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  1. #521
    Quote Originally Posted by Hubbl3 View Post
    I always wonder what your goal here is. You want to convince people that Orcs are evil, just for the sake of winning your argument? Because on the one hand, Orcs are not going away in the game, they are never going to lose much, they are not going to pay for their crimes or anything at all. They will continue to be a major part of warcraft until the franchise dies. Also people love playing evil factions. On the other hand, Blizz loves their Orcs so even in out of game material they will always have some kind of redeeming qualities, as intended by Blizz. Even if they fail to convey these from time to time. I mean, Blizz did the whole "Draenor is free" thing and after that painted the Draenei as evil crusaders who wanted to forcefully convert poor Orcs.
    If nothing else, I counter the nonsense that Orcs are poor victims and everyone else is to blame for the dripping axes in their hands. It amuses me to do so. Convincing anyone of anything on an internet forum is not a realistic goal, especially MMO-C where feelings beat facts all the time.

    Let me ask you then, why do you post here? Why do you think anyone does?

    The problem is people who enjoy the evil faction, but have some kind of hang up about it being called evil and go to absurd lengths to twist events to avoid that. Do you realize we have people here excusing multiple massacres, genocidal wars, horrific torture, and murdering parents in front of their small children? And that list is just for starters.

    Others have no problem saying "I enjoy playing an evil character", because they correctly understand that doesn't somehow make them a bad person.
    Last edited by Feanoro; Yesterday at 02:18 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I'll buy an Anduin shirt if Delaryn doesn't end up betraying Sylvanas by the end of the expansion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  2. #522
    Old God Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Yes, and the rest of the Draenei fought them when they had the chance and the strength. Orcs only atoned for their sins on their own only because Thrall wanted them to atone.
    Orcs also fought against gul'dan and other bad ones, they fought against the legion and helped in hyjal, when they could be on the bad side, they also literally destroyed the dark horde that was causing problems to the alliance, and they still see then as enemies

    again, funny how you want o paint me as hypocrite #2

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    If nothing else, I counter the nonsense that Orcs are poor victims and everyone else is to blame for the dripping axes in their hands.
    you are basically fighting vigorously and religiously against a point no one made.

  3. #523
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    you are basically fighting vigorously and religiously against a point no one made.
    Except for half of the Horde posters in this thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I'll buy an Anduin shirt if Delaryn doesn't end up betraying Sylvanas by the end of the expansion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  4. #524
    Old God Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Except for half of the Horde posters in this thread.
    no one is doing that, you are projecting thinking that since someone said draeneis also are to blame, they automatically are excusing all the orcs for their sins

  5. #525
    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    INteresting argument, Are you implying demon corruption is a mitigating factor in one's actions? And yet you STILL talk about orc actions under demon influence?
    You nicely circle around my point, but miss it completely. The Orcs are responsible because they drank Mannoroth blood out of their own free will, twice. They wanted the power to be conqueres so they greedily accepted it. Mediv on the other hand was corrupted before his birth, he never had the choice the Orcs made.

    So of course corruption matters, but if you corrupt yourself by choice you don't get a free pass. Which is why Gul'dan and the Orcs are absolutely responsible for their crimes (as are Kil'jaeden and the non-Draenei Eredar), while Mediv is not.

    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    Lordaeron fell through a series of issues, unwillingness of King Terenas to listen to warnings, multiple allied parties backing out in time of need, multiple organizations taking whatever actions were going on and differnt parties running off to leeroy their way around the world. To say it was strictly the Lich King... is well, you're sounding an aweful lot like my draenei argument (which if you still haven't picked up is a joke because of how you argue these subject matters)
    There were internal problems that resulted in the defense against the scourge not working as well as it could have yes. But the actual fall and destruction of Lordaeron was planned and caused by the Lich King, starting with the Cult of the Damned and Kel'thuzad and culminating in Arthas being send to murder his father.

    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    Thing is that whole culture is still an aberration derived from exposure to the legion. you like to fall back on how Thrall is the unique change to this status quo that is only present because the legion found and used the orcs
    How excatly did the Orc status quo change through Legion influence? They were in constant war long before, with ogres, gron and among themselves. The demon blood only made them stronger and even more agressive and helped them with their wish to conquer others.

    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    This logic is over zealous. Unpunished? Slaughtering of people was going both ways and still continued. You're implying that it is perfectly reasonable to condemn the losers of war to indefinite punishment with no end. THAT'S what the internment act was... Sure the story doesn't go on to where it would have AFTER since Lordaeron fell, but there's only 2 options. either the orcs would be freed since they were going into lethargic non-raging actions without fel interactions OR someone would have gone the final solution route to deal with these invaders.
    Being beaten back in a war that YOU started is not considered "punishment". And no I am not saying it is reasonable to imprison them. I am saying it was merciful. A completely rational mind would have slaughtered them all so they cannot become a threat again in the future.
    You seem to somehow want to paint the picture of Orcs as an innocent crowd of civilians that were put in a concentration camps by the nazi Alliance, but they simply aren't.
    They are invaders and mass murderers, they slaughtered everyone in their way on two planets, children and civilians included, they are imprisoned because of those crimes. Life-long yes, because that is a fitting punishment for all the lifes they took. The Alternative was slaughtering them, which was not chosen out of mercy.

    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    And with your's you would condemn those who resemble murderers and psychopaths because someone had a bad time with them in the past. Nevermind that you also use violent history as a blanket argument in your justifications (note: no civilization has an entirely peaceful history )
    Bull. We are not talking about racial profiling here. The Orcs in the camps were very much still mainly invaders, with the exception of just a few that might have been born in them. Also nice job trying to undersell mass murder and the destruction of whole cities as "bad time". Show that you basically don't think the Orcs did anything wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    *reads title of thread....*
    "Attacking" and "nuking into a radioactive zone of death" are two different things. Not that I expect you to udnerstand this, it is clear that such acts are only a crime to you when the Alliance does them. The Orcs and Horde can do as they please and if someone tries to punish them for it, they are basically nazis.

    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    That's all fine and dandy until you're off doing the exact same bullshit. Getting back and invaders by invading their land and destroying their shit still makes you a blood thirsty invader. This is always what strips you of any moral high ground in a discussion about moral justifications.
    Hardly. The Orcs had attacked TWICE already (you might have heard of these events called the First and Second War, both started by Orcs and no one else), the Second War "had raged on for over a year, and had seen the destruction of villages and populations on an unprecedented scale, leaving entire kingdoms devastated in its wake." (quoted from Wowpedia, "Second War")
    And you seriously are telling me that after all this the Alliance should have just shrugged and waited for the Orcs to come back a THIRD time to finish the job? With that kind of a backstory there is no question that the Invasion of Draenor was justified. It was not about revenge it was about preventing the Orcs to come back AGAIN. They were a clear and present threat and had already proven that they do not give up.

    Again you argue as if any of the crimes the Orcs commited haven't happened and they are innocents in all this, which could not be further from the truth. I don't know who you want to convince with that, because it sure won't work on anyone that does not share your bias.

    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    I don't have to sell the bold point.... the lore does a fine job setting that up on it's own.
    Maybe the current one does, but you are trying to sell the point that the past Alliance was an evil organisation that murdered and imprisoned innocent creatures, when the only thing they have done is make smart decisions about an invading force of bloodthirsty monsters.

    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    If you're using human logic they have drastically changed the definition as it is being taught in school.
    Depends what you learned. How about "cause and effect": "If you are invading a planet and murder innocents, you do not get to cry when you are punished for it."

    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    How exactly would they go about that? They elves didn't mark the territory in any way the orcs would recognize, the humans didn't notice either... both got feathered for existing in a fashion that seemed to work together with one another.
    Considering how quickly they met the elves when they were getting lumber I dare say it would not have been that hard to check. But I already admited the Elves could have handled it better.

    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    except you've already determined they are exclusively a threat in almost all cases...
    And what indication was there during this time after two wars started by them to think differently? They HAD to be controlled. You cannot just let creatures that attacked you twice and slaughtered your people run free. Maybe if you weren't so completely biased you would realize how unreasonable that argument is.

    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    Hell forced internment camps is something i would think wouldn't be getting praised in an era telling people to be wary of nazi ideas. But hey, when you accidentally force their homeworld to the brink in a counter invasion I guess sending them home wasn't an option.
    Again you are trying to sell the picture of the Orcs as innocents and when I argue against it you call me a racist and nazi, which by itself is already quite disguting. The difference is very easy: The jews were innocent, the japanese americans were innocent, the Orcs were not.
    They commited horrible crimes and got punished for them. That is all. I can't help you if you want to pretend like the First and Second War never happened, but insulting me for not following your headcannon is quite low.

    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    Really... cause I feel you'd just disregard literally anything and argue it was some other source.
    I would argue your point for sure. That is how this thing here works. Yet since you are not making one, I cannot and only call you out for more evasion.

    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    They by and large refrain from backstabbing except in some gross examples like a certain warchief and his cronies that only rose up during his stint in command.

    Fact is if an orc doesn't like you they won't hide the fact. Meanwhile humans over there post child backstabbing left and right. House of Nobles mind you and court games being played or hell Genn's entire demeanor BEFORE he was turned into weebwolf goodboy for Varian.

    Also first point and you already scoff it. No surprise there.
    I scoff at this point because compared to all the crimes they commited repeatedly it is cute but hardly substantial.

    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    Note how I said a certain warchief is the main thing you'd say against it. So outside Garrosh and his cronies, Gul'dan etc... how many orcs are you willing to say are intelligent enough to lie and cheat?
    Now you have me confused, are you saying that Orcs are too stupid to be devious and that is a positive trait? I... guess?

    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    Yup keep talking about Garrosh and his cronies are such bad apples and enough to make the entire orc race look bad. See this is why I view your position so poorly. You want to berate the orcs for Garrosh and Gul'dan and Blackhand... then ignore Medivh's part in the invasion becuase he was possessed by fel magics (hmmm....) and distance away from Garithos because he wasn't the current alliance (not the current group...)
    And Grom and Kilrogg and tons of others. Several of which have not been corrupted by fel before commiting their crimes. I didn't even mention Garithos, but I think he is a racist bastard towards groups that never did anything to him, if that helps you. He got what he deserved.
    His troops however had no responsibility for his decisions and in fact hated him just as much as the Forsaken and Blood Elves did, yet Sylvanas had those slaughtered just as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    Really? it seems you are quick to argue about how justified such an act is for a blood thirsty band of invaders who have confirmed to destroyed cities....
    Yup, it was justified, every last bit of it. Doesn't mean I wanted it to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    Well you certainly don't make that hard.
    Sure, if you read from my words whatever you want to read.

    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    I think loss of country, culture, lives to that point, and the war itself was already a rather damning punishment. Voluntarily exiling themselves from the continent and the regions humans were inhabiting was more than enough. Why do you insist that the humans needed to exact even further punishment from them?
    Again, being beaten in a war that you started is not punishment. It is just loosing the war. If the loss of life on your own side bothers you it would have been smart to not start the war in the first place.
    And again despite your fantasies, the Orcs had at that point after breaking out of the camps not given any indication that they would not just restock their numbers and come at the Alliance again in a few years. They had done nothing yet that would make them deservng of that trust you demand for them. It is a different story after they helped against the Legion, but at this time they are just fugitives running from the just punishment they got for starting two wars and several massacres.


    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    That'd be a sight better than leading the burning legion around the nether.
    So let me get this straight, you demand these innocents to let themselves be slaughtered, because Orcs are too weak-willed to resist the temptation of the fel and thus you blame everything on the Draenei for the horrendous crime of wanting to live.

    Yeah, I would like to say we have reached the bottom level of Horde apologist polemic, but we all know they will just find something more ridiculous.
    Last edited by Raisei; Today at 01:07 PM.

  6. #526
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    the difference is:
    sylvanas war a warchief all the way until she ran off after killing saurfang in a makgora by cheating.
    arthas stopped being a prince or king of lordaeron the moment he became a deathknight, and especailly when he stabbed his dad.
    Sylvanas didn't cheat as magic is not forbidden in a Mak'gora. Also, you may have to inform Arthas about him not being king of Lordaeron, because he very much considered him to be one (with a rather twisted perception of his relationship with his "subjects").


    Quote Originally Posted by Fixxit the Gnome View Post
    Garrosh genocided a city-state and people are trying to justify that?

    Lmao.
    Could it be people other than you can actually use the term correctly?


    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    you are basically fighting vigorously and religiously against a point no one made.
    Well, @Feanoro did say something about feelings beating facts, so in a way they kinda indirectly and preemptively admitted that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  7. #527
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Well, @Feanoro did say something about feelings beating facts, so in a way they kinda indirectly and preemptively admitted that.
    Is it remotely possible for you to argue without twisting words?

    I said:
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Convincing anyone of anything on an internet forum is not a realistic goal, especially MMO-C where feelings beat facts all the time.
    If you want specifics, that was in reply to someone asking why I argue against the "innocent orcs" and "Draenei should have let the Legion kill them" memes. Put another way, since on forums feelings (such as the Horde talking points trying to excuse their long list of atrocities) beat facts, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything.
    Last edited by Feanoro; Today at 04:00 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I'll buy an Anduin shirt if Delaryn doesn't end up betraying Sylvanas by the end of the expansion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

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