Why is Theramore seen as unjustified?

[Aucald]

"I want to play the bad guys! I want to grind up puppies and set nurseries on fire FER DA HERD! Don't you dare call my character and faction evil!"

Comes from some hangups about admitting they enjoy playing evil characters, or something.

An attitude I've never really understood, myself. It's fine to enjoy playing evil characters in a fictional context - I enjoyed the Horde campaign in WC1 and WC2 immensely, just enjoying being evil for evil's sake in terms of the game. My main issue with the Horde as presented in WoW is with the narrative surrounding the Horde, not really an issue with the players. The developers and writers seem, as is typical, to want to have their cake and eat their cake simultaneously. They depict the Horde committing unarguably evil acts but still cleave to the reformations in WC3, trying to exist in a state that is mutually exclusive. Thrall's Horde as show in WC3 would've never permitted Teldrassil to occur, in my view. The same is true of Theramore before it.

Basically put, they need to make a final decision and cast the Horde as either good or evil, and stop playing both ends against the middle as it were. It's understandable players are confused about the Horde right now - whereas with the Alliance you more or less know where you stand when it comes to ethical generalities.

[Varodoc]

An attitude I've never really understood, myself. It's fine to enjoy playing evil characters in a fictional context - I enjoyed the Horde campaign in WC1 and WC2 immensely, just enjoying being evil for evil's sake in terms of the game. My main issue with the Horde as presented in WoW is with the narrative surrounding the Horde, not really an issue with the players. The developers and writers seem, as is typical, to want to have their cake and eat their cake simultaneously. They depict the Horde committing unarguably evil acts but still cleave to the reformations in WC3, trying to exist in a state that is mutually exclusive. Thrall's Horde as show in WC3 would've never permitted Teldrassil to occur, in my view. The same is true of Theramore before it.

Basically put, they need to make a final decision and cast the Horde as either good or evil, and stop playing both ends against the middle as it were. It's understandable players are confused about the Horde right now - whereas with the Alliance you more or less know where you stand when it comes to ethical generalities.

Thrall's Horde actually SAVED a World Tree from total destruction, so yeah.

[Mace]

Really puts into perspective how aggressive the Horde became after Thrall left.

Yeh, but too many horde fans ddeny this. Not all off course, but too many for how obvious it is, but then we've seen some weird denials over the years.

[Tanaria]

Hang on a sec, An'owyn, An'daroth (I believe that's the right spelling), and An'telas are not towns, villages or cities, they're camps. The night elves don't kill anyone to set up camp there, they're empty/ruins that have leylines they use to power their scry orbs. They the night elves get attacked in these places. In the last location the night elves attempt to secure their location from the blood elf security force that has tried to remove them, are losing and request the heroe's help.

So I wouldn't add that as alliance - unless you are considering any operation of the alliance in enemy territory even if it isn't occupied or used. [/LIST]

The Blood Elves had every right to defend themselves from the hostile night elf presence.
The Blood Elves were dealing with a rising Amani Threat as well as the Scourge and now a band of hostile night elves, sabotaging the Sanctums in the North and now setting up locations to spy and attack the Night Elves.

The Sin'dorei do have a right to defend themselves in their own lands. Quel'Thalas is their land - all those locations are Blood Elf land and the Night Elves had no right setting up base camps in those locations to spy on the Sin'dorei and attack any Blood Elf who just happened to be near their camp.

This is Blood Elf land and the Night Elves would do well to remember it. They exiled the Blood Elves' ancestors to this part of the world and now they come, when the Blood Elves are at their lowest, to start spying on them.
Shame on them.

It's #TeamBloodElf all the way on this one. The Night Elves are cruel for invading and sabotaging the blood elves' resources, when they are still trying to get over the loss of their Sunwell as well as hostile presences in the South and right through the center of the land.

[Protean]

It's been a while since I've even thought about Theramore but it could be that it's considered unjustified not because it wasn't a legitimate military target (it was), but because of the means by which it was destroyed. A mana bomb is instant, leaves zero survivors (despite what you think, civilians are important, and killing them IS a war crime) and is honestly pretty cowardly for the "muh honor" Horde under Garrosh.

Now if they attacked Theramore with a force of soldiers or by sea, won through skill/numbers/attrition/whatever, and allowed civilians to evacuate (like they pretended happened with Teldrassil) then I don't think it would have been considered unjustified.

Maybe they shouldn't have kept civilians at a military target. I blame the army using human shields, something the horde has never done.

[Feanoro]

The Blood Elves had every right to defend themselves from the hostile night elf presence.
The Blood Elves were dealing with a rising Amani Threat as well as the Scourge and now a band of hostile night elves, sabotaging the Sanctums in the North and now setting up locations to spy and attack the Night Elves.

The Sin'dorei do have a right to defend themselves in their own lands. Quel'Thalas is their land - all those locations are Blood Elf land and the Night Elves had no right setting up base camps in those locations to spy on the Sin'dorei and attack any Blood Elf who just happened to be near their camp.

This is Blood Elf land and the Night Elves would do well to remember it. They exiled the Blood Elves' ancestors to this part of the world and now they come, when the Blood Elves are at their lowest, to start spying on them.

Yeah, the Blood Elves weren't dealing in fel magic, attacking the Draenei, and their prince definitely wasn't making deals with Kil'jaeden. How dare anyone try to find out what they were doing? All I have to say on this, because we beat it to death in another thread.

Maybe they shouldn't have kept civilians at a military target. I blame the army using human shields, something the horde has never done.

Another fine example of twisting things trying desperately to make the Horde look good.

[Tanaria]

Yeah, the Blood Elves weren't dealing in fel magic, attacking the Draenei, and their prince definitely wasn't making deals with Kil'jaeden. How dare anyone try to find out what they were doing?

The Sunfury Blood Elves were doing that.
The Silvermoon Blood Elves had no idea what was going on and what was driving Kael'thas.

And if fel magic is such a concern - why did they not say anything to the Humans and Gnomes then? Do they get a sudden free pass...? Talk about double standards.

They were still trying to recover from the Scourge invasion - they have every right to defend their lands from the cruel and selfish night elves.

[Protean]

I don't think its about it being destroyed, but in how it was destroyed. Its like using gas or biological weapons in war, or in that case a nuke. People are not into that mass destruction, not even in WoW.

And in the story, Theramore was quite a populated place, not just a place with a tower and a few houses, as it is in-game. So when we talk about innocents die, we are talking about A LOT! of innocents dying in a single moment, with no chance of getting them to safety.

So yeah, it was justified to destroy Theramore, but it was done in an unjust way.

There's no difference between a mana bomb and a bomb. The reason there's a distinction between nukes and regular bombs is because one creates a deadzone that lasts a thousand years, and obliterates the genes of survivors for generations to come.

The alliance already uses bombs and cannons. Don't blame the horde for using the same measures, albeit bigger.

[Mace]

The Blood Elves had every right to defend themselves from the hostile night elf presence.
The Blood Elves were dealing with a rising Amani Threat as well as the Scourge and now a band of hostile night elves, sabotaging the Sanctums in the North and now setting up locations to spy and attack the Night Elves.

The Sin'dorei do have a right to defend themselves in their own lands. Quel'Thalas is their land - all those locations are Blood Elf land and the Night Elves had no right setting up base camps in those locations to spy on the Sin'dorei and attack any Blood Elf who just happened to be near their camp.

This is Blood Elf land and the Night Elves would do well to remember it. They exiled the Blood Elves' ancestors to this part of the world and now they come, when the Blood Elves are at their lowest, to start spying on them.
Shame on them.

It's #TeamBloodElf all the way on this one. The Night Elves are cruel for invading and sabotaging the blood elves' resources, when they are still trying to get over the loss of their Sunwell as well as hostile presences in the South and right through the center of the land.

We are aware that you are team blood elf tanaria despite the misleading Night elven capital from my screenshot you used as your avatar picture.

and good for you for pointing out the blood elves had every right to defend themselves, people do if they are being attacked (although in this case I think they took the attack to the spies - so calling it "defending" is rich) but, this is not the point my reply was making. You know right? The main point is that they weren't settlements/bases/villages/towns/cities which is what that list was about.

[Darth-Piekus]

You will have to wonder. Considering Garrosh would have attacked anyway since he wanted Kalimdor for the Horde and pretty much started this war and Theramore had to create a military line to help the Night Elves was it justified? Garrosh already had plans from the moment he was introduced in Wrath of the Lich King interested of hitting the Alliance instead of the Scourge and provoking neutral factions. So was it really justified? Personally I would like to say it wasn't justified. They got dragged in the middle of this war.

[Tanaria]

We are aware that you are team blood elf tanaria despite the misleading Night elven capital from my screenshot you used as your avatar picture.

and good for you for pointing out the blood elves had every right to defend themselves, people do if they are being attacked (although in this case I think they took the attack to the spies - so calling it "defending" is rich) but, this is not the point my reply was making. You know right? The main point is that they weren't settlements/bases/villages/towns/cities which is what that list was about.

The Night Elves were a hostile presence, and as such weren't needed when they had the Amani threat rising to East and the Scourge threat in the South.
If the Night Elves were there, wanting to lend a helping hand then I would support their presence.

They weren't though. They didn't help Silvermoon's problems. They were causing trouble for the Sanctums and they weren't doing anything to tackle the rising threats in Zul'Aman and Deatholme.

The Night Elves did wrong and they should have apologised - only they didn't.

[Flurryfang]

There's no difference between a mana bomb and a bomb. The reason there's a distinction between nukes and regular bombs is because one creates a deadzone that lasts a thousand years, and obliterates the genes of survivors for generations to come.

The alliance already uses bombs and cannons. Don't blame the horde for using the same measures, albeit bigger.

And there is no difference between a bomb and a nuke, its just the size of the explosion.(And now we are not talking fallout, because that matters little in the moment of explosion).

Again, the means in how it was done is not the problem, explosions have happened before. It was the size of it, a huge explosion, that made it an unjustified act. It would be like, you know, burning down a big tree. Burning trees is not new, the size of the fire was.

[Feanoro]

We are aware that you are team blood elf tanaria despite the misleading Night elven capital from my screenshot you used as your avatar picture.

and good for you for pointing out the blood elves had every right to defend themselves, people do if they are being attacked (although in this case I think they took the attack to the spies - so calling it "defending" is rich) but, this is not the point my reply was making. You know right? The main point is that they weren't settlements/bases/villages/towns/cities which is what that list was about.

All of that and more was pointed out in another thread, with proof from quest text that the only activity was spying/observation. The entire thread minus one agreed there was no evidence of sabotage, hostile activity, or any other flights of imagination to that effect. Guess who the minus one was. The whole point of spying on the BElves was because of Kael'thas. Silvermoon didn't know? Great, that's exactly what the Night Elves were trying to find out.

[Tanaria]

All of that and more was pointed out in another thread, with proof from quest text that the only activity was spying/observation. The entire thread minus one agreed there was no evidence of sabotage, hostile activity, or any other flights of imagination to that effect. Guess who the minus one was. The whole point of spying on the BElves was because of Kael'thas. Silvermoon didn't know? Great, that's exactly what the Night Elves were trying to find out.

They were hostile and should have been driven out and they should have apologised to the Blood Elves, for getting their information wrong.


Infracted.

[Accendor]

Except later interview with Danuser resulted in him not acknowledging Afrasiabi's brain fart in his own interview. Yet another cherry to the pile of Alliance's picking.

Could you link that, please?

[mickybrighteyes]

In the early chapters of The Shattering, Cairne mentions both in internal monologue and out loud to Garrosh that after the Lich King's defeat, there was a ceasefire that was in-depth enough that it clearly lined out where Alliance waters ended and Horde waters began, as an Alliance vessel had been blown off-course during a particularly nasty storm and Garrosh, with the support of the ship's crew, attacked them for supplies--abusing the wording of the treaty rather than the spirit of it to avoid ramifications. The novel and Cataclysm quests are purposefully mum on who threw the first punch that reignited the faction war, with most of the cause being pinned on resource shortages and Twilight's Hammer machinations.

yes, but that material linked is covering the material and mentions nothing in the way of a formal end to any conflicts.

It states:

soure
With both factions recovering from war, the Alliance and Horde attempt to resume their tentative peace declared by their respective faction's peace treaty. Yet Garrosh Hellscream's aggression against the Alliance has not abated. While the Horde was recalling its forces back to Orgrimmar, Garrosh's forces waylayed an Alliance carrier wrecked at sea. He disposed of most of its crew, reasoning that it was in Horde waters, though a distressed Cairne Bloodhoof urged him to relent. Garrosh then gave the survivors supplies and rations, informing them that they had witnessed both the Horde's might and the Horde's mercy.

Political tensions continued to rise as the night elves of Darnassus have refused trade with the Horde and barred them from Ashenvale in protest of the Wrathgate. With the Horde's supplies being depleted on account of the war with the Lich King and the unusual droughts affecting Orgrimmar, things were looking bleak for the Horde. Relations worsen as Twilight Hammer orcs under the guise of Horde forces, kill and skin night elf sentinels to frame the Horde. Then Warchief Thrall had refused to publicly condemn the night elf massacres; making it seem as if the Horde tacitly supported them. In an effort to quell the rising tensions, Hamuul Runetotem attempted to pursue diplomatic talks with his fellow night elf druids. Yet the talks became violent when the druid meeting was attacked by Twilight Hammer orcs believed to be sent by Garrosh Hellscream, acting warchief of the Horde.[6]

Three years have passed since the military forces of the Alliance and Horde first set foot on the shores of Northrend, and they now wage war amidst the disasters wrought by Deathwing's return to the world. The catastrophic Second Sundering left the resources in the world diminished, making the factions fight for what has been left. Thrall has left the Horde to lead the Earthen Ring's efforts in preventing the rift beneath the Maelstrom from tearing apart the world, and has appointed the ambitious Garrosh Hellscream as Warchief of the Horde in his absence. King Varian Wrynn, convinced that the Horde has remained unchecked for too long, continues to lead the Alliance.

The day before the Cataclysm, Alliance forces streamed out of Northwatch and marched up the Gold Road, besieging Crossroads as dusk fell. Then, in the heart of the night, they force-marched southward, leaving their campfires burning behind in order to surprise attack Honor's Stand at dawn's first light.[7] They also attacked Durotar, the heart of orcish territory, despite the peace that was previously negotiated between them and Jaina Proudmoore,[8] moving to take the Horde settlements there.[9]'

So it seems as though they just kept the whole mess going anyways.

[Mehrunes]

Indiscriminate mass murder for no reason. Capturing the city could have been accomplished through conventional means and far fewer lives lost and wiping out the people of Theramore doesn't further the Horde's strategic situation. Nuking the soldiers at Theramore only marginally diminishes the Alliance's military strength (hey, the Horde and the Alliance somehow have enough men to cover four continents, launch an expedition to another world, and constantly be engaged in warfare for decades. The soldiers at Theramore were a drop in the bucket). It's indiscriminate mass murder for the sake of doing so. It's literally for the evulz. Don't forget that Garrosh took the handful of survivors back to Orgrimmar and tortured them and used them for target practice.

At the time of Theramore's destruction the Horde navy was capable of blockading the entirety of Kalimdor and the only reason why Alliance was capable of sending in reinforcements was because that's precisely what Garrosh desired and as such allowed. Had there been a conventional fight the city would have been cut off and everyone inside would have been slaughtered anyway. Except this way would have pointlessly cost Horde lives as well. So the idea that the conventional assault would have resulted in fewer lives lost doesn't have much to back it up.

And the book doesn't even remotely treat Theramroe as just a drop in the bucket. Just the opposite, it treats it as a major blow both in terms of quantity of troops lost as well as quality (some of the most esteemed Alliance generals were among the reinforcements sent to Theramore). Finally, given how the civilians noped out of Theramore prior to the bombing, the claim that the bombing was indiscriminate when it had 100% military casualties ratio is as misinformed as the rest.

Really puts into perspective how aggressive the Horde became after Thrall left.

Does it? Because it omits the part where Alliance was the aggressor in the war. So does it really put into perspective how aggressive the Horde became, or that they were no longer willing to take Alliance's shit after they got sick of simmering in a shitty desert thanks to Thrall's green guilt and Alliance appeasement?

Could you link that, please?

https://www.polygon.com/2019/1/9/181...-sylvanas-lore

In the early chapters of The Shattering, Cairne mentions both in internal monologue and out loud to Garrosh that after the Lich King's defeat, there was a ceasefire that was in-depth enough that it clearly lined out where Alliance waters ended and Horde waters began, as an Alliance vessel had been blown off-course during a particularly nasty storm and Garrosh, with the support of the ship's crew, attacked them for supplies--abusing the wording of the treaty rather than the spirit of it to avoid ramifications. The novel and Cataclysm quests are purposefully mum on who threw the first punch that reignited the faction war, with most of the cause being pinned on resource shortages and Twilight's Hammer machinations.

Multiple Alliance questlines and Blizzard comments direct towards Garrosh's invasion of Ashenvale as the big push from the Horde and what drove the Alliance mobilization into an overdrive. The invasion of Ashenvale that followed the Cataclysm (as in the event) and used it as an opportunity to strike the Night Elves while they were disorganized. Even the invasion of Gilneas that for some godforsaken reason is stated to be "de facto" start of the previous faction war on wowpedia (even though Gilneas wasn't even in the Alliance when it happened) followed the Cataclysm destroying the Greymane Wall. And at this point we're out of Horde offensives in this time window. Meanwhile when it comes to Alliance acts of aggression, as per dialogue from an NPC in Southern Barrens, Northwatch's attack on the Crossroads and Honor's Stand predates the Cataclysm.

All of that and more was pointed out in another thread, with proof from quest text that the only activity was spying/observation. The entire thread minus one agreed there was no evidence of sabotage, hostile activity, or any other flights of imagination to that effect. Guess who the minus one was. The whole point of spying on the BElves was because of Kael'thas. Silvermoon didn't know? Great, that's exactly what the Night Elves were trying to find out.

Riiiight. No evidence of hostile activity. Except for the part where members of the invading Sentinel forces literally called Night Elf Ambushers attack the player and quest NPC in the Deliver the Plans to An'telas quest. Or, you know, the whole part of them attacking anyone on sight. Meanwhile absolutely squat in those quests mentioned anything about Kael'thas, Kil'jaeden (whose deal with Kael'thas wasn't known to anyone until late in Outland questing, but don't let the linearity of time stop you from peddling falsehoods) and anything else you claimed in order to justify them. But gee, a bunch of Alliance posters agreed on something that is blatantly false so I guess it magically ceased to be blatantly false because of the power of willful ignorance.

We are aware that you are team blood elf tanaria despite the misleading Night elven capital from my screenshot you used as your avatar picture.

and good for you for pointing out the blood elves had every right to defend themselves, people do if they are being attacked (although in this case I think they took the attack to the spies - so calling it "defending" is rich) but, this is not the point my reply was making. You know right? The main point is that they weren't settlements/bases/villages/towns/cities which is what that list was about.

The Night Elves were invading and intruding on Thalassian territory. One of the quests relating to them is literally called "Into Occupied Territory". Their very presence was a violation of Quel'Thalas' sovereignty. So there's absolutely nothing "rich" about calling Blood Elves dealing with that incursion them defending their land.

The alliance already uses bombs and cannons. Don't blame the horde for using the same measures, albeit bigger.

Actually, the Alliance did use mana bombs as well. They did so at Isle of Thunder.

[Mace]

The Night Elves were invading and intruding on Thalassian territory. One of the quests relating to them is literally called "Into Occupied Territory". Their very presence was a violation of Quel'Thalas' sovereignty. So there's absolutely nothing "rich" about calling Blood Elves dealing with that incursion them defending their land.

Blood elves acting savagely and aggressively, not "high" at all. Usually a civilized nation, would detain or ask questions, not slaughter instantly - especially if said are part of faction that aren't your enemies. You see, it's different if they are outright attacking you coming at you, even the humans didn' slaughter the orcs after they won, instead imprisoning them - something the horde would not have done if the roles were reversed.

In this the blood elves really sink to the level of the savage races they are joining. This is just straight out brutality.. just because you look civilised and appear advanced doesn't always mean you behave so. But it's clear some are fine with this, as long as they loo pretty and have the semblance of civilization, they turn a blind eye or worse, justify it instead.

But then blizzard wanted the blood elves to fit the horde, so the response matches the new tone of these once high elven people. The new high elves, now blood, not high - oh and blood thirsty they do appear. I guess they knew what they were doing when they picked the name huh.

You see, I had generally felt those that became high elves, really returned the true nobility that you would associate with their namesake... something their Highborne predecessors had in the invasion period of the pre-sundering era (few pockets exempted e.g. Farondis Highborne who retained that original nobility)

But as blood elves it's gone again, they are closer to the Zin'Azshari Highborne of the invasion period than they are the high elves and Farondis Highborne. And it was actions like that that highlight these guys aren't "gentile" type civilised nobles - but were now sinking to the level of the races they were joining.

I think later on, they gave up pushing them further in that direction and decided to instead change the identity of the horde o accommodate blood elves more closer to their high elven legacy than the one TFT into TBC was carving out of them.

It's a good thing they did the void elves and now are adding high elf customisation - those who actually want a group of high elf minded Thalassians in that noble heritage can now actually play them. though void instead of light acclamation is a bit of a twist. They seem to have quite the noble ideals though, judging from Umbric's words, Alleria's too.

You want a high elf? Well you can now be one I guess, leaving blood elves to continue down their savage decline.. no wonder their kin want them out of the horde --- bad influence on them.

[Feanoro]

Riiiight. No evidence of hostile activity. Except for the part where members of the invading Sentinel forces literally called Night Elf Ambushers attack the player and quest NPC in the Deliver the Plans to An'telas quest. Or, you know, the whole part of them attacking anyone on sight. Meanwhile absolutely squat in those quests mentioned anything about Kael'thas, Kil'jaeden (whose deal with Kael'thas wasn't known to anyone until late in Outland questing, but don't let the linearity of time stop you from peddling falsehoods) and anything else you claimed in order to justify them. But gee, a bunch of Alliance posters agreed on something that is blatantly false so I guess it magically ceased to be blatantly false because of the power of willful ignorance.

So your argument consists of calling me and others ignorant liars, trying to use game mechanics as lore (mobs flagged hostile in leveling quests, what a new concept!), and cherry picking the parts that support you, since it was known that Blood Elves had attacked the Draenei and were using/feeding on fel magic. Typical. I wonder if you can actually argue at all without flinging insults.

[Thage]

Blood elves acting savagely and aggressively, not "high" at all. Usually a civilized nation, would detain or ask questions, not slaughter instantly - especially if said are part of faction that aren't your enemies. You see, it's different if they are outright attacking you coming at you, even the humans didn' slaughter the orcs after they won, instead imprisoning them - something the horde would not have done if the roles were reversed.

Darnassian saboteurs were killing blood elves on sight while tampering with the sanctums, and in the Ghostlands, they killed blood elves on sight while doing precisely fuck-all against the overwhelming Scourge presence in the area, when the night elves know damn well the threat the Scourge possess from their short time journeying with Kael'thas's men (Tyrande herself almost died holding back waves of Scourge until Illidan and Malfurion bailed her out of trouble).

Also, the blood elves really weren't in a position for thorough investigations and indecision. They were on the brink of extinction as a species and just barely avoiding total societal collapse. Things were bad enough that Lor'themar was exiling or mind-controlling dissidents, and sending golems patrolling the streets to maintain some semblance of order. Indeed, the Horde was reluctant to take the blood elves in at first until the adventurer, with the help of the Forsaken, got things sorted out and proved the blood elves can handle themselves.

When you're in that situation, and you have compelling evidence the Alliance "diplomat" was sent to spy on you while, at the same time, night elves are sabotaging your last functional line of defense, yes, hiring a mercenary to assassinate the spy seems like a reasonable course of action. During that point in the blood elves' story, survival was everything.

The blood elves were taking drastic measures because the alternative was their people die out. Looking at the drastic measures taken by the night elves now that they're on the brink of extinction, can you, Mace, you specifically, as a well-known champion of the night elves here on these forums, really find it that strange that a people desperately scrabbling for survival will drastically loosen their moral code?