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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    Wouldn't Baine just allow proxies to plunder his territories?
    Baine would have to be fixed
    Twas brillig

  2. #82
    WC3 Megathreader Lilithvia's Avatar
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    OP is right. we must reject blizzard divisiveness by giving Sylv and the entire horde a giant f you in the form of using out spaceship to level their cities. And Torghast.

  3. #83
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    - WC3 Horde players are pissed at their faction being dragged through the mud
    - WC2 Horde players are pissed at their faction being forced to be peaceful
    Wc2 horde fans liked Wc3 horde , and Wc3 horde fans liked Wc2 horde, but now neither of those groups liked the horde since mop

    what is the real problem here?

    the real problem is how Blizzard is floating to bad extremes, instead of putting something in the middle, like we had in the past, they either put the horde as a obnoxious pacifist faction or a retarded villain troop

    Same extremist problems with the alliance, they should be way more pro-active, attacking way more, like they did until mop, but once again, extremism of the alliance being the good faction of justice who can only react to the "wrongs" done to then, now they think night elves and tyrande should go full murder hobo, because they think is that what the alliance playerbase want.

    Blizzard team is completely disconnected with the playerbase, they don't know what the factions truly are/mean, and their vision is flawed, they often think some shit is so cool, but the rest of us think is shit, they are stubborn and don't want back down, they keep doing lore and a story to amuse then alone, and if some people like it its a win for then.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Wc2 horde fans liked Wc3 horde , and Wc3 horde fans liked Wc2 horde, but now neither of those groups liked the horde since mop

    what is the real problem here?

    the real problem is how Blizzard is floating to bad extremes, instead of putting something in the middle, like we had in the past, they either put the horde as a obnoxious pacifist faction or a retarded villain troop

    Same extremist problems with the alliance, they should be way more pro-active, attacking way more, like they did until mop, but once again, extremism of the alliance being the good faction of justice who can only react to the "wrongs" done to then, now they think night elves and tyrande should go full murder hobo, because they think is that what the alliance playerbase want.

    Blizzard team is completely disconnected with the playerbase, they don't know what the factions truly are/mean, and their vision is flawed, they often think some shit is so cool, but the rest of us think is shit, they are stubborn and don't want back down, they keep doing lore and a story to amuse then alone, and if some people like it its a win for then.
    You won't hear me arguing with this.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    I am of the opinion that the reason Blizzard has been able to skate by with their atrocious writing is that so many players buy into the "Who has it worse" feud with regards to the bad writing or favoritism.

    Despite the faction wars usually having some of the worst writing I've also felt that they could be some of the best if Blizzard BOTHERED to have consistency and attention to detail.

    Rather than arguing about how the In-Universe characters are dumb, or who has suffered more (Alliance for being passive and losing things to neutrality, Horde for getting villain-batted and losing characters to being raid bosses and such) we should push together for Blizz to get more in touch with its playerbase and their concerns with the lore. It's been YEARS we shouldn't still be seeing them making the same mistakes and reading people being angry about it as "Engagement".


    #LoreUnion
    I think it is not the players' call as to what direction the writing goes. Blizzard needs good writers to succeed or fail here. What Blizzard absolutely SHOULD listen to from the players would be ideas to make their characters something that appeals to the players while not trying to turn those players into things they ought not be. AS few good examples would be, say... a way to change their dance to something else, or make human females able to have bigger or smaller tits, or wider hips, or male taurens to have more head dresses and horn decoration. Addition of jewelry, tattoos, hair colors, new emotes, all good ideas. What would be a bad idea would be making orcs beautiful, undead to appear completely fine, Pandarens to look like any other type of bear, or Draenei to be 4 feet tall.

    The favoritism argument has a few flaws to it. While I admit being alliance, there are times when, especially as I am also a mount collector, that there are a number of times Horde gotten favoritism with their mounts, and I'll include two glaring examples, among one that involves Azeroth Choppers, where Horde got a mount that in order for Alliance to get the mount would need to pay 100,000 gold, and I'm not going to bitch that they got one and we didn't unless we pay for it. That should have been a promotional where both sides get the mount, because let's be honest. That was a popularity contest. The American Choppers team could have put a tricycle with some spikes on it and it would have won. It was never about which was the better made. The other, Goblins and Worgen were put in the game in Cataclysm. The Goblins got two new mounts that were trikes. Some amount of time was put into their construction, and it was at the time a unique frame. Worgens got nothing because they could run wild and serve as their own ground mount. And their solution wasn't any better, because it was a couple barebacked horses. I remember the comments section on the revealed 60 pages before I heard a neutral comment, and almost 70 before someone mentioned he/she loves horses, and we needed a bareback model in game for Alliance. Alliance was pissed off, and Horde was like, well, you lost this round, or laughing at us for our shitty horse mount, taunting, all sorts of predictable shit.
    "The fatal flaw of every plan, no matter how well planned, is the assumption that you know more than your enemy."

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenJesus View Post
    I sincerely hope that no writer ever uses polls to determine a story. One of the worst ideas I have ever heard. A story should be made from passion by the writer. I think the problem with wow is that there are so many cooks in the kitchen with the manager pulling them in different ways based on marketing.

    For example: sylvanas in BFA and legion cinematic versus Sylvanas in game.
    Not polls to determine story, polls to see what the player's FEEDBACK on the story is.
    Twas brillig

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    Posts like this, I swear. Stop projecting how you feel onto others - you do not speak for everyone that plays this game. It might seem that way to you on forums like this one, where most topics are of the 'REEEEEE WOW SUX' variety - but the amount of players posting here compared to the amount of people actually playing the game is like a drop of water in a hot tub.
    You are right.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    What if you don't think the writing is bad
    Then contribute thoughts on how to make it 'even better' if you think it's already okay/good/great or w/e.
    Twas brillig

  9. #89
    The Lightbringer Minikin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    I am of the opinion that the reason Blizzard has been able to skate by with their atrocious writing is that so many players buy into the "Who has it worse" feud with regards to the bad writing or favoritism.

    Despite the faction wars usually having some of the worst writing I've also felt that they could be some of the best if Blizzard BOTHERED to have consistency and attention to detail.

    Rather than arguing about how the In-Universe characters are dumb, or who has suffered more (Alliance for being passive and losing things to neutrality, Horde for getting villain-batted and losing characters to being raid bosses and such) we should push together for Blizz to get more in touch with its playerbase and their concerns with the lore. It's been YEARS we shouldn't still be seeing them making the same mistakes and reading people being angry about it as "Engagement".


    #LoreUnion
    said it a hundred times here. it might not have a major effect on the story but faction biased people will only have a negative effect on the story. People who type up foolishness like "i wish the alliance would wipe out the horde!" "i hope we destroy the alliance!" dont understand that its a sub based game. Similarly people who want the horde to be some evil faction while at the same time typing up blog posts on how its not actually evil just add more inefficiency to the mix.
    Blood Elves were based on a STRONG request from a poll of Asian players where many remarked on the Horde side that they and their girlfriends wanted a non-creepy femme race to play (Source)

  10. #90
    All of this "community revolting" nonsense always seems to lead to one single natural conclusion: Game design by democracy. Not only should Blizzard stop trying to tell their own story, they should make sure that all salient points of their story check out with the player approval board.

    Hell, you could even spin it from a cost-savings angle. No longer will they need to pay people to come up with ideas, just find the highest up dooted fanfiction on forums or reddit and make it a reality. What's there to lose?

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    I am of the opinion that the reason Blizzard has been able to skate by with their atrocious writing is that so many players buy into the "Who has it worse" feud with regards to the bad writing or favoritism.

    Despite the faction wars usually having some of the worst writing I've also felt that they could be some of the best if Blizzard BOTHERED to have consistency and attention to detail.

    Rather than arguing about how the In-Universe characters are dumb, or who has suffered more (Alliance for being passive and losing things to neutrality, Horde for getting villain-batted and losing characters to being raid bosses and such) we should push together for Blizz to get more in touch with its playerbase and their concerns with the lore. It's been YEARS we shouldn't still be seeing them making the same mistakes and reading people being angry about it as "Engagement".


    #LoreUnion
    Lore writers are retarded. And that's the main reason I stoped playing.
    People should simply do that. Let only people who don't care about the lore in the game, so they can still make the shittiest random Z movie scenarii.
    Last edited by Tarba; 2020-06-28 at 07:41 AM.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    Rather than arguing about how the In-Universe characters are dumb, or who has suffered more (Alliance for being passive and losing things to neutrality, Horde for getting villain-batted and losing characters to being raid bosses and such) we should push together for Blizz to get more in touch with its playerbase and their concerns with the lore. It's been YEARS we shouldn't still be seeing them making the same mistakes and reading people being angry about it as "Engagement".
    I like the sentiment, but what are you proposing? How do we get Blizzard to be more in touch with its playerbase? Is there something specific to get their attention? Flood their mailboxes with handwritten letters or the like (I'm not being sarcastic here; I've sent handwritten letters to Blizzard in the past)? We can entertain ourselves with discussions in this thread all day, but I don't feel like it will really accomplish the goal of pushing Blizzard to change anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Case in point, the only element of the playable Alliance to feature in WC3 are the Night Elves - none of the human kingdoms that are playable even up to Wrath appear at any point, the dwarves have one character with little exploration and both Quel'thalas and Lordaeron, mainstays of the WC2 Alliance, are used only as Horde. Yet to this day, people quite rightly claim a connection to these things because when they were introduced, that was who they were catered for.
    The Alliance story in RoC has direct tie-ins to the current Alliance through Jaina and Theramore. Additionally, it has been heavily implied that Bolvar Fordragon, the Regent Lord of Stormwind in Classic, was a Lordaeronian (I don't think his kingdom of origin has ever been specified, but the fact that he sent Taelia to Kul Tiras due to the Scourge suggests he's from the area around Lordaeron). Ultimately WC3 tells the story of the Horde far more than the Alliance--Alliance get the Alliance and Night Elf campaigns in RoC and Night Elf in TFT (total 3), while Horde get Horde in RoC and Alliance, Undead, and Horde in TFT (total 4)--there are still tie-ins. There's more to the factions than just the playable races.

    But yes, Horde got most of the races from WC3, particularly if you only look at the playable races in WoW.

    • Alliance - Humans (Kul Tirans playable, the rest not), Dwarves (Alliance), Elves (Horde)
    • Horde - Orcs (Horde), Tauren (Horde), Trolls (Horde)
    • Scourge - Human [Acolyte/Ghoul/Necromancer] (Horde), Abominations (Not Playable), Crypt Fiend (Not Playable), Gargoyle (Not Playable), Banshee (Not Playable), Destroyer (Not Playable), Frost Wyrm (Not Playable), Dreadlord (Not Playable)
    • Sentinels - Night Elf (Alliance), Dryad (Not Playable), Faerie Dragon (Not Playable), Mountain Giant (Not Playable), Chimaera (Not Playable), Hippogryph (Not Playable), Keeper (Not Playable)

    Alliance get three (one only given this expansion), while Horde get five.

    I'm not trying to advocate that WC3 representations are the canonical representations for all the races, but it's a good metric for understanding the initial appeal when WoW released, since from a lore point, that was pretty much all we had to go from at the time. Blizzard isn't beholden to preserving the same attraction to the races that informed players' original choices, but when the thread is about listening to the playerbase, some merit should be given to that initial draw. Forsaken can be new champions of life imbued with a profound faith and desire to exist in harmony with the living, following Calia's example, but you're going to lose those fans who liked a bleak race with little to no respect for the living and a penchant for cold pragmatism and human experimentation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    When I first started playing WoW, in what now seems like another age of humanity altogether, I was coming from the story of WC3 where the Horde had redefined itself - going from the chaotic evil Horde of WC1/WC2 to the essentially chaotic good Horde of WC3. The major shift being that the good vs. evil dichotomy no longer defined the major factions, but had graduated to one of law vs. chaos, with both sides being essentially good and desiring peaceful but separate coexistence with their own systems of values and codes of ethics. It was in that atmosphere that I chose to make my original main character a member of the Horde, as I preferred (and still prefer) chaotic good to lawful good, and the Horde felt like the more dynamic and narratively richer of the two playable factions.

    For me, the rise of Garrosh and subsequent warmongering culminating in Theramore made me seriously reevaluate that stance, and that's when I drew up my first real Alliance character and decided to take in their side of the story of WoW, so to speak. Since factionalism was on the rise I wanted to ensure I understood both sides of the story. While my main is still Horde I no longer really feel like I have a strong bias anymore, and I now play my Horde DK and my Alliance Hunter at about the same basic level. Like Saurfang within the narrative, I don't really feel as if the Horde is a force for good anymore, at least not collectively - they slipped from chaotic good to chaotic neutral for me, with Sylvanas' regime shading closer and closer to chaotic evil. That's not the really the Horde I set out to experience in the halcyon days of '04, and why I don't really evince any pronounced Horde pride (if I ever did).
    I can relate to that experience. When I started WoW, the Horde seemed to be the external monsters, while the Alliance seemed to be the internal monsters. That really drew me to the Horde, particularly coming off the way they were coded in WC3 and Classic (with the Forsaken being an exception). The Alliance started cleaning house, ousting Lady Prestor, turning Magni to diamond, and making efforts to support the Horde in the Shattering (with Baine) and into Siege of Orgrimmar (Vol'jin's rebellion), while the Horde's increased aggressiveness made me shy away from them, culminating in my swapping from a Horde main to Alliance main midway through Legion; worgen offered a good external monster to satisfy what I was looking for in a race, while the story made them seem less internal monsters than the Horde. I still care about Horde lore and have continued playing my Horde alts, but I just can't seem to invest in the faction the way I did up through the end of WoD.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Aresk View Post
    The Alliance story in RoC has direct tie-ins to the current Alliance through Jaina and Theramore. Additionally, it has been heavily implied that Bolvar Fordragon, the Regent Lord of Stormwind in Classic, was a Lordaeronian (I don't think his kingdom of origin has ever been specified, but the fact that he sent Taelia to Kul Tiras due to the Scourge suggests he's from the area around Lordaeron). Ultimately WC3 tells the story of the Horde far more than the Alliance--Alliance get the Alliance and Night Elf campaigns in RoC and Night Elf in TFT (total 3), while Horde get Horde in RoC and Alliance, Undead, and Horde in TFT (total 4)--there are still tie-ins. There's more to the factions than just the playable races.
    RoC definitely builds up the Horde more so than it does the Alliance, but it's not actually because the story is about the orcs - indeed, you can effectively cut the orcs entirely and barely affect the plot, which is far more about the night elves, Arthas and those they come into contact with. It's because the Alliance as itself has next to no role - Lordaeron, Dalaran and Kul Tiras feature, but Dalaran appears for one mission before it is eliminated, Lordaeron is entirely zombified and has its last human remnants removed by the end of TFT and Quel'thalas is tied to the Illidan plot. None of this translates directly into WoW except in the most tangential possible sense, like the example you use with Bolvar - Stormwind is never mentioned in WC3, gnomes don't exist and dwarves only have one character of any note who is a stereotype more relevant on a personal level to Arthas than as a showing of any race. With the exception of the night elves, who arguably lose out more of what made them relevant in the inclusion but beside the point, everything Alliance in Vanilla comes from before WC3. And it doesn't suffer as a result of it - on the contrary, the Alliance have a much better set of zones and story quests at then and an actual overarching nemesis and conspiracy with the Defias. The Horde's only equivalent to this is the Scarlet Crusade, which is Forsaken-exclusive. By contrast, the orcs have barely any contact with the Dark Horde and they get involved with Moira solely because it'd be a nice thing to do.

    I use Vanilla to Wrath as a benchmark because it's said to be like WC3 and was before the Horde had more of its WC2 elements return, such as orcish clans we don't immediately kill, a focus on their warlike aspect and so forth, which that particular strain of argument claims is the issue. Over time, both factions have had more and more elements return and be fleshed out, generally for the better.

    I'm not trying to advocate that WC3 representations are the canonical representations for all the races, but it's a good metric for understanding the initial appeal when WoW released, since from a lore point, that was pretty much all we had to go from at the time. Blizzard isn't beholden to preserving the same attraction to the races that informed players' original choices, but when the thread is about listening to the playerbase, some merit should be given to that initial draw. Forsaken can be new champions of life imbued with a profound faith and desire to exist in harmony with the living, following Calia's example, but you're going to lose those fans who liked a bleak race with little to no respect for the living and a penchant for cold pragmatism and human experimentation.
    This is the more relevant part and one I agree with you a lot more on - the races are products above all other things, niches for certain players. The orcs have the benefit of attracting at least two broad playerbases, that have a fair amount of overlap and like both aspects of them, since the race is still contiguous. There was a niche in the orcish playerbase that was not filled until Wrath and active attempts were made to abolish it as a playable option in Cataclysm after pretending that nothing before WC3 and its two living orcish characters existed.

    While the state of the orcs is absolutely dire right now and Mists was a travesty, the race is conceptually robust and rich enough that it can support both products especially with the Mag'har now an option. Focusing on either aspect in its entirety will piss off some of the playerbase to no real benefit. It's also why the Forsaken's changes are as dire as they are - they have been sold as one thing for fifteen years, and no amount of retcons to try and fail to make an in-story direction palatable will change the fact that it's fruit juice being to people who've got wine from this brand for a decade and a half.

    @Jastall

    I will give you the first part. Looking back at Legion, that did spectacle mostly the correct way - there was a lot of stupid shit, no doubt, but it was all in service of something that the game could generally deliver on. Even Vol'jin getting merc'd was tonally appropriate even if it was storywise a massive mistake that ended up hampering the Zandalari plot and was also unnecessary if they wanted to do a Sylvanas as Big Bad story. BFA is much more guilty of this - in aspiring to tell a more meaningful story that they aren't equipped to they fill it with extraneous boring crap, like how most of the Horde War Campaign is pointless or infuriating and that it is telling the message undercuts things. I harp on it a lot, but the bit where Rexxar has you use a bomber aircraft to drop azerite explosives on fighting troops but unlike say, the plague at Lordaeron these bombs have enough IQ to form allegiances and only target red markers is cowardice on the part of the narrative and a perfect example of this. The game can deliver self-contained emotional stories that have genuine depth to them, but the main plot has always been high camp spectacle that is best used as a backdrop to whatever's going on that has more meaning. Like Suramar with the Legion or the faction war to the conflict with Deathwing/The Lich King.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2020-06-28 at 09:51 AM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    What's there to lose?
    I know you were trying to sound smart, but given what the story has been since WoD at least, I don't think a lot would be lost if Blizzard made a sort of community pageant. I don't think it would actually be any worse than the terrible (imo) levels of fanfiction of BfA.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Manariel View Post
    Mnor tidbit - you care about highborns, not Night Elves.
    Highborne ARE Night elves. I care about Highborne because I care about night elves.
    (I believe I answered you more fully earlier)
    Valewalker Farodin:

    "Magic has long been a vice of the elves. It shaped us, and lifted us out of the darkness - but without balance, it also threatens to unmake us."

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Highborne ARE Night elves. I care about Highborne because I care about night elves.
    (I believe I answered you more fully earlier)
    Night elves are as highborne as blood elves are, i.e. it really doesn't mean a lot. NEs proper in WoW appeared in WC3, and they were described as this rigid, theocratic, matriarchal society, averse to arcane (and with good reason, mind you) and quite xenophobic. Actually, the whole NE/BE opposition could be described as anti-arcane vs pro-arcane elves. By making the arcane a major element of a hypothetic new NE society, you are pretty much likening them to BEs/highborne, even better - since they've never had to suffer from magical withdrawal, a major them for both.

    In other words, it would be "all the advantages without the disadvantages", while also stealing a major theme from other races. It's as if e.g. Dwarves were described as the best, fiercest, most bloodthirsty warriors ever, while keeping everything else unchanged. They'd get to steal one of the major selling points of Orcs (in this example) without the disadvantage of a militaristic society.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    I know you were trying to sound smart, but given what the story has been since WoD at least, I don't think a lot would be lost if Blizzard made a sort of community pageant. I don't think it would actually be any worse than the terrible (imo) levels of fanfiction of BfA.
    This is a terrible fucking idea. Here's a better one, though: If you don't like the story (or the direction its taking), don't buy the fucking game.

  18. #98
    Don't let the community write the story, God please don't. Most people in here have no clue of how basic storytelling works. Especially Sylvanas fanboys.
    We each walk a line. Choose yours.

  19. #99
    Warchief Tuor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Night elves are as highborne as blood elves are, i.e. it really doesn't mean a lot.
    Not really. The race of both Night Elfs and Highborne is the same, they Kaldorei. The Blood Elfs do descent from Kaldorei Highborne but they shifted into a diferent race, they became the Sindorei.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Night elves are as highborne as blood elves are, i.e. it really doesn't mean a lot. NEs proper in WoW appeared in WC3, and they were described as this rigid, theocratic, matriarchal society, averse to arcane (and with good reason, mind you) and quite xenophobic. Actually, the whole NE/BE opposition could be described as anti-arcane vs pro-arcane elves. By making the arcane a major element of a hypothetic new NE society, you are pretty much likening them to BEs/highborne, even better - since they've never had to suffer from magical withdrawal, a major them for both.

    In other words, it would be "all the advantages without the disadvantages", while also stealing a major theme from other races. It's as if e.g. Dwarves were described as the best, fiercest, most bloodthirsty warriors ever, while keeping everything else unchanged. They'd get to steal one of the major selling points of Orcs (in this example) without the disadvantage of a militaristic society.
    No, that's not true, Blood elves are as Highborne as they are night elven. Because Highborne became a race, and that race has it's own name, Highborne as its meaning goes is purely Night elven. Now the Sunstrider Highborne descendants that are now are race, you tie to the highborne, but as much as you tie to the night elf the Highborne is. they're as much Highborne as they are night elves.

    Are you trying to say that the e xistence of night elven highborne is stealing a major theme from the blood elves? If so then you don't understand what the Highborne are and you are assuming blood elves are highborne - rather than a new highborne culture/race of their own. - in which case how can night elves who are highborne and have that facet of them be "stealing a theme"

    What is the blood elf theme? Red, golds, daylight, the Light, the sun, arcane magic, magical city, magical forest.

    Exactly what of this do they share with Highborne as a separate group and what do they share with Night elves as a whole? Ans? is Arcane magic, magical city, magical forest - shared with both Highborne and Night elf as they are as a whole now.

    The arcane, and magical elven city is not an exclusive theme or purview to blood elves and horde elves. It originates in the night elf and is a significant part of what makes the night elf a night elf - even though the arcane users amongst the Darnassian faction aren't that many. You really can't accuse an elf group of stealing the theme from an elf group , especially it's parent group it is supposed to come from and suppose to have attributes from it.

    From the night elves, the blood elves receive arcane mastery and ability and Ranger forestry ability and mastery. They learnt the light on their own, and share that with humans. The day, the sun, the red gold motiffs and tehir architecture, that's all their own. The highborne don't have any of those things amongst them.
    Valewalker Farodin:

    "Magic has long been a vice of the elves. It shaped us, and lifted us out of the darkness - but without balance, it also threatens to unmake us."

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