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  1. #301
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Except the staff performs a spell effect when put in the quest location and all the magical tendrils or whatever you want to call them go to the ceiling in a small radius and do fuck all about Lei Shen. If you kill Lei Shen in the corner he's not even remotely touched by them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    You missed a step, the staff floats into the direction of the ceiling and power from it channels into the staff, Jaina then feels that power
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    And the draining effect that activates when you put the staff in position doesn't even look in Lei Shen's corpse general direction. The staff drains just the vicinity of the dais that Lei-Shen was using throughout the fight that was supposedly his "source of power".
    Since you both keep the same i prefer replying both at same time. The depiction in game from an act does not mean that is how it happened, think for example about how small the Well of Eternity is compared to the original one.
    But okay, lets just concede this one, if you can simply explain to me how Jaina literally got several times stronger without doing anything at all. There is no other explanation, no other situation, no other training, nothing at all that affects her power aside from THAT quest, where she specifically asks you to bring the power of Lei Shen back and when you bring it, she says she can feel it.

    She might be wrong and might be just a part? Who knows, but literally that moment, that single moment is the only moment in the whole recent wow where she has shown any attempt to improve her strength and she CONFIRMS it.



    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Yes, potential for power is not the same as current power. That's... kinda what the word "potential" indicates. Again, in the very same book as the one in which she became the leader of the Council of Six because of that prophecy she failed to do literally anything to someone she wanted to kill while attacking that person with all of her might.
    Well, Antonidas died in WC3 which happens like 10 or 15 years before? So probably he indicated that she has potential to become the strongest mage like 20 years ago... 20 years is more than enough to improve quite a lot. Also, i was just re-reading and she did not become leader of the Kirin Tor due to a profecy, she seems to have offered rejoining as a novice and the council were the ones who decided to ask her become their leader which, profecy aside, makes sense since she is way stronger than Modera, Ansirem, Karlain and Aethas, who else would have been able to take the rulership of a magical kingdom if not the most proficient mage active?


    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Right now. That says nothing about Jaina ~4 years ago. And my fragment from Tides of War does no such thing because Jaina was utterly failing in combat even in War Cimes (to the point she got nearly killed by a meaningless twerp and had to be saved by a divine intervention from Chi Ji) which happens AFTER Isle of Thunder.
    War Crimes novel is a crime itself and you know it. I havent managed to fully read it, but the fact is that she gets shoot in the back while she is fighting a version of herself from an alternative timeline... so i guess if you had to fight yourself AND people shooting at your back, you'd be dead too, even if you were Sargeras.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Us not knowing where Wrathion was doesn't preclude the Legion from being able to find him. Eonar was hidden in a sanctuary in a dark corner of the cosmos but the Legion still managed to crawl up her ass. Also, we literally saw Wrathion getting the same warning from Aman'thul of the Pantheon's fall that Ra did when he got possessed by Aman'thul's soul, so it's not exactly just a theory that Wrathion got his soul.
    I agree, not knowing were Wrathion is does not make the Legion unable to find him, the fact that he NEVER stated it, he NEVER showed any damage, or that we were able to found him like we found Eonar... it gives vibes that probably Legion never found him, because Legion did not need to find him.

    How did Wrathion survive then if the Legion found him? Why the Legion would leave a Dragon Aspect after draining the soul of Aman'thul from him? It doesnt make sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    The battle at undercity is the outlier, afterwards she does not display such power again and is easily outclassed by Azshara later on.
    Azshara was alredy the mightiest mage 10.000 years ago, and now she is directly empowered by N'Zoth and was one of the main antagonist of the expansion. The fact that she is able to best Jaina is no surprise, it would actually be surprising that she could beat Azshara. But again, no, Jaina showed she still has extremelly strong power in Dazar'Alor, where she literally froze an entire sea for a couple minutes while fighting the Horde Champions. Have you ever seen any other mage display such raw power?
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    How would Jaina not have noticed her staff lost its main power then?
    Its simple, she didnt. The fact that a developer had to answer with a question just gives a hint that Blizzard has not confirmed that fact. I mean, he could have clearly stated "Legion got into Ulduar and stole it", but he said "Didnt you saw Legion invasions?" Which honestly answers nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    And we have an ingame cinematic, with her being steamrolled in Zuldazar intro and then being taken by Sylvanas minions at the beginning of shadowlands, where she is constantly being beaten and stuffed in a cage again, though they might change the later part.
    We know that she has been taken by Sylvannas minions into Shadowlands, but as far as i have read, we dont know how they managed to pull it... also she is not the only one who has been taken.

  2. #302
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daronokk View Post
    Bollocks. He specifically waited for the civilians to evacuate.
    Garrosh did not wait "to let the civilians escape." He waited to let as much Alliance military to congregate in Theramore to kill as many as possible in one fell swoop.

    Another evidence that Garrosh didn't care for civilians? In the Siege of Orgrimmar raid, we see Theramore civilians being tortured and hanged on the streets.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  3. #303
    Quote Originally Posted by Eto Demerzel View Post
    if you can simply explain to me how Jaina literally got several times stronger without doing anything at all. There is no other explanation, no other situation, no other training, nothing at all that affects her power aside from THAT quest, where she specifically asks you to bring the power of Lei Shen back and when you bring it, she says she can feel it.
    Sure there is she got a portion of Lei shen's power stored in the ceiling, but not a freaking piece of a titan, which should have boosted her powers considerably more.

    She might be wrong and might be just a part? Who knows, but literally that moment, that single moment is the only moment in the whole recent wow where she has shown any attempt to improve her strength and she CONFIRMS it.
    It was never contended that she got power, just that she did not get the powersource.


    War Crimes novel is a crime itself and you know it. I havent managed to fully read it, but the fact is that she gets shoot in the back while she is fighting a version of herself from an alternative timeline... so i guess if you had to fight yourself AND people shooting at your back, you'd be dead too, even if you were Sargeras.
    Yet she did not display significant powers throughout the entire fight, which is the point and she had her staff at the time.


    How did Wrathion survive then if the Legion found him? Why the Legion would leave a Dragon Aspect after draining the soul of Aman'thul from him? It doesnt make sense.
    Well the other titan keepers are still alive and they all had a piece taken as well.

    Azshara was alredy the mightiest mage 10.000 years ago, and now she is directly empowered by N'Zoth and was one of the main antagonist of the expansion. The fact that she is able to best Jaina is no surprise, it would actually be surprising that she could beat Azshara. But again, no, Jaina showed she still has extremelly strong power in Dazar'Alor, where she literally froze an entire sea for a couple minutes while fighting the Horde Champions. Have you ever seen any other mage display such raw power?
    Dar'khan drathir
    Kel'thuzad
    Kael'thas
    Anasterian
    Aegwynn
    Any guardian for that matter
    Illidan
    Elisande

  4. #304
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Keep ignoring scope. Keep ignoring the Alliance perpetually stuck in the reacting role. Keep ignoring that the Alliance "answers" to the Horde for their acts in the form of being murdered in the massacre du jour.

    You disappoint me.
    I don't know why you're telling me this, I was quoting Soon-TM quoting someone else. You know my stance on most of this - that the Alliance is in a dire state, and the Horde becoming its low-rent clone which now has all the downsides with none of the theoretically robust cast that gets focus in 'neutral' expansions is why it fails, ergo that both need to be proactive.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    well yeah, of course; Garrosh was already just fukked up by the time he got the heart
    The Heart itself is one of the things that're supposed to be bad but haven't aged well given the presence of Void Elves, Shadow Priests and so forth, but at the time it wasn't actaully decisive - the races had already turned against him before that for separate reasons and it's unclear if they were even all that aware of it until 5.4.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  5. #305
    Was it? It was seen as brutally cruel, since Theramore was both a martial port and a town full of shopkeepers and the like. Even that was hardly new for the Horde, as we saw in Ashenvale, where they didn't even bother cleaning up the bodies before setting up shop.

    As for Baine, I'd imagine he saw the senseless loss of life as something to avoid, and that Jaina wouldn't take this sitting down and would double down aggression towards the Horde. Far from protecting the tauren, it would put them at even greater risk. It definitely caught him between a rock and a hard place and was not his finest moment. His history of aiding the Alliance to maintain bonds between the factions and work towards lasting peace for the perceived long-term good is well documented.
    Last edited by Powerogue; 2020-06-29 at 04:24 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Having the authority to do a thing doesn't make it just, moral, or even correct.

  6. #306
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    As for Baine, I'd imagine he saw the senseless loss of life as something to avoid, and that Jaina wouldn't take this sitting down and would double down aggression towards the Horde. Far from protecting the tauren, it would put them at even greater risk. It definitely caught him between a rock and a hard place and was not his finest moment. His history of aiding the Alliance to maintain bonds between the factions and work towards lasting peace for the perceived long-term good is well documented.
    Theramore forces had not only already stretched over half the Southern Barrens by that point, but after Taurajo had besieged the Great Gate, an attack that was only stopped because of the people he'd exiled and the orcs he'd dismissed. All in a war that the Horde didn't start, and as lead in the case of S. Barrens by the dude who wiped out the Stonespire Tribe because he wanted to dig on their land. The situation is about as morally complicated as an episode of He-Man.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  7. #307
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I don't know why you're telling me this, I was quoting Soon-TM quoting someone else. You know my stance on most of this - that the Alliance is in a dire state, and the Horde becoming its low-rent clone which now has all the downsides with none of the theoretically robust cast that gets focus in 'neutral' expansions is why it fails, ergo that both need to be proactive.
    All the more reason my surprise that you'd endorse that quoted quote (quote-ception? ). That concept is used by posters who either will not or cannot separate Doyle and Watson, usually involving a LOT of vitriol towards Alliance inclined posters. Some of the gems of logic around it include:

    - "When Horde posters explain why the Horde did something, it's explaining. When Alliance posters explain why the Alliance did something, it's LYING and WHITEWASHING!"

    - "Five (or any small number, I picked randomly) dead Horde clearly justifies burning a city to the ground with no survivors!"

    - "Damn what the writers say, Horde is right about $event!"

    - "Alliance started it... FOR NO REASON!"

    While we come at this from two different Watsonian perspectives (ya dirty Hordie! ), we usually find common ground as Doyle. Since that quote directly contradicts your stated stances, I was a bit shocked at your seeming endorsement of it. Maybe I misunderstood your purpose?
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  8. #308
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    While we come at this from two different Watsonian perspectives (ya dirty Hordie! ), we usually find common ground as Doyle. Since that quote directly contradicts your stated stances, I was a bit shocked at your seeming endorsement of it. Maybe I misunderstood your purpose?
    It's not my position, that's why I chimed in when it was attributed to me and assume it came from Mehrunes. I think you know my positions fairly well at this point - tl;dr the Alliance has the moral highground massively in the BFA war, Garrosh was broadly justified and Blizzard think everyone who wants to fight back when their people are attacked, be he man, elf or cow is pure evil and capitulating to those who harm your people is the highest form of virtue and leadership.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2020-06-29 at 04:37 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  9. #309
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    It's not my position, that's why I chimed in when it was attributed to me and assume it came from Mehrunes. I think you know my positions fairly well at this point - tl;dr the Alliance has the moral highground massively in the BFA war, Garrosh was broadly justified and Blizzard think everyone who wants to fight back when their people are attacked, be he man, elf or cow is pure evil and capitulating to those who attack and harm your people is the highest form of virtue and leadership.
    Ah, then from one word there, I understand how I mistook your meaning. Sorry about that.

    Agreed, partially agree, wholeheartedly agree on those positions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  10. #310
    Quote Originally Posted by Engal View Post
    I don't know how to explain it, but every single time the horde commit a genocide, there are always pro horde who say " it's justified, X killed a few random NPC there ! "
    you are being sarcastic right? its EXACTLY the opposite, horde as much as farts and people are calling it war crime, alliance burns innocent civilians or feed them to sharks and its justified, bcs someone else did something, or horde started, or horde use blight so alliance can burn people...

    i mean horde did a lot of terrible things, but if people on forums try to twist anything to justify actions of one side its alliance, especialy here, just read through this thread and you will see...

  11. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Ah, then from one word there, I understand how I mistook your meaning. Sorry about that.

    Agreed, partially agree, wholeheartedly agree on those positions.
    Don't get me wrong, I'd love to argue in favor of the Horde rather than against some of its participants, this is why I love topics like this where I actually get to be a proper partisan, but BFA has mostly contained me to intra-Horde bs where everyone is some variant of culpable, disingenuous or retarded and the occasional pro-Tyrande post.

    All the stuff with Stormheim, people's assumptions on war, azerite's potential for WMDs and so forth are nullified when one side is lead by Anduin and it is said by omniscient narration from Day 1 that he would offer everything on a silver platter and the people making in-story arguments for war are either lying, tricked or disavow their points.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  12. #312
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    intra-Horde bs where everyone is some variant of culpable, disingenuous or retarded.
    Yeah... So much for the supposed "faction pride" expansion
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    WoD was the expansion that was targeted at non raiders.

  13. #313
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Yeah... So much for the supposed "faction pride" expansion
    Yeah well, that ended in the pre-patch when the Horde toasted a city tree and the Alliance was helpless to stop it.

    Well, or it should have probably, there are after all several folks who take great pride in following the zombie psychopath and having murdered nightelf children. They probably had their faction pride up till the end.

  14. #314
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    It's seen as a war crime because Garrosh nuked the city, without any care or concern for the civilian population nonetheless. Furthermore, Garrosh vowed he would conquer all of Kalimdor for the Horde. He would've attacked Theramore regardless of Jaina's actions. The only ones responsible for Theramore's fall are Garrosh and Thrall, who entrusted all the military power to a crazy warmonger. There's a reason why in BfA Thrall cites Theramore as one of his greatest failures.

    Those goblin were not innocents. They were military personnel of the Horde army who went to Zandalar for war purposes.
    Would it have been better if horde blocked off 3 sides and forced the civilians into a bottleneck to get massacred by a couple of non-horde races that were already trying to exterminate the alliance in Theramore? Ya know, like Taurajo?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sae View Post
    It's been a while since I've even thought about Theramore but it could be that it's considered unjustified not because it wasn't a legitimate military target (it was), but because of the means by which it was destroyed. A mana bomb is instant, leaves zero survivors (despite what you think, civilians are important, and killing them IS a war crime) and is honestly pretty cowardly for the "muh honor" Horde under Garrosh.

    Now if they attacked Theramore with a force of soldiers or by sea, won through skill/numbers/attrition/whatever, and allowed civilians to evacuate (like they pretended happened with Teldrassil) then I don't think it would have been considered unjustified.
    Killing civvies is only a war crime if it's done by the horde.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Yeah well, that ended in the pre-patch when the Horde toasted a city tree and the Alliance was helpless to stop it.

    Well, or it should have probably, there are after all several folks who take great pride in following the zombie psychopath and having murdered nightelf children. They probably had their faction pride up till the end.
    The alliance was far from stopping it. We could have started evacuating as soon as we saw the horde coming to occupy the tree. We could have also not expected zero retaliation for the events in arathi.

  15. #315
    The Lightbringer Minikin's Avatar
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    Southshore?
    Blood Elves were based on a STRONG request from a poll of Asian players where many remarked on the Horde side that they and their girlfriends wanted a non-creepy femme race to play (Source)

  16. #316
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Sure there is she got a portion of Lei shen's power stored in the ceiling, but not a freaking piece of a titan, which should have boosted her powers considerably more.
    Fair enough, as i said earlier i dont want to discuss the bottom of how much power or if she got the soul of aman'thul or not, i was simply stating that she got a power up strong enough to level up small sized cities (she could obliterate Bree for example) and she can potentially almost destroy capital cities. Yet she does not do it... why? Not because of Kalecgos or Thrall, because she (literally said) realized she would be doing the same that Arthas did. She has morals, and her morals prevent her to fully unleash her power over the Horde. And this happens literally to every branch of the Alliance.



    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    It was never contended that she got power, just that she did not get the powersource.
    You know, its fun that you mention that nobody contends that she got power but then proced to say this:


    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Yet she did not display significant powers throughout the entire fight, which is the point and she had her staff at the time.
    If she displayed the power once, and it has never been shown that it was a temporary power (like an enhancement, or use of the focusing iris or any tool like that), its quite safe to asume that power is permanent.


    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Well the other titan keepers are still alive and they all had a piece taken as well.
    Sure, a Dreadlord sneak upon Odyn while he was sleeping in Halls of Valor and took his piece (which btw it was a piece of Aman'Thul soul too).

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Dar'khan drathir
    Kel'thuzad
    Kael'thas
    Anasterian
    Aegwynn
    Any guardian for that matter
    Illidan
    Elisande
    Dar'Khan Drathir actually never did anything worthwhile aside from betraying the Blood Elves.
    Kel'Thuzad is not a mage anymore, he is a Lich, class Necromancer.
    Kael'Thas never managed to accomplish anything with his own power nowhere close to Jaina's degree, what was his greatest achievement as a mage? Tame a Phoenix?
    Anasterian also didnt made anything worth at all. He was being bested by the Amani Tribe and choosed to teach magic to the humans from Arathor to fight a common enemy... dont you think Jaina could have simply destroyed the whole Amani Tribe with her flying ship that shooted arcane blasts en masse?
    Aegwynn i honestly dont feel up to discuss about her, since she has been changed several times. But she became advisor of Jaina and one of her masters... she did think she was above everybody and had no need to pass her power to another mage, yet she choosed to teach Jaina, i wonder why...
    Illidan is no mage.
    Elisande is actually a good point, she was a very strong and experienced mage, but her powers seems to require rituals to be fully enhanced... when she is caught of guard she seems to be a normal (perhaps quite adept) spellcaster.

  17. #317
    Quote Originally Posted by Eto Demerzel View Post
    Not because of Kalecgos or Thrall, because she (literally said) realized she would be doing the same that Arthas did. She has morals, and her morals prevent her to fully unleash her power over the Horde. And this happens literally to every branch of the Alliance.
    There are universes where she goes through with it and is killed as a consequence.



    You know, its fun that you mention that nobody contends that she got power but then proced to say this:
    There is no contradiction, what Jaina displayed there was well within the limits of the powers she got, the emphasis was on significant


    If she displayed the power once, and it has never been shown that it was a temporary power (like an enhancement, or use of the focusing iris or any tool like that), its quite safe to asume that power is permanent.
    And we see her being beaten, outsmarted, overpowered and exhausted a couple of times, she is not a force of nature, she is good but not very far above other skilled magi



    Sure, a Dreadlord sneak upon Odyn while he was sleeping in Halls of Valor and took his piece (which btw it was a piece of Aman'Thul soul too).
    Is it stupid yes it is, but it is what happened and we don't really know how.


    Dar'Khan Drathir actually never did anything worthwhile aside from betraying the Blood Elves.
    He beat Krasus and Kalec by himself

    Kel'Thuzad is not a mage anymore, he is a Lich, class Necromancer.
    He is still very much a mage and uses his spellcraft from time to time.

    Kael'Thas never managed to accomplish anything with his own power nowhere close to Jaina's degree, what was his greatest achievement as a mage? Tame a Phoenix?
    Stood up to Arthas and the latter considered him one of the most dangerous mages he faced, he put him above Antonidas.

    Anasterian also didnt made anything worth at all
    He melted Arthas little ice bridge and teleported circles around the guy and would have actually beaten him in his prime.

    dont you think Jaina could have simply destroyed the whole Amani Tribe with her flying ship that shooted arcane blasts en masse?
    No not even close, the Amani usually have decent spellcraft and loa at their side. Jaina is not an instant win button, to use Lordaeron as an example, when they reached the courtyard jaina wanted to bail, because she didn't think it was possible to win there.

    Aegwynn i honestly dont feel up to discuss about her, since she has been changed several times. But she became advisor of Jaina and one of her masters... she did think she was above everybody and had no need to pass her power to another mage,
    She didn't pass on much power to Jaina that pretty much all went to her son

    Illidan is no mage.
    He is still a mage and blew up an entire planet with his spellwork

    Elisande is actually a good point, she was a very strong and experienced mage, but her powers seems to require rituals to be fully enhanced... when she is caught of guard she seems to be a normal (perhaps quite adept) spellcaster.
    So does jaina as can be seen quite well here, she is barely able to protect just herself and not the entire ship, something Thalyssra can do for example.

    https://youtu.be/SlfdlovB-Ms?t=70
    Last edited by Combatbutler; 2020-06-29 at 07:36 PM.

  18. #318
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    He is still a mage and blew up an entire planet with his spellwork
    That is overselling Illidan's power somewhat. He took advantage of the instabilities inherent in portal magic, in conjunction with the Sargerite Keystone (itself a very powerful relic), to force uncontrolled portals to destroy Nathreza. The same way Ner'zhul's irresponsible use of another powerful relic, the Scepter of Sargeras, similarly destroyed Draenor in conjunction with a magical ritual.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  19. #319
    Quote Originally Posted by Mardux View Post
    The alliance was far from stopping it. We could have started evacuating as soon as we saw the horde coming to occupy the tree. We could have also not expected zero retaliation for the events in arathi.
    I remember Arathi. I do not remember anyone on the Alliance side doing something wrong that would require retaliation though. I do remember Sylvanas going murderhobo on her own people for the crime of not giving in to despair and hopelessness, but that just comes with the territory of being a psychopath.

  20. #320
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    That is overselling Illidan's power somewhat. He took advantage of the instabilities inherent in portal magic, in conjunction with the Sargerite Keystone (itself a very powerful relic), to force uncontrolled portals to destroy Nathreza. The same way Ner'zhul's irresponsible use of another powerful relic, the Scepter of Sargeras, similarly destroyed Draenor in conjunction with a magical ritual.
    Jaina with the focussing Iris, an artifact which can be used to destroy the entire planet if you know how, managed a tidal wave, so I don't see the problem.
    Last edited by Combatbutler; 2020-06-29 at 07:47 PM.

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