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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Dakara View Post
    I agree, but I also want to see raid rewards improve or M+ rewards throttled.
    M+ loot increases by increments of 5. It’s a much smoother progression curve, for someone starting out at M0 and working their way up.
    Raids however, jump by +15 ilvls. Whilst the difficulty from Normal to Heroic is minimal, Heroic to Mythic is massive. As such, players hit a wall and turn to M+ for their upgrades after getting AOTC.

    In PVP, there is a single weekly chest earned via Conquest, yet for PVE, the weekly chest is only from M+. If the weekly chest were changed to reward your highest content of the week +10 ilvls (right now it’s M+ +10 ilvls), it would five raids a bit more longevity and purpose.
    good news. in shadowlands loot will end up being more rare. only 1 weekly box for everyone. reduced loot in raids and m+. just lego mats from torghast (and cosmetics) you can grind pvp for currency to buy gear i guess. thats pretty much it except world quests and crafted gear.

    have fun.

  2. #202
    Dreadlord Depakote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urza1234 View Post
    Which is why hopefully raiding will die soon.

    Unfortunately raiding still provides huge gear advantages in terms of a whole extra Azerite lockout per week and 10 free ilvls of gear(485 vs 475) that you cant get in M+.

    Get rid of the gear handicap for raiding and we'll see how many people actually want to do that.
    Better idea, get rid of Mythic+. It serves no real purpose anyway and does real damage to the raiding community.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    Better idea, get rid of Mythic+. It serves no real purpose anyway and does real damage to the raiding community.
    That has got to be the most uninformed opinion I've read in a while.

    Either that or just outright disingenuous.

  4. #204
    You don't raid for the gear, you gear for the raid. Raiding is it's own reward.

  5. #205
    Orcboi NatePsy's Avatar
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    Problem is if you remove multiple forms of progression via raid, it becomes harder to justify dumping resources and dev time into designing raids given how niche Mythic raiding is. Only a small percentage of the playerbase clears Mythic raid and if you remove a lot of the avenues of progression in raiding you basically cut out and alienate sizable portion of the playerbase which means they'll be designing content for a small minority which to the shareholders is money not effectively spent.

    At the end of the day they're a business and if they alienate a large portion of playerbase that no longer see's much reason to play due to time constraints and just general lack of interest in harder content, that translates to less player engagement which reflects badly on the company which leaves investors and shareholders starting to ask questions.

    The game is not designed to cater to the minority that wants and participates in that bleeding edge progression and it won't anytime soon because it's not a good return on investment. The buck stops at the majority population, which isn't your typical Mythic raider.

  6. #206
    Dreadlord Depakote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackrunner01 View Post
    That has got to be the most uninformed opinion I've read in a while.

    Either that or just outright disingenuous.
    How is it disingenuous or misinformed?

  7. #207
    I only play to see the content in raiding terms, when I do LFR kill the last boss in a raid I loose all interest in spending my time to commit to raiding it..

    In TBC all I wanted to do was kill Illidan so I commited the time to do it, LFR kills the game for me completely I just loose interest and yes I could just not do it but then what guild would recruit you if you dont even get the easy gear from LFR.

    YES it makes things easier for progression etc but then when I buy a single player game I always put it on hard so I see all the content in a challening way if you just want to breeze through all the video games in your life see all the content without challenge why not just watch youtube runs I just cant understand the need to have like 4 difficulties have a normal which is challenging and potentially puggable and very puggable towards the end of the patch who just want to experience the bosses and then a hard mode which truely challenges what more do you need.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by ThePainTrain69 View Post
    I agree. I don't like doing (essentially) the same content four times over. I care about the looks and feel of the dungeon tho, it does get much harder mechanically in heroic and mythic (no duh).
    no one does all 4 difficulties,the averege is 2,early on some mythic guilds maybe do normal,but not most,once mythic is on farm,many dont even bother with hc,personaly i just pugged hc if i needed something as guild stoped doing it

    the only real bad thing about 4 difficulties is the scaling,every tier we go up imense in power because every version is 15 ilvls extra,personaly i wish they would just get combine hc and normal

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by dazie View Post
    I only play to see the content in raiding terms, when I do LFR kill the last boss in a raid I loose all interest in spending my time to commit to raiding it..

    In TBC all I wanted to do was kill Illidan so I commited the time to do it, LFR kills the game for me completely I just loose interest and yes I could just not do it but then what guild would recruit you if you dont even get the easy gear from LFR.

    YES it makes things easier for progression etc but then when I buy a single player game I always put it on hard so I see all the content in a challening way if you just want to breeze through all the video games in your life see all the content without challenge why not just watch youtube runs I just cant understand the need to have like 4 difficulties have a normal which is challenging and potentially puggable and very puggable towards the end of the patch who just want to experience the bosses and then a hard mode which truely challenges what more do you need.
    no1 is gearing up in lfr,its a waste of time lol,also why do lfr to see the bosses?just watch a youtube video,you do mythic because its the default challenge mode of the raid,its not even the same mecanicaly in many cases as lfr normal and hc

  9. #209
    I probably have the unpopular opinion that there isn't enough avenues of progression in the game, and Blizz has actually taken away some of those over time. Let me explain...

    While the OP seems to be focused on gear and raids, one is a motivation and the other is a vehicle for that motivation. However, to simplify things, let's boil this down to simple motivations, such that the goal of everyone is to have fun and enjoy the game. Everyone's source of enjoyment is different, and it can come down to clearing the game's most difficult content, having BiS gear, RPing, maxing out your achievements, soloing content that's not meant to be solo'd, speed clearing content, etc. Alright, so everyone has a different motivation, so what about the vehicles?

    This where I feel Blizz has gone off the rails a bit with their vehicles, due various things such as the "everyone is a winner" mentality and other game design decisions. To cut to the chase, since the social aspects of WoW have been devolved to the point of the game being almost completely a single player adventure, it's fairly obvious that content like raids has a much smaller audience. Biggest response to trying to recruit for mythic raid is "Why would I want to mythic raid? I can just pug M+ and accomplish the same thing without time commitments." Now this isn't me saying that M+ is bad in itself, however Blizz has made M+ not a complimentary or alternate end-game path to raiding, they've made it replace raiding for most people. And this all comes down to goals and motivations of what people want out of the game.

    One place where M+ has created a new end game goal for people is people competing for high key completion and R.io score competitions/goals. That aspect is pretty nice, however the gearing aspect of the system probably isn't in a good spot yet. One of the driving factors for raiding is the prestige factor, and gear (whether visually or power-wise) has historically been the biggest draw for many people. Not the only one, however, as there are people who like taking on support roles that come with clearing raids, such as forming/managing guilds, farming mats for the raid, etc. To boil this down to a simple statement to avoid myself typing a long post, the juice isn't worth the squeeze when it comes to raiding, and it's mostly due to how the rewards and benefits of alternate paths are structured and balanced, diminishing all the prestige and gear efforts that come from raiding.

    To Blizz's credit, they are trying to rectify some of this, albeit slowly (can't blame them though, there will be growing pains as it's a reverse of years of WoW's philosophy. One example is the proposed M+ system for Shadowlands. Gone is the scaling loot from the end of runs, and there's a real obvious reason for this: it completely negates raiding for the vast majority of people, in terms of what they want out of the game. Even without the scaling loot, you'll still have people running to try to get that weekly chest, or compete for R.IO scores, or the achievement mounts, or various other player-imposed metrics to gauge themselves. Heck, some people run M+ just for the fun of min/maxing routes and setting a meta! You'll still get loot over time in a M+, but raiding will return to the main source of powerful loot in the game, as it probably should due to the increased difficulty of organizing and runing a raid and raiding guilds. This is all actually a good thing for the health of the game, although I guarantee some people (even some of my own guildies) will hate it.

    I did mention Blizz took away one of my favorite goals in WoW, and that was many of the Server First achievements. My jam used to be min/maxing my leveling process, whether it was my actual character level or profession leveling. The first time they entered the game I didn't know they were in, but seeing that pop up I thought to myself, "Huh... bet I could do it better!" So every expansion after that, I got player/class Server Firsts on my realm, including a few profession ones at the same time. There was actually a community of people on my server that would compete for those, and we'd even organize or practice on the beta for when expansions went live. For MoP, I actually organized a 5man group to all get Server First for player max level, since everyone who dings max level w/i a minute of the first person gets the achievement, and while it was a dramatic experience for a few of the group members (I was laughing my butt off the entire time at how funny it was), we managed to accomplish 5 Server First achievements for our group. With the removal of almost all the Server First achievements, that community and I lost one of our favorite things to do in WoW, and sadly I'm probably the last player in that community of ours that still plays retail as that sort of activity (among others) was removed from the game, despite being a driving motivator for some players to actually play WoW.

    What WoW needs more than anything is more paths of progression that don't all have the same goal objective, while forcing the community to actually need to be social. Even my bids for Server First tended to be a group effort, and forced me to know my server community and competition. Right now, the vast majority of the game allows people to not only avoid being social, but still 'win' at most things in the game. That's not what an MMORPG is supposed to be, and people inadvertently feel these negative effects and likely don't understand why they don't get a sense of fulfillment or accomplishment in WoW anymore.
    “Society is endangered not by the great profligacy of a few, but by the laxity of morals amongst all.”
    “It's not an endlessly expanding list of rights — the 'right' to education, the 'right' to health care, the 'right' to food and housing. That's not freedom, that's dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations of slavery — hay and a barn for human cattle.”
    ― Alexis de Tocqueville

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by dcc626 View Post
    good news. in shadowlands loot will end up being more rare. only 1 weekly box for everyone. reduced loot in raids and m+. just lego mats from torghast (and cosmetics) you can grind pvp for currency to buy gear i guess. thats pretty much it except world quests and crafted gear.

    have fun.
    I get the impression you see this as a bad thing. Personally, I look forward to it. Hopefully raids will actually see some longevity beyond Mythic as loot becomes more scarce and isn't thrown at us like it's Diablo 3.

    However, to my knowledge, raid loot isn't reducing, only M+ to bring it more inline with raids.

  11. #211
    So don't do it. Simple solution.

    Let's not go back to raid overloads just because that's how it's been.

  12. #212
    raiding is meaningless

  13. #213
    Best advice is to just do what you enjoy doing.

    To answer the question though, raiding feels meaningless because the reward system is messed up. M+ gifts 475 loot. You can achieve BiS gear outside of the raid for arguably much less pain and effort.

    This, coupled with the fact that Mythic raids are literally 10x harder than heroic raids. Average guilds and early mythic boss guilds killed N'Zoth by week two of the patch, while proging now for over five months.

    Paired with how easy it is to do a single 30m +15 dungeon... like, unless you REALLY enjoy raiding (like I do) it kinda is a waste.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    How is it disingenuous or misinformed?
    He doesn't like it.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    WoW is like 99% bear ass collection simulator -- D-Rock

  15. #215
    Cut lfr or normal.

  16. #216
    Remember "raid or die"? Well... now we're here.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by HolyCowBro View Post
    Normal dungeons > Heroic dungeons > Mythic dungeons > Mythic+

    LFR raid > Normal raid > Heroic raid > Mythic raid

    You could literally not step foot into a raid and play Mythic+ as your main way of gearing, never seeing any content in raid beyond LFR just to experience the story, and you can hit item level 475.

    Want to experience harder content? time commitment. Grinding dailies. RNG gear drops. find a guild. find 20 other people for mythic. Do visions. Do world bosses. Farm for gold to afford to raid. ect.

    There is a reason that WOTLK had the biggest player base ever in Warcraft history, the game was easy. There was meaningful progression, when you were done gearing in dungeons for that patches current gear, you would look to find a 10 man or 25 man normal raiding guild. The content wasn't that hard, people had fun being able to clear the content, or learn the content together with their guild. I remember Naxx being easily puggable, Ulduar also wasn't half bad.

    The point I am trying to make is that there's simply to many ways to get gear. Raids used to have this feeling of curiosity and people wanted to explore them. Instead of making it widely available via LFR, you had no other choice but to either commit to a guild to see the content, or you didn't get any better gear. It was that simple.

    I'd rather see a system like this again then the current. I came back after a 5 year hiatus, found a guild to do Mythic+ and start raiding, and cleared LFR Nyalotha to see the content because I'm so many months behind on my cape. SO many trolls in LFR now, just ridiculous that this game mode is even still in development.

    What are your thoughts on how raiding/gearing is laid out?
    While i agree it is too much... what do you want to get rid off?

    If i have learned anything this last few weeks is that aparrantly many poeple play this game as a single player... and demand to be catered to for whatever reason in an MMO.
    So LFR can't be kicked out. Normal.... that is truely useless.

    So i would say kikc LFR make normal into LFR and so on. So you only have 3 difficulties.
    LFR will be VERY hard but that is ok. You don't want to put ANY kind of time into it you don't deserve to clear the raid... which was supposed to be the hardest PvE activity.
    Dungeons are fine i think. Norm, Hero and Mythic0 are basically dead and not used 1 month into the addon other than for leveling or weekly quests.

    But you cannot disable LFR anymore. Poeple got it used it and got used to it. That would have a bigger backlash than if they would remove flying permanently.

    Also: "there is a reason wotlk had XYZ" yes there is. But that is just one of MANY reasons. One of the is warcraft was newish and exiting. On the rise. Good looking and whatnot. It is not just that it was harder to do stuff in singleplayer.

  18. #218
    I'm pretty sure the point of them having multiple progression levels is to minimize the emphasis on raids. Like I think their ideal situation would be that whatever the style you like to play there's some form of endgame progression for you. Solo/small group, group, large group, PVP, etc. there's a "path" you go towards.

    To me that's a good thing. Allow overlap but have it so each major type of player has a "bucket" they go into so they can do meaningful content that they enjoy, rather than feel that they MUST do X or Y or Z in order to progress.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    the only real bad thing about 4 difficulties is the scaling,every tier we go up imense in power because every version is 15 ilvls extra,personaly
    What does that have to do with 4 difficulties? The ilvl would go up 15 even if there was just 1 difficulty.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    WoW is like 99% bear ass collection simulator -- D-Rock

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    What does that have to do with 4 difficulties? The ilvl would go up 15 even if there was just 1 difficulty.
    yeah but it would be 15 less until the next tier...in an expansion with 4 tiers,those ilvls add up imensely

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