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  1. #41
    Tbh i'm fine with m+ being a gear treadmill. Everything else is just annoying bloat that essentially makes it impossible to make new alts unless you're playing them as consistently as your main from the beginning

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    More I want to get rid of the time gates that started in legion with artifact power and simply got worse.
    2 months is an unacceptable time frame to get a fresh 120 to clear mythic raids in your mind. What is an acceptable time frame to you?

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    2 months is an unacceptable time frame to get a fresh 120 to clear mythic raids in your mind. What is an acceptable time frame to you?
    Clear? No. Reasonably do well? First half in two to three weeks give or take seems about right assuming the skill level is there.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    Clear? No. Reasonably do well? First half in two to three weeks give or take seems about right assuming the skill level is there.
    So a casual should be able to clear the first half of mythic 2-3 weeks after hitting 120? What is a casual to you? How much time do they put in per week? It would seem to me that just learning the fights might take 2-3 weeks. Are you saying they should just be given full 470 gear so they can learn the fights?

  5. #45
    No. Progression is the hallmark of RPGs, if anything, WoW needs MORE progression. Otherwise you could just play CoD.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Lei View Post
    I kinda remember your daily FIRST completed heroic dungeon giving Emblem of Frost (ICC times). So it wasn't really grindable. Unless logging in for a daily roflstomp heroic is considered grinding just like corruptionsessencesnecklaceazeritemythicpluses.
    I mean this guy's theoretical character is being invited to ICC10 groups in blues so I suppose being able to grind the heroics for purples would be infinite upgrades for him.
    You are right though, the first random gave the relevant tier badge reward, subsequent randoms gave a lesser reward but you could sidestep the lockout.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by XDurionX View Post
    No. Progression is the hallmark of RPGs, if anything, WoW needs MORE progression. Otherwise you could just play CoD.
    spoken like someone who neither does play this game seriously nor CoD

  8. #48
    Pandaren Monk Tuor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lei View Post
    I kinda remember your daily FIRST completed heroic dungeon giving Emblem of Frost (ICC times). So it wasn't really grindable. Unless logging in for a daily roflstomp heroic is considered grinding just like corruptionsessencesnecklaceazeritemythicpluses.
    - daily HC (any)
    - weekly Voa (both 10 and 25)
    - Weekly raid quest

    And most people should be able to farm icc10 in 232 gear (from triumph badges + ICC 5 mans), most people could do it in 5-6 days.
    The point here is that everyone remembers ICC, but very few remembers ToC or Ulduar, getting pre-raid gear was a lot more grindy.

    On-Topic:
    I think there should be mandatory catch up mechanics, like reputations, but they shouldn't take more then 2 weeks, anything longer then that is normally a wish i want that mind blow.

  9. #49
    Legendary! Nnyco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jetzu View Post
    Youre deluded, ICC was the peak of GEARSCORE ---- If you were in blues you would never be invited, what planet are you living on.

    WOWs Gear Path has been a thing since classic, you had to grind fire gear for MC frost gear for Naxx...
    TBC epics meant something, and you needed those epics to even have a chance of completing BT
    Wotlk was probably a tad easier, epics were more freely available but the normal (WotLK LFR) still required you to have at least the 10 man mode gear from the prev raid.
    id go on but the point is clear if you think what we have now is hardcore you need to have a real hard look around.
    Literally welfare Epics EVERYWHERE.

    If you want to Do Endgame with the big boys -- git gud
    "TBC epics meant something" hahaha, did you even play back then. You literally had arena and badges gear thrown at ya.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Crabs have been removed from the game... because if I see another one I’m just going to totally lose it. *sobbing* I’m sorry, I just can’t right now... I just... OK just give me a minute, I’ll be OK..

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaito92 View Post
    spoken like someone who neither does play this game seriously nor CoD
    Oh please enlighten me how someone plays this game "seriously".

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Kendros View Post
    Grinding stuff was added because of massive outcry of casuals that dont have the skill set to set fooot on mythic or even heroic raiding demanding that they too should get gear.
    It have nothing to do with skill. Its just back in Vannila, TBC upto Cata game wasnt so acessible to the point where casuals could finished entire game in couple of days as it is now days. New difficulty is not new content and casual playerbase is not interested in some aritificial difficutly slider and go harder content they alredy did just for sake of doing bigger numbers when those numbers have literaly no meaining to do in first place.

    Getting to see Illidan. Stand in front of Lich King or clearing Kara was goal what most casuals had and it took them monhs to reach it thats why game didnt need any sort of stupid grinds and gating. But with garbage like LFR and other covinience nonsense in the game content barely last couple of days than you can quit or redo all that on higher difficuty which isnt exactly anything what casuals care about.

  12. #52
    The grind is there to condition us to accept it, so that when they game becomes F2P they can make it even worse and charge to skip it.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    WoW is like 99% bear ass collection simulator -- D-Rock

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    It's, let me get a few extra echoes for another expedient rank 3 so i'm going to run lfr on my 475 character.
    or you could run +15-20 m+ and get the echoes you need and possibly some gear... alternate progres is just that, ALTERRNATIVE to do when you dont want to do the content that is "best" at your level...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    There wasn't these weird systems we have now where your waiting upwards of a month to get essences.
    you can literaly farm m+ whole week to get all the gear and echoes for essences and corruptions and catch up with your main no problem, HOW THE HELL is it different from farming hc dungeons in wrath to get badges for gear?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lei View Post
    I kinda remember your daily FIRST completed heroic dungeon giving Emblem of Frost (ICC times). So it wasn't really grindable. Unless logging in for a daily roflstomp heroic is considered grinding just like corruptionsessencesnecklaceazeritemythicpluses.
    first HC a day gave you badges for ICC gear, other gave you badges for TOC gear, so just a tier lower, so yes, you could grind it

  14. #54
    Herald of the Titans Baine's Avatar
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    I am one of those who only do world content. I complete emissaries on 4 characters. I just genuinely enjoy to play my characters even if progression is slim these days (gold). I just like to roam freely and kill stuff in the world. So I am fine with long grinds.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Tuor View Post
    - daily HC (any)
    - weekly Voa (both 10 and 25)
    - Weekly raid quest

    And most people should be able to farm icc10 in 232 gear (from triumph badges + ICC 5 mans), most people could do it in 5-6 days.
    The point here is that everyone remembers ICC, but very few remembers ToC or Ulduar, getting pre-raid gear was a lot more grindy.

    On-Topic:
    I think there should be mandatory catch up mechanics, like reputations, but they shouldn't take more then 2 weeks, anything longer then that is normally a wish i want that mind blow.
    I mean.
    Ulduar "required" naxx gear but
    1) naxx was easy to even pug
    2) VoA lootfest
    3) badge gear was plenty, also gave 2 piece of tier, with 2 tiered badge it means 2x2 tier pieces.
    4) easy pvp gear
    5) crafting was easy and simple, didn't require crafters to do shitty questlines and dungeons, also was easier to level up, getting recipes (no idiotic ranks, no rep recipes for rank 2/3 gates etc).
    6) small ilevel jumps between naxx and ulduar
    7) Toc times trial of champion
    8) easy weekly raid quests (such as kill flame leviathan) was a good chance to get some ulduar gear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    or you could run +15-20 m+ and get the echoes you need and possibly some gear... alternate progres is just that, ALTERRNATIVE to do when you dont want to do the content that is "best" at your level...

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    you can literaly farm m+ whole week to get all the gear and echoes for essences and corruptions and catch up with your main no problem, HOW THE HELL is it different from farming hc dungeons in wrath to get badges for gear?

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    first HC a day gave you badges for ICC gear, other gave you badges for TOC gear, so just a tier lower, so yes, you could grind it
    Grinding specifically for 232 badge gear in ICC times was a massive waste of time tho. You were better off to just do the 3 ICC dungeons on heroic (normal first for ilevel 219 I suppose), run VoA, and pug ToC itself. Especially in times when raid quests were a thing. 232 badge gear in ICC times were a nice passive filler for unlucky slots but nothing more.

  16. #56
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    I don't really get why people jump to the current tier or bring up expansions that clearly didn't allow that... is it a effort to distract from how weak their points are or just the usual internet nitpicking rather then being productive?
    Right back to you - since you still do not tell us what this "lionshare of expansion" encompasses where you could just jump into the highets difficulty of raiding withing a week of being max level. So basically when you set up your point you were talking about the past..yet I may not?

    Yeah..maybe you could "could hit icc within a week" - but for 25 HM? No bloody way if you wanted to pull your weight. And that is attacking your OP where you claim you could immediately hit the highest difficulty. You could not

    Definitely not nitpicking when I need to remind you of the TBC attunements https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20070207064601. You needed heroic 5 mans..gl grinding the rep to even enter them fast. Then you needed to raid to get raid quests to do further raids. Not to forget items from old raids to attune to the next raid.

    So it is indeed only fair to point out x-pac after x-pac where your claim in OP was just wrong or exaggerated. You hitting lv 85 and your guild taking you to HM Firelands within a week? Yeah..I think not...maybe they needed especially YOUR alt and really, really helped you.

    Then it is still only anecdotal evidence and nothing else.

    If your point however is that AP and Essence hold your alts back longer now to really pull their weight...fair enough..we had that topic to death. Maybe Blizzard changes that after all the complaints. Maybe not. People are complaining already about anything that is in SL alpha. As they will complain if they see anyone get to their gear level within a week who just quit and came back while they worked for their gear in the hardest current content.

  17. #57
    I played wrath and it was SUPER alt friendly the friendliest alt friendly expac wow has ever had. The badges you got were always for current teir and enabled you to jump right into the current raid at the min requirement. And the grind wasnt that bad because it wasnt time gated. I could get a brand new 80 and get him ready for ICC in weekend not to mention have a 2set for that current raid or a 4set from the previous. It was very very easy to do. Now you have to grind ALOT. If i was a new player and had gotten a brand new 120 inorder for me to even compete i need rank 3 essence which can take a month depending on which one you need. God help you if Life force is your BiS which means you HAVE to grind Azsharas palace for a month. Good luck! If i level a new character which i just did I have to wait 4 weeks or more to get him to up to current I have 1 purple trait and only pull 20-25kdps. 3 more weeks for all purples and even longer for a max cloak probably 4-6 weeks if i do EVERY daily. Its pretty shit in comparison to previous expacs to much grind not enough catch up.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    So a casual should be able to clear the first half of mythic 2-3 weeks after hitting 120? What is a casual to you? How much time do they put in per week? It would seem to me that just learning the fights might take 2-3 weeks. Are you saying they should just be given full 470 gear so they can learn the fights?
    A casual is how often you play. Not the level of difficulty. Now in that example I do add extra play time to gear up... I would say if you put in 12-20 hours in those two weeks it would be doable with under 10 the following weeks.

    You don't really learn the first 3-4 bosses of a tier they are almost always freebies that die in 10 pulls or less.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    or you could run +15-20 m+ and get the echoes you need and possibly some gear... alternate progres is just that, ALTERRNATIVE to do when you dont want to do the content that is "best" at your level...

    - - - Updated - - -



    you can literaly farm m+ whole week to get all the gear and echoes for essences and corruptions and catch up with your main no problem, HOW THE HELL is it different from farming hc dungeons in wrath to get badges for gear?

    - - - Updated - - -



    first HC a day gave you badges for ICC gear, other gave you badges for TOC gear, so just a tier lower, so yes, you could grind it
    It takes a LOT longer and is only a option if you already unlocked the essence on another character. Considering I doubt you can do 15s without at least a rank 3 major essences you are talking about close to 50 dungeon runs if not more...

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    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Right back to you - since you still do not tell us what this "lionshare of expansion" encompasses where you could just jump into the highets difficulty of raiding withing a week of being max level. So basically when you set up your point you were talking about the past..yet I may not?

    Yeah..maybe you could "could hit icc within a week" - but for 25 HM? No bloody way if you wanted to pull your weight. And that is attacking your OP where you claim you could immediately hit the highest difficulty. You could not

    Definitely not nitpicking when I need to remind you of the TBC attunements https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20070207064601. You needed heroic 5 mans..gl grinding the rep to even enter them fast. Then you needed to raid to get raid quests to do further raids. Not to forget items from old raids to attune to the next raid.

    So it is indeed only fair to point out x-pac after x-pac where your claim in OP was just wrong or exaggerated. You hitting lv 85 and your guild taking you to HM Firelands within a week? Yeah..I think not...maybe they needed especially YOUR alt and really, really helped you.

    Then it is still only anecdotal evidence and nothing else.

    If your point however is that AP and Essence hold your alts back longer now to really pull their weight...fair enough..we had that topic to death. Maybe Blizzard changes that after all the complaints. Maybe not. People are complaining already about anything that is in SL alpha. As they will complain if they see anyone get to their gear level within a week who just quit and came back while they worked for their gear in the hardest current content.
    The highest levels to me means mythic/ heroic in expansions with those options.

    Here is where is suspect we won't agree. For the majority of the expansions you absolutely could get geared to catch up to the hardest difficulty in a couple of weeks.

    For vanilla you would focus the last 5 levels before cap to working on your starting raid gear and attunements. If you hit ZG asap followed by bwl you could easily be ready for aq. The only real stumbling block was the atunement for naxx.

    For tbc if you focused on crafted items, heroics, za and kara it wasn't hard to get ssc/ tk ready though tbc was the hardest expansion for skipping.

    Wrath was super duper easy mode 360 no scope to catch up. The first tier was such a joke pugging it when it was new took a week to clear on average. Get to cap smash Naxx hit heroics especially the catch up ones like toc or the icc 5 man dungeons and you could easily with very little effort be ready to enter 25man heroic. Now you wouldn't be geared to full clear it but you could easily kill the first few bosses.

    Cata... cata is a really,really mixed bag... this is an expansion where I didn't actually level an alt myself. I know zg/za got you geared super quickly and was actually spamable with how often pugs would leave open instances of it in lfd but I really cant comment on this expansion pre catch up dungeons.

    MoP if I recall right had overly powerful and extremely accessible pvp gear that was good enough for heroic.

    WoD had mythic dungeons that worked super well for catch up.

    From legion onward is when the long grinds started to appear to get your character to base line... before that it wasn't hard to get caught up...

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    In the past to get into raiding (outside the first tier) you either had to get carried and/or (later) farm badge gear/reps. At least now with M+ you could theoretically grind out some raid ready gear.
    lmao gear is your last worrie if you want to get near 95%+ parses in a mythic raid nowdays you have to grind 2+ months woth of echos/essences if you dont have them unlocked on a main and you have to hardgrind ap still, 1 neck lvl = 600-800 dps depending on class

    luckly blizz removed all of this dogshit in SL i cant wait to test it my self in the next 2 weeks after beta is up and we top raider geting our invs
    Last edited by Feral Druid ist Op; 2020-06-28 at 06:22 PM.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    A casual is how often you play. Not the level of difficulty. Now in that example I do add extra play time to gear up... I would say if you put in 12-20 hours in those two weeks it would be doable with under 10 the following weeks.

    You don't really learn the first 3-4 bosses of a tier they are almost always freebies that die in 10 pulls or less.
    Lets say 12 hours per week is casual.

    10 pulls or less to clear each of the first 4 bosses. That's gonna require multiple raid nights per week. Let's say 6 hours of mythic raiding just to kill the bosses. So that leaves 6 hours to gear up a fresh 120 with 470 gear to run mythic. Is that correct? It seems to me the only way this works is if you hand out free 470 loot to a fresh 120.

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