I think wow needs to remove alternative progression or fundamentally change it.

[rhorle]

But...why? There isn't a need for two gear sets or two rotations from the idea of keeping grind systems regulated to the open world. My suggestion has it so no one loses anything and balance can be tightened in instanced content. It's a win-win. You stay in your lane and I stay in mine.

Again. If you disable effects on gear the priorities change. You might focus on different stats because you no longer have X tied to that gear. Or X ability no longer boosts Y spell causing Z stat to be less important. Having to change balance between the two means you will have different gear, rotation, and ability priorities between the two. It isn't a win-win to cause every one to learn double the stuff just because you can't be bothered to do a little bit of open world PvE.

[Krakan]

Again. If you disable effects on gear the priorities change. You might focus on different stats because you no longer have X tied to that gear. Or X ability no longer boosts Y spell causing Z stat to be less important. Having to change balance between the two means you will have different gear, rotation, and ability priorities between the two. It isn't a win-win to cause every one to learn double the stuff just because you can't be bothered to do a little bit of open world PvE.

I mean...no no you would not. I can't think of a single edge case of this existing even now with corruption..

You also don't need to change balance as world balance doesn't matter.

[rhorle]

You also don't need to change balance as world balance doesn't matter.

Then why did you say balance can be tightened in instanced content if balance would not be different between the two modes? It doesn't exist now because it functions the same between open world and instanced.

[Otimus]

Grinding stuff was added because of massive outcry of casuals that dont have the skill set to set fooot on mythic or even heroic raiding demanding that they too should get gear.

I mean, if that's even true, they failed, because there really isn't much of a gearing path for casual players. You pretty much can exhaust almost all casual gearing avenues super fast, then you're almost entirely reliant on nothing but luck after week 1. Mythic dungeons are quickly worthless, I'd be very hesitant to call mythic+ anything casual, and you'll pretty much basically outgear LFR before you even finish doing it. Even normal raids are pretty worthless for a casual player. Unless, like.. you literally play one hour a week or something, you're going to be woefully out of things to do unless you "step it up", and I really don't think casual players will or even want to.

This is probably a big reason why the game has retention issues.

Frankly, as a casual game, WoW feels extremely unfun and unrewarding to me, with almost no content neither being rewarding enough to bother with nor fun enough to do for the sake of it.

(This could all be fixed with the return of things like badge gear, and a slow down on how quickly you get gear. Content should not become as worthless as quick as it does.)

[Krakan]

Then why did you say balance can be tightened in instanced content if balance would not be different between the two modes? It doesn't exist now because it functions the same between open world and instanced.

One mode doesn't matter balance wise as there isn't anything remotely challenging enough to need balance. This already exists in warmode.

It's time to let go... let those who enjoy progression free.

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I mean, if that's even true, they failed, because there really isn't much of a gearing path for casual players. You pretty much can exhaust almost all casual gearing avenues super fast, then you're almost entirely reliant on nothing but luck after week 1. Mythic dungeons are quickly worthless, I'd be very hesitant to call mythic+ anything casual, and you'll pretty much basically outgear LFR before you even finish doing it. Even normal raids are pretty worthless for a casual player. Unless, like.. you literally play one hour a week or something, you're going to be woefully out of things to do unless you "step it up", and I really don't think casual players will or even want to.

This is probably a big reason why the game has retention issues.

Frankly, as a casual game, WoW feels extremely unfun and unrewarding to me, with almost no content neither being rewarding enough to bother with nor fun enough to do for the sake of it.

(This could all be fixed with the return of things like badge gear, and a slow down on how quickly you get gear. Content should not become as worthless as quick as it does.)

Mythic + 1,2,3 to 20?

You talk about the tutorial modes like they are meant for you to progress through. You should exhaust those modes almost instantly because they are simply the starting point not the journey.

[razorpax]

Youre deluded, ICC was the peak of GEARSCORE ---- If you were in blues you would never be invited, what planet are you living on.

WOWs Gear Path has been a thing since classic, you had to grind fire gear for MC frost gear for Naxx...
TBC epics meant something, and you needed those epics to even have a chance of completing BT
Wotlk was probably a tad easier, epics were more freely available but the normal (WotLK LFR) still required you to have at least the 10 man mode gear from the prev raid.
id go on but the point is clear if you think what we have now is hardcore you need to have a real hard look around.
Literally welfare Epics EVERYWHERE.

If you want to Do Endgame with the big boys -- git gud

Welfare epics started in tbc

You mentioned needing gear for bt but forgot the sun well patch removed any reason to gear up for it outside of the easy gear

Wrath was so easy pugs cleared it 48 hours after release

Progression has always been difficulty with gear as a buffer and if you disagree where have you been for the last 3 expansions

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I mean, if that's even true, they failed, because there really isn't much of a gearing path for casual players. You pretty much can exhaust almost all casual gearing avenues super fast, then you're almost entirely reliant on nothing but luck after week 1. Mythic dungeons are quickly worthless, I'd be very hesitant to call mythic+ anything casual, and you'll pretty much basically outgear LFR before you even finish doing it. Even normal raids are pretty worthless for a casual player. Unless, like.. you literally play one hour a week or something, you're going to be woefully out of things to do unless you "step it up", and I really don't think casual players will or even want to.

This is probably a big reason why the game has retention issues.

Frankly, as a casual game, WoW feels extremely unfun and unrewarding to me, with almost no content neither being rewarding enough to bother with nor fun enough to do for the sake of it.

(This could all be fixed with the return of things like badge gear, and a slow down on how quickly you get gear. Content should not become as worthless as quick as it does.)

So your complaint is casual content gives appropriate gear??

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I mean...no no you would not. I can't think of a single edge case of this existing even now with corruption..

You also don't need to change balance as world balance doesn't matter.

Multiple sets exist even now but just in instances

Nazjatar kinda had a change because benthic gear but otherwise it’s a nothing burger

Ppl using multiple sets for world content doesn’t exist and anyone saying so is extremely disingenuous

[rhorle]

Ppl using multiple sets for world content doesn’t exist and anyone saying so is extremely disingenuous

Nobody is saying they are used now. I am saying that in the system the OP is proposing it would require multiple sets. Because you would have your "non-instanced" set that takes into account any abilities gained from alternate advancement systems. And you would have your instanced set that is based on stat weights and non-modified abilities that are not. Both artifacts and azerite had impacts on abilities and stats. Those impacts can change the importance of stats.

Would most people use two sets? Likely not but we are not really discussing casuals here. Rather people that want to be hardcore with out putting any time into anything else but instances. Which is why they want to have to do nothing but instances to accrue power for instances. And don't care about balance or super crazy powers in all non-instanced content.

[Otimus]

One mode doesn't matter balance wise as there isn't anything remotely challenging enough to need balance. This already exists in warmode.

It's time to let go... let those who enjoy progression free.

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Mythic + 1,2,3 to 20?

You talk about the tutorial modes like they are meant for you to progress through. You should exhaust those modes almost instantly because they are simply the starting point not the journey.

I think you're grossly out of touch with what the casual player plays. I mean.. you seem to be against it, but that's the way it was WOTLK through to the last tier (but not including it) of MoP.

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Welfare epics started in tbc

You mentioned needing gear for bt but forgot the sun well patch removed any reason to gear up for it outside of the easy gear

Wrath was so easy pugs cleared it 48 hours after release

Progression has always been difficulty with gear as a buffer and if you disagree where have you been for the last 3 expansions

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So your complaint is casual content gives appropriate gear??

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Multiple sets exist even now but just in instances

Nazjatar kinda had a change because benthic gear but otherwise it’s a nothing burger

Ppl using multiple sets for world content doesn’t exist and anyone saying so is extremely disingenuous

My complaint is that casual play has no progression path. Like... you can't even progress your character through LFR, not really, because you're going to have gear better than what drops there before you even get to it, usually, unless, like... you literally never play the game and the only thing you even do is that. Sort of applies for normal raids, too. Least it did when I was last active.

[Feral Moose]

Yeah the amount of time it takes grinding the cloak, necklace and visions and all that stuff is pretty off-putting for new or returning players. It feels like a huge up-front time sink of filler content, in order to "get to the fun part later".

A far cry from when WoW was praised for being an MMO where you could log in, party up for a few group quests or a battleground for a bit and have a meaningful experience progressing your character in a social way online, even if you had limited time to spend. Sure, MMOs always had grinding aspects, but at least they were in the open world with other players from your server, not just 200 solo full clears of stormwind vision on repeat.

Sadly I think Torghast is going to be visions 2.0.

[Krakan]

I think you're grossly out of touch with what the casual player plays. I mean.. you seem to be against it, but that's the way it was WOTLK through to the last tier (but not including it) of MoP.

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My complaint is that casual play has no progression path. Like... you can't even progress your character through LFR, not really, because you're going to have gear better than what drops there before you even get to it, usually, unless, like... you literally never play the game and the only thing you even do is that. Sort of applies for normal raids, too. Least it did when I was last active.

I agree that the barrage of event gear is to powerful but when did casual start to mean only doing dailies and lfr rather then limited play time?

[razorpax]

I think you're grossly out of touch with what the casual player plays. I mean.. you seem to be against it, but that's the way it was WOTLK through to the last tier (but not including it) of MoP.

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My complaint is that casual play has no progression path. Like... you can't even progress your character through LFR, not really, because you're going to have gear better than what drops there before you even get to it, usually, unless, like... you literally never play the game and the only thing you even do is that. Sort of applies for normal raids, too. Least it did when I was last active.

Different play styles have different reward structures

As a casual your gearing consists at most of

A weekly 450 from a world boss
A reward from your assaults
Gear from emissaries
Crafted gear that’s pretty much base normal level
Lfr gear where the traits matter more than ilvl and also trinkets
Weekly time walking

Much like raiders have more than just raids as a source casuals have more than lfr

[Twdft]

I agree that the barrage of event gear is to powerful but when did casual start to mean only doing dailies and lfr rather then limited play time?

I think this loot showering is actually necessary for casual players. If you define casual as limited hours of play time. Sure the stuff you get from world quests are mainly useless and those of us who play 20 a week rather have less but more useful items. But imagine logging in for an hour every two days and due to bad luck and decreased overall loot availability you don't get anything in 4 play sessions in a row... then you haven't gotten anything for more than a week.

[Otimus]

Different play styles have different reward structures

As a casual your gearing consists at most of

A weekly 450 from a world boss
A reward from your assaults
Gear from emissaries
Crafted gear that’s pretty much base normal level
Lfr gear where the traits matter more than ilvl and also trinkets
Weekly time walking

Much like raiders have more than just raids as a source casuals have more than lfr

My point was that almost none of that is neither rewarding enough to do nor fun enough to do just for the sake of doing it, IMO anyways. (and some of it is just flat out buying gear for gold, which... like.. is the opposite of a progression path) Like, almost all of that content's usefulness is ran out in maybe a week. The rest is a massive trickle almost entirely based on luck past that week. Less than a week, really.

Dungeons that aren't Mythic+ should not be as absolutely worthless as they are. LFR shouldn't be as worthless as it is. Fucking Normal raids shouldn't be near as worthless as they are. Assaults are basically worthless too. Basically everything is useless unless you, like.. play an hour a week or something.

[Krakan]

I think this loot showering is actually necessary for casual players. If you define casual as limited hours of play time. Sure the stuff you get from world quests are mainly useless and those of us who play 20 a week rather have less but more useful items. But imagine logging in for an hour every two days and due to bad luck and decreased overall loot availability you don't get anything in 4 play sessions in a row... then you haven't gotten anything for more than a week.

I guess in that extreme example it makes sense but wow is a weird game to play with THAT limited downtime.