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  1. #321
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I think the corruption is responsible because even as Horde you actually free those NPC's gang-pressed into service. Those are not vendor NPC's "defending their home," they're very obviously being pressed into a combat role, and when you kill their Kor'kron overseers they run off, they're not there to fight on their own recognizance. The rest of the vendors have their abodes boarded up or blocked off, protecting themselves from the Kor'kron and not from the PC raid bursting into the city. Y'Shaarj's influence probably amped up whatever feelings these NPC's were having that led them to join Garrosh to begin with - sentiments of Orcish superiority, hatred of the Alliance, etc. etc.

    I mean in the very midst of being invaded the Kor'kron are conducting purges on their own down in the Cleft of Shadow, which makes zero sense when you're already under siege. But if you're talking about people who are being driven by external corruption it does make a degree of sense - they're not thinking properly, their passions being stoked to insane heights by the influence of Y'Shaarj.
    The press ganged part I'll give you, since some (though not all), do give up when you off the nearby Kor'kron, but the boarded up parts and defending themselves from the Kor'kron thing I think is a more general bit about securing themselves before an invasion and to avoid being thrown into the fighting rather than some specific allegiance.

    As for the latter part, I wouldn't say it's irrational. The warlocks know Garrosh has them in their sights, killing them as theatrically as he did might be down to passions running high, but killing them in general was both something he'd obviously wanted to do for a fair while and reasonable in the sense of them being the likeliest to join the rebels and also being massively dangerous. See also the Doomguard that one of the NPCs sends after the Kor'kron.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  2. #322
    Quote Originally Posted by Katsutomai View Post
    Versus what could be 20,000+ years of experience
    Night elves have not even existed for 20k years lol

    and an Old God bolstering her strength.. Hm. You tell me.
    Having the fraction of a being that could crush the most powerful old god itself with his bare hands, you tell me ;P

  3. #323
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The guy Soon-TM was quoting here: "Someone in these boards said that the ultimate difference between Horde and the Alliance is that, while both do resort to some pretty !@#$ed up stuff from time to time, only the former has to answer for it."
    Keep ignoring scope. Keep ignoring the Alliance perpetually stuck in the reacting role. Keep ignoring that the Alliance "answers" to the Horde for their acts in the form of being murdered in the massacre du jour.

    You disappoint me.
    Last edited by Feanoro; 2020-06-29 at 01:53 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I'll buy an Anduin shirt if Delaryn doesn't end up betraying Sylvanas by the end of the expansion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  4. #324
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Jaina trying to drown Orgrimmar was at the very beginning of MoP, before anyone, even Vol'jin had rebelled. It was completely a Horde territory.
    I'm on about SoO when I say that, not Jaina trying to drown it

  5. #325
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Night elves have not even existed for 20k years lol



    Having the fraction of a being that could crush the most powerful old god itself with his bare hands, you tell me ;P
    From what I've read Tyrande was nearly 14,000 years old during the 3rd War. We have no clue exactly how old Azshara is. I don't believe we've ever been told exactly what Jaina got from her staff, have we?

  6. #326
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Twice? One is the Alliance scoring a victory against like a sixth of the Old Horde (and they still failed to capture all the present Orc clans), but what is supposed to be the second one? Is it MoP where Alliance ceded land to the Horde like a "true victor" or BfA, which I already described?
    The second war ended in total military defeat for the horde and the capture of their de jure absolute dictator. The 'Garrosh affair' (the 3.5 war?) similarly ended in the capture of the de jure absolute dictator of the horde and the surrender of it's standing forces (based off your comments about BFA 'traitors' I doubt you're willing to argue Vol'jin's rebels were representing the horde). I don't think there's any real way to describe how bfa ended, with a peace treaty won through slyvanas spilling her spaghetti?
    If the horde wants to win a war maybe they should try not collapsing into a civil war occasionally.

    The fact that the alliance is apparently legendarily bad at setting peace terms cannot invalidate the above.

  7. #327
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Keep ignoring scope. Keep ignoring the Alliance perpetually stuck in the reacting role. Keep ignoring that the Alliance "answers" to the Horde for their acts in the form of being murdered in the massacre du jour.

    You disappoint me.
    Why would @Super Dickmann ignoring the lie of Alliance being perpetually stuck in the reacting role be disappointing? And last time I checked, when Alliance does bad shit (that is then completely brushed under the carpet by valiant Alliance posters), the Horde suffers that "answer" too, so the difference you thought you had in you gotcha isn't actually a difference. Likewise, difference in scope (and it's not like the Horde is blowing up cities left and right, aside from those two instances - and Theramore was the most valid target on Azeroth - the scope of other Horde actions is the same as the scope of Alliance actions) isn't a justification for Alliance's wrongdoings to be completely ignored all the time by the narrative of the game itself.
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  8. #328
    The Insane Daemos daemonium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EntertainmentNihilist View Post
    Pretty sure the alliance actions in the southern barrens were in response to horde aggression in Ashenvale. You know...the reason Cairne stood up to Garrosh and died.

    Garrosh wanted to conquer Kalimdor for "The Horde", at the expense of nature and all the other peoples. All the War in Cata and MoP was a result of his warmongering BS. Theramore was unjustified because of his intent.

    Honestly, I feel Jaina would have been justified in destroying Orgimmar. That would have ended the threat once and for all and prevented more bloodshed in the long run.
    Garrosh didn’t want to just conquer all of kalimdor in cata that didn’t come till after. He was trying to get resources for his people so they wouldn’t starve. the horde tried to trade peacefully with the night elfs before the twilight hammer screwed it up and over aggressive carine challenged him for no reason because of it.

    With peaceful options fallen away garrosh went to take the resources by force which is hard to blame him for when the hippie elf’s are hoarding multiple massive forest while you live in a crappy desert starving to death.

  9. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by Katsutomai View Post
    From what I've read Tyrande was nearly 14,000 years old during the 3rd War. We have no clue exactly how old Azshara is.
    The dark trolls settled around the well of eternity 15k years ago and then it took some time for them to transform, Tyrande was much older before that got retconned.

    I don't believe we've ever been told exactly what Jaina got from her staff, have we?
    That was the point it was power from the Thunderking, but not his powersource. Which was a titan fragment. If jaina had a piece of a Titan at her disposal, as has been argued, she should have been able to d so much more.
    Last edited by Combatbulter; 2020-06-29 at 02:03 PM.

  10. #330
    Over 9000! HighlordJohnstone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    The attack was justified, but not the methods, especially since the mana-bomb is not only the WoW equivalent of a nuclear bomb (leaving the place basically inhabitable) but because using it goes against this "ERMAHGERD HONOR LOK'TAR OGAR HONORABLE DEATH" that the orcs (and Garrosh) are supposed to have.
    - - - Updated - - -

    I already talked about this tho. lmao

  11. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eto Demerzel View Post
    I mean, technically speaking, a part of Aman'Thul soul which was used by Lei Shen "to be stronger than the Lich King in 1v1" is inside Antonidas Staff (which is in Jaina's bank getting dust)... it was stated she could decimate the whole Orgrimmar alone...
    This isn’t the case. Jaina has any left over power that was in the throne of thunder after lei Shen was defeated but not any part of ama’thuls soul. Warion took lei shen‘s actual power by eating his heart and Jiana could only take on org with the focusing iris not without it.

  12. #332
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    The second war ended in total military defeat for the horde and the capture of their de jure absolute dictator. The 'Garrosh affair' (the 3.5 war?) similarly ended in the capture of the de jure absolute dictator of the horde and the surrender of it's standing forces (based off your comments about BFA 'traitors' I doubt you're willing to argue Vol'jin's rebels were representing the horde). I don't think there's any real way to describe how bfa ended, with a peace treaty won through slyvanas spilling her spaghetti?
    If the horde wants to win a war maybe they should try not collapsing into a civil war occasionally.

    The fact that the alliance is apparently legendarily bad at setting peace terms cannot invalidate the above.
    Vol'jin was most certainly a traitor when he was acting against Garrosh (even Baine argued he was not only a traitor, but a traitor so traitorous Garrosh was in the right to have him killed in a damp cave and he made Vol'jin admit that in front of the entire world). Up to a point. At the start of 5.4 Garrosh kicked out all non-believers out of the Horde.

    Anyway, by the time Varian got to making his laughable threats Vol'jin already ascended to Warchief, so Varian was faced with the stark majority of the Horde members that opposed Garrosh (even most Orcs went against him) that filled Garrosh's place. And it's with that part of the Horde, not Garrosh, that Varian parlayed (another reason why referring to Garrosh's True Horde tree house as the Horde that the Alliance graciously let live is inaccurate is because that wasn't exactly the treatment True Horde got). And that parlaying included the Alliance ceding Azshara to the Horde (and completely ignoring all the land they lost to Sylvanas), because for all of Varian's bluster, the Alliance was in no position to fight anymore.

    Because if it was not for Horde's internal strife, the Alliance would have continued the track record of getting their teeth kicked in by the Horde straight into the grave. There's a reason why the Alliance managed to lose that war even in the timeline where Jaina did destroy Orgrimmar and that's because the Alliance was weaker. Well, that and because the Alliance saw fit to choose a moron that didn't know the concept of overextension and who was fighting the first war of his life as their supreme commander.
    Last edited by Mehrunes; 2020-06-29 at 02:18 PM.
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  13. #333
    The Insane Daemos daemonium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    That doesn't however cover the Sunreaver guards she killed before she even charged the Sunreavers with anything. I.e. before the Sunreavers denied her ultimatum that would give her any grounds for her to kill her (I mean, obviously putting aside how the entire Purge was one giant power abuse as the leader of the Council of Six doesn't have this sort of individual power). Even with Jaina's murder spree while she walks around the square just being buggy behavior, Sunreaver blood is still directly on her hands (and plenty more is on them indirectly due to her letting Silver Covenant lunatics loose on the city).
    Assuming there standing around and waving there sticks isn’t just a game thing then ya she still blows a couple away even if it’s not the feeling civ’s in question.

  14. #334
    I don't know how to explain it, but every single time the horde commit a genocide, there are always pro horde who say " it's justified, X killed a few random NPC there ! "
    ( most recent example, the Goblins killed in Silithus supposedly started the fourth war. While we now know that Sylvanas planned this war regardless of anything, and that still didn't justify the burning of Teldrassil )

    You don't have to search for the cause, the horde always react way of the chart anyway.

    But in the end, the responsible are neither the horde nor the alliance, its the Void.


    Without the Void there would be no burning Legion

    Without the burning Legion there would be no Horde,

    Without the Horde there would be no faction war.

    Period.
    Last edited by Engal; 2020-06-29 at 02:28 PM.

  15. #335
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinrael View Post
    I am very interested to know first - where did you get the information that Theramore was sending troops to Northwatch, if the book is our only source on those events?
    ... The Game? The game where we had a line of tanks and soldiers leaving Theramoore? The game where Theramoore set up bases in Southern Barrens and had troops in Durotar?

    The game which addressed that orcs felt this was a violation of their treaty with the humans and was to the best of my knowledge, NEVER brought up in the book?


    So again... where's your citation that it was?
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  16. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Executing captured combatants involved in a violent attempt to overthrow you is a fair deal different from shooting civilians you've kept in a basement for no real reason for ages.
    well yeah, of course; Garrosh was already just fukked up by the time he got the heart
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  17. #337
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Technically evacuated.

    As in, evacuated so that the civilians could be captured on the water and brought to Orgrimmar.

    In other words, not actually evacuated, but led into a trap for later torture.

    (Source: Theramore Prisoners in Siege of Orgrimmar)
    aah oke, now i get it.

  18. #338
    Quote Originally Posted by Engal View Post
    I don't know how to explain it, but every single time the horde commit a genocide, there are always pro horde who say " it's justified, X killed a few random NPC there ! "
    Don't forget the part where when you point out the difference in scope, it's handwaved and you're called a liar, which is apparently somehow ok when Horde posters do it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I'll buy an Anduin shirt if Delaryn doesn't end up betraying Sylvanas by the end of the expansion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  19. #339
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Except the staff performs a spell effect when put in the quest location and all the magical tendrils or whatever you want to call them go to the ceiling in a small radius and do fuck all about Lei Shen. If you kill Lei Shen in the corner he's not even remotely touched by them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    You missed a step, the staff floats into the direction of the ceiling and power from it channels into the staff, Jaina then feels that power
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    And the draining effect that activates when you put the staff in position doesn't even look in Lei Shen's corpse general direction. The staff drains just the vicinity of the dais that Lei-Shen was using throughout the fight that was supposedly his "source of power".
    Since you both keep the same i prefer replying both at same time. The depiction in game from an act does not mean that is how it happened, think for example about how small the Well of Eternity is compared to the original one.
    But okay, lets just concede this one, if you can simply explain to me how Jaina literally got several times stronger without doing anything at all. There is no other explanation, no other situation, no other training, nothing at all that affects her power aside from THAT quest, where she specifically asks you to bring the power of Lei Shen back and when you bring it, she says she can feel it.

    She might be wrong and might be just a part? Who knows, but literally that moment, that single moment is the only moment in the whole recent wow where she has shown any attempt to improve her strength and she CONFIRMS it.



    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Yes, potential for power is not the same as current power. That's... kinda what the word "potential" indicates. Again, in the very same book as the one in which she became the leader of the Council of Six because of that prophecy she failed to do literally anything to someone she wanted to kill while attacking that person with all of her might.
    Well, Antonidas died in WC3 which happens like 10 or 15 years before? So probably he indicated that she has potential to become the strongest mage like 20 years ago... 20 years is more than enough to improve quite a lot. Also, i was just re-reading and she did not become leader of the Kirin Tor due to a profecy, she seems to have offered rejoining as a novice and the council were the ones who decided to ask her become their leader which, profecy aside, makes sense since she is way stronger than Modera, Ansirem, Karlain and Aethas, who else would have been able to take the rulership of a magical kingdom if not the most proficient mage active?


    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Right now. That says nothing about Jaina ~4 years ago. And my fragment from Tides of War does no such thing because Jaina was utterly failing in combat even in War Cimes (to the point she got nearly killed by a meaningless twerp and had to be saved by a divine intervention from Chi Ji) which happens AFTER Isle of Thunder.
    War Crimes novel is a crime itself and you know it. I havent managed to fully read it, but the fact is that she gets shoot in the back while she is fighting a version of herself from an alternative timeline... so i guess if you had to fight yourself AND people shooting at your back, you'd be dead too, even if you were Sargeras.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Us not knowing where Wrathion was doesn't preclude the Legion from being able to find him. Eonar was hidden in a sanctuary in a dark corner of the cosmos but the Legion still managed to crawl up her ass. Also, we literally saw Wrathion getting the same warning from Aman'thul of the Pantheon's fall that Ra did when he got possessed by Aman'thul's soul, so it's not exactly just a theory that Wrathion got his soul.
    I agree, not knowing were Wrathion is does not make the Legion unable to find him, the fact that he NEVER stated it, he NEVER showed any damage, or that we were able to found him like we found Eonar... it gives vibes that probably Legion never found him, because Legion did not need to find him.

    How did Wrathion survive then if the Legion found him? Why the Legion would leave a Dragon Aspect after draining the soul of Aman'thul from him? It doesnt make sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    The battle at undercity is the outlier, afterwards she does not display such power again and is easily outclassed by Azshara later on.
    Azshara was alredy the mightiest mage 10.000 years ago, and now she is directly empowered by N'Zoth and was one of the main antagonist of the expansion. The fact that she is able to best Jaina is no surprise, it would actually be surprising that she could beat Azshara. But again, no, Jaina showed she still has extremelly strong power in Dazar'Alor, where she literally froze an entire sea for a couple minutes while fighting the Horde Champions. Have you ever seen any other mage display such raw power?
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    How would Jaina not have noticed her staff lost its main power then?
    Its simple, she didnt. The fact that a developer had to answer with a question just gives a hint that Blizzard has not confirmed that fact. I mean, he could have clearly stated "Legion got into Ulduar and stole it", but he said "Didnt you saw Legion invasions?" Which honestly answers nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    And we have an ingame cinematic, with her being steamrolled in Zuldazar intro and then being taken by Sylvanas minions at the beginning of shadowlands, where she is constantly being beaten and stuffed in a cage again, though they might change the later part.
    We know that she has been taken by Sylvannas minions into Shadowlands, but as far as i have read, we dont know how they managed to pull it... also she is not the only one who has been taken.

  20. #340
    Quote Originally Posted by Daronokk View Post
    Bollocks. He specifically waited for the civilians to evacuate.
    Garrosh did not wait "to let the civilians escape." He waited to let as much Alliance military to congregate in Theramore to kill as many as possible in one fell swoop.

    Another evidence that Garrosh didn't care for civilians? In the Siege of Orgrimmar raid, we see Theramore civilians being tortured and hanged on the streets.
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