Icecrown (Spoilers)

[Halfaheart]

I think its funny that people are crying about how Sylvanas kidnapped everybody but we have yet to see the prologue intro, the prepatch, or a single cutscene. The constant overreaction before actually receiving all of the details is unhealthy and ridiculous lmao

[Timester]

yes it is, convenient and easy plot point, same as those shit cartoons

Do tell us the spoilers of how it happened then.

[Tiwack]

Cool your jets and maybe we could have a discussion in place of this outrage-porn. We've not even seen prepatch or a prologue for the expansion yet.

[Hubbl3]

Cool your jets and maybe we could have a discussion in place of this outrage-porn. We've not even seen prepatch or a prologue for the expansion yet.

Given the track record I'm sure the prologue and prepatch will be excellent.

[Aucald]

Cutting the entire abduction bit is the best bet. In fact, cutting is really all you need to do - cut the Jailor's dialogue because it's unspeakably generic and downplays an otherwise menacing setting. You can keep Sylvanas gloating over Anduin if you really must. But the abduction thing makes little sense and you can accomplish the same goal + exposit over the time difference in our world and the Maw by having the ones we see in the questline like Baine, Thrall, Jaina etc. hop in first with a vanguard because they want to help stop the breach, then we get sidetracked by say, a dark ranger ambush or some shit, there's the whole argument with Calia and Tyrande and then everyone heads in, whereupon we find the status quo we see in the quests. Have someone ask "Wow, didn't you leave just an hour ago" and they can exposit about how in the Maw it's been a week. No loyalists with burlap sacks infiltrating Stormwind and capturing Jaina required.

Eh, I'm okay with the concept of abducting Thrall, Jaina, etc. as long as it's believable. The weird notion of Nathanos and Sira creeping around with a burlap sack is laughable, but I think that is kind of far-fetched on its face. I would envision agents of the Jailer (like the strange specters we see in the Vol'jin memories) enacting that - utilizing the newly-made wound between the dimensions to materialize out of seeming nowhere and taking them by surprise or unaware. Easy to see how any of them might be abducted under such a scenario, and well within the realm of possibility now that the material and spiritual worlds have merged a bit. I assume the major leaders have been taken off the board for a reason beyond just demonstrating the unique properties of the Maw, as it were, so I also assume that their presence and experiences in the Maw will have some kind of narrative pay-off beyond just this introductory sequence (and we already know this is true of Tyrande given the prior data-mined scenario concerning her and the history of the Night Warrior).

The Jailer's dialogue is kind of meh, I agree - sounds like boilerplate villainspeak, so I kind of hope this is more a WIP type of deal and I'll withhold judgment on it until we see a more final product. The Jailer strikes me as more of a silent antagonist - he should lead with his presence more than any menacing dialogue, communicating ill intent and malevolence through his bearing and aura as opposed to sounding like a Dr. Claw send-up.

[Saltysquidoon]

Eh, I'm okay with the concept of abducting Thrall, Jaina, etc. as long as it's believable. The weird notion of Nathanos and Sira creeping around with a burlap sack is laughable, but I think that is kind of far-fetched on its face.

I could unironically get behind this plot development.

[Artelia]

I have really bad feeling that Horde lore can't be saved. Whole leadership is just bunch of Alliance friends. This must be pretty weird even for Alliance players. It's like they kicked out Horde writer team just to let Alliance writers take control in whole story.

Golden created few very bad characters in her book and we must follow them to Shadowlands even when practicaly nobody really likes them.

Something changed after Legion. And it's very very bad.

[Super Dickmann]

Eh, I'm okay with the concept of abducting Thrall, Jaina, etc. as long as it's believable. The weird notion of Nathanos and Sira creeping around with a burlap sack is laughable, but I think that is kind of far-fetched on its face. I would envision agents of the Jailer (like the strange specters we see in the Vol'jin memories) enacting that - utilizing the newly-made wound between the dimensions to materialize out of seeming nowhere and taking them by surprise or unaware. Easy to see how any of them might be abducted under such a scenario, and well within the realm of possibility now that the material and spiritual worlds have merged a bit. I assume the major leaders have been taken off the board for a reason beyond just demonstrating the unique properties of the Maw, as it were, so I also assume that their presence and experiences in the Maw will have some kind of narrative pay-off beyond just this introductory sequence (and we already know this is true of Tyrande given the prior data-mined scenario concerning her and the history of the Night Warrior).

I'm taking the piss when it comes to the abduction technique, though it would be pretty funny for that to be the approach to poach Baine and Thrall. But rather, the abduction story is unnecessary and has problems that are more trouble to solve than they're worth - from how it's done, to why limit it to a few people if it's not mundane agents but the Jailor's people crossing over and of course - why not just kill them? If dead, they go to the Maw anyhow and give it resources and it's not like anyone outside would know the difference. The whole concept of needing bait after you've put a hole in reality is itself dubious. It's a whole lot of work for not much pay off, whereas if those mentioned were just the vanguard who went in first, you still have all the same pieces in play, you can hit all the general beats and you don't bury yourself in such unnecessary pablum.

The Jailer's dialogue is kind of meh, I agree - sounds like boilerplate villainspeak, so I kind of hope this is more a WIP type of deal and I'll withhold judgment on it until we see a more final product. The Jailer strikes me as more of a silent antagonist - he should lead with his presence more than any menacing dialogue, communicating ill intent and malevolence through his bearing and aura as opposed to sounding like a Dr. Claw send-up.

Yeah, I was gonna suggest the same thing - he shouldn't speak. Leave the dialogue to his agents and the gloating to Sylvanas. This guy is as old as time, everyone up against him is completely fleeting and by the nature of the Maw, are notable only in so much as their energy can bolster him. He shouldn't care about their opinion enough to even taunt them. The death he presides over is inevitable and equal - whether someone dies afraid, defiant or hopeful, the Maw is where they go anyway and after that they're just fuel. Go for a more force of nature angle, with Sylvanas as the Mouth of Sauron.

[Aucald]

I'm taking the piss when it comes to the abduction technique, though it would be pretty funny for that to be the approach to poach Baine and Thrall. But rather, the abduction story is unnecessary and has problems that are more trouble to solve than they're worth - from how it's done, to why limit it to a few people if it's not mundane agents but the Jailor's people crossing over and of course - why not just kill them? If dead, they go to the Maw anyhow and give it resources and it's not like anyone outside would know the difference. The whole concept of needing bait after you've put a hole in reality is itself dubious. It's a whole lot of work for not much pay off, whereas if those mentioned were just the vanguard who went in first, you still have all the same pieces in play, you can hit all the general beats and you don't bury yourself in such unnecessary pablum.

My first thought is that they're effectively honeypots. The Jailer and/or Sylvanas wants to draw people bodily to the Maw for reasons as-yet unknown. They don't want our anima, per se; they want specific individuals - perhaps to turn them, or for some other reason. Not to say it's a great development and/or reason, but I think the reasoning is probably more involved than just "this is how the Maw works" in the intro sequence. I kind of think of it as an homage to Arthas' plan in WotLK, with the heroes as the ultimate goal and their leaders as the bait on the hook.

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I could unironically get behind this plot development.

It would be kind of hilarious, but I think the weight of disbelief is a bit too heavy to lift on that particular narrative stone.

[Syegfryed]

Do tell us the spoilers of how it happened then.

the point isn't how, is that the event happened, is a crap plothook

And im very skeptical about the way she did, so i will not hold my breath

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Given the track record I'm sure the prologue and prepatch will be excellent.

And will totally be not what we are expecting

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Also, does people notice that conveniently the people who were kidnapped were exactly the die-hard pacifists? and the people who went after then were exactly people who would back up the pacifists?

Orgrimmar, and probably the horde as a whole now is in the hands of genderbend Thrall, Alliance is in Turalyon hands, if you imagine a bit this is like Garrosh x Varian

Keeping that in mind, we know much time will pass on shadowlands, we will return with things changed, good know how many years...

With all the pacifists away we could return to a world engulfed in war and more conflicts once again like a "new vanilla", entire new plotlines that could simple "be there" with the timeskip, with some shady reason like "we don't rly know who attacked first, but we will not be the ones to back down" type of mentality, tons of plotlines with different "enemies" and "allies"

By example, the Botani and the Saberon are now in Kalindor, with many years they could develop their society and became something big, Botani could be an enemy to the orcs and taurens and join the Alliance as allied race.

Saberons could be a problem to the night elves new home or adjacent territory, or just need help of the horde in the barrens and join the horde as allied race.

so much opportunities

[Feanoro]

Every single expansion.

"Just wait and see how the story turns out!" (usually from posters who rarely are seen in the Lore forum). It's the story version of:

"It's just alpha! Designs aren't done, hold your concerns!"
"It's just beta! Designs are fixed, but they still have to do a numbers pass!"
"It's just release, wait until the first patch!"
"It's the final patch, what does it matter now? Let's see what they do in the next expansion!"

Those posts might have a point if they called for less vitriol or something, but since they're essentially "Shut up, don't point out the problems!", it's a bit hard to take them seriously.

[tromage2]

Rohkan really needs a remodel, he looks so out of place between all of those unique models for the leaders.

[Ethas]

1 Troll between humans and elves, can we even call this Horde anymore?

No, housewife nyt best selling writing killed the coolest faction. Good job.

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Every single expansion.

"Just wait and see how the story turns out!" (usually from posters who rarely are seen in the Lore forum). It's the story version of:

"It's just alpha! Designs aren't done, hold your concerns!"
"It's just beta! Designs are fixed, but they still have to do a numbers pass!"
"It's just release, wait until the first patch!"
"It's the final patch, what does it matter now? Let's see what they do in the next expansion!"

Those posts might have a point if they called for less vitriol or something, but since they're essentially "Shut up, don't point out the problems!", it's a bit hard to take them seriously.

Yep and every single time there is no sane conclusion to any story and all opportunities are wasted.

[gurutikka]

Magni should come back to Alliance instead of playing neutral. He has always been an Alliance character.

[Soon-TM]

Magni should come back to Alliance instead of playing neutral. He has always been an Alliance character.

Alliance loses characters because they go neutral, and become bland versions of their former selves. Horde loses characters because writers love take a massive dump on them, and they are never seen again. Pick your poison.

[Hekazi]

Calia being 'Horde' makes sense for the sake of the Forsaken who just got fucked over by their previous ruler. Though, for Valeera, not sure if it confirms her being Horde by standing next to Horde - else that would make Mayla and Baine Alliance for having stood next to Alliance leaders before.

The only reason Valeera was with the alliance was for Varian, and he's dead.

[Kyphael]

Magni should come back to Alliance instead of playing neutral. He has always been an Alliance character.

Now he's a walking engagement ring. Neutrality can have him. We still have Muradin, Brann, and Moira Thaurissan. Magni's OBSOLETE and should be DELETED.

[alt-ithist]

the point isn't how, is that the event happened, is a crap plothook

And im very skeptical about the way she did, so i will not hold my breath

- - - Updated - - -



And will totally be not what we are expecting

- - - Updated - - -

Also, does people notice that conveniently the people who were kidnapped were exactly the die-hard pacifists? and the people who went after then were exactly people who would back up the pacifists?

Orgrimmar, and probably the horde as a whole now is in the hands of genderbend Thrall, Alliance is in Turalyon hands, if you imagine a bit this is like Garrosh x Varian

Keeping that in mind, we know much time will pass on shadowlands, we will return with things changed, good know how many years...

With all the pacifists away we could return to a world engulfed in war and more conflicts once again like a "new vanilla", entire new plotlines that could simple "be there" with the timeskip, with some shady reason like "we don't rly know who attacked first, but we will not be the ones to back down" type of mentality, tons of plotlines with different "enemies" and "allies"

By example, the Botani and the Saberon are now in Kalindor, with many years they could develop their society and became something big, Botani could be an enemy to the orcs and taurens and join the Alliance as allied race.

Saberons could be a problem to the night elves new home or adjacent territory, or just need help of the horde in the barrens and join the horde as allied race.

so much opportunities

I still don’t understand where all the time skip ideas are coming from. From what is shown so far that I’ve seen, times passes faster in the shadowlands not slower. We could be gone 2 years there and come back a few weeks after we left.

[Vakir]

OBSOLETE and should be DELETED.

"CHAMPEEN. Ya got ta right-click and empty the recyclin' bin! Only then will yer hard drive space be healed of its woons!"

[HitRefresh]

I'm taking the piss when it comes to the abduction technique, though it would be pretty funny for that to be the approach to poach Baine and Thrall. But rather, the abduction story is unnecessary and has problems that are more trouble to solve than they're worth - from how it's done, to why limit it to a few people if it's not mundane agents but the Jailor's people crossing over and of course - why not just kill them? If dead, they go to the Maw anyhow and give it resources and it's not like anyone outside would know the difference. The whole concept of needing bait after you've put a hole in reality is itself dubious. It's a whole lot of work for not much pay off, whereas if those mentioned were just the vanguard who went in first, you still have all the same pieces in play, you can hit all the general beats and you don't bury yourself in such unnecessary pablum.



Yeah, I was gonna suggest the same thing - he shouldn't speak. Leave the dialogue to his agents and the gloating to Sylvanas. This guy is as old as time, everyone up against him is completely fleeting and by the nature of the Maw, are notable only in so much as their energy can bolster him. He shouldn't care about their opinion enough to even taunt them. The death he presides over is inevitable and equal - whether someone dies afraid, defiant or hopeful, the Maw is where they go anyway and after that they're just fuel. Go for a more force of nature angle, with Sylvanas as the Mouth of Sauron.

My guess is that they were going to get killed, but some higher ups thought it was too dark so they did this abduction shit instead.