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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    You're sure assuming a lot about the playerbase. honestly think a very limited amount of people actually do mythic raids and/or dungeons.
    To make things clear, I will never ever assume that I know anything about the WHOLE WOW PLAYERBASE, because all I interact with are ACTIVE PLAYERS. I don't know or care about the huge amount of casual gamers that do what aver they can to avoid the main-game at all cost.

    Blizzard knows them and they keep them busy with things like petbatles or whatever people do in 15mins of game time per week. Its good to have them, because it keeps the game going but its even better that those players are segregated from the active players and there is no interaction anymore.

    If you enjoy raiding, challenge modes, high end pvp or mythic+ you compete against many thousands of players worldwide. WoW is just so big, that it still means you are in the top x% because there are so many players that actually dont play the main game.

    No raider/pvp/m+ player is a special snowflake just because compared to the WHOLE PLAYERBASE they are a minority, its the other way around, people play a MMO that allows them to skipp the "MMO-part".
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  2. #182
    The purpose of all PVE is to gather gear so you can crush players in PVP.

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    So you want to kill the game? Only about 10% of all players are what you would call "good", if you deny the other 90% their progress they will not get better but quit. Making the game harder will not make the majority of players improve, early Cata tryed that and failed abysmally.

    https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...39865858396162
    The difficulty fetishists are incredible in their blindness to obvious logic. I mean, what the hell?!
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
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  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    You're not guaranteed to get loot off any of the bosses, unless you're paying for a carrying. Doing a 15 you WILL get loot from the end of dungeon chest. There's that.
    If you time the key you get 3 pieces of loot. If it's depleted, you get two. So it's not guaranteed you'll get loot.

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    5. I'm not judging you, but people who raid primarily for gear are not people I want in my raid. If those people have transitioned exclusively to m+ then they never really wanted to raid in the first place, did they?
    Which is why hopefully raiding will die soon.

    Unfortunately raiding still provides huge gear advantages in terms of a whole extra Azerite lockout per week and 10 free ilvls of gear(485 vs 475) that you cant get in M+.

    Get rid of the gear handicap for raiding and we'll see how many people actually want to do that.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    If you time the key you get 3 pieces of loot. If it's depleted, you get two. So it's not guaranteed you'll get loot.
    A timed 15 gives 5 items, depleted 4.

  7. #187
    The Lightbringer Sanguinerd's Avatar
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    Raiding has been meaningless since Cataclysm.
    Subarashii chin chin mono
    Kintama no kami aru

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by The Butt Witch View Post
    The purpose of all PVE is to gather gear so you can crush players in PVP.
    TRUE

    Also, risk/effort versus reward is out of whack, you can spamm mythic+ for hours a day with a pug, and end up with a set of gear thats on par with whatever mythic raiders roll with, titanforging and corruptions ensure that nobody has to step foot in a raid.

    But if you choose to raid, you have to deal with organizing raids or joining a raid guild, unflexible raiding hours usually 2-3 days a week for x hours.
    You have to deal with progression before you reach the bosses that drop the loot you could use, but by the time you reach the boss, you've gotten better from your weekly m+ cache.

    There needs to be something other than challenge, as a reward for raiders. And i'm pretty excited to see where shadowlands goes with ilvl and set bonus's following the death of titanforging. Because i do want m+ to be relevant, just not a complete substition for raiding. Ideally you should get 70% of your bis from raiding, 15% from m+ and maybe 15% from pvp.

    Give people some chase items to aim and work for, that doesnt include a slotmachine with 0 difficulty that offers titanforging.

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    I'll throw in a quick hit list

    1. How does M+ existing diminish raiding? If you want to push high keys you're going to need trinkets from raids and if you want to raid at your best you at least need the 15 chest for gear.

    2. Wrath's popularity is a conflux of Arthas, WoW reaching a natural peak, a lack of market competition (in the sense of mobs) and being relatively casual friendly. Raiding essentially had nothing to do with it, it's been shown like 5000 times raiding before LFR had vanishingly small participation.

    3. How is getting 20 men for mythic a problem when in wrath (and explicitly in wrath) 25 man was the 'real' raid?

    4. Who gives a shit about lfr if you have a guild?

    5. I'm not judging you, but people who raid primarily for gear are not people I want in my raid. If those people have transitioned exclusively to m+ then they never really wanted to raid in the first place, did they?
    1, as a raider, more options for those that want other activities and those that want endgame progression without raiding the better.

    2, If you really look at the numbers WotLK barely grew WoW. Wrath added about 1M total players from the 11M at the of TBC.

    3, These days with the extra competition for players time, and the option to raid easier options present, I can see it being a bigger issue today that is was 12 years ago.

    4, Fragile, insecure people who base their life's value by what they accomplish in video games. When they see others do something similar but easier they easily feel invalidated. Instead of doing the rational and mature thing of ignoring them we see them post here daily.

    5, Here, here. Been there done that. It's an awful mentality to have and an awful group to be a part of. Glad I found a group of like minded people that just want to have fun and not worry about the progression and loots. Yes we all better gear, but having fun a couple nights a week is more important to us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanguinerd View Post
    Raiding has been meaningless since Cataclysm.
    Everything is meaningless in the grand scheme of things. You make of it what you will. Raiding has been more meaningful since Cata since I got away from the progression race BS attitudes and mini dictators acting as raid/guild leaders.

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    A timed 15 gives 5 items, depleted 4.
    That's definitely not how it works. See here, most specifically:

    When the Dungeon is complete, you will receive a chest containing loot at the end of the dungeon and the Mythic Keystone will be updated:

    • Beating the timer rewards the party with a new, higher-level Keystone of a different dungeon, and a Challenger's Cache that contains Artifact Power and 3 pieces of loot at an appropriate ilvl.
    • If you miss the timer but complete the dungeon, you will still get the Challenger's Cache upon killing the final boss of the dungeon containing Artifact Power and 2 pieces of loot. The Mythic Keystone will point to a different dungeon that is one level lower than the one you just used.
    • If you do not complete the dungeon, you will have a Keystone that is one level lower for the same dungeon and receive no loot.
    • For every Keystone level above level 15 (Patch 8.3), there is an additive 40% chance for an additional piece of loot in the chest.

  11. #191
    I am Murloc! dacoolist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HolyCowBro View Post
    Normal dungeons > Heroic dungeons > Mythic dungeons > Mythic+

    LFR raid > Normal raid > Heroic raid > Mythic raid

    You could literally not step foot into a raid and play Mythic+ as your main way of gearing, never seeing any content in raid beyond LFR just to experience the story, and you can hit item level 475.

    Want to experience harder content? time commitment. Grinding dailies. RNG gear drops. find a guild. find 20 other people for mythic. Do visions. Do world bosses. Farm for gold to afford to raid. ect.

    There is a reason that WOTLK had the biggest player base ever in Warcraft history, the game was easy. There was meaningful progression, when you were done gearing in dungeons for that patches current gear, you would look to find a 10 man or 25 man normal raiding guild. The content wasn't that hard, people had fun being able to clear the content, or learn the content together with their guild. I remember Naxx being easily puggable, Ulduar also wasn't half bad.

    The point I am trying to make is that there's simply to many ways to get gear. Raids used to have this feeling of curiosity and people wanted to explore them. Instead of making it widely available via LFR, you had no other choice but to either commit to a guild to see the content, or you didn't get any better gear. It was that simple.

    I'd rather see a system like this again then the current. I came back after a 5 year hiatus, found a guild to do Mythic+ and start raiding, and cleared LFR Nyalotha to see the content because I'm so many months behind on my cape. SO many trolls in LFR now, just ridiculous that this game mode is even still in development.

    What are your thoughts on how raiding/gearing is laid out?
    I'm literally the worst wow player of all time, that's exactly what I do, I just run one single 15 a week, log out - POOF next week BIS 475 WITH Corruption DANG DOE RIPINPEACE BLIZZ ;D (no really tho that's all I wear is some 475's from my mythic weekly cache... you think I have friends that can carry my weakass through mythicc raids?! I just afk through my 15's every week and reap the rewards)

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by dacoolist View Post
    I'm literally the worst wow player of all time, that's exactly what I do, I just run one single 15 a week, log out - POOF next week BIS 475 WITH Corruption DANG DOE RIPINPEACE BLIZZ ;D (no really tho that's all I wear is some 475's from my mythic weekly cache... you think I have friends that can carry my weakass through mythicc raids?! I just afk through my 15's every week and reap the rewards)
    Perhaps that's your MO currently but you do have over 50 Heroic/Mythic Ny'alotha kills and 90 M+s completed above level 10. :^)

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    Perhaps that's your MO currently but you do have over 50 Heroic/Mythic Ny'alotha kills and 90 M+s completed above level 10. :^)
    I mean TBF 10-15's are kind of a joke rn with corruption resistance being as high as it is, you can have 2-3 carry 2 dead weights in a 15 and possibly even time depending on the week. I do it all the time in carry runs and have taken fresh toons and timed 15's.
    Every thread is like entering an LFR with 5 stacks of determination. -Compstance

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    A timed 15 gives 5 items, depleted 4.
    I wish it did.

  15. #195
    Raiding is meaningless. It is in dungeons we are truly tested.
    Horde bad, smash monkey. Who is a good monkey? You are!
    Life is meaningless. It is in death we are truly tested.

    Let loot be loot.

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by crakerjack View Post
    Gunna disregard your wild percentages. You or I have absolutely no clue what percent of the playerbase is skilled and which isn't. All I know is that the game is more fun when you play with better players. Playing with people who are a burden only makes the experience worse for everyone involved, except the person who is the burden. I honestly think cata dungeons were fine. They weren't challenging at all at release, just super punishing. None of the boss mechanics for any of the cata heroics were difficult once you saw them a couple times. You recognize the bosses attack patterns, utilize DBM and do the mechanics, simple. But if you didn't do the mechanic right, you were hit for a gazillion damage and died almost instantly. That's not hard, it's punishing.

    I think the game should become harder, but in a progressive way. Start small and slowly inch your way until the game is at a point where the average player is better than they were a year ago. Outside of m+, raiding, and PvP, the game doesn't require the player to play optimally or efficiently. You can play like a total dunce and still get to where you're going. That scenario should never occur. If you're not playing your class right, you should die. If someone wants to quit WoW because they're unwilling to adapt and learn how to properly play, then good riddance. They're either a solo player or they play with people who don't mind dragging their dead weight through content.

    There are countless easy to follow guides out there for every spec. There are simple guides and complex guides. It doesn't require hard work either. If you're going to play the game, you might as well practice playing it right. It's like learning to play a guitar but you only want to play one string because it's easier than using all 6 strings. Then when that person wants to join a jam session or some band, the people around them are looking at each other trying to decipher the situation.
    the problem with early cata dungeons wasnt that they were to hard,it was that they upped the difficulty HUGELY by comparison to wrath,also they added 1 shot mecanics to bosses and guaranteed wipes if failing to deal with some mecanics,a better way to handle it would have been to have heroic not queable,have it be like mythic now

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Raiding is meaningless. It is in dungeons we are truly tested.
    dont think anyone really contests this,simply on the fact that it scales it means its harder than a raid,also being only 5 people where if your healer makes a mistake,there is no1 else to pick up the slack,same with dps,on high keys a dead dps is a failed key,on raids even mythic often times even with a few dead dps you can still kill a boss if its not some uber dps check one

    i wish they would bring back some form of hard mode for raids also,it would still not compare with dungeons almost infinite scaling but atleast it would offer somewhat of an extra challenge once the raid starts getting to easy

  17. #197
    Normal and Heroic ought to be combined... afterall, there's no "LFR" difficulty for dungeons, LFG does Normal and Heroic.

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by Daedius View Post
    Normal and Heroic ought to be combined... afterall, there's no "LFR" difficulty for dungeons, LFG does Normal and Heroic.
    I agree, but I also want to see raid rewards improve or M+ rewards throttled.
    M+ loot increases by increments of 5. It’s a much smoother progression curve, for someone starting out at M0 and working their way up.
    Raids however, jump by +15 ilvls. Whilst the difficulty from Normal to Heroic is minimal, Heroic to Mythic is massive. As such, players hit a wall and turn to M+ for their upgrades after getting AOTC.

    In PVP, there is a single weekly chest earned via Conquest, yet for PVE, the weekly chest is only from M+. If the weekly chest were changed to reward your highest content of the week +10 ilvls (right now it’s M+ +10 ilvls), it would five raids a bit more longevity and purpose.

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaykay View Post
    But if you choose to raid, you have to deal with organizing raids or joining a raid guild, unflexible raiding hours usually 2-3 days a week for x hours.
    You have to deal with progression before you reach the bosses that drop the loot you could use, but by the time you reach the boss, you've gotten better from your weekly m+ cache.
    This has nothing to do with gear for challenge, because raiding was for the most part of WoW the easiest possible way to gear a character.

    Blizzard decided that it is no longer needed to nerf a raid tier while its relevant (or at all) since LEGION and that makes basicly every other gearing path an alternative, if you are just a casual raider and not really successfull with progression raiding.

    In the past you could just farm the entry bosses, wait for raid wide OVERNERFS and easy gear the full group, alts and guild socials with a casual raiding guild. That was changed because the "raiders" demanded more prestige. They got now more "prestige" but how that is really worth is seen on this m+/pvp envy discussions.

    The truth is that the majority of the active players will ALLWAYS choose the least amount of resistance for gearprogression. Raiding is simply not that anymore and for the why - just ask the never happy raid community from WoD why they wanted prestige raiding in the first place. Complaing after they got what they wanted is a bit silly.

    I raided since vanilla, every tier, it was stupid easy to keep up with high end gearing for many years. Tried LEGION with progression raiding and mythic+ and it made not much sense and the only string that keept me at least to participating in raiding was the tier sets. Thats dead in BfA and thats the reason why the raid community imploded. Casual raiding is not worth it when you can just get more out of mythic+ with the same amount of difficulty and time investment. With raider.io and its community acceptance building PUGs with a high success rate is the easiest thing in the world.
    Last edited by Ange; Today at 10:38 AM.
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