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  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    Better idea, get rid of Mythic+. It serves no real purpose anyway and does real damage to the raiding community.
    Well it clearly serves a purpose, it gives an alternative/supplement to raiding. How does it damage the raiding community? And why should it take precedence?

    Does anyone have numbers on how many do mythic+ and how many do mythic raiding? I am willing to bet the former is a larger segment of the population than the latter.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gelannerai View Post


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  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by tehealadin View Post
    Well it clearly serves a purpose, it gives an alternative/supplement to raiding. How does it damage the raiding community? And why should it take precedence?

    Does anyone have numbers on how many do mythic+ and how many do mythic raiding? I am willing to bet the former is a larger segment of the population than the latter.
    (Anecdotal evidence incoming) I have been in progression raiding guilds that lost players because they wanted to focus on m+. Honestly, I couldn’t blame them. Equal gear for much less effort and the ability to play on a very flexible schedule. The only appeal to raiding for them was raid sets and mounts, which can easily be purchased later by all the gold they can make from selling m+ runs.
    That stated, I really believe they need to have pieces “turn off,” or be devalued under certain conditions. For example: raid gear maintains 400 ilvl in raids and world content but drops down 100 ilvls for m+ and PvP instance content. PvP gear has 400 ilvl in instance PvP and world content but drops 100 ilvl in raids and m+. M+ has 400 ilvl but drops 100 ilvls in raids and PvP. I can see the complaints from people who want to do all content, but I also see the benefit outweighing the bad as players who enjoy only 1 aspect don’t need to do all of them.

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by Greyvax View Post
    People wanted options.

    Back in WoD, the phrase was "raid or die".

    Now you can get upgrades by doing dungeons, raids, or even PvP.
    It's not a bad thing getting items from every source of what you play, but there should be more straight procedure. You do dungeons in order to compete in raids, not doing dungeons in order to dodge raiding like it is now. It is just my opinion, but you can use one to block out everything else, even with pvp you can get ready for raiding and that should not be the case.

  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbselle View Post
    You do dungeons in order to compete in raids, not doing dungeons in order to dodge raiding like it is now.
    You are aware that, without those dungeons, they would still "dodge" raiding by not playing the game at all, right?

    For ages dungeons were just a stepping stone to raiding, which was the only PvE endgame. Nowadays we finally have World Content, Raids, Battlegrounds,Dungeons and whatever solo stuff Blizzard cooks up (Horrific Visions, Torghast, etc). Viable paths that reward according to their difficulty.

  5. #225
    M+ is easily the highest participation endgame content in WoW. They stumbled into it almost by accident and it is now their golden goat. It even draws attention to the game because it allows streamers to keep pushing something long after the raid has been cleared.

    Reducing the end of dungeon box to 1 plus the new weekly box formula should really fix everything. Makes heroic raiding worth doing again longer term and slows down gear acquisition while also minimizing RNG.

  6. #226
    Stealthed Defender unbound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HolyCowBro View Post
    What are your thoughts on how raiding/gearing is laid out?
    I'm not a fan of how it works today. There are very few raids, and little sense of progression.

    I did very little raiding in Vanilla, ran a raid guild in BC, dabbled in raiding in Wrath, then raided with some guilds in MoP, WoD, Legion, and BfA (didn't like Cata long enough to get to raiding).

    While gear was an element in early WoW, most of raiding was simply the challenge. Because of how classes worked, if I switched to a different toon but the same category (e.g. Ele Shaman to Surv Hunter), it was a slightly different experience even in the same raid. And once you completed one raid, you looked forward to the next one that was already available.

    The key was that it wasn't just about the most current raid back then. In BC, you started with Karazhan even if you didn't start playing BC until 4 months in. Now, the only people that play the early raids of BfA are those that want to do it for the lawls or xmog gear.

    And that is what I mean by little sense of progression. Gear should only be a component, not the sole reason for playing a game. There should be a sense of challenge that pervades the entire experience...not just for a few hours of a new raid, followed by mindless repetition set to a slider scale that sometimes add another pointless mechanic to dodge. There was far, *far* more content back then.

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    (Anecdotal evidence incoming) I have been in progression raiding guilds that lost players because they wanted to focus on m+.
    And I've seen raiding guilds suffer because some wanted to just raid. They fell behind because they weren't gearing in M+, and this caused the more progressed players to leave.

    If raid progression is tuned around gear from M+. M+ is no longer optional for raiding.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyris Flare View Post
    M+ is easily the highest participation endgame content in WoW.
    That's because it gives M raid level gear for content that is much easier than M raids.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    WoW is like 99% bear ass collection simulator -- D-Rock

  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post

    That's because it gives M raid level gear for content that is much easier than M raids.
    That helps a lot at the start of the season but not as much as it goes on. Participation is still very high because it gives people something easier to pug than raids and allows smaller groups of friends to play whenever they want without waiting for ~15 other people.

    Small content always has higher participation than big content, it's not really surprising. But m+ streams also draw far more YT views and game attention than any other mode the instant the world first race is over

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by A Chozo View Post
    You are aware that, without those dungeons, they would still "dodge" raiding by not playing the game at all, right?

    For ages dungeons were just a stepping stone to raiding, which was the only PvE endgame. Nowadays we finally have World Content, Raids, Battlegrounds,Dungeons and whatever solo stuff Blizzard cooks up (Horrific Visions, Torghast, etc). Viable paths that reward according to their difficulty.
    Who is "they"? You know, the problem is that people here on mmo-champion think they always speak for the majority. Until the switch to mythic and the introduction of lfr, Blizzard had a wonderfully working system, even for casual gamers. Two difficulties, two sizes. You shouldn't be rewarded for doing nothing, it creates wrong conditions and is the complete wrong way to educate your players. And even now casuals are crying around, are not satisfied or having problems, even with the wide range of possibilities.

  10. #230
    Good. Raiding is only fun when doing Mythic raiding, Lfr is the worst crap ever.

    Mythic + is fun for everyone and is the new way of playing pve now.

  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    And I've seen raiding guilds suffer because some wanted to just raid. They fell behind because they weren't gearing in M+, and this caused the more progressed players to leave.

    If raid progression is tuned around gear from M+. M+ is no longer optional for raiding.

    - - - Updated - - -



    That's because it gives M raid level gear for content that is much easier than M raids.
    Yes, I agree, but the rest of my post, that you left out for some reason, addresses the issue with a possible solution. Now, I doubt Blizzard would ever implement that as it keeps participation numbers up in multiple areas of the game; however, it would still be a decent fix to an issue of perceived mandatory content.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbselle View Post
    Who is "they"? You know, the problem is that people here on mmo-champion think they always speak for the majority. Until the switch to mythic and the introduction of lfr, Blizzard had a wonderfully working system, even for casual gamers. Two difficulties, two sizes. You shouldn't be rewarded for doing nothing, it creates wrong conditions and is the complete wrong way to educate your players. And even now casuals are crying around, are not satisfied or having problems, even with the wide range of possibilities.
    Except before the introduction of LFR many of the playerbase never even stepped foot into raid. There was a smaller percentage that made it past the first few bosses. An even smaller percentage that actually cleared. An even smaller percentage that cleared the hardest difficulty.
    Ignoring most of that, focus on the first part where many gamers never even stepped foot into a raid due to the issue of even getting started. LFR was made for them, so they could also experience the raid and story that goes with it.

  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    yeah but it would be 15 less until the next tier...in an expansion with 4 tiers,those ilvls add up imensely
    That is completly wrong. With one less difficulty the highest gear in the entire expansion will be only 15 ilvl less than with 4 difficulties. The last mythic raid would drop 460+ gear not 475+ gear if bfa had 3 difficulties and normal started with 355 ilvl.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by dcc626 View Post
    good news. in shadowlands loot will end up being more rare. only 1 weekly box for everyone. reduced loot in raids and m+. just lego mats from torghast (and cosmetics) you can grind pvp for currency to buy gear i guess. thats pretty much it except world quests and crafted gear.

    have fun.
    im sure people will have fun ... while playing other games.

    making loot harder to get will for sure work wonders in world of gaming of 2021 :0

    what a beautiful disaster in making

  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by tehealadin View Post
    Well it clearly serves a purpose, it gives an alternative/supplement to raiding. How does it damage the raiding community? And why should it take precedence?

    Does anyone have numbers on how many do mythic+ and how many do mythic raiding? I am willing to bet the former is a larger segment of the population than the latter.
    If the purpose is to be supplement or alternative to raiding then it clearly isn't working. It's acting as the replacement for raiding. If you can reliably do 15s you get better gear than heroic raiding. With how easy 15s are, shit tier players are getting the second best gear in the game. Rewards are out of kilter with skill and effort required.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    That's because it gives M raid level gear for content that is much easier than M raids.
    More accessible and far less players involved to end up with a few deadweights screwing it up more like. Easier in ways, yes. But "much easier" is going a bit far I'd say. +15s are the only way to get close to getting Mythic level gear and even then it's still 10 item levels behind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    Yes, I agree, but the rest of my post, that you left out for some reason, addresses the issue with a possible solution. Now, I doubt Blizzard would ever implement that as it keeps participation numbers up in multiple areas of the game; however, it would still be a decent fix to an issue of perceived mandatory content.
    Dropping item levels like that would end up making the player feel awful overall. It gives no way to actually try out other forms of gameplay besides starting from the complete bottom and climbing all the way up, which isn't how it should work.

    A Mythic raider should be able to move into PvP and still hold their weight at decent levels of play with their gear.

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by tehealadin View Post
    Does anyone have numbers on how many do mythic+ and how many do mythic raiding? I am willing to bet the former is a larger segment of the population than the latter.
    They killed off 10man Heroic raiding, despite being more popular than 25man...so not necessarily an argument.

  17. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    +15s are the only way to get close to getting Mythic level gear and even then it's still 10 item levels behind.
    The weekly chest at 15 is M raid level.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    WoW is like 99% bear ass collection simulator -- D-Rock

  18. #238
    Titan Frozenbeef's Avatar
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    Considering how little and stagnant wow endgame currently is, it's probably not wise to get rid of a large portion of it.

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbselle View Post
    Who is "they"? You know, the problem is that people here on mmo-champion think they always speak for the majority. Until the switch to mythic and the introduction of lfr, Blizzard had a wonderfully working system, even for casual gamers. Two difficulties, two sizes. You shouldn't be rewarded for doing nothing, it creates wrong conditions and is the complete wrong way to educate your players. And even now casuals are crying around, are not satisfied or having problems, even with the wide range of possibilities.
    Let's ignore that part about speaking for the majority because you know damn well I'm referring to a real part of the playerbase, independently of it's size.

    Blizzard didn't had a "wonderfully working system". If they had it, they wouldn't have spent all this time creating a infra-structure that supports more endgame routes. People complained all the time that the only thing to do at the endgame was raiding, especially during WoD. Raids of Warcraft was the name of the game.

    People doing Mythic+ aren't "doing nothing", they are doing content and being rewarded according to the difficulty of content. Of course some players may feel threatened because how dare others get cool rewards too but that's only natural - Blizzard shouldn't cater to envious elitists just because they think Bobjoe doesn't deserve a gear upgrade after doing 15 +20 dungeons this week.

  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    More accessible and far less players involved to end up with a few deadweights screwing it up more like. Easier in ways, yes. But "much easier" is going a bit far I'd say. +15s are the only way to get close to getting Mythic level gear and even then it's still 10 item levels behind.



    Dropping item levels like that would end up making the player feel awful overall. It gives no way to actually try out other forms of gameplay besides starting from the complete bottom and climbing all the way up, which isn't how it should work.

    A Mythic raider should be able to move into PvP and still hold their weight at decent levels of play with their gear.
    PvP players would disagree with you. Some PvP players don’t want to have to raid to get BiS trinkets and gear, and many ask for vendors with equal raid gear all the time. Some PvE players also don’t want to have to do PvP content to get their BiS items. Some players that just want to focus m+ don’t want to step into either.
    Again, I’m not saying it’s a perfect fix because you can’t appease everyone; however, the way I put it makes it so people who WANT to do those things have the option to (yes it can be a grind getting multiple sets), instead of players NEEDING to do those things.

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