Insanity. If we can multi-dot DP, that's even better.

This is a totally unintended design for the ability. It's ridiculous.

Not really accurate, as the DoT part of DP does almost no damage (SWP does 50% more per second, and that's without accounting for Mastery which currently doesn't affect DP), meaning most of the damage (which admittedly is currently very low) is instant. Not to mention that you most likely have insanity left over from your previous fight, especially if you're not using VF at all.

Using it at the start of VF isn't really a good idea either. Yes, drain is initially slow and we're not really at risk of dropping VF even if we start with 90-50=40 insanity (60-50=10 with LotV), but you'd have to use generator CDs just to not drop out early that you could've instead used to get a longer VF - multidotting is obviously even more out of the question.

Furthermore, the intention of the skill isn't to finish off mobs, but to be a shorter full rotation than VF - as VF is a minimum of 45+ sec for a full rotation (as Lingering Insanity is a part of it), whereas building 50 insanity and then waiting even for the full duration of the DoT (which as I said above, isn't at all necessary due to its low damage) is closer to 15-20. If you don't care about the DoT (you shouldn't) that time becomes <10 seconds.

Is DP perfect? Fuck no. Does it serve its intended purpose once tuned to not do less total damage than a Mind Flay? Yes.

Personally I'd like to see the damage increased, and the DoT duration shortened to 6 seconds (but for the DoT damage to still be less total than the direct damage), the name/theme changed, and for it to scale with Mastery (don't think it's intended not to though).

[firehazemt]

10.0 arrives.... Shadow is dead until 11.0 sorry boys.

shadow is just dead period.. more than likely forever

[Yvaelle]

Is DP perfect? Fuck no. Does it serve its intended purpose once tuned to not do less total damage than a Mind Flay? Yes.

Personally I'd like to see the damage increased, and the DoT duration shortened to 6 seconds (but for the DoT damage to still be less total than the direct damage), the name/theme changed, and for it to scale with Mastery (don't think it's intended not to though).

I said specifically that regardless of number tuning, DP won't serve the intended purpose. Either entering Voidform is worthwhile - because Void Eruption and access to Void Bolt is higher single target burst damage to finish the mob - or using DP is better: because it does more damage than Eruption-Bolt-Blast-Flay-Etc.

DP would need to do a frankly insane amount of single target DPS to make it worth casting instead of entering Void Eruption. Let me add that up:

Voidform provides +10% damage (provides +20%, but replaces Shadowform's +10%)
Void Eruption = 190% SP
Void Bolt = 120% SP
SW: Void = 130% SP
Mind Flay = 148% SP

So if a single target mob is going to live for less than 12 seconds, do you cast DP, or Void Eruption & Void Bolts, and buff your Mind Blast and Mind Flay damage?

Well, we can solve for the answer.

If the target is going to live for 2 GCDs:

Voidform buffed: Void Eruption + Void Bolt = 209% + 132% SP = 341% SP in 2 GCDs
Shadowform buffed: DP + SW: Void = 72% SP + 130% SP = 202% SP

Void Eruption + Void Bolt deals nearly double the damage of DP on a target that is about to die.

If the target is going to die in 12 seconds, assuming you have VT+Pain active, you can either deal:

DP = 72% + 50% = 132% SP
SW: Void = 130% SP
Mind Flay = 148% SP
Mind Flay = 148% SP
SW: Void = 130% SP
Mind Flay (1 GCD) = 65% SP

= 753% SP

Or:

Void Eruption = 209% SP
Void Bolt = 132% SP
SW: Void = 143% SP
Mind Flay (1 GCD) = 82% SP
Void Bolt = 132% SP
SW: Void = 143% SP
Mind Flay (1 GCD) = 82% SP
Void Bolt = 132% SP
VT = 192% over 21 seconds = 109% over 12 seconds, 10% (Voidform) = 11% SP
Pain = 99% over 16 seconds = 72% over 12 seconds, 10% (Voidform) = 7% SP

= 1073% SP

So skipping DP and entering Voidform is going to do 320% SP more damage over DP's duration.
For any fight longer than 12 seconds, DP becomes even worse than entering Voidform: as Voidform continues to provide benefits much longer than 12 seconds.

Now, what I said was the only time you would potentially want to use DP is directly after entering Voidform. During this time you generate Insanity faster than you lose it, so you do not need to blow generating cooldowns (Shadowfiend, Lucid Dreams, etc) to compensate for DP'ing at the start of Voidform. I have tested this in https://voidform-optimizer.com/, you are welcome to do the same.

Which means that precisely the opposite of their intended use, DP is just something we use at the start of a Voidform - on long motionless fights. That's the only time when the cost is irrelevant, and it just becomes a slightly higher DPET than a clipped Mind Flay (1 GCD): it's not even worth prioritizing, even then, over Void Bolt or SW: Void.

So, if you wanted to buff Devouring Plague to make it competitive, this is what you would need to do:

- Devouring Plague initial damage buffed from 72% to 232% SP
- Devouring Plague DOT damage buffed from 50% over 12 seconds to, 370% SP over 12 seconds

And all this accomplishes is makes casting DP without entering Voidform equal (not better!) over the following 1-12 seconds.
This doesn't address the problem of it being better still to cast Voidform, then cast Devouring Plague.
You could fix that problem by making it not castable in Voidform, but that's an even more bizarre design choice.

[Omedon]

Devouring plague doesn't need to out-damage void form to be better than void form, it just needs to come close, because it's intended for non-trinity applications and is vampiric damage, a simultaneous heal.

Void Form is 100% a "trinity content" power, so much so that it feels bad in most of the game, which is not trinity content. Devouring plague should be considered the main use for insanity since most fights do not last long enough for Void form to be worth its ebb and flow.

[Yvaelle]

I must not be understanding what you mean by trinity content. Because none of that made sense to me.

If the target is doing to die in 1 GCD, Voidform deals triple the damage of Devouring Plague (72% SP vs 209% SP).
If the target is doing to die in 12 seconds, entering Voidform deals 40% more damage than Devouring Plague.

If the there are more than one targets, Void Eruption hits all of them, and DP does not.
If the target will live longer than 12 seconds, Voidform will outscale beyond already doing 40% more damage (12 seconds).

I doubt they are willing to buff Devouring Plague by 500%, but that's what is necessary to make it break even on <12 second fights.

[Omedon]

I must not be understanding what you mean by trinity content. Because none of that made sense to me.

If the target is doing to die in 1 GCD, Voidform deals triple the damage of Devouring Plague (72% SP vs 209% SP).
If the target is doing to die in 12 seconds, entering Voidform deals 40% more damage than Devouring Plague.

If the there are more than one targets, Void Eruption hits all of them, and DP does not.
If the target will live longer than 12 seconds, Voidform will outscale beyond already doing 40% more damage (12 seconds).

I doubt they are willing to buff Devouring Plague by 500%, but that's what is necessary to make it break even on <12 second fights.

Ok so since you didn't quote me I can only assume you're referring to me, so here's what I can offer in response.

To define my admittedly self-coined term "trinity content," I'm not talking about where DP is meant to be used: you use DP when soloing or doing content where a tank isn't holding threat so you can just tee off with casting time powers and longer rotations, and no healer has your back. Therefore "trinity content" is where Void form is intended for, but that's not most of WoW any more.

Furthermore, if you're in a solo or trinity-agnostic situation in shadowlands, and you get a full insanity bar, you messed up, so even comparing the damage of longer term rotations to "saving up for void eruption" is moot because ideally you don't erupt when solo in a world where DP exists.

That said, yes I agree a buff may be needed to DP, but the utility/survivability buff of vampiric damage shouldn't be forgotten. If DP approaches half of the damage you could get for a short term clunky solo eruption scenario, that would in theory be good enough because your damage is duplicated as incoming healing. That's the point of allocating DP as the insanity spender for solo or trinity agnostic content where you don't necessarily have the benefit of a tank or healer with you. A solo content fix needs to consider squishyness as much as DPS which is why DP is potentially an elegant fix.

[Yvaelle]

Shadow doesn't really have a healing or survivability problem, so the healing component of Devouring Plague is not very valuable.

If mages had a spell that dealt less damage but healed them, they would care more about that. But Shadow has VT healing, Power Word: Shield, Flash Heal, Prayer of Mending, etc.

Losing an enormous amount of damage to cast DP on the grounds that it heals you isn't justified, we're not that desperate for self-healing, but we are that desperate to maximize damage on short encounters: where Voidform is far, far better (and still 'bad' relative to other classes). Regardless of how long the encounter is, Voidform is currently always the better option by far.

[Venara]

Devouring plague doesn't need to out-damage void form to be better than void form, it just needs to come close, because it's intended for non-trinity applications and is vampiric damage, a simultaneous heal.

Void Form is 100% a "trinity content" power, so much so that it feels bad in most of the game, which is not trinity content. Devouring plague should be considered the main use for insanity since most fights do not last long enough for Void form to be worth its ebb and flow.

The problem is that it doesn't come close and you're ignoring that Blizzard already said they want DP to be THE TOOL to use in the following content:

We’ve seen a lot of feedback that Void Form can be challenging to utilize to its full potential in some combat situations, such as in Mythic Keystone dungeons on non-boss encounters, or for leveling and doing outdoor content. We tend to agree that Void Form can feel unrewarding in situations where it becomes difficult to maintain efficient insanity generation. Rather than heavily re-designing Void Form, we’re introducing a new tool for these combat situations with the return of Devouring Plague.

As Yvaelle already explained, in all of those above quoted situations entering Voidform remains the vastly superior option with current tuning.

I'm not sure why you are arguing against what is a very sound and logical explanation unless you're arguing for the sake of arguing?

Also, I would kindly ask that you stop using your made up word in an open discussion. It means nothing to the rest of us and makes everybody look foolish when it inevitably ends up being misunderstood or misused.

[Segus1992]

So, if you wanted to buff Devouring Plague to make it competitive, this is what you would need to do:

- Devouring Plague initial damage buffed from 72% to 232% SP
- Devouring Plague DOT damage buffed from 50% over 12 seconds to, 370% SP over 12 seconds

And all this accomplishes is makes casting DP without entering Voidform equal (not better!) over the following 1-12 seconds.
This doesn't address the problem of it being better still to cast Voidform, then cast Devouring Plague.
You could fix that problem by making it not castable in Voidform, but that's an even more bizarre design choice.

What you're failing to consider for some reason:

A) DP costs less insanity
B) DP is instant
C) DP heals
D) VF insanity drain (means you often start fights with 0 insanity, which you'd do much more rarely with DP)

DP isn't supposed to be better than VF in long fights. Even 12 seconds after DP is cast is a long fight with last build's numbers. DP peaks when it's cast, not when it ends. DPs ideal fight is one where you're moving a lot, taking damage (slowing casts, needing heals), and with regular 10+ sec intervals between fights. This is what DP is intended to be better than VF for, and essentially nothing else.

As such, what it needs to be useful -ever- is to be stronger than VE per insanity cost (in situations where VE is the killing blow, we can assume VE does 209% damage at 90 insanity cost). In other words, it needs to beat 2.32%/insanity (3.5 with LotV). If we count healing as a part of its power (123% damage and healing, or 246% total) it's already at 4.92%/insanity.

However, that just means it's useful when all stars align. If the purpose of DP is to be the open world single target insanity spender (5-20 sec fights), there should be no doubt that DP is better - ie VE/VF should only win when it actually gets to either AoE with VE or last a while with VF. So yes, it definitely needs a buff.

It definitely doesn't need a 5x buff. Is the apparent 50% buff on beta enough? Can't say. But it was already (rarely!) useful with the old numbers.

Lastly, I will admit that DP being castable in VF is a strange combination that should somehow be discouraged/disabled, since it simply makes it so that the best way to use DP is to do VE at 100 insanity -> DP -> VB -> DP, ending VF and starting to gather insanity again. Easiest fix is to make it unusable in VF, but I agree that isn't ideal.

- - - Updated - - -

The problem is that it doesn't come close and you're ignoring that Blizzard already said they want DP to be THE TOOL to use in the following content:

I want to point out that this isn't at all what they said. They said VF feels unrewarding when you can't maintain insanity generation. That does not mean "THE tool for non-boss M+". It means it's at the very least an alternative spender in those situations. For it to be an alternative spender though, it needs to be comparable in some situations, and unquestionably stronger in some - clearly those situations aren't mean to be AoE situations, or longer fights.