Raiding feels meaningless currently with to many forms of different progression

[ZazuuPriest]

you may need a refund on that math education,if a difficulty was gone,it would be -15 per tier, bfa had uldir,dazalor,palace and nyalotha,thats -60 ilvls by the end

correct, with titanforging gone the true fix would be to make each difficulty reward only 5 item levels higher than the one below it then at least gear would be relevant for more than 1 tier. Also get rid of LFR it only serves to bloat the item level creep anyway.

[Yayeet]

correct, with titanforging gone the true fix would be to make each difficulty reward only 5 item levels higher than the one below it then at least gear would be relevant for more than 1 tier. Also get rid of LFR it only serves to bloat the item level creep anyway.

Never going to happen, no point speculating it, they already said the increases between normal heroic and mythic will always be a large gap and between tiers there will be another large gap.

[Gaidax]

Clearing the raid by week three is like, what? World 50 or something?.

You don't need to clear whole raid by week 3, you will clear half the Mythic Raid by week 3, which is already plenty of top tier loot.

It is because i've seen it myself.

If you're just doing your weekly M+, you will also get decent Mythic equivalent items sooner or later.
For what investment? Doing a single M+15 per week.

From of mine played some alts by just doing weekly M+ and they were only like ~5 Ilvl behind characters that raid Mythic.

Now compare that how much time you're putting into Mythic raiding.
The time you spent on killing the final boss already trumps what a lot of people are playing in a single month.

No matter what you do - you won't be getting 485 loot from weekly M+. You might even not get a 475 weapon for months and you might keep getting same vendor trash boots or wrists for weeks. That's why it's called a weekly chest of disappointment to begin with.

By the time you even get any sort of decent 475 array of gear, any half decent mythic player will already have full set of that and more.

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The amount of time that goes into Mythic raiding no longer has any relation to its rewards, especially if we include the final boss.

We raid 2 days per week, 3 hours each. That's all we need to clear all Mythic Raids fully for many years now.

Right now it takes us about 2 hours to fully clear M.Nyalotha. We got all our BIS gear for months now and it's true BIS, not some random ass shit from chest.

[Kralljin]

You don't need to clear whole raid by week 3, you will clear half the Mythic Raid by week 3, which is already plenty of top tier loot.

A chunk of that are Azerite pieces which can also be acquired via the Azerite Vendor.

No matter what you do - you won't be getting 485 loot from weekly M+.

And?
Those +10 Ilvl do not justify the time investment, N'zoth still takes a lot of time for a guild to kill them.

Corruption may skew things now, but that most certainly applied for any mythic boss in BfA.

We raid 2 days per week, 3 hours each. That's all we need to clear all Mythic Raids fully for many years now.

That's good for you, most guilds still hover around ~300 wipes for the final boss.

Now do the Math how long it takes for those guilds to kill the final boss.
Not to mention that a lot of power currently relies on having the right corruption, not just Ilvl.

[Gaidax]

*snip*

That's their problem. If you are some shitter in some shitter guild that can't do shit in Mythic raiding - then M+ is the only way to begin with. But the moment you have a guild that either clears or does majority of Mythic raid - gear from there is full stop better than M+ weekly RNG item.

Thus the whole premise of the thread - Mythic raiding is very meaningful, because you can still get best gear only from there whether it's key items or simply highest ilvl outright without real RNG - you get a set loot tables per boss and you will get that item you want no question in the end.

[Theangryone]

Raiding is always meaningless if you don’t raid. Why do you care if people are allowed to play and progress differently?

[Jester Joe]

A chunk of that are Azerite pieces which can also be acquired via the Azerite Vendor.

Which takes how many weeks now to buy a specific piece again? Over a month as far as I can remember.

That's their problem. If you are some shitter in some shitter guild that can't do shit in Mythic raiding - then M+ is the only way to begin with. But the moment you have a guild that either clears or does majority of Mythic raid - gear from there is full stop better than M+ weekly RNG item.

Thus the whole premise of the thread - Mythic raiding is very meaningful, because you can still get best gear only from there whether it's key items or simply highest ilvl outright without real RNG - you get a set loot tables per boss and you will get that item you want no question in the end.

While I agree Mythic raiding is a great source of gear compared to the trickle that M+ gives weekly, I would hardly call a guild that's up to Mythic N'zoth a bad guild. It's still an extremely small percent of the raiding population who's reached that far.

[dcc626]

You don't raid for the gear, you gear for the raid. Raiding is it's own reward.

unfortunately, lots of people only do things because of gear.

[WintersLegion]

Raiding is always meaningless if you don’t raid. Why do you care if people are allowed to play and progress differently?

I've never understood the issue with multiple difficulties games have had multiple difficulties for decades and it's been fine but all of a sudden now it's a problem. Do the difficulties you want to do and ignore the rest. It does not harm anyone when someone else decides to do a different difficulty.

[dcc626]

I'm pretty sure the point of them having multiple progression levels is to minimize the emphasis on raids. Like I think their ideal situation would be that whatever the style you like to play there's some form of endgame progression for you. Solo/small group, group, large group, PVP, etc. there's a "path" you go towards.

To me that's a good thing. Allow overlap but have it so each major type of player has a "bucket" they go into so they can do meaningful content that they enjoy, rather than feel that they MUST do X or Y or Z in order to progress.

the thing is, as long as m+ has no weekly lockouts they will never drop mythic level gear. which is what people who only do m+ want. raiding will always give the highest ilvl loot.

[Gaidax]

While I agree Mythic raiding is a great source of gear compared to the trickle that M+ gives weekly, I would hardly call a guild that's up to Mythic N'zoth a bad guild. It's still an extremely small percent of the raiding population who's reached that far.

That's why I said specifically "can't do shit in Mythic raiding" and previously that even if a guild clears half of Mythic raid - it already gains access to a ton of top tier gear for a fraction of time, effort and complexity.

[rhorle]

That's good for you, most guilds still hover around ~300 wipes for the final boss.

But doesn't that imply that they are not of the required skill level, or gear? And that you remove relation to rewards, or anything else, if you lack the skill for such a thing in the first place?

[Jester Joe]

That's why I said specifically "can't do shit in Mythic raiding" and previously that even if a guild clears half of Mythic raid - it already gains access to a ton of top tier gear for a fraction of time, effort and complexity.

Which is fair,especially since the first few bosses are easy and have a lot of really good gear alone, like Wrathion's trinket is at least decent/solid for a lot of specs and then there's stuff like Skitra with the caster trinket and hunter bow.

But Kralljin was specifically talking about N'zoth and the 385 gear in that post from what I see.

[deenman]

correct, with titanforging gone the true fix would be to make each difficulty reward only 5 item levels higher than the one below it then at least gear would be relevant for more than 1 tier. Also get rid of LFR it only serves to bloat the item level creep anyway.

yeah 5 ilvl sounds fine,also dont think they will ever get rid of lfr,its not even worth doing for gear these days,personaly i feel normal and hc should become one

[tehealadin]

If the purpose is to be supplement or alternative to raiding then it clearly isn't working. It's acting as the replacement for raiding. If you can reliably do 15s you get better gear than heroic raiding. With how easy 15s are, shit tier players are getting the second best gear in the game. Rewards are out of kilter with skill and effort required.

I'd argue that a lot of 15's are harder than HC Nya. Our guild runs it one night a week, mainly to help gear up lower geared players. I'd say maybe 3 bosses can sometimes be tricky, if someone messed up football, Ilgy can sometimes cause a wipe or two with the MC, and sometimes Nzoth, other than that it is fairly straight forward. I find I need to be much more switched on in M+, especially with certain dungeon affix combos, heck some places I will just avoid on certain weeks. We have some guild M+ runs and there are people we will take to HC Nya that we won't take on higher keys (and I am not talking like 20+, for me high is 15-18), not just because of numbers but the competency requirements imo are higher.

Fair enough, this is anecdotal and just my own experience of it, I accept that, others will have a different experience of it.

The argument I seem to be seeing is that HC is/should be considered more prestigious than M+. I suppose we will have to agree to disagree on this one, I think HC Nya is easier than M+, and the rewards reflect that. To be frank, someone with over 2k IO seems more impressive and harder to obtain to me than 12/12 HC. I am not in a top guild, and won't claim to be a top player, 12/12 N, 12/12 HC and 3/12 Mythic, only 2.1k IO (which for me took far longer and much more effort than 12/12 HC), I am by no means a WoW god (clearly), but given how easy I know it is to get 12/12 HC, I am not as impressed with it. Good mythic progress however, now that is a different story. I don't see how the logistics of needing more players and more time on a run should necessarily equate to better gear or more prestige, even if the content is easier (which imo it is). Again, I know we won't agree on that point of m+ and HC raiding, so I won't go into a back and forth with you on it, just stating my opinion on it.

For those who want to take prestige from raiding, there is mythic raiding. I don't think having an alternative to HC that isn't as time/people intensive is a bad thing.

[Kralljin]

If you are some shitter in some shitter guild that can't do shit in Mythic raiding

I think that already reveals the issue with your logic.

The point isn't "being in a shitter guild", the point is that most people can't be arsed to join a guild to begin and simply to stick M+ because Mythic raiding isn't worth abiding by a fixed schedule, transferring to a specific server and dealing with the issues that comes with a fixed group size.

The point is not "does Mythic give the best rewards"? but rather "is Mythic worth the effort?"

But doesn't that imply that they are not of the required skill level, or gear? And that you remove relation to rewards, or anything else, if you lack the skill for such a thing in the first place?

300 wipes on a final boss doesn't make you terrible, that's been a pretty standard number on any Final Boss in BfA.

Which takes how many weeks now to buy a specific piece again? Over a month as far as I can remember.

Does it matter, though?

People are able to get Mythic equivalent rewards without ever stepping into it - the most powerful ones (Barring maybe weapons) no less.

[Jester Joe]

Does it matter, though?

People are able to get Mythic equivalent rewards without ever stepping into it - the most powerful ones (Barring maybe weapons) no less.

When the discussion is the speed at which you can gear up from M+ vs Mythic raiding, yes it does matter. Especially considering that a lot of the azerite from the raid actually has the best traits on it.

[Kralljin]

When the discussion is the speed at which you can gear up from M+ vs Mythic raiding, yes it does matter. Especially considering that a lot of the azerite from the raid actually has the best traits on it.

It highlights a greater problem in WoW: Why put more effort into something now, when i can just wait until things get easier?
The efficient way is seemingly to not play the game (or play it less), but simply wait until the weekly rewards do the job for you.

[Jester Joe]

It highlights a greater problem in WoW: Why put more effort into something now, when i can just wait until things get easier?
The efficient way is seemingly to not play the game (or play it less), but simply wait until the weekly rewards do the job for you.

You mean the system the entire game has always functioned on?

[ZazuuPriest]

Never going to happen, no point speculating it, they already said the increases between normal heroic and mythic will always be a large gap and between tiers there will be another large gap.

its not speculation, i dont think theyre going to do that they just should.

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yeah 5 ilvl sounds fine,also dont think they will ever get rid of lfr,its not even worth doing for gear these days,personaly i feel normal and hc should become one

i think its easier to expect LFR losers to do a Normal Raid than it is Normal casuals to be forced into Heroic Raiding where there are at least some meaningful mechanics.