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  1. #101
    Legendary! Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    This is a terrible fucking idea. Here's a better one, though: If you don't like the story (or the direction its taking), don't buy the fucking game.
    I will buy whatever the !@#$ I want, and will write whatever the !@#$ I want about it wherever the !@#$ I want. And the best part is that you are powerless to stop me
    Quote Originally Posted by Danuser
    we created a story structure for Sylvanas that, on the surface, echoed many broad strokes of the road Garrosh took (...). These parallels were intentional. But it's within the nuance that we sought to show the story grow and change.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    BFA was about as nuanced as a golf club to the testicles/ovaries.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    I will buy whatever the !@#$ I want, and will write whatever the !@#$ I want about it wherever the !@#$ I want. And the best part is that you are powerless to stop me
    Did I ever say you couldn't? Holy shit bro. Calm down.

  3. #103
    Legendary! Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuor View Post
    Not really. The race of both Night Elfs and Highborne is the same, they Kaldorei. The Blood Elfs do descent from Kaldorei Highborne but they shifted into a diferent race, they became the Sindorei.
    The differences are political/ideological, rather than biological. As we can easily infer, Bob is very busy banging Thalyssra, something that wouldn't be endorsed publicly if they belonged to different species (exception of human+high elf, because for some reason that's cool).
    Quote Originally Posted by Danuser
    we created a story structure for Sylvanas that, on the surface, echoed many broad strokes of the road Garrosh took (...). These parallels were intentional. But it's within the nuance that we sought to show the story grow and change.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    BFA was about as nuanced as a golf club to the testicles/ovaries.

  4. #104
    Warchief Tuor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    The differences are political/ideological, rather than biological. As we can easily infer, Bob is very busy banging Thalyssra, something that wouldn't be endorsed publicly if they belonged to different species (exception of human+high elf, because for some reason that's cool).
    We know they a diferent species because Nordrassil didn't granted imortalaty to any of the Sindorei group. But the tree did granted imortality to both NElfs and Highborne (that is the real reason why the highborne rejoined NElfs).

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Don't let the community write the story, God please don't. Most people in here have no clue of how basic storytelling works. Especially Sylvanas fanboys.
    No one is suggesting Blizz let the community writr the story, just that they address some of the more glaring issues, like Baine...
    Twas brillig

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Zentail View Post
    I can never understand why Blizzard's writing is so "bad." I've read a lot of books. I've watched a lot of movies/TV shows. I'm played a lot of games. And Warcraft's story is one of my all-time favorites.

    Genuine question, those of you who don't like the writing, what is an example of something that you would consider good and why? Warcraft has story holes, but so does everything else I've seen. There's lots of back and forth non-sensible stuff, but so does everything else that is a long-running story. I just honestly don't understand why Warcraft is allegedly "so bad" despite it doing exactly what everyone else does, but in my personal opinion, better. I can count on one hand the number of things I didn't really like whereas it far exceeds that with other stories.
    I admit, I have never read one the the Warcraft books. But i read the abstracts and from that I got the feeling that those books were made for children. Especially the newer ones. The writing style, the dialogues (Anduin is the worst offender here, don't get me wrong, I like him as a figure, but his dialogues are sometimes incredibly cringeworthy), the absolutely direct way in which everything gets described... I don't know. I have read many youth books in my life and I would consider the warcraft books the lightest among them. They seem to be easy reads. Does not fit my taste.

    Then there is the story of WoW. You just feel that the story is especially written to fit an MMORPG. Things like Belfs joining the Horde after fighting trolls and undead for millennia just to give the Horde a beautiful race. The ongoing conflicts between Alliance and Horde, which cannot get resolved, because of gameplay limitations. It makes sense in the game, but not for the sake of the story.
    Glaring oversights like the (absence of the) Vindicaar. You know that those are just expansion limited features. Again, okay in a (multiplayer) game, but absolutely not for a coherent story.

    Then there's the fact that Warcraft went back to Orcs vs Humans, with some other characters appearing at the side. Nearly every Alliance story focusses around humans. Most of the Horde story around Orcs (Sylvannas is the exception here). But honestly, I would consider Sylvannas a human at this point, just in another body.
    Ans that's my biggest gripe with the Warcraft story as a whole. Every character is pretty humanized. Even undead have feelings. Elves think and act like humans. Their incredible age, their sometimes 10000 years of experience is never brought up. They just behave like humans and treat them as equals. Orcs are humans with honor. Gnomes, goblins and dwarfs are smart, crafty humans.

    Numbers don't matter either in WoW. War upon War upon War. The Horde being nearly extinct, which is their reason to band together? Mild inconvenience. 90% of all Highelves dead? Who cares! Every life is pretty much irrelevant anyway.

    Yeah, that's the rule of cool. But it's absolutely atrocious storytelling and worldbuilding.

    Bottom line is: I value world and story integrity. Two things that had to be abandoned with WoW and that get abandoned more and more as new writers take over. Letting multiple writers write one character will never have a good outcome.

    Oh, for something that I consider good:
    I liked Arthas' story in W3. He was a tragic hero, in the Greek sense, he had really difficult decision to make and his ambition got the best of him at last, as he was slowly more and more corrupted. There's really nothing that compares to him in WoW.
    Maybe Anduin. I like him as well. He has equally hard decisions to make: After realizing the value of peace in Pandaria, he repeatedly had to forgive his enemies and fight his own allies to achieve his goal. I see honestly like him, he is the "reverse" Arthas in some sense.

    Don't be confused by my criticism: There are many beautiful or interesting (short) stories in WoW. But the mainstory really falls flat in comparison and within the greater picture.
    Last edited by LordVargK; 2020-06-28 at 11:04 PM.

  7. #107
    Legendary! Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordVargK View Post
    Letting multiple writers write one character will never have a good outcome.
    Especially when the newest batch of writers seem to just dgaf about what those before them did, and start dropping hard retcons on pretty much every major character and factions. Sylvanas and the Forsaken are perhaps the most glaring examples.

    On another subject, it's evident that no faction can truly win in a faction war. But in early WoW, writers had managed to make the AvH stuff a little more believable, e.g. the bits of story for Vanilla's BGs. It was only during MoP that they abandoned any pretense of nuance and went the easy way: Alliance => good, Horde => bad.

    I agree with the part about Warcraft books though. The only one I found actually interesting was Illidan, by King. But most of Golden's stuff is quite eye rolling, as is EVERYTHING of Knaak's. Rhonin and his army of !@#$ing raptors? Give me a break, dude.
    Quote Originally Posted by Danuser
    we created a story structure for Sylvanas that, on the surface, echoed many broad strokes of the road Garrosh took (...). These parallels were intentional. But it's within the nuance that we sought to show the story grow and change.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    BFA was about as nuanced as a golf club to the testicles/ovaries.

  8. #108
    Old God HighlordJohnstone's Avatar
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    I'm going to put this entire situation into a summary you can understand:

    Faction Wars suck in general. They sucked in Classic. They made NO fucking sense in WoTLK and TBC. They were forced in Cata, and WoD. They were cringe as fuck in MoP. And don't get me STARTED on Legion/BFA.

    This is why the lore is good when the attention isn't focused on the Alliance/Horde conflict. Whether it be the Shadowlands, N'Zoth (Ik he was rushed, but hear me out), the Legion, etc, the lore was always amazing there. The LK was a great villain with a perfect build-up and execution. The Legion threat was handled well, despite it feeling rushed. The first half of WoD was STELLAR until Blizzard gave up on the expansion as well as anything relating to do with AU Draenor. The Azshara, Wrathion, and N'Zoth plots were good for what they were, EXCEPT for the last portion of it (Was the cringiest shit I've seen in my life). And overall, the lore for those situations were nice.

    I think Blizzard's come to accept this, which is why the Alliance and Horde are now in an armistice.

    - - - Updated - - -

    "But they were in peace before"

    In MoP, almost no treaty was signed. The Alliance and Horde decided to just not fuck around with each-other for a bit. And then, after a couple months, or years and shit, maybe peace would be an option. Here, in BFA, an actual fucking treaty exists for the first time ever...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Only took them WAY too many fucking wars to get this shit done right.

    - - - Updated - - -

    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Garrosh_Hellscream_(tactics) See, they planned an armistice. Or at least a treaty, and they were preparing for a new beginning: Something we saw a small amount on at the beginning of Legion, but that shit never fully gave way.

    As you can tell: Ashran exists, Alliance and Horde tensions were still slightly going, and after the Broken shore, the Alliance/Horde war practically started again. And in the middle of a Legion invasion no less.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Zentail View Post
    I can never understand why Blizzard's writing is so "bad." I've read a lot of books. I've watched a lot of movies/TV shows. I'm played a lot of games. And Warcraft's story is one of my all-time favorites.

    Genuine question, those of you who don't like the writing, what is an example of something that you would consider good and why? Warcraft has story holes, but so does everything else I've seen. There's lots of back and forth non-sensible stuff, but so does everything else that is a long-running story. I just honestly don't understand why Warcraft is allegedly "so bad" despite it doing exactly what everyone else does, but in my personal opinion, better. I can count on one hand the number of things I didn't really like whereas it far exceeds that with other stories.
    Some good examples: The outcasts in vol'dun, especially the Goldtusk gang, were fun. As were the Unshackled and the flavor around the various Loa. The goblin squad and Forsaken squad in Nazmir too. Everything about the Throne of Thunder and the Mantid. While a terrible concept the Nightborne were executed well. The Redpath quest in Vanilla was good, as was the Fallen Hero of the Horde chain from that time period. The Cipher of Damnation questline in TBC was fantastic. The cata Southern-Barrens questline was alright.




    Some bad examples: Baine saying that "Taurajo was a viable target". Thrall putting Gallywix in charge in Cata. The Horde going along with Sylvanas in BFA. The Burning of Teldrassil essentially being used as a plot device to start the war and barely mentioned by the Horde afterwards. Baine having stronger ties to the Alliance than he does the Horde. Rexxar saying Jaina had 'killed too many' and that he had to oppose her in Stormsong despite that not... making any sense. Everything about WoD's time travel nonsense. The Wrathgate. Garrosh turning into an evil racist rather than maturing.

    The "War Crimes" Novel making it so that the Celestials were judging Tyrande... for... being mad that Garrosh tried to commit genocide against her people...? (Seriously wtf?)
    Twas brillig

  10. #110
    Legendary! Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    I think Blizzard's come to accept this, which is why the Alliance and Horde are now in an armistice.
    An armistice, not a peace treaty, which means that technically they are still at war. Writers definitely didn't want to close the door at the possibility of a MoP 3.0. If Baine is ever dead/deposed/exiled, or otherwise indisposed - you will know that MoP 3.0 is coming.
    Quote Originally Posted by Danuser
    we created a story structure for Sylvanas that, on the surface, echoed many broad strokes of the road Garrosh took (...). These parallels were intentional. But it's within the nuance that we sought to show the story grow and change.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    BFA was about as nuanced as a golf club to the testicles/ovaries.

  11. #111
    Old God HighlordJohnstone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    An armistice, not a peace treaty, which means that technically they are still at war. Writers definitely didn't want to close the door at the possibility of a MoP 3.0. If Baine is ever dead/deposed/exiled, or otherwise indisposed - you will know that MoP 3.0 is coming.
    Don't expect anything relating to a MoP 3.0 at all? It's clear as day that the Light/Shadow conflict is coming right after this shit. Idk why people keep arguing factions, when the entire point of BFA was so Blizzard could stop the main Alliance/Horde conflict, as well as end the Black Empire threat once and for all.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    I am of the opinion that the reason Blizzard has been able to skate by with their atrocious writing is that so many players buy into the "Who has it worse" feud with regards to the bad writing or favoritism.

    Despite the faction wars usually having some of the worst writing I've also felt that they could be some of the best if Blizzard BOTHERED to have consistency and attention to detail.

    Rather than arguing about how the In-Universe characters are dumb, or who has suffered more (Alliance for being passive and losing things to neutrality, Horde for getting villain-batted and losing characters to being raid bosses and such) we should push together for Blizz to get more in touch with its playerbase and their concerns with the lore. It's been YEARS we shouldn't still be seeing them making the same mistakes and reading people being angry about it as "Engagement".


    #LoreUnion
    Can you people ffs stop about calling the story "bad writing"? It is sooo obvious that people like you are just triggered that X hasn't happened like you wanted or Y character does something you don't want it to and that's it. Just because they story doesn't go your way, it doesn't give you any right to straight up discredit all the writers and call them incompetent.

  13. #113
    Legendary! Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    Don't expect anything relating to a MoP 3.0 at all? It's clear as day that the Light/Shadow conflict is coming right after this shit. Idk why people keep arguing factions, when the entire point of BFA was so Blizzard could stop the main Alliance/Horde conflict, as well as end the Black Empire threat once and for all.
    I remember many folks singing the same song after MoP, just with the Legion instead of Light/Void. Oh the naivety...
    Quote Originally Posted by Danuser
    we created a story structure for Sylvanas that, on the surface, echoed many broad strokes of the road Garrosh took (...). These parallels were intentional. But it's within the nuance that we sought to show the story grow and change.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    BFA was about as nuanced as a golf club to the testicles/ovaries.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertMugabe View Post
    Can you people ffs stop about calling the story "bad writing"? It is sooo obvious that people like you are just triggered that X hasn't happened like you wanted or Y character does something you don't want it to and that's it. Just because they story doesn't go your way, it doesn't give you any right to straight up discredit all the writers and call them incompetent.
    So in your opinion... Cala and Baine are good writing...?

    Rexxar going "Jaina has killed too many..." when that makes zero sense... is good writing?

    The retread of Garrosh's arc with Sylv is... good writing in your mind?
    Twas brillig

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    So in your opinion... Cala and Baine are good writing...?

    Rexxar going "Jaina has killed too many..." when that makes zero sense... is good writing?

    The retread of Garrosh's arc with Sylv is... good writing in your mind?
    It's another variant on the "you pointed out the problems, there's no easy fix, shut up" posts you see so often in Blizzard's defense across all the MMO-C fora. Not worth taking seriously.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I'll buy an Anduin shirt if Delaryn doesn't end up betraying Sylvanas by the end of the expansion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    I am of the opinion that the reason Blizzard has been able to skate by with their atrocious writing is that so many players buy into the "Who has it worse" feud with regards to the bad writing or favoritism.

    Despite the faction wars usually having some of the worst writing I've also felt that they could be some of the best if Blizzard BOTHERED to have consistency and attention to detail.

    Rather than arguing about how the In-Universe characters are dumb, or who has suffered more (Alliance for being passive and losing things to neutrality, Horde for getting villain-batted and losing characters to being raid bosses and such) we should push together for Blizz to get more in touch with its playerbase and their concerns with the lore. It's been YEARS we shouldn't still be seeing them making the same mistakes and reading people being angry about it as "Engagement".


    #LoreUnion
    I'll be honest: I don't think the writing is as bad as people make it out to be. And i honestly believe, that most people also don't have a problem with it. People just don't tend to go on the forums to tell you that.

    I like what they do with sylvanas. I just don't like the drip feeding of mystery upon mystery. Something has to be resolved at some point an the big mistake of BFA was that they basically did not tell us anything

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    I like what they do with sylvanas.
    You mean what they did in BfA, when they changed her ultimate motivations like three times in a row? Turning her into a cringey, moustache-twirling evil Mary Sue, hard retconning everything about her and the Forsaken, so that writers could drop their message about how war is bad, and we should be eternally ashamed of resorting to it, in a game called Warcraft?
    Quote Originally Posted by Danuser
    we created a story structure for Sylvanas that, on the surface, echoed many broad strokes of the road Garrosh took (...). These parallels were intentional. But it's within the nuance that we sought to show the story grow and change.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    BFA was about as nuanced as a golf club to the testicles/ovaries.

  18. #118
    Old God HighlordJohnstone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    I remember many folks singing the same song after MoP, just with the Legion instead of Light/Void. Oh the naivety...
    Except the entire point of MoP was to just stop Garrosh, and save Pandaria from the Sha...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Hell, MoP ended with a "POTENTIAL" peace, that ended off with Wrathion mocking Varian and saying that this shit won't help us in the battles to come. Meanwhile, in BFA, the "potential" peace seems pretty fine tbh, with only Talanji, Rokhan, and Tyrande really disagreeing with it.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    Except the entire point of MoP was to just stop Garrosh, and save Pandaria from the Sha...
    And the entire point of BfA was to stop Sylvanas, and save Azeroth from N'Zoth...
    Quote Originally Posted by Danuser
    we created a story structure for Sylvanas that, on the surface, echoed many broad strokes of the road Garrosh took (...). These parallels were intentional. But it's within the nuance that we sought to show the story grow and change.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    BFA was about as nuanced as a golf club to the testicles/ovaries.

  20. #120
    I'm not interested in reading 6 pages just to see if someone else has already said it, so I'm just going to say it:

    Blizzard has been able to "skate by" for a couple of reasons.
    1. The writing isn't actually as bad as the people in this subforum like to suggest.
    2. Your average player simply doesn't care.

    That's it. Your average player is playing this game to play with friends or to have fun with guildies/by themselves. The storyline is just flavor on top of that experience. This isn't a novelized series with a diehard fanbase that freaks out when the writer(s) forget established details -- it's a video game with a wide range of interests that fall primarily in the "interested in fun" zone and not the "deeply interested in the story" zone.

    The writing in this game is never going to be aimed at the crowd that goes to college/university for literature. You aren't going to hear WoW brought up in comparison to Jane Austen or F. Scott Fitzgerald. WoW's is the kind of story where you benefit most from being willing to turn off those hyper-critical parts of your brain. If that's not something you're capable of doing, then, quite frankly, you'd benefit most from letting go because, otherwise, you're only ever going to be disappointed.
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