Page 1 of 7
1
2
3
... LastLast
  1. #1

    Angry Players Must Reject Blizzard Divisiveness

    I am of the opinion that the reason Blizzard has been able to skate by with their atrocious writing is that so many players buy into the "Who has it worse" feud with regards to the bad writing or favoritism.

    Despite the faction wars usually having some of the worst writing I've also felt that they could be some of the best if Blizzard BOTHERED to have consistency and attention to detail.

    Rather than arguing about how the In-Universe characters are dumb, or who has suffered more (Alliance for being passive and losing things to neutrality, Horde for getting villain-batted and losing characters to being raid bosses and such) we should push together for Blizz to get more in touch with its playerbase and their concerns with the lore. It's been YEARS we shouldn't still be seeing them making the same mistakes and reading people being angry about it as "Engagement".


    #LoreUnion
    Twas brillig

  2. #2
    I'm automatically dismissed as an Alliance zealot, but I've been saying for a long time:

    - WC3 Horde players are pissed at their faction being dragged through the mud
    - WC2 Horde players are pissed at their faction being forced to be peaceful
    - Alliance players are pissed for their faction being treated as passive, irrelevant, and a plot device for the Horde

    The core problem is Metzen set up an impossible division in the Horde and then refused to pull the trigger. Thus, we keep swinging back and forth between the two Horde factions, with Blizz trying to cater to each. So much time is spent on the Horde that there's nothing left for the Alliance (aside from the writers openly stating they have no interest in the Alliance). Result, everyone is pissed, everyone feels they were done dirty and the other guy has it better.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    I'm automatically dismissed as an Alliance zealot, but I've been saying for a long time:

    - WC3 Horde players are pissed at their faction being dragged through the mud
    - WC2 Horde players are pissed at their faction being forced to be peaceful
    - Alliance players are pissed for their faction being treated as passive, irrelevant, and a plot device for the Horde

    The core problem is Metzen set up an impossible division in the Horde and then refused to pull the trigger. Thus, we keep swinging back and forth between the two Horde factions, with Blizz trying to cater to each. So much time is spent on the Horde that there's nothing left for the Alliance (aside from the writers openly stating they have no interest in the Alliance). Result, everyone is pissed, everyone feels they were done dirty and the other guy has it better.
    Exactly, but it's not as difficult to reconcile the Horde's two directions as people make it out to be, Blizz has just made it seem difficult because they've failed so much.
    Twas brillig

  4. #4
    WC2 Horde players shouldn't even exist. It was made clear in WC3 that the Horde is trying to improve after decades spent doing the Legion's dirty work. That's the very core of the faction. Blizzard should stop trying to cater to these people who still live in 1995. Hopefully there will never be a Garrosh 3.0 in the future.
    We each walk a line. Choose yours.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    I am of the opinion that the reason Blizzard has been able to skate by with their atrocious writing is that so many players buy into the "Who has it worse" feud with regards to the bad writing or favoritism.

    Despite the faction wars usually having some of the worst writing I've also felt that they could be some of the best if Blizzard BOTHERED to have consistency and attention to detail.

    Rather than arguing about how the In-Universe characters are dumb, or who has suffered more (Alliance for being passive and losing things to neutrality, Horde for getting villain-batted and losing characters to being raid bosses and such) we should push together for Blizz to get more in touch with its playerbase and their concerns with the lore. It's been YEARS we shouldn't still be seeing them making the same mistakes and reading people being angry about it as "Engagement".


    #LoreUnion
    It's a good point, but the problem is people, watch this thread descend into fighting, Instead of coming g together. Blizzard have pushed this divide in their narrative. Fans take sides of their favourite, but forget they are not living in the game and have 3rd person view, so they can put aside the bickering g and unite to insist on a better narrative.


    Problem is, when people like me suggest a better narrative, focusing on my race, Instead of hordies going "hey, I like that night elves come off better, here is what I'd like to do for Tauren and Nightborne, " they instead attack me and what I suggest in what I can only conclude is an "I dont want your guys to look better than mine , so no" attitude. I noticed a particular bunch of horde fans has been doing this a lot, promoting g that divisiveness instead of cohesion, high elf discussions epitomised this.

    It's a mentality they have to shake, I care about nelves so obviously I write pieces on them, they'd rather knock that than come up with interesting or more thorough variations of what blizzard writes for the races they like.

    Until they can overcome this , what you propose wouldn go very far.
    Valewalker Farodin:

    "Magic has long been a vice of the elves. It shaped us, and lifted us out of the darkness - but without balance, it also threatens to unmake us."

  6. #6
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Jaina Proudmoore's side. Always and forever.
    Posts
    41,612
    If people want to be bloodthirsty they can go elsewhere, No Blue Horde, sorry that the Horde has to go through its "BACK IN THE GOOD DAYS WE PILLAGED AND WER MONSTERS, GOOD TIMES" but don't force it on everyone else.
    #TeamLegion #UnderEarthofAzerothexpansion plz #Arathor4Alliance

    Warrior-Magi

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    WC2 Horde players shouldn't even exist. It was made clear in WC3 that the Horde is trying to improve after decades spent doing the Legion's dirty work. That's the very core of the faction. Blizzard should stop trying to cater to these people who still live in 1995. Hopefully there will never be a Garrosh 3.0 in the future.
    I dont get how people even make this connection with wc2 and wc3 horde with today,that horde is long dead,thrall wasnt even born or was a baby if i recall,also development wise the horde wasnt even yett planned as a faction when warcraft 3 came out,it could have gone tottaly different with the races not being part of any locked in faction

  8. #8
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA-US
    Posts
    32,075
    You're fighting an uphill battle against people's natural tendency to form cliques, tribes, and factions unfortunately. I don't disagree with the sentiment but you'll find that the people who don't have some kind of faction identity to be a general rarity - and probably not the most involved in the actual game story, to boot. The more enmeshed or involved you with enjoying or being interested in the Warcraft narrative universe the more likely it is that you carry an essential bias one way or the other, be it for the Horde or the Alliance. The game is designed to foster that kind of set-identification as well.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  9. #9
    Warcraft 3 is no more a sacred horse than Warcraft 2 - the shift in Wrath and Cataclysm towards a more warlike Horde that hearkened back to the elements that Warcraft 3 had shafted was a direct result of both player demand as a result of how passive the faction was and the lack of inter-faction conflict and what a narrative wasteland Thrall's orcs were given that they had about three characters and had resolved the only two stories you could tell with people who have no internal conflict or issues in Warcraft 3 - that being tying up the Legion loose end with Mannoroth and Grom and tying up the Alliance don't believe we're good boys storyline with Daelin. What works in a multi-faction RTS doesn't work in a two faction MMO.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    You're fighting an uphill battle against people's natural tendency to form cliques, tribes, and factions unfortunately. I don't disagree with the sentiment but you'll find that the people who don't have some kind of faction identity to be a general rarity - and probably not the most involved in the actual game story, to boot. The more enmeshed or involved you with enjoying or being interested in the Warcraft narrative universe the more likely it is that you carry an essential bias one way or the other, be it for the Horde or the Alliance. The game is designed to foster that kind of set-identification as well.
    What we need to push is that people can absolutely back the "lore" friction and divisiveness, like enjoying the faction war or things like that, but still unite with other players and acknowledge when the writing is bad without it turning into a measuring contest for who has it worse.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Warcraft 3 is no more a sacred horse than Warcraft 2 - the shift in Wrath and Cataclysm towards a more warlike Horde that hearkened back to the elements that Warcraft 3 had shafted was a direct result of both player demand .
    I don't believe this is true. People wanting there to be better reasons to fight the Alliance are NOT the same as people wanting to be evil, and most importantly, Blizz has never said this was the result of player input.


    Even if it was at the time, it's clear it has not panned out and we as a playerbase need to move forward and demand a more refined, more detailed, storytelling.
    Twas brillig

  11. #11
    Garrosh was a very unpopular character back then, so much so that the vast majority of Horde players couldn't fathom why Blizzard would replace Thrall, such an iconic character, with Garrosh, who was a dick for the entirety of WotLK. The Horde fanbase very clearly was not interested in the world conquest that Garrosh offered. It is therefore not a surprise that Blizzard quickly got rid of Garrosh.
    We each walk a line. Choose yours.

  12. #12
    Pandaren Monk taishar68's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Las Vegas, NV USA
    Posts
    1,982
    I really don’t think a large enough portion of WoW players are passionate enough about the lore to make Blizzard re-evaluate the writing arcs. I’m not saying they don’t work hard at, or that they don’t care at all, I just think if something does not impact the amount of people playing, it becomes less of a priority in terms of responding to feedback.

    Not to mention that writing is such a subjective medium, and I get the sense that if the folks involved in the process are all happy it seems unlikely to me they would make any wholesale changes.
    "Can't you see this is the last act of a desperate man?"
    "We don't care if it's the last act of Henry the Fifth, we're leaving!"

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    I don't believe this is true. People wanting there to be better reasons to fight the Alliance are NOT the same as people wanting to be evil, and most importantly, Blizz has never said this was the result of player input.


    Even if it was at the time, it's clear it has not panned out and we as a playerbase need to move forward and demand a more refined, more detailed, storytelling.
    The War in Warcraft thing is a meme now, but it was verbatim the reasoning given by Blizzard to amp up the faction war in Wrath and going into Cataclysm. Thrall himself was extremely popular at the time, and Garrosh very unpopular, but the overall direction of the Horde away from Noblesavage Incorporated was the result of a popular push. One that has panned out, Thrall and Garrosh consistently tie on polls and in terms of player reaction on basically every platform the game is discussed.

    On the latter point I agree, but the argument made about Warcraft 3 being the definitive version of the factions is nonsense and most of the people championing it don't actually believe it, they're just trying to score points against an opposing fanbase, since they themselves don't touch the noblesavage playable races with a ten foot pole. Case in point, the only element of the playable Alliance to feature in WC3 are the Night Elves - none of the human kingdoms that are playable even up to Wrath appear at any point, the dwarves have one character with little exploration and both Quel'thalas and Lordaeron, mainstays of the WC2 Alliance, are used only as Horde. Yet to this day, people quite rightly claim a connection to these things because when they were introduced, that was who they were catered for.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  14. #14
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA-US
    Posts
    32,075
    Quote Originally Posted by taishar68 View Post
    I really don’t think a large enough portion of WoW players are passionate enough about the lore to make Blizzard re-evaluate the writing arcs. I’m not saying they don’t work hard at, or that they don’t care at all, I just think if something does not impact the amount of people playing, it becomes less of a priority in terms of responding to feedback.

    Not to mention that writing is such a subjective medium, and I get the sense that if the folks involved in the process are all happy it seems unlikely to me they would make any wholesale changes.
    I've always considered that posting regularly in the lore forum for a given game basically implies you have a preset level of passion - enough that you'll actually enter into conversation to discuss the story of a video game. If you don't really care about said game, it seems unlikely that anyone would really do that, at least to me.

    That is one thing that's kind of always confused me, actually. There are a *lot* of people on this subforum who are very vocal about this distaste or dislike of the game's story, and yet very regularly participate in the various conversations surrounding it. If you don't like it or aren't interested in it, it seems odd to me that you'd essentially waste your time talking about it as opposed to doing something else you actually enjoy. I mean, people are free to do whatever they like at the end of the day, but that still seems weird to me.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  15. #15
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    The forums
    Posts
    35,719
    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    ... get more in touch with its playerbase and their concerns with the lore. ....
    Is there any data (like poll or a megathread) on where I can read up and get up to date what "the playerbase" (whatever the f... that is) wants? Other than some sort of vague vibe you get from the few ppl that agree with your own sentiments on forums or youtube.

    What are the concerns in concrete terms?

  16. #16
    I've enjoyed the story in legion and BFA. I'm no author nor have I got any degree when it comes to writing lore or stories, thus I cannot say if the writing is bad or good. All I can say is that I've enjoyed the storylines in quests and cinematics quite a lot from a gameplay perspective.
    Hi

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Garrosh was a very unpopular character back then, so much so that the vast majority of Horde players couldn't fathom why Blizzard would replace Thrall, such an iconic character, with Garrosh, who was a dick for the entirety of WotLK. The Horde fanbase very clearly was not interested in the world conquest that Garrosh offered. It is therefore not a surprise that Blizzard quickly got rid of Garrosh.
    Speak for yourself. There are so many people that wants same thing that Garrosh wanted.
    People who don't like things are just more loud. Same with Vol'jin or Sylvanas or even Thrall. All of them use some agenda that some people like.
    There are people who want united faction and people who hate Alliance as real enemy.

  18. #18
    Pandaren Monk taishar68's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Las Vegas, NV USA
    Posts
    1,982
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I've always considered that posting regularly in the lore forum for a given game basically implies you have a preset level of passion - enough that you'll actually enter into conversation to discuss the story of a video game. If you don't really care about said game, it seems unlikely that anyone would really do that, at least to me.

    That is one thing that's kind of always confused me, actually. There are a *lot* of people on this subforum who are very vocal about this distaste or dislike of the game's story, and yet very regularly participate in the various conversations surrounding it. If you don't like it or aren't interested in it, it seems odd to me that you'd essentially waste your time talking about it as opposed to doing something else you actually enjoy. I mean, people are free to do whatever they like at the end of the day, but that still seems weird to me.
    I wasn’t trying to impugn anyone who is passionate about lore; I am fairly passionate about the lore and story myself, I just don’t think there is a large enough portion of the player base that cares deeply enough about game lore and story to make Blizzard change story arc direction, as the OP suggests should happen by our active feedback.
    "Can't you see this is the last act of a desperate man?"
    "We don't care if it's the last act of Henry the Fifth, we're leaving!"

  19. #19
    @taishar68

    This is the correct take. While we bitch here, it's mostly an exercise for the fun of it. The only times changes are done on story bases is when there's a proper outcry across multiple channels where even people tangentially interested in the lore get salty about something. In as much as anyone here can do anything it's to draw attention and magnify these things - from Vol'jin's dialogue with the Alliance player in 5.3 to more recent examples like Tyrande's Silence in WoD, the Darkshore rewrites or the entire loyalist questline. Most of these things are entirely cosmetic, but they are the kind of changes that happen after outcry.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  20. #20
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Land of human potential (and non-toxic masculinity)
    Posts
    22,606
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I've always considered that posting regularly in the lore forum for a given game basically implies you have a preset level of passion - enough that you'll actually enter into conversation to discuss the story of a video game. If you don't really care about said game, it seems unlikely that anyone would really do that, at least to me.
    I would argue that for many of us, said passion was completely brutalised by blizzard in past few years.

    Hell, i don't even want to mock the writing and story anymore because its so bad its just not fun anymore.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •