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  1. #381
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinrael View Post
    As some other users have pointed out, the point that Jaina was trying to make is that Garrosh murdered civilians, which is not something you do even in a war (supposedly). And he did so in a very indiscriminate way without the slightest care and the damage from the Mana bomb was as much as it was only because one of the greatest mages on Azeroth interfered and mitigated some of it (Rhonin). It would have been worse. He also damages the land itself, enrages the elements and so on. Why Garrosh's actions are despised is very well explained. Everyone is guilty in the conflict to some point, but Garrosh is more than simply "guilty". That is the point of the book at least.
    But he didn't, that's the point. The population was evacuated. This is disregarding that attacks on virtually any target that has civilians in it, which is every city, no matter how militarily important it may be, has collateral. That the only collateral in Theramore occurred after the fact as a result of a separate engagement makes it practically humane compared to something like Southshore or Camp Meme.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  2. #382
    I am Murloc! Chonar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derpleton View Post
    Not true, Varian started the war in UC, hostilities began in WoTLK following the Wrathgate.

    https://youtu.be/PxvQKCJagoI?t=440
    UMmm AKShuLLlllyyyyy
    The war started ummmm when Aggramar seeded Draenor with Grond to ummmm combat the Overgrowwtthh soooooo


    Look back far enough along the cause-and-effect line and you'll start to wear yourself out.
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  3. #383
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    That is overselling Illidan's power somewhat. He took advantage of the instabilities inherent in portal magic, in conjunction with the Sargerite Keystone (itself a very powerful relic), to force uncontrolled portals to destroy Nathreza. The same way Ner'zhul's irresponsible use of another powerful relic, the Scepter of Sargeras, similarly destroyed Draenor in conjunction with a magical ritual.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eto Demerzel View Post
    I belive this have been clarified alredy... he did not destroy a planet with magic or as a mage, he did with the keystone.
    I might have my timelines confused here, but didn't Illidan blow up Nathreza before obtaining the keystone? Did the events in the novel not happen before the demon hunter intro questline in Legion?

  4. #384
    Legendary! Flurryfang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indres View Post
    Blizzard had pretty much confirmed that the barrens conflict was started by North watch and co so I dont really see how it is a war crime

    Jaina was pouring in legions of soldiers, steamtanks and ballista, burns down Taurajo and attacks the great gate, then garrosh has had enough, nukes it and suddenly it’s a war crime. «Innocents died». Innocents don’t matter in wow. There is a world quest where you run over like a thousand goblins with a dark iron golem and its seen as funny and hilarious

    And Im not asking for a pissing contest about how much worse the horde has done, I am asking why its seen as a warcrime and not a legitimate military target *cough*
    I don't think its about it being destroyed, but in how it was destroyed. Its like using gas or biological weapons in war, or in that case a nuke. People are not into that mass destruction, not even in WoW.

    And in the story, Theramore was quite a populated place, not just a place with a tower and a few houses, as it is in-game. So when we talk about innocents die, we are talking about A LOT! of innocents dying in a single moment, with no chance of getting them to safety.

    So yeah, it was justified to destroy Theramore, but it was done in an unjust way.
    May the lore be great and the stories interesting. A game without a story, is a game without a soul. Value the lore and it will reward you with fun!

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  5. #385
    Quote Originally Posted by Sae View Post
    It's been a while since I've even thought about Theramore but it could be that it's considered unjustified not because it wasn't a legitimate military target (it was), but because of the means by which it was destroyed. A mana bomb is instant, leaves zero survivors (despite what you think, civilians are important, and killing them IS a war crime) and is honestly pretty cowardly for the "muh honor" Horde under Garrosh.

    Now if they attacked Theramore with a force of soldiers or by sea, won through skill/numbers/attrition/whatever, and allowed civilians to evacuate (like they pretended happened with Teldrassil) then I don't think it would have been considered unjustified.
    Umm you haven't read the book have you?

    One of the biggest threads of the book is Garrosh methodically plodding along the path to Theramore announcing that he is going to Theramore with a giant ass army.

    The civilians were evacuated. Almost everyone in Theramore was strategic military personnel for the Alliance at that point.... Cause that was his goal. They spend ages sending civilians out and soldiers and leaders in while Garrosh plans to use the Mana Bomb to instantly wipe out the Alliance leadership with it. The book was trying to create fractures in the parts of the Horde with some martial honour verses straight militarism. They didn't do it well because the books by that point were jumping Garrosh down as many villain steps at a time as they could manage without regard to his character (Wolfheart was even more egregious on that).

    Certainly by Horde standards, the use of the Mana Bomb would be seen as dishonourable but it is really, really hard to argue that Theramore's bombing wasn't a legitimate military action. What you could argue is that attacking and raiding a neutral group (the Blue Dragonflight) for the tools to build the Mana Bomb was terrible. You could also argue Garrosh inflicting unnecessary casualties on his own army was terrible. And his use of Dark Shamanism. But the specifics of nuking Theramore... really not that bad.
    All the other stuff tied to it? Terrible.
    I feel like the world but especially these forums needs to see a return of Good Citizenship Classes. That I keep needing to explain to people that private organizations saying "You can't say that here" is them exercising their Freedom of Expression not them impeding yours AND that the enshrined legal right to say something abhorrent does not protect you from the consequences of saying such things, is an absolute indictment of whatever education system these people have gone through.

  6. #386
    It's legit mind-boggling that some people in here believe there was nothing wrong with NUKING A CITY WITH A WEAPON OF MASS DESTRUCTION, Jesus Christ. Blizzard even made a book about it, it's called "War Crimes".
    One shot, one kill. This is how I preserve my realm.

  7. #387
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Douchebag View Post
    I might have my timelines confused here, but didn't Illidan blow up Nathreza before obtaining the keystone? Did the events in the novel not happen before the demon hunter intro questline in Legion?
    It appears you are right - the Sargerite Keystone is retrieved from Mardum, the last world Illidan attacked as the Black Temple was being assaulted. Regardless, I would still say using out of control portals on an already saturated world is not itself an act of just a caster themselves - it is more akin to sabotaging machinery already present and letting it do the destruction for you.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  8. #388
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    It's legit mind-boggling that some people in here believe there was nothing wrong with NUKING A CITY WITH A WEAPON OF MASS DESTRUCTION, Jesus Christ. Blizzard even made a book about it, it's called "War Crimes".
    horde fans are blind, they will try to justify everything their faction dose ,the only one to be blamed for all this madness are jaina and varian, they should have ended the horde when they had the chance .
    " In a Society like this table, a state of equilibrium, once one makes the first move, everyone must follow! In every era, this World has been operating by this napkin principle. And the one who ‘takes the napkin first’ must be someone who is respected by all. It’s not that anyone can fulfill this role… Those that are despotic or unworthy will be scorned. And those are the ‘losers"

  9. #389
    The Lightbringer Minikin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eto Demerzel View Post
    There are universes were Thrall is killed by Blackmoore, the hell i even remember a future were Blackmoore actually killed Terenas and crowned himself King of Lordaeron... that does not mean he has that power, alternative timelines are that, alternative timelines, where a subtle push on a direction can cause a very different outcome.



    You are still thinking and saying that she is a mere normal mage where she has displayed ABOVE the average top skills and even has shown skills that ONLY SHE has been able to do. You still think that Jaina showed no new power yet she literally froze the sea to fight us... who the hell has managed to do that?




    Being strong and above the average does not mean being a god or an invincible character. Also Jaina seems to be quite focused on offensive spellcrafting, not defensive.



    So if we dont know... why you keep bringing it when devs have NOT said it? Just a dev said legion invasions might have something to do about it, but nothing else, nothing more, nothing at all.



    Beating a Red Dragon and a Blue Dragon at the same time is a good feat, but not that unique... Garrosh is not even a mage and single handedly killed a fully mature black dragon with his own axe just being a mere warrior, Ysera, a Dragon Aspect was killed by a bunch of priests and Tyrande and an adventurer, Azuregos, Eranikus... pretty strong dragons were killed by adventurers too. Kalecgos had no special strength and neither Krasus (which always relies on his intelligence, not his raw strength).



    But as a mage he has accomplished nothing...



    Only because Felomelorn, and he used it more as a warrior than a mage...



    So, he lost against a death knight... pretty good achievement as a mage.



    The amani were literally decimated by the combination of the high elves and arathor magical forces, so its safe to assume the amani are not quite adept at defending against magic... if you place them literally someone who can shoot a couple dozen arcane blasts per second i hardly doubt they are going to survive. Sure they got their loas, but that didnt stop them from being killed by adventurers... and Jaina is above them.



    Might have explained myself wrongly, i meant she (Aegwynn) several times felt that there were no one worthy of becoming a Guardian of Tirisfal, so she devised the plot to have a baby... yet when she mets Jaina, she became Jaina's advisor. She who literally trusted no mage and considered all of them unworthy, then became Jaina's closer advisor... why? Cant it be just because she though Jaina was worthy?



    I belive this have been clarified alredy... he did not destroy a planet with magic or as a mage, he did with the keystone.



    She literally protects herself from a whole fleet fire... and thats it not even the point of her power (which is rather more OFFENSIVE than DEFENSIVE). But even, even despite this... a couple minutes or hours (?) after this, she literally stalls the whole horde retaliation group, a raid of adventurers and freezes the sea while the Zandalari just scream "IMPOSSIBLE!!!!". Hell, Jaina's Water Elemental held Nathanos on his own!!

    - - - Updated - - -



    You can add a couple more:

    Cataclysm:
    Horde: Southshore (destroyed by Sylvannas), Dalaran's Remnants (destroyed by Sylvannas), Bael Modan (destroyed by angry Tauren mob), Andorhall (destroyed by Sylvannas), several outposts and small bases across Ashenvale and Azshara.
    Alliance: Shatterspear Tribe in Darkshore (actually they started an atack against Alliance and in return alliance razed their land).
    Oh shit I thought I had South Shore . @bowlink pointed it out too. I'm blind Ty ppl fixed now

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Derpleton View Post
    Not true, Varian started the war in UC, hostilities began in WoTLK following the Wrathgate.

    This is now retconned. The war ok BfA starting with war of thorns is now officially the 4th war.
    Blood Elves were based on a STRONG request from a poll of Asian players where many remarked on the Horde side that they and their girlfriends wanted a non-creepy femme race to play (Source)

  10. #390
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    "Uhergeewd the Horde dropped a bomb on one of our cities and killed CHILDREN! This can never be forgiven!!"

    "Uh, you WERE using it as a major point for military buildup though."

    "CHILDREN!!!"

    "Didn't you put an entire race in concentration camps and made them fight for sport? Including children?"

    "That's different, that was WAR, we had to contain the Orcs or they'd have killed us all, it was a justified preemptive action even if it included an entire race indiscriminately."

    "So if we strike against a military outpost used to wage war against us in the past and serving as a rallying point for a massive force in the present, that's... not war?"

    "YOU'RE MONSTERS!"
    The way you are writing this makes it look like you want to point out the hypocrisy here, but your argument fail to give a foundation for that, because all of the given argument, except the "that's not war?" part are perfectly valid.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    actualy, they had, as far as i can remember theramore was under siege for some time before they bombed it, plus they were warned in advance and managed to get reinforcements and evacuate children and civilians by boat...
    No /10char
    Simply not what happened

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Derpleton View Post
    Not true, Varian started the war in UC, hostilities began in WoTLK following the Wrathgate.

    Just to point this out: The wrathgate was done by Sylvanas as confirmed with BfA, so it was not Varian(alliance) who started it, it was Sylvanas(horde).

  11. #391
    Bloodsail Admiral Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    Towns attacked EDIT: Had no capital cities but it gave an incomplete picture, as it was unfair to the horde by not including Dazar'alor

    Classic: H:1 | A:1
    Horde:
    Pyrewood
    Alliance:
    Stonespire Tribe

    Burning Crusade: H:0 | A:3
    Horde:
    None [Alonsus Chapel and it's refugees doesn't count]
    Alliance:
    An'nowyn
    An'telas
    An'dorath


    Wrath of the Lich King: H:0 | A:0
    Horde:
    None. [No, wrathgate is not a town]
    Minor faction conflict at bases in Borean Tundra
    Alliance:
    None. [No, undercity doesnot count, it is a consequence of Wrathgate event]
    Minor faction conflict at bases in Howling Fjord

    Cataclysm H:6 | A:1
    Horde:
    Astrannar
    Stonetalon
    Southshore
    Ambermill
    Hillsbrad
    Dun Garok
    Tal'darath Grove

    Alliance:
    Taurajo

    Mists of Pandaria: H: 1 | A:0
    Horde:
    Theramore
    Alliance:
    None. [No, Siege doesnt count, it is a consequence of the horde and alliance going against Garrosh]

    WoD: H:0 | A:0
    Horde:
    None.
    Alliance:
    None

    Legion: H:0 | A:0
    Horde:
    None.
    Alliance:
    None.

    BfA: H:9 | A:4
    Horde:
    Maestra's post
    Silverwing refuge
    And that one other night elf output by satyrnar cant recall its name
    Astrannar
    Lordanel
    Darnassus
    Dolannar
    Shadowglen
    Brennadam
    Alliance:
    Deathknell
    Brill
    Undercity* [Attacked by alliance, wrecked by Horde with blight]
    Dazar'alor
    added some
    Last edited by Ardenaso; 2020-06-30 at 02:09 PM.
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  12. #392
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    It's legit mind-boggling that some people in here believe there was nothing wrong with NUKING A CITY WITH A WEAPON OF MASS DESTRUCTION, Jesus Christ. Blizzard even made a book about it, it's called "War Crimes".
    It is indeed. It's called mental gymnastic.. do you not see the crazy shit going on in our society today. It's not surprising how entire groups of people out of spite or loyalties to their fave side, will ignore something that is clearly wrong or try to justify it, I don't mean those who explain it and understand the reasoning but still condemn it, I mean those trying to make I as if it was legit thing to do.

    Did you not notice how some still agreed with Sylvanas - only thing I could think of was because she's hot/sexy and she's their faction so they're on board, wrong or right, and they justify every evil action so silence their conscience.

  13. #393
    Titan Val the Moofia Boss's Avatar
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    Indiscriminate mass murder for no reason. Capturing the city could have been accomplished through conventional means and far fewer lives lost and wiping out the people of Theramore doesn't further the Horde's strategic situation. Nuking the soldiers at Theramore only marginally diminishes the Alliance's military strength (hey, the Horde and the Alliance somehow have enough men to cover four continents, launch an expedition to another world, and constantly be engaged in warfare for decades. The soldiers at Theramore were a drop in the bucket). It's indiscriminate mass murder for the sake of doing so. It's literally for the evulz. Don't forget that Garrosh took the handful of survivors back to Orgrimmar and tortured them and used them for target practice.

    The Horde was billed as a family of honorable outcasts. After Thrall left it became "the evil faction" that I was ashamed to play, what with Sylvanas' and Garrosh's atrocities. And now it seems like we will never get a return to the good old Horde now that we have a "council" instead of Warchief Baine.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    Towns attacked EDIT: Had no capital cities but it gave an incomplete picture, as it was unfair to the horde by not including Dazar'alor

    Classic: H:0 | A:0
    Horde:
    None
    Alliance:
    None

    Burning Crusade: H:0 | A:0
    Horde:
    None
    Alliance:
    None

    Wrath of the Lich King: H:0 | A:0
    Horde:
    None. [No, wrathgate is not a town]
    Minor faction conflict at bases in Borean Tundra
    Alliance:
    None. [No, undercity doesnot count, it is a consequence of Wrathgate event]
    Minor faction conflict at bases in Howling Fjord

    Cataclysm H:2 | A:1
    Horde:
    Astrannar
    Stonetalon
    Southshore
    Alliance:
    Taurajo

    Mists of Pandaria: H: 1 | A:0
    Horde:
    Theramore
    Alliance:
    None. [No, Siege doesnt count, it is a consequence of the horde and alliance going against Garrosh]

    WoD: H:0 | A:0
    Horde:
    None.
    Alliance:
    None

    Legion: H:0 | A:0
    Horde:
    None.
    Alliance:
    None.

    BfA: H:9 | A:4
    Horde:
    Maestra's post
    Silverwing refuge
    And that one other night elf output by satyrnar cant recall its name
    Astrannar
    Lordanel
    Darnassus
    Dolannar
    Shadowglen
    Brennadam
    Alliance:
    Deathknell
    Brill
    Undercity* [Attacked by alliance, wrecked by Horde with blight]
    Dazar'alor


    Stop the merry go round, its silly at this point.
    Really puts into perspective how aggressive the Horde became after Thrall left.

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  14. #394
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    added some
    Hang on a sec, An'owyn, An'daroth (I believe that's the right spelling), and An'telas are not towns, villages or cities, they're camps. The night elves don't kill anyone to set up camp there, they're empty/ruins that have leylines they use to power their scry orbs. They the night elves get attacked in these places. In the last location the night elves attempt to secure their location from the blood elf security force that has tried to remove them, are losing and request the heroe's help.

    So I wouldn't add that as alliance - unless you are considering any operation of the alliance in enemy territory even if it isn't occupied or used.


    Also remember the major alliance cities destroyed
    • Stormwind (horde)
    • Loraderon (scourge)
    • Theramore (horde again)
    • Darnassus (horde again)


    Alliance ain't destroyed any horde city.
    • Silvermoon when it was destroyed was not horde
    • Orgrimmar was attacked not destroyed
    • Dazar'alor was attacked not destroyed

  15. #395
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    This is now retconned. The war ok BfA starting with war of thorns is now officially the 4th war.
    Just because WotLK-MoP war isn't called the 4th war (which it officially never has been to begin with) doesn't mean that it has been retconned...


    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    No /10char
    Simply not what happened
    Except literally everything what @Lolite said there has happened. Theramore was warned by Baine. It was given time by Garrosh who deliberately sat on his ass for a week at Theramore's gates. Which led both to all civilians that wanted to flee fleeing and to Alliance sending reinforcements.


    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    Just to point this out: The wrathgate was done by Sylvanas as confirmed with BfA, so it was not Varian(alliance) who started it, it was Sylvanas(horde).
    Except later interview with Danuser resulted in him not acknowledging Afrasiabi's brain fart in his own interview. Yet another cherry to the pile of Alliance's picking.
    Last edited by Mehrunes; 2020-06-30 at 02:39 PM.
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    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
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    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  16. #396
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    Indiscriminate mass murder for no reason. Capturing the city could have been accomplished through conventional means and far fewer lives lost and wiping out the people of Theramore doesn't further the Horde's strategic situation. Nuking the soldiers at Theramore only marginally diminishes the Alliance's military strength (hey, the Horde and the Alliance somehow have enough men to cover four continents, launch an expedition to another world, and constantly be engaged in warfare for decades. The soldiers at Theramore were a drop in the bucket). It's indiscriminate mass murder for the sake of doing so. It's literally for the evulz. Don't forget that Garrosh took the handful of survivors back to Orgrimmar and tortured them and used them for target practice.
    .
    Garrosh purposefully waits until a large amount of 7th Legion and assorted Alliance forces are committed there, which whether Baine had tipped them off or not would have inevitably given Jaina time to evacuate civilians since both his approach and his camping out there without attacking were purposefully signalled to engineer that exact situation - which, with the exception of those apparently nabbed later and kept in Orgrimmar until the Siege is what she does, per Tides of War. Not only is it accordingly an entirely military venture, the benefit of wiping out a ton of troops, including a segment of the Alliance's most elite, as compared to storming a city with the civilians still in there and then having to hold it versus those same troops coming back to recapture it is obvious. Especially as it then flowed neatly into him using the krakens to wipe out the Alliance fleet sent to relieve the situation. I genuinely have no idea how you could misread the situation or motive to that extent.

    And now it seems like we will never get a return to the good old Horde now that we have a "council" instead of Warchief Baine.
    Ah, that explains it.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2020-06-30 at 02:40 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  17. #397
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    It's legit mind-boggling that some people in here believe there was nothing wrong with NUKING A CITY WITH A WEAPON OF MASS DESTRUCTION, Jesus Christ. Blizzard even made a book about it, it's called "War Crimes".
    "I want to play the bad guys! I want to grind up puppies and set nurseries on fire FER DA HERD! Don't you dare call my character and faction evil!"

    Comes from some hangups about admitting they enjoy playing evil characters, or something.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I'll buy an Anduin shirt if Delaryn doesn't end up betraying Sylvanas by the end of the expansion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
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  18. #398
    Herald of the Titans Dartz1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indres View Post
    Blizzard had pretty much confirmed that the barrens conflict was started by North watch and co so I dont really see how it is a war crime

    Jaina was pouring in legions of soldiers, steamtanks and ballista, burns down Taurajo and attacks the great gate, then garrosh has had enough, nukes it and suddenly it’s a war crime. «Innocents died». Innocents don’t matter in wow. There is a world quest where you run over like a thousand goblins with a dark iron golem and its seen as funny and hilarious

    And Im not asking for a pissing contest about how much worse the horde has done, I am asking why its seen as a warcrime and not a legitimate military target *cough*
    Yes but Jaina didn't deserve to lose her gf bodyguard was so unfair and wrong im so glad thrall avenged her and eliminated garrosh for good hope he never is seen a gain was such a terrible orc.
    You can't take what ya can't see... *rolls d20* You rolled a natural 20* The skill of stealth is successful.

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  19. #399
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    "I want to play the bad guys! I want to grind up puppies and set nurseries on fire FER DA HERD! Don't you dare call my character and faction evil!"

    Comes from some hangups about admitting they enjoy playing evil characters, or something.
    An attitude I've never really understood, myself. It's fine to enjoy playing evil characters in a fictional context - I enjoyed the Horde campaign in WC1 and WC2 immensely, just enjoying being evil for evil's sake in terms of the game. My main issue with the Horde as presented in WoW is with the narrative surrounding the Horde, not really an issue with the players. The developers and writers seem, as is typical, to want to have their cake and eat their cake simultaneously. They depict the Horde committing unarguably evil acts but still cleave to the reformations in WC3, trying to exist in a state that is mutually exclusive. Thrall's Horde as show in WC3 would've never permitted Teldrassil to occur, in my view. The same is true of Theramore before it.

    Basically put, they need to make a final decision and cast the Horde as either good or evil, and stop playing both ends against the middle as it were. It's understandable players are confused about the Horde right now - whereas with the Alliance you more or less know where you stand when it comes to ethical generalities.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  20. #400
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    An attitude I've never really understood, myself. It's fine to enjoy playing evil characters in a fictional context - I enjoyed the Horde campaign in WC1 and WC2 immensely, just enjoying being evil for evil's sake in terms of the game. My main issue with the Horde as presented in WoW is with the narrative surrounding the Horde, not really an issue with the players. The developers and writers seem, as is typical, to want to have their cake and eat their cake simultaneously. They depict the Horde committing unarguably evil acts but still cleave to the reformations in WC3, trying to exist in a state that is mutually exclusive. Thrall's Horde as show in WC3 would've never permitted Teldrassil to occur, in my view. The same is true of Theramore before it.

    Basically put, they need to make a final decision and cast the Horde as either good or evil, and stop playing both ends against the middle as it were. It's understandable players are confused about the Horde right now - whereas with the Alliance you more or less know where you stand when it comes to ethical generalities.
    Thrall's Horde actually SAVED a World Tree from total destruction, so yeah.
    One shot, one kill. This is how I preserve my realm.

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