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  1. #301
    With all the time you wasted on this silly back and forth, I could easily gear alt in a full set of Mythic raiding gear already. Probably even two.

  2. #302
    Quote Originally Posted by HolyCowBro View Post
    There is a reason that WOTLK had the biggest player base ever in Warcraft history, the game was easy.

    Spoken like a child who never played WOTLK and never experienced Heroic Malygos when it was current, Ulduar when it was current, Insanity Runs when it was current, and ICC when it was current. I guess "easy" is a point of view when you wait until WOD to clear Ulduar/ICC for the first time

  3. #303
    Quote Originally Posted by dipzz View Post
    Spoken like a child who never played WOTLK and never experienced Heroic Malygos when it was current, Ulduar when it was current, Insanity Runs when it was current, and ICC when it was current. I guess "easy" is a point of view when you wait until WOD to clear Ulduar/ICC for the first time
    How about easy compared to current relevant content?

  4. #304
    Quote Originally Posted by dipzz View Post
    Spoken like a child who never played WOTLK and never experienced Heroic Malygos when it was current, Ulduar when it was current, Insanity Runs when it was current, and ICC when it was current. I guess "easy" is a point of view when you wait until WOD to clear Ulduar/ICC for the first time
    There wasn't really a heroic Malygos it was only 10 or 25 man, and it was pretty easy honestly it was the only boss that entire first patch that would be even in the same category as a heroic fight these days. Most guilds crushed it pretty easily, OS 3 drake was the only fight that would be equivalent to a mythic fight today that was one fight though. The rest of that tier was actually hilariously easy, I think Method killed it all in 14 hours or something absurd. But I do agree with your overall sentiment the hardmodes on the back half of Ulduar and back half of heroic were very far from trivial from what I remember. 0 lights in particular in particular seemed really daunting, I feel like H Lich King was mainly hard at the start due to limited attempts.

    I will admit though while I did do hardmodes/heroic ICC I never made it to 0 lights/h lich king but I would say those would be comparable to modern end mythic bosses. I think if we cycle through from Classic up through ICC the back half of sunwell kind of marked the real shift to the difficulty levels we see today. Up until then besides kael'thas at the start any decent guild could brute force the content through gearing even while carrying 10+ pretty bad players (especially by modern standards).
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  5. #305
    I think having multiple options to gear up is great. WoW is a massive and should not simply be world of raidcraft like it was in the past, especially when it provides multiple types of content.

    Being able to play whatever part you like from it and being able to also progress your character by doing it is good. Why ruin the game for people that have the time and skill to mainly raid mythic by dumbing it down? Or make the game stale for those that don't? When they can just co-exist.

  6. #306
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    The more gearing/difficulty options as possible that they can handle the better. The real problem is the shade players toss at each other for not being on their level/the stereotypes that go with the tiers dividing player groups.
    If you knew the candle was fire then the meal was cooked a long time ago.

  7. #307
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    . How does M+ existing diminish raiding? If you want to push high keys you're going to need trinkets from raids and if you want to raid at your best you at least need the 15 chest for gear.
    I think this here is the real problem as well as the fact that a guild can't progress from heroic raiding to mythic without dumping up to 20 players. I hate M+ and don't wanna do them but because of the chest, I feel like I have to.

    Raiding with my guild is chill. There's always a spot for me, people I know, it's fun. However lagging behind with gear is not fun cause my guild used to have 3 groups.

    The beginner/alt raid. Anyone could join if there were spots and this group mainly did normal and sometimes hc later in the patch.

    The main raid group. Mostly progressed heroic and cleared it fairly quick every week.

    And finally a mythic group lead by another leader as the GM didn't want to deal with it due to the different format and to avoid drama. You had to be really well geared to get into that group and gear up fast as it would fill up fast. The only way to do that was to also grind M+.

  8. #308
    I agree with you.It is sad to see you can get Mythic raid quality gear out of a Mythic+ Dungeon.Ya 15s are a bit difficult but you can clear them way easier than a Mythic Raid.considering the fact that only a small portion of the player base even gets to do Mythic raids.I for one hate Mythic dungeons.I thought they would be interesting when they first came out but they have turned into all you see in trade chat none stop 24 hours a day is wants to sell Mythic + this and Mythic+ that.Retail makes me sick right now.You don't see trade being trade anymore.No one selling alch,enchanting,you get the point.Trade chat just looks like a bunch a gold farmers have taken over the chat.In a way they have.I think the problem is you can run them over and over again.Its like raids.Stop letting people go back in and reclear.Lockouts need to be a thing again.It will stop this huge inflation of gold we are seeing from the top guilds and bring some normality back to the games economy.

  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigcountry11782 View Post
    I agree with you.It is sad to see you can get Mythic raid quality gear out of a Mythic+ Dungeon.Ya 15s are a bit difficult but you can clear them way easier than a Mythic Raid.considering the fact that only a small portion of the player base even gets to do Mythic raids.I for one hate Mythic dungeons.I thought they would be interesting when they first came out but they have turned into all you see in trade chat none stop 24 hours a day is wants to sell Mythic + this and Mythic+ that.Retail makes me sick right now.You don't see trade being trade anymore.No one selling alch,enchanting,you get the point.Trade chat just looks like a bunch a gold farmers have taken over the chat.In a way they have.I think the problem is you can run them over and over again.Its like raids.Stop letting people go back in and reclear.Lockouts need to be a thing again.It will stop this huge inflation of gold we are seeing from the top guilds and bring some normality back to the games economy.
    The only way that happens definitively is if the wow token suddenly disappeared. Also, the moment you introduce a lockout to M+ is the moment it dies. But I guess at this point they can do whatever with it since it seems to be getting gutted anyway.

  10. #310
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    Quote Originally Posted by tehealadin View Post
    Well it clearly serves a purpose, it gives an alternative/supplement to raiding. How does it damage the raiding community? And why should it take precedence?

    Does anyone have numbers on how many do mythic+ and how many do mythic raiding? I am willing to bet the former is a larger segment of the population than the latter.
    Why does there have to be an alternative gear method for raiding? You either raid or you don't. If you don't you shouldn't be able to get the gear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HolyCowBro View Post
    How about easy compared to current relevant content?
    It was easy to gear up for. The content for the expansions was some of the hardest of that time. To suggest otherwise would make it seem like you didn't play the expansion.

  11. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by Brostin View Post
    The actual reason was Arthas, coupled with the age of the game it's also why the playerbase declined after WOTLK. I cannot believe people are still struggling with this concept.
    WOTLK Introduced burnout with Trial of the Crusader and Icecrown Citadel Raids. 10/25man raids was fine, karazan and zul'aman were very popular so adding 10 man to all raids was a solid move, and the hardmode toggle/breakpoints in Ulduar were amazing.

    THEN the difficulty sliders and itemization started to be more convoluted... 10 man normal, 10 man heroic, 25 man normal, 25 man heroic; each with its own levels of loot; this compiled with the dumbing down of talents with Cataclysm prepatch did not sit well with a lot of people. Locking players into 1 talent tree was a hard transition met with much dismay; in fact it was so loathed that they scrapped it altogether for the current system introduced in MoP, which in all honestly, was quit a solid expansion.

    WOTLK did a lot of things great... BUT.... towards the end the game changed, gearscore became standard because figuring out someone's value for a raid group became more tedious with so many versions of the same item.

  12. #312
    Pit Lord Advent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    Why does there have to be an alternative gear method for raiding? You either raid or you don't. If you don't you shouldn't be able to get the gear.
    He said alternative to raiding, the difference there is it's content you can progress in, parallel to raiding. People don't seem to like feeling like the rewards for the content they're doing is somehow inferior, particularly if it has some form of a challenge attached to it.

  13. #313
    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    Why does there have to be an alternative gear method for raiding? You either raid or you don't. If you don't you shouldn't be able to get the gear.
    Already been answered:
    Quote Originally Posted by Advent View Post
    He said alternative to raiding, the difference there is it's content you can progress in, parallel to raiding. People don't seem to like feeling like the rewards for the content they're doing is somehow inferior, particularly if it has some form of a challenge attached to it.

    I would just add when I said supplement, that is meant in that other opportunities to get gear to help you in raids if you are unlucky on raid night. Also I didn't say that there had to be, only that there is.
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  14. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by tehealadin View Post
    Already been answered:



    I would just add when I said supplement, that is meant in that other opportunities to get gear to help you in raids if you are unlucky on raid night. Also I didn't say that there had to be, only that there is.
    You say that's an answer but it's really not. There's pvp and raiding, pick one or do both. Gearing isn't that hard, it just takes time. Bring back the Justice, Valor and Conquest points (though i think they're already bringing those back, unsure in what form and how they'll work) and let people buy the pieces of gear they want by grinding out points so they don't have to play the loot lottery. It's not that hard, it's just that Ion and the people under him have made it that way.

  15. #315
    Pit Lord Advent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    You say that's an answer but it's really not. There's pvp and raiding, pick one or do both. Gearing isn't that hard, it just takes time. Bring back the Justice, Valor and Conquest points (though i think they're already bringing those back, unsure in what form and how they'll work) and let people buy the pieces of gear they want by grinding out points so they don't have to play the loot lottery. It's not that hard, it's just that Ion and the people under him have made it that way.
    It's not an answer because you say it is? That's not how debate or intelligent discussion works. Mythic+ is a legitimate progression path parallel to raiding, which means that if you liked dungeons before and don't enjoy large group content, you currently have the ability to have some form of progression in dungeons without "falling behind" everyone else simply because the only worthwhile content is raids. Those days are over, fortunately.

  16. #316
    The problem with parallel progression paths is they all merge together into a single progression path, where you have to do all the parts or you fall behind.

    Only if the reward from each part is suitable just for that part does this not become a problem.
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  17. #317
    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    You say that's an answer but it's really not. There's pvp and raiding, pick one or do both. Gearing isn't that hard, it just takes time. Bring back the Justice, Valor and Conquest points (though i think they're already bringing those back, unsure in what form and how they'll work) and let people buy the pieces of gear they want by grinding out points so they don't have to play the loot lottery. It's not that hard, it's just that Ion and the people under him have made it that way.
    When I talked about it being answering, that was to direct you to Advent's post, you misread/misinterpreted my post, Advent corrected your misunderstanding/reading of the post.

    However, I mean, there is this thing called mythic+...your post seems confused, you say there's pvp and raiding, as if that is it, as if mythic+ isn't a thing, you are posting in a thread about mythic+ and post as if it doesn't exist. Whether you want to acknowledge it is real, or whether you think it is ok or not doesn't change the objective, observable and demonstrable fact that it is in the game.

    Its purpose it clearly as an alternative/supplement to raiding. Just because you don't think such a thing should exist doesn't therefore mean that mythic+ doesn't, or isn't serving this purpose, doesn't mean that it isn't. People who might have been trying to get involved in raiding, but are employed and maybe have families and struggle with the time commitments of a full on raiding guild now have an alternative, shorter content that is still challenging (sorry HC raiders, but I can't accept that HC raids are harder than high level mythic keys, with the exception of a few bosses the real challenge is just getting a team together and the potential time sink for a run/logistics of keeping a larger group together, which is not the same as challenging content) and has rewards based on that challenge.

    You might not agree with this alternative/supplementary content (depending on how you play the game), but it is real and its intentions are clear. You don't need to like this, by all means come up with alternatives/justifications for scrapping it, but don't talk as if it isn't real just because you don't like it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gelannerai View Post


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  18. #318
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    When the discussion is the speed at which you can gear up from M+ vs Mythic raiding, yes it does matter. Especially considering that a lot of the azerite from the raid actually has the best traits on it.
    Discussion is awesome but as you have obviously skipped what the issue is please stop .

    It's a joke because you don't need to raid.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  19. #319
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    Discussion is awesome but as you have obviously skipped what the issue is please stop .

    It's a joke because you don't need to raid.
    And you don't NEED to play the game. You don't NEED to do M+.

    Like, what is this suppose to prove?
    You could get 470 gear with corruption each week from the 5 mask vision run. Does that suddenly mean it isn't worth running M+?

    Did you really feel the need to revive a discussion from a week ago to tell someone to "please stop" when it isn't a discussion anymore, just to not even make a point?

    You never "needed" to raid. Raiding Mythic is suppose to be about the challenge, not just getting loot like some of you seem to care far too much about.

  20. #320
    Those last 5 ilvl you can get from clearing mythic are huge. Especially the 485 rings and the 490 azerite pieces.

    Together with the BIS traits you simply can not get elsewhere and the better itemization of the loot this makes for a significant difference.

    But keep telling yourself that you can get equivalent or better gear from purely doing m+.

    Sure you can farm faster for certain stats when wanting multiple gearsets or for things like leech/avoidance etc.

    But pure BIS is still coming from mythic raids

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