Page 4 of 7 FirstFirst ...
2
3
4
5
6
... LastLast
  1. #61
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    The forums
    Posts
    35,719
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    Now now, it has been established on these forums that the couple hundred people complaining here clearly constitutes 'the playerbase'.

    lol
    Indeed...I keep forgetting this. Also they totally always offer suggestions how they will enforce their demands...like..not.

    And the other sad thing is...it isn't even a "couple of hundreds"...maybe rather...20?

  2. #62
    The Alliance is a reactionary punching bag since the Warcraft 3 story came out and the Horde is the residual bad guy whose skull-adorned metal urges arise every now and then. Combine this kind of treatment with a MMO setting where they are scared to write a story at the level of the RTS games and you get what we're getting.

  3. #63
    I've listened to the people on this forum put up their ideas for an """improved""" story, that is a horrible idea. See sig.

    Their writing has not gotten worse. People have shined a brighter light on it, scrutinizing its details more heavily, actively looking for things to hate on, even resorting to warping characters into insane caricatures and strawmen to do so.

    I would argue that the only mistake Blizzard have made is writing a story that the players have a deep personal investment in. That was an enormous gamble, and was "successful" in the same way the scientists creating Mewtwo in the Pokemon Movie were "successful." An enormous backfire effect as the players, now actually paying attention to their role in the story instead of just feeling like anonymous murder-hobos-for-hire, relentlessly picked it apart, as everyone wanted something different to be satisfied by it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daevelian View Post
    So this is how far the Lore forum has fallen? Eesh.
    I take it back, BfA is not the lowest the games lore could have gone, this thread proves that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by oplawlz View Post
    You're allowed to like bad writing - but that's not what you said. You said you don't think the writing is bad.

    Since the writing it objectively bad, the correct response is to expose yourself to better writing so you can make an educated comparison. Maybe drop the hyper defensive inferiority complex you have about learning to be better rounded in your intellectual pursuits.
    But on what authority can you tell me the writing is objectively bad? How do you know what I do and don't expose myself to? Why do you have to be so rude simply because we have different opinions, it's almost like your insecure about that fact.

    Finally, maybe I'm crazy - I don't consider a made up story about made up creatures in a made up world an intellectual pursuit. It's for fun, not everything has to be some complex, high-brow story - and I don't think Warcraft has ever pretended to be that. Please be less weird when people disagree with you
    Last edited by Bennett; 2020-06-27 at 09:39 PM.

  5. #65
    Old God Mirishka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Get off my lawn!
    Posts
    10,601
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    I'm just genuinely curious what, if it actually exists, makes one person's opinion worth more than anothers when it comes to entertainment? How arrogant, self-righeteous and frankly rude must you be to imply someone clearly hasn't taken in enough art and therefore isn't 'cultured' just because they like something you don't.

    Posts like that are what my Avatar is for
    Amen. There's tons of things I dislike that other people enjoy... like Fortnite. I wouldn't play Fortnite if Epic paid me to* but I wouldn't insult someone that enjoys it, or argue with them about it or imply 'well u need to play REAL video games if u think Fortnite is good'.

    And anyone that would do that is a fucking idiot as far as I'm concerned.







    *That's a lie, I would totally play it if they paid me.
    My greatest fear is that one day, my MMO-Champion ignore list will run out of space.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    Amen. There's tons of things I dislike that other people enjoy... like Fortnite. I wouldn't play Fortnite if Epic paid me to* but I wouldn't insult someone that enjoys it, or argue with them about it or imply 'well u need to play REAL video games if u think Fortnite is good'.

    And anyone that would do that is a fucking idiot as far as I'm concerned.







    *That's a lie, I would totally play it if they paid me.
    It's simple really

    Me = Smart

    People who like things I don't like = Not Smart

  7. #67
    Elemental Lord GreenJesus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    So Cal
    Posts
    8,204
    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    No, something like that is more BLIZZARDS job, no poll here would be able to be broad enough to cover the issues. You'd need multiple polls on multiple subjects over a long period of time if you only used MMO Champ.
    I sincerely hope that no writer ever uses polls to determine a story. One of the worst ideas I have ever heard. A story should be made from passion by the writer. I think the problem with wow is that there are so many cooks in the kitchen with the manager pulling them in different ways based on marketing.

    For example: sylvanas in BFA and legion cinematic versus Sylvanas in game.
    Last edited by GreenJesus; 2020-06-27 at 09:54 PM.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    I do think Thrall's descent in popularity has a lot more to do with his Cata treatment than the noblesavage business. Back in Wrath I remember one or two polls where he crushed Garrosh, and any other Horde character, Sylvanas was the only one even close. Granted my memory may be faulty, but Thrall absolutely did not start becoming unpopular until Blizzard themselves decided to both shit on his legacy and prop up his character at the same time. Meanwhile they also propped up Garrosh at times and were out to make him look like a meatheaded moron at others. Ah, the memories of Cataclysm. I still can't stress enough how terrible that expansion's storytelling was.
    My post wasn't clear enough maybe - I agree with what you've written here, it's what I was getting at - that even while Thrall was personally still extremely popular, probably the height of his popularity since the game had the widest audience at that stage, there was still an overall interest in more inter-faction conflict independent of that. Wrathgate was the original Burning in terms of the sheer amount of text written about it and the aftermath regarding factions. Garrosh himself was almost universally disliked in Wrath, and was a crapshoot in Cataclysm at best. I think nothing did more to rehabilitate him than the first rebellion story and everything that came after, followed by a reappraisal of what was earlier. As it regards Cataclysm, I maintain that the faction focused stories were decent to excellent (if you were Horde), whereas the main story was abysmal. I wouldn't say the worst since we still have TBC, but truly dire.

    I think WC3 is the most popular piece of lore in part because it makes sense and works on its own. WC2 basically requires you to read Rise of the Horde and a couple other books to make it anything more than a basic story of bad Orcs and good humans with absent characters and poor storytelling (and Light knows that even among Warcraft lore enthusiasts these books aren't commonly read, let alone the general populace). WoW's lore and story woes are far too well documented to even begin listing them here. WC3, taken at face value and without requiring any external reading or extrapolation just works most of the time as a complete story with a beginning, a middle and an end, plus an epilogue in the form of the Rexxar campaign, and compelling (if not very deep) characters doing their thing.
    As a self-contained story WC3 is the best product Blizzard has produced in the franchise. It doesn't have the best writing or lay the only groundwork or whatever, the writing is hokey, even more so than some of what we have now, but it knew what it wanted to be and did an excellent job of it. I can't think of a single story in it that didn't land exactly as intended - except Medivh. Anyone going back to that game will find him a total loon with severe social anxiety who badly should've just spoken straight instead of doom-mongering and who had endless opportunities to prevent many of the events that ended up going down. WC2, soft spot though I have for it and functional in its own right was much more basic, but it laid a lot of groundwork that still gets mileage to this day. It's not an either/or - elements of them are complementary to one another. The WC3 orcish backstory was an objective improvement to the WC2 one and the flaws it did in what the orcs were in the present were corrected in the MMO right before it decided to ditch all the good effort it'd done in aligning these two angles.

    To say nothing of the fact than an MMO isn't a very good medium for storytelling in the first place for various reasons, and an endless story is doomed to sink into mediocrity at best as it repeats the same plot beats again and again, see WoW, post-vanilla SWTOR and, in another medium, comic books which are of the origin point of so many of the flaws of WoW it's not even funny.
    Long-form narratives like this need to be aware of their limitations and play to them. My main frustration is that WoW, less so before, but especially now struggles against these basic points - super hero stories with a universal cast of heroes, all of them with generally the same positions vs an overarching big bad can't do it on their own. Lessons that the gameplay mechanically can't carry and if it could would cripple the game likewise. This is a campy pulp story about war, go with it - don't struggle against it.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2020-06-27 at 10:11 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  9. #69
    Elemental Lord Kyphael's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    8,915
    It's just a video game story. I discuss and debate it as such. No one should be taking this so seriously where they feel the "community is divided" and Blizzard is actively trying to do just this.

  10. #70
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA-US
    Posts
    32,077
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyphael View Post
    It's just a video game story. I discuss and debate it as such. No one should be taking this so seriously where they feel the "community is divided" and Blizzard is actively trying to do just this.
    I don't think it's generally a matter of people "taking it too seriously" as opposed to one where people tend to forget that the people on the other side of the screen are real people with real emotions, and may be understandably invested in their own opinions. It's a matter of respect, and the understandable annoyances when that respect isn't observed or respected. I don't know how many times I've heard variations on the whole "online interactions aren't real" sentiment - it's one I feel has no truth to it, and that the people who employ often do so solely to justify their own crassness.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    My post wasn't clear enough maybe - I agree with what you've written here, it's what I was getting at - that even while Thrall was personally still extremely popular, probably the height of his popularity since the game had the widest audience at that stage, there was still an overall interest in more inter-faction conflict independent of that. Wrathgate was the original Burning in terms of the sheer amount of text written about it and the aftermath regarding factions. Garrosh himself was almost universally disliked in Wrath, and was a crapshoot in Cataclysm at best. I think nothing did more to rehabilitate him than the first rebellion story and everything that came after, followed by a reappraisal of what was earlier. As it regards Cataclysm, I maintain that the faction focused stories were decent to excellent (if you were Horde), whereas the main story was abysmal. I wouldn't say the worst since we still have TBC, but truly dire.



    As a self-contained story WC3 is the best product Blizzard has produced in the franchise. It doesn't have the best writing or lay the only groundwork or whatever, the writing is hokey, even more so than some of what we have now, but it knew what it wanted to be and did an excellent job of it. I can't think of a single story in it that didn't land exactly as intended - except Medivh. Anyone going back to that game will find him a total loon with severe social anxiety who badly should've just spoken straight instead of doom-mongering and who had endless opportunities to prevent many of the events that ended up going down. WC2, soft spot though I have for it and functional in its own right was much more basic, but it laid a lot of groundwork that still gets mileage to this day. It's not an either/or - elements of them are complementary to one another. The WC3 orcish backstory was an objective improvement to the WC2 one and the flaws it did in what the orcs were in the present were corrected in the MMO right before it decided to ditch all the good effort it'd done in aligning these two angles.


    Long-form narratives like this need to be aware of their limitations and play to them. My main frustration is that WoW, less so before, but especially now struggles against these basic points - super hero stories with a universal cast of heroes, all of them with generally the same positions vs an overarching big bad can't do it on their own. Lessons that the gameplay mechanically can't carry and if it could would cripple the game likewise.
    I dunno about the faction war stories in Cataclysm. First the game itself has close to no explanation for the war or how it came to pass- the pre-patch event was about elementals going nuts and then Deathwing comes and there's Twilight's Hammer cultists literally everywhere... oh and teams blue and red hate each other in some zones but in others (80-85 ones especially) factions might as well not exist. Everything to set up and explain the war happened in a book, including the death of a major Horde character, which might as well be offscreen to 95% of the playerbase. Garrosh veers between honorable leader and total idiot who loses an entire fleet to his murderboner. Baine is made into the simpering fool we know today. Vol'jin is angry at Garrosh and you again have no idea why unless you read external material.

    No, I don't think it was good for the Horde, except maybe for the Forsaken and even then you have the dodgy writing over them raising their dead enemies en masse (but it's not mind control because we handwaved something about newly raised dead being angry in a Q&A, that's what good writing looks like folks!) and Sylvanas not knowing if she likes the Forsaken or sees them as cannon fodder. Obviously for the Alliance it was atrocious for all the reasons we know, and that alone would make it poor storytelling.

    The issue IMO is that long-term narratives can't really be done right- repetition and bogging down themes and characters is inevitable. For example, most of the best comic book stories I know spanned relatively short issues or even single books, such as The Killing Joke. Most series that remained good from the beginning to the end (like The Wire or Breaking Bad) had 5 seasons or less. The first three books of A Song of Ice and Fire are masterpieces, then the next two are bogged down in silly plots and the last two aren't even out because of it. In WoW, most good writing is contained to a single zone or even a single questline. A focused narrative will almost always fare better than an expansive one even in the hands of a good writer- and Blizzard aren't good writers.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by oplawlz View Post
    You're allowed to like bad writing - but that's not what you said. You said you don't think the writing is bad.

    Since the writing it objectively bad, the correct response is to expose yourself to better writing so you can make an educated comparison. Maybe drop the hyper defensive inferiority complex you have about learning to be better rounded in your intellectual pursuits.
    There's no such thing as "objectively bad" writing. A lot of people hate Blizzard for turning Sylvanas into an antagonist (NOT villain, she was already that way before BfA). Instead, I like her character arc and appreciate it for what it is; the negative arc of a nihilist so consumed by fear that she has become the very thing she hated.
    We each walk a line. Choose yours.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    I am of the opinion that the reason Blizzard has been able to skate by with their atrocious writing is that so many players buy into the "Who has it worse" feud with regards to the bad writing or favoritism.

    Despite the faction wars usually having some of the worst writing I've also felt that they could be some of the best if Blizzard BOTHERED to have consistency and attention to detail.

    Rather than arguing about how the In-Universe characters are dumb, or who has suffered more (Alliance for being passive and losing things to neutrality, Horde for getting villain-batted and losing characters to being raid bosses and such) we should push together for Blizz to get more in touch with its playerbase and their concerns with the lore. It's been YEARS we shouldn't still be seeing them making the same mistakes and reading people being angry about it as "Engagement".


    #LoreUnion
    Speak for yourself.

    I enjoy the writing.

    And i know a lot of people who do too. The storytelling and quests going through the zones are wonderful.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    I dunno about the faction war stories in Cataclysm. First the game itself has close to no explanation for the war or how it came to pass- the pre-patch event was about elementals going nuts and then Deathwing comes and there's Twilight's Hammer cultists literally everywhere... oh and teams blue and red hate each other in some zones but in others (80-85 ones especially) factions might as well not exist. Everything to set up and explain the war happened in a book, including the death of a major Horde character, which might as well be offscreen to 95% of the playerbase. Garrosh veers between honorable leader and total idiot who loses an entire fleet to his murderboner. Baine is made into the simpering fool we know today. Vol'jin is angry at Garrosh and you again have no idea why unless you read external material.
    Yeah, no arguments where it regards the tie-ins being especially aggravating. In principle, the war was already explained to you in Wrath - Varian declares it, then it's on from level 73 all the way going forward. There's no peace summit or anything, that also happens off-screen and the race intros give you the basic gist of things. The actual stories - Ashenvale, Stonetalon, S. Barrens and basically everything Forsaken related are consistently good to great. The one to suffer heavily if one doesn't read the tie-in materials both during Wrath and in Cataclysm is Garrosh himself and Cairne's death, since without the tie-ins the impression that sticks is the Wrath one where he's just a really angry dude. I entirely disagree on the other leaders though - Baine and Vol'jin were complete non-characters before their appearances in Cataclysm with Garrosh, and so were their according races. Trolls and tauren were essentially orc mini-mes until enough elements of their pre-WC3 characterization were brought back and expanded. I defy anyone to tell me one character trait Vol'jin had before Cataclysm.

    No, I don't think it was good for the Horde, except maybe for the Forsaken and even then you have the dodgy writing over them raising their dead enemies en masse (but it's not mind control because we handwaved something about newly raised dead being angry in a Q&A, that's what good writing looks like folks!) and Sylvanas not knowing if she likes the Forsaken or sees them as cannon fodder. Obviously for the Alliance it was atrocious for all the reasons we know, and that alone would make it poor storytelling.
    We'll no doubt go on about this in another topic, but while the raising thing is a handful, the only insight we're given into Sylvanas's mindset is in Edge of Night and revisionism aside, the conclusion fo it is fairly clear - she goes from utilizing the Forsaken wastefully to making a point of keeping them around and investing long-term into them since her life is connected to hers. Hence things like the dog tags, her letting Crowley go and so forth. Cataclysm moved the Forsaken away from self-flagellation to exploring some of the other aspects of undeath and whenever it focused on it - such as every named person you raise, it did it competently.

    Terrible for the Alliance though, no doubt about that. It's not even the actual content within the story, memequests aside, but the way it is told inconclusively with bad presentation. Stonetalon for example ends up being a huge win for the Alliance, but no one remembers it at all because it's carried by complete non-characters to an anticlimactic finish that tells you these things but doesn't show them. And where it is shown - like the victory in Stonard, the game immediately undercut the Alliance's win by having them back off for no reason. Compare and contrast nuking the Stormpike outposts after an ally's sacrifice in Hillsbrad or even something as simple as seizing night elf positions in Ashenvale, which is visually depicted and ends with a clear victory.

    The issue IMO is that long-term narratives can't really be done right- repetition and bogging down themes and characters is inevitable. For example, most of the best comic book stories I know spanned relatively short issues or even single books, such as The Killing Joke. Most series that remained good from the beginning to the end (like The Wire or Breaking Bad) had 5 seasons or less. The first three books of A Song of Ice and Fire are masterpieces, then the next two are bogged down in silly plots and the last two aren't even out because of it. In WoW, most good writing is contained to a single zone or even a single questline. A focused narrative will almost always fare better than an expansive one even in the hands of a good writer- and Blizzard aren't good writers.
    A focused, conclusive narrative is alien to an MMO but Blizzard don't take it into account and don't write with according stakes. Stories in that situation are best treated as pulp narratives, where you have your pieces and setups and the stories you do are spins on seeing how these pieces lock together and what thing you haven't done with them yet. Blizzard don't let the pieces settle or use them to the fullest before they throw them out of the pram and grab new ones and they also don't focus on the other big element of pulp which is spectacle - consider how much of BFA was taken up by watching sad people chat in murky rooms discussing shit that's happened like three times now and was already tiresome the first time against how much time we used the planet's lifeblood and fifteen years worth of toys on both factions to kill each other. And consider which makes for better cinematics and lends itself more to a game like this. Or whether a roleplaying game exclusively about violence lends itself better when it's colorful, varied cartoon characters clashing melodramatically vs the Burger King kids' club agreeing on all orders of the day.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  15. #75
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA-US
    Posts
    32,077
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    There's no such thing as "objectively bad" writing. A lot of people hate Blizzard for turning Sylvanas into an antagonist (NOT villain, she was already that way before BfA). Instead, I like her character arc and appreciate it for what it is; the negative arc of a nihilist so consumed by fear that she has become the very thing she hated.
    Well, I don't know if I'd go *that* far - there's some atrocious writing out there, as any quick review on Wattpad or Fanfiction.net can confirm. I wouldn't say the writing for WoW descends anywhere near that level, though.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    The issue IMO is that long-term narratives can't really be done right- repetition and bogging down themes and characters is inevitable. For example, most of the best comic book stories I know spanned relatively short issues or even single books, such as The Killing Joke. Most series that remained good from the beginning to the end (like The Wire or Breaking Bad) had 5 seasons or less. The first three books of A Song of Ice and Fire are masterpieces, then the next two are bogged down in silly plots and the last two aren't even out because of it.
    I mean I think that turns on what your level of 'right' is. I think WoW suffers from the issue with cape comics in that it's not just long-form but there are too many cooks which leads to conflicting visions and story retreds (and resultantly the numerous silly retcons). Long-form stories with a single artistic vision and drive can work. Basically every fantasy novel series ever has multiple entries or Berserk (boat memes aside) has maintained a pretty high standard of quality for decades.

    For me, I feel that unified drive is what really puts FFXIV leagues ahead of WoW (narratively). That shows it can be done, alteast to an extent beyond what WoW has slopped out recently.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    In WoW, most good writing is contained to a single zone or even a single questline. A focused narrative will almost always fare better than an expansive one even in the hands of a good writer- and Blizzard aren't good writers.
    Hard agree here. WoW has always been at its best when it does simple well. I the DK order hall, for example, was very good.
    Last edited by Saltysquidoon; 2020-06-27 at 10:59 PM.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post

    A focused, conclusive narrative is alien to an MMO but Blizzard don't take it into account and don't write with according stakes. Stories in that situation are best treated as pulp narratives, where you have your pieces and setups and the stories you do are spins on seeing how these pieces lock together and what thing you haven't done with them yet. Blizzard don't let the pieces settle or use them to the fullest before they throw them out of the pram and grab new ones and they also don't focus on the other big element of pulp which is spectacle - consider how much of BFA was taken up by watching sad people chat in murky rooms discussing shit that's happened like three times now and was already tiresome the first time against how much time we used the planet's lifeblood and fifteen years worth of toys on both factions to kill each other. And consider which makes for better cinematics and lends itself more to a game like this. Or whether a roleplaying game exclusively about violence lends itself better when it's colorful, varied cartoon characters clashing melodramatically vs the Burger King kids' club agreeing on all orders of the day.
    Well, there's only so much spectacle to go around, I don't think WoW's weakness is that it lacks this aspect. Even gameplay wise, Warfronts for example can look pretty good for being in a 15 years old game. Whenever they play well is another topic entirely of course, but WoW usually does spectacle convincingly enough, the issue is that there's almost always some level of bad writing around it that makes you scratch your head. For example, Lordaeron; it is cool that Jaina arrives on a fucking boat The Lonely Island style and freezes an entire battlefield's worth of undead/plague before blasting the walls with arcane cannons? Definitely. But then you think about the fact that this moment requires the Alliance to be complete morons and the Horde to just stand by as their boss callously sacrifices their own and raises their corpses and the effect is lost. Or the Broken Shore; is Varian's last stand cool? You betcha. Is Vol'jin getting dunked by a mook and the Alliance somehow not noticing what's happening when they have a gunship in the sky cool? Not really. I wrote a couple more examples but I'm sure you get the point.

    No arguments as to Blizzard not using their pieces right. The sole fact that a Troll warchief was killed right before an expansion where the Zandalari allied with the Horde is just criminal. Or Nathanos being overused in the stead of other Horde characters. Or Forsaken characters that actually look like Forsaken being ignored in favor of elves and humans with skin conditions. Or the total absence of the Dwarves apart from Mr. Woons. Again, could go on forever.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    I'm automatically dismissed as an Alliance zealot, but I've been saying for a long time:

    - WC3 Horde players are pissed at their faction being dragged through the mud
    - WC2 Horde players are pissed at their faction being forced to be peaceful
    - Alliance players are pissed for their faction being treated as passive, irrelevant, and a plot device for the Horde

    The core problem is Metzen set up an impossible division in the Horde and then refused to pull the trigger. Thus, we keep swinging back and forth between the two Horde factions, with Blizz trying to cater to each. So much time is spent on the Horde that there's nothing left for the Alliance (aside from the writers openly stating they have no interest in the Alliance). Result, everyone is pissed, everyone feels they were done dirty and the other guy has it better.
    Its entirely possible to have groups with differing political views in the same faction- its called good storytelling and realistic worldbuilding. Vanilla actually incorporated this somewhat: in the Horde you had the EK/Kalmidor Rep difference and the differing outook groups like the Frostwolves and Warsong; while on the Alliance you had divisions with races (like Tyrande vs. Fandral, or the Scarlet recruiter in Stormwind) which catered both for fanatics and pacifists.
    Its turning both factions into monolithic blobs that has led to the problems we have today, because only one "version" of each faction is allowed to exist and that version was be bland enough for everyone to be (un)happy.

    As usual its Blizzard causing their own problems. There is no logical reason for example why Sylvanas would ever have become Warchief- the Forsaken could have stayed lurking in the shadows and catered to that particular fantasy without forcing the rest of the Horde to go along with it. Or Tyrande- we all know she's going to mellow in Shadowlands, but why? Why can't the Alliance be a loose confederation of states where its not Anduin's business to pacify the Night Elves?

    Its all eminently doable, but it requires Blizzard to write stories that involve more than 5 characters and more importantly it requires the two factions to be one of many identities that exist on Azeroth rather than the be all and end all of every storyline.

  19. #79
    Elemental Lord Kyphael's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    8,915
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I don't think it's generally a matter of people "taking it too seriously" as opposed to one where people tend to forget that the people on the other side of the screen are real people with real emotions, and may be understandably invested in their own opinions. It's a matter of respect, and the understandable annoyances when that respect isn't observed or respected. I don't know how many times I've heard variations on the whole "online interactions aren't real" sentiment - it's one I feel has no truth to it, and that the people who employ often do so solely to justify their own crassness.
    I'm absolutely an advocate of treating people with respect and respecting opinions opposite of my own in an open forum, but this is the internet, and more times than not, thanks to the veil of anonymity of the internet, people will not always adhere to that philosophy. At the end of the day, it's a video game, and while we're in the middle of a pandemic, no amount of grief is worth the stress if you have thin skin or is easily rattled. Sometimes, people can't always distinguish between sarcasm, joking, or simply a passionate rebuttal. When it gets to that point, the best course of action in my opinion is turning off the monitor, or just leaving the discussion. It's no different than being somewhere you don't feel comfortable outside the internet in the real world.

    This doesn't mean I think just because it's the internet I'm going to disrespect people and insult them for their opinion. I just don't think it's worth the grief if someone can't handle it. No amount of moderation in the world will spare someone's feelings if they're not thick skinned, and at the end of the day, feeling insulted by the internet is a first world problem. Life's a lot tougher than online forums, disagreements and faction loyalties in a video game.

  20. #80
    Epic! Bwonsamdi the Dead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2019
    Location
    De Other Side (Just kidding) Vancouver Island, BC
    Posts
    1,626
    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    I am of the opinion that the reason Blizzard has been able to skate by with their atrocious writing is that so many players buy into the "Who has it worse" feud with regards to the bad writing or favoritism.

    Despite the faction wars usually having some of the worst writing I've also felt that they could be some of the best if Blizzard BOTHERED to have consistency and attention to detail.

    Rather than arguing about how the In-Universe characters are dumb, or who has suffered more (Alliance for being passive and losing things to neutrality, Horde for getting villain-batted and losing characters to being raid bosses and such) we should push together for Blizz to get more in touch with its playerbase and their concerns with the lore. It's been YEARS we shouldn't still be seeing them making the same mistakes and reading people being angry about it as "Engagement".


    #LoreUnion
    Oh yes, this is one thing that I absolutely hate. Almost every Warchief we had went crazy and had to be killed or just died. Can we have a new leader who will stay alive for a little while? And can we have troll characters not get killed off too?

    I really with that would all change

    New to Mafia, sorry if I mess up!
    I see dead people.... Yes, kinda my ting, ya know

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •